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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1433 --------------
001 - Per =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hallst - Is anybody there?
002 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Is anybody there?
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From: Per =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hallstr=F6m?= (Per.Hallstrom work.utfors.se)
Subject: Is anybody there?
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:58:59 +0200
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In-Reply-To: (199908301943.MAA17707 lists1.best.com)
Hello....
have I lost contact with the waldorf-critics lists.best.com or is everybody
just taking a brake? I have had no messages from the list since monday
30/8. Though i have not contributed for some time, I¥m still an interested
lurker and would like to continue like that for the time being.
It takes all sorts....
best regards
Per Hallstr–m
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From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Is anybody there?
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:50:22 +0100
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References: (199908301943.MAA17707 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199909021346.GAA29896 lists1.best.com)
Hi Per,
We are here. Feel free to begin a new discussion. Busy days...
Deby
)Hello....
)
)have I lost contact with the waldorf-critics lists.best.com or is everybody
)just taking a brake?
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1433 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1434 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
002 - jdaar concentric.net - Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
004 - Andy Walter (andreas_walt - Re: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Waldorf Critics Site
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Hi - from a former Waldorf Parent
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - critical article about Waldorf in Swiss paper (in German)
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - [anon] Thank God something is being done
010 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: [anon] Thank God something is being done
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From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:21:25 -0700
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PLANS has acquired a copy of *Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie: Rudolf Steiners
okkult-rassistische Weltanschauung* by Guido & Michael Grandt. I think that
would translate "Black Book of Anthroposophy: Rudolf Steiner's
Occult-Racist World-View." I believe that the sale of this book was banned
in Europe by a court order resulting from a suit by Anthroposophists.
Herman, if you're there, can you fill us in on that story?
Here's the back jacket blurb:
"Rudolf Steiner ist der Begr¸nder der Anthroposophie. Nach der von ihm ins
Leben gerufenen Waldorfp”dagogik werden in Deutschland und ÷sterreich heute
fast 80 000 Kinder unterrichtet. Beide, die Anthroposophie und die
Waldorfschulen, haben in der ÷ffentlichkeit einen guten Ruf. Einen sehr
guten Ruf. Doch dieser gute Ruf besteht zu Unrecht, behaupten Guido und
Michael Grandt. Denn Rudolf Steiner war Okkultist, Rassist und auþerdem
leitendes Metglied eines sexualmagischen Geheimordens. Und siene obskure
Weltanschauung wirkt bis heute nach--auch in den Waldorfschulen. Nach
diesem Buch m¸ssen die Anthroposophen Farbe bekennen und die Politiker sich
¸berlegen, ob sie weiterhin mit Steuergeldern die Waldorf-Einrichtungen
unterst¸tzen wollen."
Wish I read German!
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1434.2 ---------------
From: jdaar concentric.net
Subject: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 23:55:56 -0700
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References: (199909050520.WAA04378 lists1.best.com)
Jane Rice speaks and writes fluent German. Do you want to forward it to
her. I'm pretty sure that she would not mind translating a paragraph.
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) PLANS has acquired a copy of *Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie: Rudolf Steiners
) okkult-rassistische Weltanschauung* by Guido & Michael Grandt. I think that
) would translate "Black Book of Anthroposophy: Rudolf Steiner's
) Occult-Racist World-View." I believe that the sale of this book was banned
) in Europe by a court order resulting from a suit by Anthroposophists.
) Herman, if you're there, can you fill us in on that story?
)
) Here's the back jacket blurb:
)
) "Rudolf Steiner ist der Begr¸nder der Anthroposophie. Nach der von ihm ins
) Leben gerufenen Waldorfp”dagogik werden in Deutschland und ÷sterreich heute
) fast 80 000 Kinder unterrichtet. Beide, die Anthroposophie und die
) Waldorfschulen, haben in der ÷ffentlichkeit einen guten Ruf. Einen sehr
) guten Ruf. Doch dieser gute Ruf besteht zu Unrecht, behaupten Guido und
) Michael Grandt. Denn Rudolf Steiner war Okkultist, Rassist und auþerdem
) leitendes Metglied eines sexualmagischen Geheimordens. Und siene obskure
) Weltanschauung wirkt bis heute nach--auch in den Waldorfschulen. Nach
) diesem Buch m¸ssen die Anthroposophen Farbe bekennen und die Politiker sich
) ¸berlegen, ob sie weiterhin mit Steuergeldern die Waldorf-Einrichtungen
) unterst¸tzen wollen."
)
) Wish I read German!
)
) -Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1434.4 ---------------
From: Andy Walter (andreas_walter go.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 08:31:05 -0700 (PDT)
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This book contains a lot valuable information, which you may find very useful to back up your case with evidence. I commend it to you. Also don't bother too much about why this book has been banned in Germany; German court rulings are sometimes strange anyhow.
BTW the blurp translates freely about as follows:
*Rudolf Steiner is the founder of anthroposophy. Almost 80000 children in Germany and Austria are being educated by Waldorf pedagogy, which he has created. Both antroposophy and waldorf pedagogy have a good public reputation. Indeed a very good reputation. However Guido and Michel Grandt say that this reputation is not for good reson, because Rudolf Steiner was an occultist, racist and moreover a leading member of a sexual magick occult order. His bizarre world view continues to live on, even in waldorf schools. After this book anthropops must show color and politicians must re-think if waldorf institutions deserve continuing public support with tax-money.*
My 2 cents worth for this...
AW
---jdaar concentric.net
wrote:---
)Jane Rice speaks and writes fluent German. Do you want to forward it to
)her. I'm pretty sure that she would not mind translating a paragraph.
)
)Dan Dugan wrote:
))
)) PLANS has acquired a copy of *Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie: Rudolf Steiners
)) okkult-rassistische Weltanschauung* by Guido & Michael Grandt. I think that
)) would translate "Black Book of Anthroposophy: Rudolf Steiner's
)) Occult-Racist World-View." I believe that the sale of this book was banned
)) in Europe by a court order resulting from a suit by Anthroposophists.
)) Herman, if you're there, can you fill us in on that story?
))
)) Here's the back jacket blurb:
))
)) "Rudolf Steiner ist der Begr¸nder der Anthroposophie. Nach der von ihm ins
)) Leben gerufenen Waldorfp”dagogik werden in Deutschland und ÷sterreich heute
)) fast 80 000 Kinder unterrichtet. Beide, die Anthroposophie und die
)) Waldorfschulen, haben in der ÷ffentlichkeit einen guten Ruf. Einen sehr
)) guten Ruf. Doch dieser gute Ruf besteht zu Unrecht, behaupten Guido und
)) Michael Grandt. Denn Rudolf Steiner war Okkultist, Rassist und auþerdem
)) leitendes Metglied eines sexualmagischen Geheimordens. Und siene obskure
)) Weltanschauung wirkt bis heute nach--auch in den Waldorfschulen. Nach
)) diesem Buch m¸ssen die Anthroposophen Farbe bekennen und die Politiker sich
)) ¸berlegen, ob sie weiterhin mit Steuergeldern die Waldorf-Einrichtungen
)) unterst¸tzen wollen."
))
)) Wish I read German!
))
)) -Dan Dugan
________________________________________________________ ____
Get your Free GO Network Email address at http://mail.go.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1434.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 10:51:51 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199909051535.IAA07159 lists1.best.com)
Andy Walter, thanks for the translation!
)*Rudolf Steiner is the founder of anthroposophy. Almost 80000 children in
)Germany and Austria are being educated by Waldorf pedagogy, which he has
)created. Both antroposophy and waldorf pedagogy have a good public
)reputation. Indeed a very good reputation. However Guido and Michel Grandt
)say that this reputation is not for good reson, because Rudolf Steiner was
)an occultist, racist and moreover a leading member of a sexual magick
)occult order. His bizarre world view continues to live on, even in waldorf
)schools. After this book anthropops must show color and politicians must
)re-think if waldorf institutions deserve continuing public support with
)tax-money.*
Does "show color" correspond to the English idiom "show their colors,"
meaning to identify oneself openly?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1434.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Critics Site
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 12:05:38 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (37C388BC.F5896950 pobox.alaska.net)
[Reply to a message posted from a visitor to our web site. -dD-]
Dear Tom (tliv pobox.alaska.net), thanks for your opinion.
)Dan,
)I think you are full of crap. You have stretched the bounds of
)criticism beyond logical limits and greatly exaggerated any rational
)criticism of Waldorf education through numerous deceptive distortions.
)It would serve your cause (gee, is your cause a religion? GOD FORBID!)
)better to edit out the cheap distortions and illogical conclusions.
)I just thought you might want to know that your credibility as a Waldorf
)critic is zip. You and PLANS make too many leaps of faith (sorry 'bout
)the pun...) to be taken seriously.
)Cheers, Tom
What I read above tells me you don't like my attitude, but you make no
substantial rebuttal to what we say on the web site.
Regarding religion, the board of PLANS includes people of mainstream
religions, evangelical Christians, and secular humanists.
)PS: Did you know that federal money goes to sectarian universities in
)the form of paying tuition via the GI Bill and numerous other programs?
)Also, federal medicare/medicaid payments go to sectarian owned health
)care providers? Golly Darn!
Yes, but there are rules that prohibit these institutions from including
sectarian religious content in the services they provide, and "pervasively
sectarian" institutions like Rudolf Steiner College may not receive federal
funds.
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
Secretary, PLANS
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1434.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Hi - from a former Waldorf Parent
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 12:04:56 -0700
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[The following reply to a private message is posted by permission.--Dan Dugan]
Patti, you wrote,
)Dear Dan Dugan,
)
) I am a former Waldorf parent - my son attended Waldorf School from first
)grade. Six weeks before the end of seventh grade, he refused to go to
)school, and so I enrolled him in public school.
I hope he's happier there. May I borrow your son's lesson books for my
research?
) This will undoubtedly sound very strange, but I got the "ethereal"
)impression, on some "supersensible" level, that my son's spirit was in
)preparation for being devoured, and that I got him out of that school just
)barely in time. Thank God, I honored his refusal to return to that school.
)
) His teacher kept trying to convince me that my son's growing unhappiness
)in the class was somehow attributable to - my son, himself! However, I had
)witnessed how his teacher had expressed certain attitudes toward other
)students in the class over the years, and how the children had naturally
)reflected those attitudes, causing each student she focused her negative
)attentions on profound unhappiness. (My son, in fact, had ultimately been
)each of those students' only friend, even when the teacher's attitudes toward
)them in the classroom caused it to become "unpopular" to befriend them).
)
) My feeling about Waldorf education is that its ideals are good, but that
)its underlying philosophy is inherently diabolical. It is similar to
)Mormonism in effect, in that all the externals appear quite attractive and
)blameless, while the very foundation those externals are built upon is a lie.
) I have learned: any mortal who proposes to know all about the "spirit
)world" is to be avoided like the devil.
Yes, but I'd also include in that category Christians who claim that what
-they- want is "God's will."
)Jesus did not expound upon spiritual
)beings or Heavenly degrees. How can any mere mortal propose to know more?
)
) I feel the "spiritual knowledge" of Waldorf, as with Mormonism, merely
)offers a means of "one-upmanship" to the teacher/devotee, enabling them a
)"position of authority" that is presumed to be greater than that of the
)parents - because of this "profound greater knowledge." Once the family is
)drawn into the Waldorf realm, parents are thus encouraged to trust the
)teacher, believing the teacher "knows better" about the things of this realm.
) But one must "buy" that Rudolf Steiner had access to "supersensible"
)knowledge the same as one must buy that Joseph Smith found some magical
)golden plates....
I agree completely.
) Jesus simply taught that we should serve God. There is no mystical
)mumbo jumbo to that!
For Christians, perhaps. Others may have other opinions.
) I heartily agree with you that Waldorf philosophy, as with any other
)inherently satanic cult philosophy, does not belong in our schools.
Not in public schools. They're welcome to their private schools.
)However,
)I do feel that because our country was founded upon Christianity, any
)"separation between church and state" in regard to Christianity will only
)lead - and is already leading to a collapse of our institutions. This
)worries me.
) What is the purpose of education, if not to better serve God?
)
) Sincerely, Patti Morey
I'll disagree with you there. The founders of our country were wise enough
-not- to found it on Christianity, but upon the rights of the individual,
including the right to worship or not worship as the individual chooses.
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1434.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: critical article about Waldorf in Swiss paper (in German)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:16:54 -0700
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Weltwoche 6/98, 5.2.1998
Wie schlecht ausgebildete, dogmatische und ueberforderte Lehrer dem
Ruf der Rudolf-Steiner-Schulen schaden
Panzer und Gewehre in der schoenen heilen Welt
Fundamentalistische Stroemungen nehmen an den Steinerschulen ´in
erschreckendem Massª zu.´Es gibt Lehrer, die gnadenlos mobben und
gleichzeitig schoengeistige Vortraege halten.ª
Von Carin Diodý
Die Steinerschulen der Schweiz stecken in einer tiefen Krise: Die
Schulbeitraege der Eltern reichen nicht mehr aus, um die
Millionendefizite einzelner Schulen auszugleichen, die Schuelerzahlen
sind ruecklaeufig, und der fundamentalistische Kern der Lehrerschaft
zementiert mit seiner versteinerten Ideologie die gaengigen
Vorurteile, Anthroposophen seien weltfremde Sektierer.
1919 gruendete Anthroposoph Rudolf Steiner die erste Waldorfschule
fuer die Arbeiterkinder einer deutschen Zigarettenfabrik. Gepraegt von
den Idealen der Romantik und des Jugendstils, wollte Steiner, dass die
Kinder in einer heilen und beschuetzten Umgebung lernen, angstfrei und
ohne Notendruck. Nicht nur der Intellekt, sondern auch die
kuenstlerischen Faehigkeiten eines Kindes muessen gefoerdert werden,
lautete sein Credo. Neben Rollenspiel und Tanz bilden Maerchen,
Fabeln, biblische Erzaehlungen und griechische Mythen das Fundament
des Lehrplans. ´Meine Kinder besuchen die Steiner-schule, weil sie
dort ihre Begabungen entfalten und spaeter die Gesellschaft
menschlicher machen koennenª, erklaert der erste PR-Manager der
Steiner-schulen Schweiz, Robert Thomas.
Waehrend sich die Sproesslinge im Unterricht ganzheitlich entfalten
duerfen, vorausgesetzt, sie passen in das anthroposophische Weltbild
des Klassenlehrers, muessen sich ihre Eltern gefallen lassen, dass
Paedagogen ihnen die erzieherische Kompetenz absprechen und verlangen,
dass sie ihre Muendigkeit vor dem Eingang zur Steinerschule abgeben:
´Backen, basteln, blechen, solange die Eltern da brav mitmachen und
nicht aufmucken, ist die Steinerwelt in Ordnungª, erklaert die Mutter
Judith Zink.
Als ´geschuetzte Werkstatt fuer unfaehige Lehrerª bezeichnet Ehemann
Robert Zink die Steiner schule. Traurig und zornig erinnert er sich an
die Steinerschule Adliswil. Ðberzeugt von der anthroposophischen
Erziehung, wollte der Arzt seinen Soehnen mehr als normiertes
Leistungsdenken und materielles Wissen mitgeben und vertraute sie
Steinerlehrern an. Sein aeltester Sohn aber hatte Muehe, sich in der
schoenen, heilen und weltfremden Umgebung zurechtzufinden, und
rebellierte. In die pastellfarbene Harmonie malte der Bub mit
schwarzer Farbe Gewehre und Panzer, eine Provokation mit Folgen. Die
Klassenlehrerin gab ihm zu verstehen, er sei gestoert und in der
Gemeinschaft nicht laenger akzeptiert. Als ihn auch noch die
Mitschueler plagten, war der Elfjaehrige ueberfordert. ´Er kapselte
sich ab und war voellig verstoertª, erzaehlt seine Mutter.
Die Situation eskalierte, die moralische Verurteilung nicht nur des
aeltesten Sohnes, sondern der ganzen Familie war spuerbar, wurde aber
nicht offen ausgesprochen. Fuer Judith Zink war das Psychoterror.
Rueckblickend glaubt sie, dass die Lehrerin mit der selbstauferlegten
Moral ueberfordert war: ´Das ist die Kehrseite der Harmonie, in den
Steinerschulen herrschen oft unterschwellige Aggressionen.ª Die Eltern
suchten das Gespraech mit der Lehrerin, doch diese wich aus und
erklaerte den Eltern lediglich, ihr Sohn sei fehlentwickelt, denn sie
haetten bei seiner Erziehung klaeglich versagt. Schliesslich weigerte
sie sich, die Eltern ueberhaupt zu empfangen, und wartete einfach
darauf, dass sie den Sohn von der Schule naehmen.
´Sie schickte uns in die Wueste, wir sassen vor einer schwarzen Wandª,
erinnert sich Robert Zink. ´Wenn Eltern diskutieren wollen oder sich
kritisch aeussern, werden sie vom Tisch des heiligen Grals
verstossen.ª Der PR-Beauftragte Robert Thomas, der selbst an der
Plattenstrasse in Zuerich unterrichtet, bedauert, dass solche
Konflikte so haeufig vorkommen: ´Wir waren in der ungluecklichen
Situation, dass Klassenlehrer bei Problemen mit Eltern als Partei und
Richter in einer Person auftraten.ª Aufgeschreckt durch die immer
lauter werdende Kritik und deren Konsequenzen, ueben sich die
Steinerschulen in Schadensbegrenzung.
´Zur Sicherung der paedagogischen und schulischen Qualitaetª wurde ein
Gremium gegruendet, bestehend aus Eltern, Lehrern und
Vorstandsmitgliedern der Schule. Nach anderthalb Jahren Aufbauarbeit
ist das Gremium inzwischen an sechs der siebenunddreissig
Steinerschulen eingefuehrt.
Auch der juengere Sohn der Familie Zink, der bis zu diesem Zeitpunkt
keine Probleme in der Schule hatte, musste buessen: Nach einer
Konferenz stellte sich der Klassenlehrer vor den Zweitklaessler und
warnte ihn: ´Wenn du nicht aufpasst, geht es dir wie deinem Bruder.ª
Fuer die Mutter, selbst ehemalige Steinerschuelerin und ueberzeugte
Anthroposophin, brach eine Welt zusammen. Heute zweifelt sie an dem
starren Schulsystem, das fuer sie nur noch wenig mit Steiners
Paedagogik zu tun hat. Um so mehr, als sie sieht, dass ihr aeltester
Sohn, der heute eine oeffentliche Sekundarschule besucht, keine
Probleme mehr hat.
´Wenn die Steinerschule so weitermacht, schaufelt sie sich ihr eigenes
Grabª, prophezeit die Architektin und Mutter Gertrud Bauer*. Sie
kaempft seit Jahren fuer einen offenen Dialog und wuenscht sich
kritikfaehige Lehrer: Die engagierte Mutter wagt nicht, mit ihrem
richtigen Namen aufzutreten, weil sie ihre Kinder schuetzen will. Sie
befuerchtet, mit ihrer Kritik gewisse Lehrer zu veraergern, deren Zorn
dann die Kinder anstatt sie selbst treffen wuerde. ´Allein in Adliswil
kenne ich fuenf Familien, die ihre Kinder aus der Schule nehmen
mussten, weil die Lehrer unfaehig sind, sich Konflikten zu stellenª,
erzaehlt Robert Zink und fragt sich, wie eine private Schule sich das
leisten kann. Auch Gertrud Bauer kennt dies nur zu gut: ´Es laeuft
wirklich so: Ploetzlich verschwinden Kinder von der Schule, meist kurz
vor den Sommerferien.ª Robert Thomas findet es grundsaetzlich falsch,
wenn ein Kind kurzfristig und ohne Vorgespraeche die Schule verlassen
muss, bezweifelt aber, dass ein Rausschmiss wirklich so ablaeuft: ´Oft
erinnern sich die Eltern einfach nicht mehr an die Vorgespraeche.ª
Wiederholt weigerten sich Lehrer, mit Gertrud Bauer ueber ihre
Anliegen zu diskutieren, doch sie will nicht klein beigeben -
weiterhin glaubt sie an das urspruengliche Prinzip Steiner, allen
Schwierigkeiten zum Trotz. Sie bedauert, dass Eltern, die ihre Kinder
aus der Schule nehmen muessen, nur die Faust in der Tasche machen. Sie
fordert sie auf, die Mauer des Schweigens zu durchbrechen und
erstarrte Anthroposophen wachzuruetteln, auch wenn es sehr viel
Energie kostet.
Die Primarlehrerin Johanna Brunner* wollte ihr Verstaendnis von
anthroposophischer Paedagogik ins verstaubte Anthroposophenstuebchen
tragen und im Unterricht umsetzen. Doch ihr Engagement war nicht
gefragt: Die Intrigen des Lehrerkollegiums wurden unertraeglich. Heute
unterrichtet die staatlich ausgebildete Lehrerin wieder an einer
oeffentlichen Schule und ist entsetzt, was Lehrer im Namen Steiners
anrichten:
´Das Kernproblem ist die fundamentalistische Stroemung, die an
Steinerschulen in erschreckendem Mass zunimmt.ª Es gebe Lehrer, die
gnadenlos mobben und gleichzeitig schoengeistige Vortraege halten.
´Diese Anthroposophen verbarrikadieren sich, wollen die Realitaet
nicht sehen und handeln im Widerspruch zu Steiner.ª
Fuer Brunner sind es unsichere Menschen, die hartnaeckig die
Weiterentwicklung der Welt achtzig Jahre nach Steiner ignorieren. Sie
beten dem Gruender nach, blaettern verzweifelt in seinen Schriften und
erheben ihn ins Dogmatische, was Steiner nie beabsichtigt hatte. Auf
der krampfhaften Suche nach einer Stuetze werden sie
fundamentalistisch: ´Wenn dann jemand kommt und die Haltegriffe
abschrauben will, ist er ein Ketzer.ª
Der PR-Beauftragte Robert Thomas spricht von hohen Idealen und
Anspruechen Steiners, denen Anthroposophen nur durch selbstaendiges
Denken gerecht werden koennen: ´Ist das nicht der Fall, haben wir es
mit Dogmatik zu tun, das war aber bei Gandhis Lehre genauso.ª
In jeder Steinerschule gibt es einen inneren Kern, dem etwa zehn
Prozent der Lehrer angehoeren. ´Dieser Kern besitzt eine unglaubliche
Macht, obwohl gemaess Statuten alle Lehrer gleichberechtigt sindª,
weiss Brunner. Zu diesem Kern gehoert man als Sohn oder Neffe eines
Schulgruenders oder wenn die Mutter Steiner noch persoenlich kannte.
Es existiert eine Art Adelshierarchie, und wenn es einer aus dem
Fussvolk versteht, dem Clan zuzudienen, wird er, wenn er Glueck hat,
in den erlauchten Kreis aufgenommen, ansonsten einfach ausgenuetzt.
Steiners Vision beim Aufbau der Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft war
aber gerade eine Gemeinschaft, in der nicht Hierarchien zaehlen,
sondern die Beziehung gleichwertiger Menschen, die gemeinsam nach
geistiger Erkenntnis streben. Doch der innere Kern beansprucht Macht
und Wahrheit fuer sich. Wer nicht spurt, muss gehen. ´Waehrend meiner
Steinerschulzeit wurde die Haelfte des Kollegiums ausgewechselt, und
ich behaupte, achtzig bis neunzig Prozent wurden vom inneren Kern
gemobbtª, so Brunner. Meist trifft es junge, engagierte Lehrer, die es
wagen, die selbsternannten Hohepriester des Systems zu kritisieren.
Doch schlecht ausgebildete Lehrer ohne Matura muessen kuschen, denn
ihre Existenz haengt von der Schule ab:
´Es ist tragisch, sie sind wie Sklaven, denn in der Privatwirtschaft
haben sie keine Chance und als Lehrer ausserhalb der Steinerschule
schon gar nicht.ª Auch Robert Zink zweifelt an der Kompetenz gewisser
Lehrer und beschwert sich: ´Es fehlt jede Transparenz ueber die
Lehrerausbildung. Als ich nachfragte, erhielt ich keine Antwort.ª
Waehrend Primarlehrer, die an oeffentlichen Schulen unterrichten
wollen, nach der Matura eine dreijaehrige Seminarausbildung vorweisen
muessen, besitzen viele Steinerschullehrer im besten Fall ein Diplom
auf anthroposophischer Stufe. Andere Lehrer haben lediglich einen
Abendkurs intern in einer Steinerschule absolviert. ´Doch die Kantone
tolerieren, dass solche Lehrer unterrichtenª, erklaert Johanna
Brunner.
Heftig widerspricht Robert Thomas dem Vorwurf, diese interne
Schmalspur-Ausbildung genuege nicht, denn ausschlaggebend seien die
kuenstlerischen Faehigkeiten eines Lehrers, und nicht allein
intellektuelle und handwerkliche Begabung. Und die Erziehungsdirektion
des Kantons Zuerich begruendet ihre liberale Haltung gegenueber den
Steinerschulen mit dem Argument, diese setzten andere thematische
Schwerpunkte als die oeffentlichen Schulen. Deshalb sei es nur
logisch, dass die Lehrkraefte diesen Beduerfnissen entsprechend
ausgebildet wuerden.
Inzwischen gibt es eine Alternative zur Steinerschule: Sie befindet
sich in der Aufbauphase und wird diesen Fruehling in Zuerich offiziell
eroeffnet. Der Sekundarlehrer Hanspeter Diboky, ueberzeugt von
Steiners Paedagogik, unterrichtete sieben Jahre an einer
Steinerschule, weil er an eine Reform glaubte. Doch auch er biss sich
am fundamentalistischen Kern die Zaehne aus. Er zog die Konsequenzen
und gruendete die Delta-Primar- und -Sekundarschule. Der Unterricht
wird auf die individuellen Beduerfnisse der Schueler abgestimmt, so
dass auch Hochbegabte ihren Weg gehen koennen. Die Schule enthaelt den
Impuls Steiners, will aber keine weitere anthroposophische
Missionsstation sein.
* Namen von der Redaktion geaendert
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1434.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: [anon] Thank God something is being done
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 18:31:36 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Dan,
Thanks so much for the site which I have only just found. I am an ex pupil
based in England who spent twelve years at a Steiner School and so much of
what you have here makes sense.
I would also like to here from anyone who has any information about abuse,
both sexual, physical and verbal. I was witness to a lot of sexual abuse
and victim of physical and verbal abuse myself. The ethos passed down to
us was that this was part of our karma.
I have too many dead, alcoholic and drug dependent school mates to feel
that we were left untainted by this school. As with all groups that create
victims, the victims are the last too be heard.
(snip)
The other thing is there is a book by Charlotte Rudolf pub.1991
"Waldorferziehung Wege zur Versteinerung" which I understand was a prime
reason for the German government pulling its funding of the schools in
Germany. I cannot read it myself, (12 years of german at a Steiner School
does not equip me in any way to speak or read german) and wondered whether
anyone you knew had read it or was in the process of translating it.
Once again thrilled to fnd your site
If you want to post this feel free but if you could drop my name and the
details regarding ... as am in a pretty strong line of fire at the moment
from those who feel I am just being "bitter"
[name withheld]
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1434.10 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: [anon] Thank God something is being done
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:12:06 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199909060133.SAA29312 lists1.best.com)
)Dear Dan,
)
)Thanks so much for the site which I have only just found. I am an ex pupil
)based in England who spent twelve years at a Steiner School and so much of
)what you have here makes sense.
This student has been coresponding with me privately. It is a sad story of
a whole group of students.
Deby
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1434 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1435 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Atlantic article discussion online
002 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: [anon] Thank God something is being done
003 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: [anon] Thank God something is being done
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
005 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: [anon] Thank God something is being done
006 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Re: [anon] Thank God something is being done
007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Atlantic article discussion online
008 - Christian Czachary (chris - Artikle from last week
009 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - RE: Atlantic article discussion online
010 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Artikle from last week
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1435.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 22:33:59 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Todd Oppenheimer's long-winded Waldorf puff-piece is on the web at:
http://www.theatlantic.com/cgi-bin/o/issues/99sep/9909waldorf.htm
If you click on "post and riposte" in the top section, and register, you
can get into The Atlantic's web board discussion about the article. There's
already a glowing post from a defender of the faith, and a reply from me.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1435.2 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: [anon] Thank God something is being done
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 03:18:30 EDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Dan - I'd love to communicate with the person who wrote you this letter!
My son was terribly verbally abused in his class, as were others. Also,
another parent pointed out just the other day how our children remember
nothing of the German they'd learned. Wonder why?
Could you please give this person my e-mail address and let them know I'd
love to share experiences with them? I'm sure it would comfort them, and it
would help give more perspective on what my son must have been experiencing,
as well.
Thanks! Sincerely, Patti Morey
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1435.3 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: [anon] Thank God something is being done
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 03:38:09 EDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Deby!
Could you please give this person my e-mail address? My son was
terribly verbally abused in his class too, as were many of the students. I
heard that the teacher cussed and yelled at them all. Sincerely, Patti Morey
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1435.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 00:17:07 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199909051535.IAA07159 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199909051751.KAA22466 lists1.best.com)
My friend Jane Rice (not on the list) contributed this:
In case you haven't already received a response to this question:
yes, Farbe bekennen does mean to show your colors. Otherwise I
wouldn't quibble very much with Andy Walter's (a German, I
assume?) translation, except perhaps the following sentence:
"However Guido and Michael Grandt claim that this good reputation
is unjustified." And Geheimorden is usually translated fairly
literally as "secret order."
-posted by Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1435.5 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: [anon] Thank God something is being done
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 00:56:34 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199909060721.AAA01608 lists1.best.com)
)Hi Dan - I'd love to communicate with the person who wrote you this letter!
)My son was terribly verbally abused in his class, as were others. Also,
)another parent pointed out just the other day how our children remember
)nothing of the German they'd learned. Wonder why?
)
)Could you please give this person my e-mail address and let them know I'd
)love to share experiences with them? I'm sure it would comfort them, and it
)would help give more perspective on what my son must have been experiencing,
)as well.
)
)Thanks! Sincerely, Patti Morey
I'll do that. I will forward your post. Thanks for speaking up.
(Kanefer aol.com)
Debra Snell
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1435.6 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Re: [anon] Thank God something is being done
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 01:00:42 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199909060739.AAA07373 lists1.best.com)
)Hi Deby!
) Could you please give this person my e-mail address? My son was
)terribly verbally abused in his class too, as were many of the students. I
)heard that the teacher cussed and yelled at them all. Sincerely, Patti Morey
I did. Thanks for your concern and help.
_ds
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1435.7 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 06:16:40 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="windows-1252"
[Dan Dugan]
)
) Todd Oppenheimer's long-winded Waldorf puff-piece is on the web at:
[Bob Tolz]
It must be so frustrating for PLANS to see articles in major
magazines applauding Waldorf Education.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1435.8 ---------------
From: Christian Czachary (christian gammaresearch.com)
Subject: Artikle from last week
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:22:06 -0500
I found this in my mail:
CLINTON SUPPORTS BAN ON CREATIONISM
EDGARTOWN, Mass., Aug. 27 (UPI) - The White House said (Friday) that
President Clinton, while generally favoring the right of school boards
to set curriculum, accepts the 1987 Supreme Court ruling that schools
are not free to teach creationism. White House press secretary Joe
Lockhart was asked for Clinton's position one day after Vice President
Al Gore refused to take a clear stand on whether public schools should
be required to teach evolution rather than creationism.
But isn't the evolution theory just another kind of belief in creation by chance?
Christian Czachary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1435.9 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:08:59 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199909061011.DAA14857 lists1.best.com)
)[Bob Tolz]
) It must be so frustrating for PLANS to see articles in major
)magazines applauding Waldorf Education.
We're used to it. (g)
Deby
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1435.10 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Artikle from last week
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:05:08 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
In-Reply-To: (199909061325.GAA00481 lists1.best.com)
On 6 Sep 99,, Christian Czachary wrote:
) But isn't the evolution theory just another kind of belief in creation
) by chance?
Uh, no. I'd explain the difference, but I don't have time to teach you
right now. There are lots of web sites that can help you get a
better grounding in basic biology, though.
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1435 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1436 --------------
001 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: Artikle from last week
002 - Christian Czachary (chris - Re: Artikle from last week
003 - "Duane Koons" (dkoons gun - Re: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1436.1 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Artikle from last week
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 02:50:20 EDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 6 Sep 99,, Christian Czachary wrote:
) But isn't the evolution theory just another kind of belief in creation
) by chance?
I feel that is an awesome insight. Evolution theory is definitely a
"creation theory" -- similar to how atheism is another kind of belief
pertaining to God
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1436.2 ---------------
From: Christian Czachary (christian gammaresearch.com)
Subject: Re: Artikle from last week
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:12:31 -0500
We have always to be very careful whom we believe or what we believe.
If someone tries to make you believe something, there is always an
interest. Especially concerning children the interest is very high, because
they are the future of any civilisation. What mankind has proven in the
last 6000 years (before that there is "no records" about their philosophy)
is that man is not honest. So what are we doing then?
I believe, that the approach to be as neutral as possible in (state-)
schools is what would make sense, although the real problem here is the
definition of 'neutral', and in the praxis no teacher is really 'neutral'
concerning to his/her own belief.
"Science?
The reason why the galaxies are rushing away from ours is because they know
what is going on here."
Christian Czachary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1436.3 ---------------
From: "Duane Koons" (dkoons gundluth.org)
Subject: Re: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:46:12 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Please unsubscribe me. Thank you for your time and comments over the past few
months.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1436 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1437 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Re: Artikle from last week
002 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - Religious Doctrine and Scientific Knowledge
003 - AL (al textgenie.com) - How far have there been Waldorf changes in response to critici
004 - eddy (redfish mwt.net) - genetic safety?
005 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
006 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: How far have there been Waldorf changes in response to
c
007 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
008 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
009 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
010 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: Re: Artikle from last week
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1437.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Artikle from last week
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:04:31 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199909070651.XAA07900 lists1.best.com)
)On 6 Sep 99,, Christian Czachary wrote:
)
)) But isn't the evolution theory just another kind of belief in creation
)) by chance?
)
)I feel that is an awesome insight. Evolution theory is definitely a
)"creation theory" -- similar to how atheism is another kind of belief
)pertaining to God
I know cultural relativism, that claims every kind of knowledge is "just a
story," is popular at some universities, but there is really a big
difference between religious 'belief' and scientific 'belief.'
Religious doctrine is based on revelation from an unquestionable source.
Scientific knowledge is based on evidence, and is revised (or even
overthrown) when new evidence appears.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1437.2 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: Religious Doctrine and Scientific Knowledge
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:57:30 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
[Dan Dugan]
)
) Religious doctrine is based on revelation from an
) unquestionable source.
)
) Scientific knowledge is based on evidence, and is revised (or even
) overthrown) when new evidence appears.
)
[Bob Tolz]
I agree with your comments, Dan, but you're juxtaposing two
different things: doctrine and knowledge, so it's easy to contrast them and
diminish the religious side of the comparison. A better comparison would be
scientific knowledge against religious *knowledge* (as opposed to doctrine).
But I suppose you would dismiss the possibility that anything
involving religion could be based on knowledge which is revised as new
evidence appears. I know that our listmate (and PLANS expert witness) John
Morehead seems more comfortable relying on religious doctrine than on
exploring.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1437.3 ---------------
From: AL (al textgenie.com)
Subject: How far have there been Waldorf changes in response to criticism?
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:03:12 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (199909081905.MAA01079 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199909081905.MAA01079 lists1.best.com)
Ladies, Gentlemen, If I may:
I have just joined the list and have no access to previous
correspondence (though I would like to see the last six months worth,
if I knew how to apply for it).
I am trying to evaluate the current situation as far as Waldorf
teaching practice in North MAerica goes (and Europe, if available),
in order to nail down two questions:
Has there been any increase in separation between Waldorf teaching in
North America and Steiner's often fantastical scientific theories
since the mid-nineties, in response to critics and the raising of the
issue of separation of religion and education? Or is the situation
the same as it was when Dan Dugan first encountered it and observed
the seepage of anthroposophical theory into the classroom (or its
influence in keeping out teaching of conflicting ideas from modern
science)?
Secondly, to what extent could Waldorf teaching practices (those that
seem to prove out as beneficial in practice, insofar as that is
demonstrated) be separated from Steiner's anthroposophical creed and
still survive, and is this in fact the likely outcome of the
situation in the US?
I have been talking to Waldorf teachers and staff, and outside
consultants, and my impression so far is that the teachers typically
still feel they need it as inspiration, even if when pressed they
have to admit that much of the creed "boggles the mind", as one
senior teacher -- enthusiastic nonetheless -- put it to me.
It seems that they become so emotionally convinced of the
effectiveness of Steiner's influence and approach to education that
they become unable to resolve the conflict between common sense and
modern scientific proven fact (eg that the heart pumps the blood) and
Steiner's beliefs, and just brush the conflict aside with the
all-purpose rubric that Steiner's writings are "difficult" to fathom
but in the end will make sense with enough study.
Whatever the truth of that, I am trying to nail down what has
generally happened in the last five years. Many Waldorf people say
to me that the powers that be in the movement (whoever they are) and
the staff of its schools have realized that there is a need to
explain themselves better to the outside world than they have in the
past.
Has this also resulted in more of a separation between anthroposophy
and Waldorf teaching, or is the true situation the same as before? I
am interested in any evidence either way, or opinion.
Secondly, could they do it and still achieve the beneficial results
they claim and seem to achieve? I cannot see why those innovations
and practices could not be maintained entirely free of anthroposophy,
as Waldorf people have always claimed and as Steiner also publicly
ordained. But I do not know enough about actual classroom practice
since I have never seen it.
Looking forward to any reply,
Best regards,
Anthony L
Looking forward to your reply,
Best regards,
AL
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1437.4 ---------------
From: eddy (redfish mwt.net)
Subject: genetic safety?
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 07:21:20 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (199909081953.MAA08781 lists1.best.com)
dearest list...
perhaps this is some common ground here for the waring factions
in any case, it should prove good discussion.
i have not seen anything on GM foods here, in this forum.
i would love to read your opinions.
e
ps GM stands for Genetically Modified
B-GE: Cheaper to ban GM food from schools
Date:
Wed, 08 Sep 1999 13:02:03 +0000
From:
Jonathan (mail icsenglish.com)
To:
Ban gef (Ban-GEF lists.greenbuilder.com)
It seems from this PA news story that those local authorities who
haven't yet banned GM food from their school meals may live to regret
it! Cambridgeshire, incidentally, is a major centre of the biotech
industry in the UK. It's also where Axis, the GE firm that folded
yesterday, was based.
......................................................................................................................................................
A county council is set to ban GM food from school meals because of the
cost of implementing new European Union labelling rules.
Cambridgeshire County Council says it will now serve only non-GM food to
pupils in its 250 schools.
The new rules, due to come into effect in Britain later this month, say
food providers must label any food with a significant GM content.
Cambridgeshire says the cost and complexity of implementing the rules is
too great. Councillors are expected to approve the proposed ban later
this month.
`Labelling all foods which have a significant GM content is a very
difficult exercise when you're serving school meals,'' said a council
spokesman.
``Its not as simple as marking a label on a tin and we're not exactly
sure how we would have gone about implementing the rules.
`
`We've decided that the cost and the hassle of trying to implement the
regulations is just too great so we will now rely on our suppliers to
supply non-GM food.'
----
For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the Ban-GEF
list, send email to Ban-GEF lists.txinfinet.com with HELP in the SUBJECT
line.
----
footnote...
Genetically Modified Food Controversy -- NPR's Dan Charles reports on
the
controversy surrounding genetically altered foods. Last week food
processing giant Archer Daniels Midland Co. warned its grain suppliers
to
begin segregating genetically modified corn, soybeans and other crops
from
conventional crops. But foods that have been certified as
non-genetically
modified and genetically manipulated are coming from the same plant.
(5.10)
Ý
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1437.5 ---------------
From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 23:38:35 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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))) Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) - 9/6/99 5:08 AM )))
responds to
))[Bob Tolz]'s
writing that:
)) It must be so frustrating for PLANS to see articles in major
))magazines applauding Waldorf Education.
by saying that:
)We're used to it. (g)
...which suggests (to me, anyway) that repeated frustrations should reduce their import. My experience (on, say, oh, this list) contradicts that conclusion. But we scientists are always open to new evidence. Sign me: Sisyphus (Who Somehow Managed to Learn Some German in an American Waldorf School) /Michael Ronall
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1437.6 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: How far have there been Waldorf changes in response to
criticism?
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:47:16 EDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
It does seem like aspects of the Waldorf curriculum could be retained without
the anthroposophical basis, though the anthroposiphical basis provides the
rationale for much of the curriculum and the way it is presented. Still,
that rationale is so ethereal, surely a "down-to-earth" rationale for various
aspects of the curriculum could be found in standard literature on child
education. Sincerely, Patti Morey
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1437.7 ---------------
From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 00:15:09 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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))) (bhstudio frontiernet.net) - 9/5/99 10:46 AM )))
translates the )back jacket blurb( of )Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie( for us:
)" Rudolf Steiner is the founder of the Anthroposophie. After the
)Waldorfpaedagogik called by him in the life in Germany and Austria today
)almost 80,000 children are informed. Both, the Anthroposophie and the
)Rudolf Steiner Schools, have a good reputation a very good reputation in
)the public this good reputation exist nevertheless to injustice, maintain
)Guido and Michael Grandt.
)Because Rudolf Steiner was Okkultist, racingist and additionally leading
)Metglied of a sexualmagischen secret medal. And siene obskure world view
)has a lasting effect until today -- also in the Rudolf Steiner Schools.
)After this book the Anthroposophen must admit colour and consider itself
)the politicians whether they support the whale village mechanisms further
)with tax fundses. "
....which last clause finally explains to this Waldorf alumnus why we tenth-graders were forced to labor over Moby Dick. Where would I be without this list? /MRx
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1437.8 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:47:40 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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)))) Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) - 9/6/99 5:08 AM )))
))We're used to it. (g)
)
)...which suggests (to me, anyway) that repeated frustrations should reduce
)their import. My experience (on, say, oh, this list) contradicts that
)conclusion. But we scientists are always open to new evidence. Sign me:
)Sisyphus (Who Somehow Managed to Learn Some German in an American Waldorf
)School) /Michael Ronall
I'm still awaiting the judge's decision before I'm willing to admit our
"import" is reduced. Slavery was once popular too.
-ds
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1437.9 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:55:37 +0100
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In-Reply-To: (199909090419.VAA04328 lists1.best.com)
)))) (bhstudio frontiernet.net) - 9/5/99 10:46 AM )))
)....which last clause finally explains to this Waldorf alumnus why we
)tenth-graders were forced to labor over Moby Dick. Where would I be
)without this list? /MRx
Waldorf is more like 'Hansel and Grettle' than 'Mobey Dick'. I wonder why
they didn't tell _that_ story...
-ds
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1437.10 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Artikle from last week
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:52:44 EDT
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Don't think "Love your brother" and concepts of forgiveness could be regarded
as being based on revelation from unquestionable source, but these pertain to
Jesus' doctrine. Scientist might be less willing to love or to forgive
without evidence that he/she Should do so?
Sincerely, Patti
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1437 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1438 --------------
001 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
002 - Christian Czachary (chris - RE: Re: Artikle from last week
003 - AL (al textgenie.com) - Waldorf without Steiner
004 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Waldorf without Steiner
005 - AL (al textgenie.com) - RE: Waldorf without Steiner
006 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Waldorf without Steiner
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: genetic safety?
008 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - RE: Waldorf without Steiner
009 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Waldorf without Steiner
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1438.1 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:54:14 EDT
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I thought it was weird how my son's teacher would tell the little
first-graders fairy tales that included horrific acts - like one, where the
parents hack off their daughter's hands... It seemed to me that such fairy
tales had their relevance to times they arose from, speaking to unconscious
minds of those times; but that they were inappropriate for these more
civilized times.
For example, as a recess supervisor, I noted the change in jump-rope songs
with the changing times, i.e.:
old version, reflecting forced marriage of earlier (60's) era:
Cinderella, dressed in yella, went upstairs to kiss a fella
came back down in a wedding gown, how many children went to town?
one-two-three-etc...
new version, reflecting option of abortion:
Cinderella, dressed in yella, went upstairs to kiss a fella
made a mistake and kissed a snake
how many doctors did it take?
one-two-three-etc...
The first time, I had naturally begun singing the version I grew up with as I
turned the rope, and the kids all looked at me funny! The concept of forced
marriage is simply no longer wholly appropriate to these times - it doesn't
jibe right with the children's unconscious absorption of cultural norms and
values.
It's amazing how much children assimilate unconsciously through things such
as jump rope songs, isn't it? Wonder what that
"hacking-the-girl's-hands-off story did for the kids? Sincerely,
Patti
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1438.2 ---------------
From: Christian Czachary (christian gammaresearch.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Artikle from last week
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:35:52 -0500
)On 6 Sep 99,, Christian Czachary wrote:
)
)) But isn't the evolution theory just another kind of belief in creation
)) by chance?
Dan Dugan wrote:
I know cultural relativism, that claims every kind of knowledge is "just a
story," is popular at some universities, but there is really a big
difference between religious 'belief' and scientific 'belief.'
Religious doctrine is based on revelation from an unquestionable source.
Scientific knowledge is based on evidence, and is revised (or even
overthrown) when new evidence appears.
Christian comments:
Your text is true, this are different kinds of belief. However, this is not
contrary to my statement, because "just another kind of belief" is what you
call scientific 'belief' (vs. religious 'belief'). I think you
misinterpreted the word 'just' as "being (almost) the same in character or
value", instead I used this word rather to describe what you referred later
on to be able to be "revised (or even overthrown) when new evidence
appears", meaning there is no absolute assurance about the infallibility of
the evidence given.
There are many more things playing into this picture. E.g. the individual
perspective of a person, which claims to know something because he/she
'believes' that a certain scientist can (or could) prove a certain theory.
Even if the theory is proven by this scientist, the 'believer' has to rely
on the media, and/or on the word of this scientist, that it is so. (This is
the best case, normally someone decides to believe in something without
really examining the theory at all.)
So even if this person believes in something which is proven by a vast
background of evidence, his individual situation can be the same as of a
believer in another theory, even if the kind of belief is different.
Still he/she has to decide what to teach his or her children. And this
decision is made in 'good belief' in - let's say - 80% of the time? I
couldn't tell.
Christian
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1438.3 ---------------
From: AL (al textgenie.com)
Subject: Waldorf without Steiner
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 11:34:54 -0400
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In-Reply-To: (199909090345.UAA08832 lists1.best.com)
The day before yesterday, I asked this list whether there was a middle
ground where Waldorf teaching techniques could be applied without the
baggage of anthroposophy, and whether anyone discerned a shift towards this
position in Waldorf schools over the last five years.
Patti Morey was the only response I have received on the list. She wrote:
)It does seem like aspects of the Waldorf curriculum could be retained without
)the anthroposophical basis, though the anthroposiphical basis provides the
)rationale for much of the curriculum and the way it is presented. Still,
)that rationale is so ethereal, surely a "down-to-earth" rationale for various
)aspects of the curriculum could be found in standard literature on child
)education. Sincerely, Patti Morey
This seems a very sensible comment.
Now I have been contacted by someone who claims that this topic is not
allowed on this list, but that there has been much work independent of
Waldorf (eg at San Diego University) on applying the techniques without the
ideology. Is this true? That this topic is not allowed on this list?
If it is, does anyone have any comment on this middle ground approach? My
correspondent claims that it is being obscured by the battle between PLANS
and Waldorf, and that the PLANS site contains inaccuracies. But these
inaccuracies are not specified.
Looking forward to any reply,
Regards,
AL
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1438.4 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Waldorf without Steiner
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:15:32 -0400
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[Al wrote]
) Now I have been contacted by someone who claims that this
) topic is not
) allowed on this list, but that there has been much work
) independent of
) Waldorf (eg at San Diego University) on applying the
) techniques without the
) ideology. Is this true? That this topic is not allowed on this list?
The topic has frequently been discussed on this list in the past,
without any admonition by the list moderator.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1438.5 ---------------
From: AL (al textgenie.com)
Subject: RE: Waldorf without Steiner
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:25:25 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199909091611.JAA11657 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199909091611.JAA11657 lists1.best.com)
)
) The topic has frequently been discussed on this list in the past,
)without any admonition by the list moderator.
)
) Bob Tolz
How does one read past posts on this list?
Anthony L
Looking forward to your reply,
Best regards,
AL
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1438.6 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Waldorf without Steiner
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:55:13 -0400
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[Anthony L]
)
) How does one read past posts on this list?
)
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/archives/../archives.html is the
index page for the archives. Posts are up through July 1999 at this moment.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1438.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: genetic safety?
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:07:24 -0700
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References: (199909081953.MAA08781 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199909082339.QAA08291 lists1.best.com)
Please drop this thread, it is off-topic for this list.
-Dan Dugan
moderator
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1438.8 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: RE: Waldorf without Steiner
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:30:17 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199909091611.JAA11657 lists1.best.com)
(199909091611.JAA11657 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199909091825.LAA06828 lists1.best.com)
Hi Anthony,
Welcome to the list - we've been very busy lately and the list has grown
quiet. You can access past posts from PLANS web site at
http://www.waldorfcritics.org .
What spurs your interest in Waldorf education? Are you a prospective or
current Waldorf parent? Tell us a bit about you.
Debra Snell
)
)How does one read past posts on this list?
)
)Anthony L
)
)Looking forward to your reply,
)Best regards,
)AL
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1438.9 ---------------
From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 18:24:31 -0400
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)))) Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) - 9/8/99 4:47 PM )))
cites:
))))) Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) - 9/6/99 5:08 AM )))'s
having written:
)))We're used to it. (g)
and my subsequent:
))...which suggests (to me, anyway) that repeated frustrations should reduce
))their import. My experience (on, say, oh, this list) contradicts that
))conclusion. But we scientists are always open to new evidence. Sign me:
))Sisyphus (Who Somehow Managed to Learn Some German in an American Waldorf
))School) /Michael Ronall
now followed by Debra's:
)I'm still awaiting the judge's decision before I'm willing to admit our
)"import" is reduced. Slavery was once popular too.
********
No, no. Not _your_ import. Rather, _frustration's_ import on, say, _you_, or on any frustrated agent. But let it pass, let it pass. /MRx
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1438.10 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf without Steiner
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:48:10 -0700
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References: (199909090345.UAA08832 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199909091539.IAA22549 lists1.best.com)
AL, you wrote,
)Now I have been contacted by someone who claims that this topic is not
)allowed on this list, but that there has been much work independent of
)Waldorf (eg at San Diego University) on applying the techniques without the
)ideology. Is this true? That this topic is not allowed on this list?
Sounds like David Mollet, a subscriber here who can speak for himself. His
post about that appeared here August 9, but he said on The Atlantic
discussion board that it and another had been blocked. waldorf-critics is
unmoderated. I have no prior control over what is posted and have never
blocked a posting. Maybe Mollet's second message got lost, and he assumed,
incorrectly, that he had been censored.
If anyone has trouble posting, they should contact me directly and I will
solve the problem.
)If it is, does anyone have any comment on this middle ground approach? My
)correspondent claims that it is being obscured by the battle between PLANS
)and Waldorf, and that the PLANS site contains inaccuracies. But these
)inaccuracies are not specified.
I'm sure the controversy is damaging David Mollet's business (publishing
Waldorf curriculum). Whether or not Mollet's curriculum is the answer to
non-Anthroposophical Waldorf I don't know, I haven't seen it.
Unfortunately, the Waldorf movement has been lying about the
Anthroposophical content of the education for 75 years. This makes it
impossible for anyone else to come along and make the same claims of no
Anthroposophy and be believed. Also almost all the resource materials
(excepting Mollet's, for courtesy but without firm knowledge) and all the
teacher training schools are Anthroposophical, so any attempt at
non-Anthroposophical Waldorf seems seriously handicapped. Better to start
over!
-Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1438 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1439 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: How far have there been Waldorf changes in response to
cr
002 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
003 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: How far have there been Waldorf changes in response
004 - AL (al textgenie.com) - Re: Re: How far have there been Waldorf changes in response
005 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Waldorf without Steiner
006 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
007 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Steiner's "heart doesn't pump blood" thing
008 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Where's Waldorf? (Was: Re: RE: Waldorf without Steiner)
009 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Steiner's "heart doesn't pump blood" thing
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1439.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: How far have there been Waldorf changes in response to
criticism?
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:51:35 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199909081905.MAA01079 lists1.best.com)
(199909081905.MAA01079 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199909082105.OAA28376 lists1.best.com)
Anthony L, you asked,
)Has there been any increase in separation between Waldorf teaching in
)North America and Steiner's often fantastical scientific theories
)since the mid-nineties, in response to critics and the raising of the
)issue of separation of religion and education? Or is the situation
)the same as it was when Dan Dugan first encountered it and observed
)the seepage of anthroposophical theory into the classroom (or its
)influence in keeping out teaching of conflicting ideas from modern
)science)?
I have recently purchased some newly published Waldorf science teaching
guides, and they are as Anthroposophical as ever.
)Secondly, to what extent could Waldorf teaching practices (those that
)seem to prove out as beneficial in practice, insofar as that is
)demonstrated) be separated from Steiner's anthroposophical creed and
)still survive, and is this in fact the likely outcome of the
)situation in the US?
Certainly there are some good ideas in Waldorf that can be used outside of
the system. I think the likely outcome will be the general recognition that
Waldorf is a religiously-based system and inappropriate for public schools.
The tensions between Steiner dogmatism and independent thinking in private
Waldorf schools will likely continue.
)I have been talking to Waldorf teachers and staff, and outside
)consultants, and my impression so far is that the teachers typically
)still feel they need it as inspiration, even if when pressed they
)have to admit that much of the creed "boggles the mind", as one
)senior teacher -- enthusiastic nonetheless -- put it to me.
)
) It seems that they become so emotionally convinced of the
)effectiveness of Steiner's influence and approach to education that
)they become unable to resolve the conflict between common sense and
)modern scientific proven fact (eg that the heart pumps the blood) and
)Steiner's beliefs, and just brush the conflict aside with the
)all-purpose rubric that Steiner's writings are "difficult" to fathom
)but in the end will make sense with enough study.
Yes, this is the behavior I call cult-like. It's the only "rational" way to
handle an absurd system, to compartmentalize it and avoid challenging it.
)Whatever the truth of that, I am trying to nail down what has
)generally happened in the last five years. Many Waldorf people say
)to me that the powers that be in the movement (whoever they are) and
)the staff of its schools have realized that there is a need to
)explain themselves better to the outside world than they have in the
)past.
)
)Has this also resulted in more of a separation between anthroposophy
)and Waldorf teaching, or is the true situation the same as before? I
)am interested in any evidence either way, or opinion.
What has happened in the last five years has been that dialogue has opened
up a lot within the Waldorf world. An article critical of Waldorf was
published in "Renewal," the Waldorf magazine. It was, of course, thoroughly
rebutted by defenders of the faith, and the editor cut off debate by
summarizing rather than printing the letters received. Critical attitudes
are now appearing on the official Waldorf discussion list (the SJU list)
that would have been suppressed by banning of the posters a year ago. This
opening up is bound to have an effect. There could be a split between
dogmatic Waldorf and "New Waldorf," but the latter remains undefined.
)Secondly, could they do it and still achieve the beneficial results
)they claim and seem to achieve?
The claimed results are not substantiated. I'm sure the benefits of Waldorf
will show up in the graduates, along with the harm, but there just haven't
been studies (beyond the suppressed 1981 German study) to tell us what the
grads are like.
)I cannot see why those innovations
)and practices could not be maintained entirely free of anthroposophy,
)as Waldorf people have always claimed and as Steiner also publicly
)ordained. But I do not know enough about actual classroom practice
)since I have never seen it.
Steiner ordained publicly that there was to be no Anthroposophy in the
lessons, but told his teachers privately to make them as Anthroposophical
as possible. Actual classroom practice varies from teacher to teacher. The
resource materials, with the possible exception of Mollet's, are
Anthroposophical.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1439.2 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 01:40:50 EDT
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I freaked out a little yesterday when my son's former Waldorf teacher called
at 7:30 a.m. to wish Chris well for his first day of high school. Another
parent told me the teacher had called her daughter, too, and that she felt it
was sweet. But I was concerned it invoked the dark times just as he made
this important step.
Patti Morey
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1439.3 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: How far have there been Waldorf changes in response
tocriticism?
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 03:34:49 EDT
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Hi, well, what do anthroposophists think the heart does if not to pump blood?
I've never heard about this one..
Patti
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1439.4 ---------------
From: AL (al textgenie.com)
Subject: Re: Re: How far have there been Waldorf changes in response
tocriticism?
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 04:06:49 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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)Hi, well, what do anthroposophists think the heart does if not to pump bloo=
d?
) I've never heard about this one..
) Patti
My source for that statement is Are Rudolf Steiner's Waldorf Schools=20
`Non-Sectarian'?
Dan Dugan and Judy Daar
=A9 Free Inquiry, Spring 1994 (Vol. 14 No. 2),
at the PLANS site http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/Free_Inquiry.html
The paragraph reads: "Any knowledge that conflicts with Steiner's=20
eccentric doctrines is simply omitted. Steiner taught that the heart=20
doesn't pump blood, so although Waldorf students may draw beautiful=20
diagrams of the human circulatory system, they will never learn how=20
it works. He taught that light is pure spirit, and that Newton was=20
wrong: light cannot be divided into colors. Waldorf graduates are=20
unlikely to have a clear notion of the electromagnetic spectrum,=20
despite having taken physics in both grammar and high schools."
I wonder what the source of that statement is, since I haven't come=20
across it yet in my readings of Steiner's books. It seems unlikely=20
that Steiner wrote it, for the reason you imply. Also, I suspect=20
that the statement about color is a misreporting of Goethe's theory=20
of light, which Steiner followed, but I have not checked and I wait=20
to be corrected by Dan Dugan.
Looking forward to your reply,
Best regards,
AL
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(excerpt)Hi, well, what do anthroposophists think the heart does if not
to pump blood?=20
I've never heard about this one..
Patti
(/excerpt)
My source for that statement is (bold)Are Rudolf Steiner's Waldorf
Schools `Non-Sectarian'?=20
Dan Dugan and Judy Daar=20
(/bold)=A9 (italic)Free Inquiry(/italic), Spring 1994 (Vol. 14 No. 2),=20
at the PLANS site
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/Free_Inquiry.html
The paragraph reads: (bigger)"Any knowledge that conflicts with
Steiner's eccentric doctrines is simply omitted. Steiner taught that
the heart doesn't pump blood, so although Waldorf students may draw
beautiful diagrams of the human circulatory system, they will never
learn how it works. He taught that light is pure spirit, and that
Newton was wrong: light cannot be divided into colors. Waldorf
graduates are unlikely to have a clear notion of the electromagnetic
spectrum, despite having taken physics in both grammar and high
schools."
I wonder what the source of that statement is, since I haven't come
across it yet in my readings of Steiner's books. It seems unlikely that
Steiner wrote it, for the reason you imply. Also, I suspect that the
statement about color is a misreporting of Goethe's theory of light,
which Steiner followed, but I have not checked and I wait to be
corrected by Dan Dugan.
Looking forward to your reply,
Best regards,
AL
(/bigger)
--============_-1275168075==_ma============--
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1439.5 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Waldorf without Steiner
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 06:36:27 -0400
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[Dan Dugan]
) This makes it
) impossible for anyone else to come along and make the same
) claims of no
) Anthroposophy and be believed.
Correction. You left out a few words. The following words should
be appended at the end of the sentence: "by Dan Dugan."
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1439.6 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 06:39:33 -0400
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[Patti Morey]
)
) I freaked out a little yesterday when my son's former Waldorf
) teacher called
) at 7:30 a.m. to wish Chris well for his first day of high
) school. Another
) parent told me the teacher had called her daughter, too, and
) that she felt it
) was sweet. But I was concerned it invoked the dark times
) just as he made
) this important step.
Remind me not to send you a holiday greeting card for fear it may be
misconstrued.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1439.7 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Steiner's "heart doesn't pump blood" thing
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:01:08 EDT
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thanks Al!
wonder what he thought the heart does, or how he figured the blood coursed
through the body...
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1439.8 ---------------
From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: Where's Waldorf? (Was: Re: RE: Waldorf without Steiner)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:08:03 -0400
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))) "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM) - 9/10/99 6:36 AM )))
notes that:
)[Dan Dugan]
holds that:
)) This makes it
)) impossible for anyone else to come along and make the same
)) claims of no
)) Anthroposophy and be believed.
and Bob Tolz appends his:
) Correction. You left out a few words. The following words should
)be appended at the end of the sentence: "by Dan Dugan."
...to which William Blake presciently suggests that:
"Truth cannot be told so as to be understood and not be believed." /MRx
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1439.9 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner's "heart doesn't pump blood" thing
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:20:55 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199909102203.PAA18097 lists1.best.com)
On 10 Sep 99, at 18:01, Kanefer aol.com wrote:
) wonder what he thought the heart does, or how he figured the
) blood coursed through the body...
As I understand it, Steiner believed that blood is a "spirit
substance" that only takes material form on leaving the body, and
moves through the body by itself. The heart has a role in regulating
it, as well as a role in thinking and feeling.
But I have not read Steiner, so perhaps someone with more knowledge
of Anthroposophy could better answer your question.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1439 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1440 --------------
001 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: Steiner's "heart doesn't pump blood" thing
002 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: RE: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
003 - "Brian Maxwell" (bmax uli - Re: Artikle from last week
004 - "Brian Maxwell" (bmax uli - Re: Artikle from last week
005 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: Artikle from last week
006 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Premo flamed? Amazing.
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - the heart is not a pump
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - [Rosie] RE: Thank God something is being done
009 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: the heart is not a pump
010 - GypsyArdor aol.com - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1439
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1440.1 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Steiner's "heart doesn't pump blood" thing
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:08:37 EDT
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thank you for a very interesting reply, Steve. It is interesting to consider
bodily functions from perspective other than "science." however strongly I
feel against anthroposophy. thank you very much. Sincerely, Patti Morey
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1440.2 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:30:39 EDT
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gosh Bob, as long as you don't call me at 7:30 in the morning to convey your
holiday greeting, that's fine!!!!
a holiday greeting card is one thing, but a telephone call from a former
teacher at 7:30 in the morning on child's first day of high school is
something else.
I do think a card - or even a phone call the afternoon/evening before,
would have been much more appropriate.
it felt intrusive to me when she called that early am, intruding upon our
busy hurried morning, upon our consciousness of new beginning, and it made me
wonder why she had chosen that particular time to call. Sincerely, Patti
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1440.3 ---------------
From: "Brian Maxwell" (bmax ulink.net)
Subject: Re: Artikle from last week
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:23:43 -0700
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References: (199909070215.TAA05847 lists1.best.com)
I think this thread of creation vs. evolution doesn't really belong on this
list, so out of respect I won't go on and on. I'm still so ticked from
reading Mr. Premo's comment that below that I just had to write and say that
there are LOTS of scientists and even university instructors who have strong
evidence opposing the theory of evolution, and strong evidence in favor of a
recent creation. For him to imply that Mr. Czachary needs to learn more
about biology, was ignorant and uncalled for.
I have sat under the teaching of some of these university professors, and I
have also read many books which prove the arguments against evolution and in
favor of creation overwhelming. These scientists I am referring to are not
similar to Steiner with his method of deleting whatever part of science
disagrees with his own beliefs. They have sought to look at the evidence
honestly and deal with it.
Anyone who would like to continue this discussion privately, my e-mail is
Bmax ulink.net. I can recommend books to read or free articles over the
internet written by my dad (who is a creationist scientist, and holds a
degree in Physics from UCLA).
I
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Artikle from last week
) On 6 Sep 99,, Christian Czachary wrote:
)
) ) But isn't the evolution theory just another kind of belief in creation
) ) by chance?
)
) Uh, no. I'd explain the difference, but I don't have time to teach you
) right now. There are lots of web sites that can help you get a
) better grounding in basic biology, though.
)
) Steve Premo
) Santa Cruz, California
) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1440.4 ---------------
From: "Brian Maxwell" (bmax ulink.net)
Subject: Re: Artikle from last week
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:40:20 -0700
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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References: (199909070215.TAA05847 lists1.best.com) (199909110421.VAA16611 lists1.best.com)
Oops, I forgot to sign my name on the e-mail I just sent.
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Maxwell (bmax ulink.net)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: Artikle from last week
) I think this thread of creation vs. evolution doesn't really belong on
this
) list, so out of respect I won't go on and on. I'm still so ticked from
) reading Mr. Premo's comment that below that I just had to write and say
that
) there are LOTS of scientists and even university instructors who have
strong
) evidence opposing the theory of evolution, and strong evidence in favor of
a
) recent creation. For him to imply that Mr. Czachary needs to learn more
) about biology, was ignorant and uncalled for.
)
) I have sat under the teaching of some of these university professors, and
I
) have also read many books which prove the arguments against evolution and
in
) favor of creation overwhelming. These scientists I am referring to are
not
) similar to Steiner with his method of deleting whatever part of science
) disagrees with his own beliefs. They have sought to look at the evidence
) honestly and deal with it.
)
) Anyone who would like to continue this discussion privately, my e-mail is
) Bmax ulink.net. I can recommend books to read or free articles over the
) internet written by my dad (who is a creationist scientist, and holds a
) degree in Physics from UCLA).
Sincerely,
Christine Maxwell
)
) I
) ----- Original Message -----
) From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
) To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
) Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 7:05 PM
) Subject: Re: Artikle from last week
)
)
) ) On 6 Sep 99,, Christian Czachary wrote:
) )
) ) ) But isn't the evolution theory just another kind of belief in creation
) ) ) by chance?
) )
) ) Uh, no. I'd explain the difference, but I don't have time to teach you
) ) right now. There are lots of web sites that can help you get a
) ) better grounding in basic biology, though.
) )
) ) Steve Premo
) ) Santa Cruz, California
) ) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1440.5 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Artikle from last week
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 01:32:20 EDT
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Brian, you are a dear.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1440.6 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Premo flamed? Amazing.
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:48:34 +0100
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199909070215.TAA05847 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199909110421.VAA16611 lists1.best.com)
Whoa! This may be the first time in the history of the WC list that Steve
Premo has been flamed. Welcome to the club, Steve. Apparently, you've
crossed over the line. Still, I assume your good will.
Deby
)I think this thread of creation vs. evolution doesn't really belong on this
)list, so out of respect I won't go on and on. I'm still so ticked from
)reading Mr. Premo's comment that below that I just had to write and say that
)there are LOTS of scientists and even university instructors who have strong
)evidence opposing the theory of evolution, and strong evidence in favor of a
)recent creation. For him to imply that Mr. Czachary needs to learn more
)about biology, was ignorant and uncalled for.
)
)I have sat under the teaching of some of these university professors, and I
)have also read many books which prove the arguments against evolution and in
)favor of creation overwhelming. These scientists I am referring to are not
)similar to Steiner with his method of deleting whatever part of science
)disagrees with his own beliefs. They have sought to look at the evidence
)honestly and deal with it.
)
)Anyone who would like to continue this discussion privately, my e-mail is
)Bmax ulink.net. I can recommend books to read or free articles over the
)internet written by my dad (who is a creationist scientist, and holds a
)degree in Physics from UCLA).
)
)I
)----- Original Message -----
)From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
)To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
)Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 7:05 PM
)Subject: Re: Artikle from last week
)
)
)) On 6 Sep 99,, Christian Czachary wrote:
))
)) ) But isn't the evolution theory just another kind of belief in creation
)) ) by chance?
))
)) Uh, no. I'd explain the difference, but I don't have time to teach you
)) right now. There are lots of web sites that can help you get a
)) better grounding in basic biology, though.
))
)) Steve Premo
)) Santa Cruz, California
)) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1440.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: the heart is not a pump
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 01:37:37 -0700
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References: (199909100735.AAA10954 lists1.best.com)
(199909100735.AAA10954 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199909100807.BAA23281 lists1.best.com)
))Hi, well, what do anthroposophists think the heart does if not to pump blood?
))I've never heard about this one..
)) Patti
"Naturally, people began to think that the heart is really a pump that
mechanically pumps the blood through the body, because they no longer knew
that our inner fluids have their own life and therefore move on their own.
They never dreamed that the heart is only a sense organ that checks on the
circulation of the fluids in its own way."
[Steiner, Rudolf. The Origins of Natural Science. (1922) Trans. Maria St.
Goar, Ed. Norman Macbeth. Spring Valley: Anthroposophic Press, 1985 p.
112.]
"Blood is really a "very special fluid." For it is the fluid which would
whirl away as spirit if we were able to remove it from the human body so
that it still remained blood and was not destroyed by other physical
agencies--an impossibility while it is bound to earthly conditions."
[Steiner, Rudolf. Study of Man: General Education Course: Fourteen Lectures
given by Rudolf Steiner in Stuttgart 21st August-5th September 1919.
(1919) Trans. Daphne Harwood and Helen Fox. London: Rudolf Steiner Press,
1960 p. 34. This is one of the basic books in teacher training, and the
above quote was given in a handout to public school teachers in training at
Rudolf Steiner College.]
"The heart is not a pump, however, but only indicates what goes on in the
body: the heart beats faster when the blood circulates faster."
[Steiner, Rudolf. Health and Illness: Volume 2 : Nine Lectures to the
Workmen at the Goetheanum, Dornach, Switzerland, 1922-23. Trans. Maria St.
Goar, Ed. Gilbert Church and Alice Wulsin. Spring Valley: Anthroposophic
Press, 1983 pp. 75-76.]
Lest someone say that these statements are old stuff that nobody pays
attention to any more:
"What is the greater significance of the heart? Pfeiffer sees it and
explains it as an etheric organ, an inner sun. Its motion reflects the
expansion and contraction of the cosmos itself. It doesn't "pump" blood as
we normally think, but etherizes it."
[Mercury Press Catalog 1995, p. 20]
And then there's the "current scientific research that proves Steiner was
right":
"The impact of spending billions of dollars on cardiovascular research
using an erroneous premise is enormous. In relation to this, the efforts to
construct a satisfactory artificial heart have yet to bear fruit. Within
the confines of contemporaray biological and medical thinking, the
propulsive force of the blood remains a mystery. If the heart really does
not furnish the blood with the total motive force, where is the source of
the auxiliary force and what is its nature? The answer to those questions
will foster a new level of understanding of the phenomena of life in the
biological sciences and enable physicians to rediscover the human being
which, all too often, many feel they have lost."
[Marinelli, Ralph, Branko F¸rst, Hoyte van der Zee, Andrew McGinn, William
Marinelli. "The Heart is not a Pump: A Refutation of the Pressure
Propulsion Premise of Heart Function." Center for Frontier Sciences:
Frontier Perspectives Vol. 5 No. 1 (Fall/Winter, 1995), p. 1.]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1440.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: [Rosie] RE: Thank God something is being done
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 01:14:33 -0700
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[The Waldorf schools will tell you about their famous and successful
graduates. We hear about the disasters. See the following anonymous posting
from "Rosie" -Dan Dugan]
[...] Can only have access to this on weekends so maybe a bit of a delay on
replies. Would rather use your notice board at present as there is a lot
happening this end and I would prefer not to have to worry about any
Anthros (as we call them here) getting into direct debate. Anything they
have to say to me can be said in open. Please, also any other victims,
either parents, ex teachers or especially children, speak out.
I have had so much telephone air time in the last week from survivors of
this absurd and nasty education. One letter from a man whose daughter was
sexually abused by a teacher named Stan Price (now dead) in 1982 when she
was seven. He is so angry and feels so helpless as his daughter is self
mutilating, in and out of hospital and generally broken. Stan was known by
me to be sexually abusing little girls for sure in 1975. We suspected he
was doing the same to little boys as well. This had been going on since he
joined in the late 1960's. Any queries were dismissed, put down, isolated
with the implication that the victim had somehow deserved it.
Five days before this letter a phone call from Canada. She was two years
older than me and had had full sexual relations with a teacher (he is still
alive and I know his name) at 15, attempted rape by another (he is still
alive and I know him also). She thought she was the only one, spent years
curled up on her fathers floor unable to do anything. Years later she is
finally getting her life together but still cannot stand up and speak out.
I personally had a main lesson teacher for eight years. I used to try and
count the days I DID NOT get beaten. One term there were no days. I was
humiliated verbally, described as a mess, slow and stupid. I was
dyslexic. He died a few years ago much respected, I wanted to incinerate
his grave.
I learnt to read at 7 because I begged the local state school children on
the bus to teach me. I was sneered at for being too smart, told I was a
classic 'melancholic' who needed to see life through rose tinted glasses.
I had 12 years of German and French and do not speak either. My math's has
been saved my some private tuition as an adult and my modern history ends
in 1600. My understanding of basic biology is from medical instruction
pamphlets. I cannot draw, either artistically or technically. My writing
is illegible and when I type the grammar and sentence structure is
'creative'.
I am sick to death of hearing about what personalities we Steiner children
are, how creative and full of self confidence. There are borstals where
the same claim could be made. The 'personalities' have a gallows humour,
the creativity is that of the criminal, that of a surveyor, and the self
confidence is 'bravado'. There are so may of those, whom I went to school
with who are totally broken people. Wandering the streets or country side
babbling at the sky, one is in a permanent mental institution, another two
committed suicide. Another pregnant at 16 to escape another teacher who
had been having sex with her since she was 14 is now working in the local
foodmarket, barely surviving after her "Caring and expensive education.
Giving her such a rounded education."
Another did get a professorship, after many minor breakdowns. He now lives
in self exile in another country a hopeless alcoholic virtually living on
the street. Another lives in a tent in another country, unable to deal
with 'ordinary' people.
I want to scream their names and the potential I know was there. I want to
tell everyone what great people they were. But I feel restrained, as how
can I out a victim who is trying to hard to forget?
Whether it is the Steiner philosophy, or the people it attracts, the wrong
horoscopes, I don't know. But this must be aired to get sorted and made
healthy. My experience is that this never gets aired, but hidden and the
abuser just blames the victim.
I have been plugging away speaking to anyone who shows an interest, and
have finally got the ear of the BBC, not an infallible media I know. I
intend to give them all the help I can to research and debate what has been
going on for decades.
If a system believes that we inherit our Karma and that all bad things are
what we chose in a previous life, fair enough. But there is not place for
this in education of children. The belief might be there,as we know racism
is often there, but any sign that it is being acted out should be nipped in
the bud. There is no way this should be an alibi for raping a small child,
beating anyone for anything and actively preventing them from learning.
Steiner school have a reputation, created by themselves for nurturing and
caring. A third parent is another description I have heard. This is so
totally the opposite from my experience. So many children came from
'dysfunctional' homes. Parents either knew they needed help and hoped the
school was the answer or needed an alibi for their own behavior and the
school gave them that.
I am passionate in this area, and would like to hear from others but please
could we keep this anonymous and on the notice board. Maybe to give me a
name I will call myself 'Rosie'
Thanks again for giving me this opportunity to air my views
Rosie
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1440.9 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: the heart is not a pump
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 05:29:53 EDT
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"The heart is not a pump, however, but only indicates what goes on in the
body: the heart beats faster when the blood circulates faster."
this is kind of interesting, to think of blood circulating faster as a
condition of the spirit, the spirit's being "quickened." Yet, steiner's
thought seems to reflect facist-like Supremacy of Human Being-type thinking,
while even a little mouse has a heart - and blood.
Patti Morey
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1440.10 ---------------
From: GypsyArdor aol.com
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1439
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 08:34:16 EDT
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Patti--
)From what I've heard and read, no matter how "dark" things were for your
child, the teacher takes his/her job seriously and truly cares for each
child. So, by him/her calling I would say it was a very positive
thing...he/she truly cares for your child and genuinely wanted to wish him
well.
--Wendi
) I freaked out a little yesterday when my son's former Waldorf teacher
called
) at 7:30 a.m. to wish Chris well for his first day of high school. Another
) parent told me the teacher had called her daughter, too, and that she felt
) it
) was sweet. But I was concerned it invoked the dark times just as he made
) this important step.
)
) Patti Morey
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1440 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1441 --------------
001 - GypsyArdor aol.com - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1439
002 - GypsyArdor aol.com - Re: Rosie's Post
003 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: Rosie's Post
004 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: RE: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
005 - David McKay (mckay oro.ne - Re: Rosie's Post
006 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Rosie's Post
007 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: RE: RE: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
008 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: Rosie's Post
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1441.1 ---------------
From: GypsyArdor aol.com
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1439
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 08:40:13 EDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Aren't there studies being conducted now that show the heart also acts as a
second "brain" in some ways? That memories are stored in the muscle, as well
as in other parts of the body?
Before you say it's just a bunch of quacks doing the study or something like
that remember that at one time the folks who were calling the earth round
were considered quacks as well. ;-)
--Wendi
) As I understand it, Steiner believed that blood is a "spirit
) substance" that only takes material form on leaving the body, and
) moves through the body by itself. The heart has a role in regulating
) it, as well as a role in thinking and feeling.
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1441.2 ---------------
From: GypsyArdor aol.com
Subject: Re: Rosie's Post
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 11:42:20 EDT
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I read Rosie's post and kept thinking...what makes this strictly a Waldorf
problem? I went to public schools and even a Catholic school and there was
much abuse...physical, emotional, sexual. All the problems that have been
stated cannot be simply assigned as a product of the WE. I know many people
who have developed into individuals with problems...large and small. I know
some who committed suicide, some who fled the country, some who live as
hermits, some who are addicted to some sort of illegal substance, some who
just barely get by in life, and others who shine like beacons to say: "Hey! I
went through all that bullshit in life too and I am here to say I make my own
happiness."
I don't doubt that these things happened in a Waldorf school, I do doubt,
however, that it was because of Steiner's beliefs, and the WE in general,
that these things happened.
--Wendi
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1441.3 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Rosie's Post
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 14:53:45 EDT
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I agree - anyone can have bad school experience anywhere, or turn out on
fringes of society. Yet, because Waldorf education does shun many cultural
things valued by majority - computers, television, etc., they already exist
on the fringes of modern society.
)From that fringes stance, they claim their graduates go on to become
"successful" in modern society. Automatically, a conflict is suggested.
Patti Morey
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1441.4 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: RE: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:11:40 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="windows-1252"
[Patti wrote]
) a holiday greeting card is one thing, but a telephone call
) from a former
) teacher at 7:30 in the morning on child's first day of high school is
) something else.
)
) I do think a card - or even a phone call the
) afternoon/evening before,
) would have been much more appropriate.
[Bob Tolz]
I agree that a card or a call the preceding afternoon would have
been nicer.
[Patti]
) beginning, and it made me
) wonder why she had chosen that particular time to call.
[Bob Tolz]
Maybe the former teacher is like me. When I think about someone to
call them, it's usually when I'm not near a phone. And when I'm near a
phone, I don't remember. So, I'm trying to establish the habit of making
myself get to a phone immediately when I think of the person. It could be
that your child's former teacher thought of you and your family at 7:30 that
morning and wanted to call then and there, lest the call never be made.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1441.5 ---------------
From: David McKay (mckay oro.net)
Subject: Re: Rosie's Post
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:06:22 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199909111543.IAA02171 lists1.best.com)
The difference is how this kind of sick behaviour is condoned in W.E. by
the common practice of protecting the teacher and by saying it was meant to
be, etc. What you and Patti have left out is mentioned in Rosies post
several times: "This had been going on since he joined in the late 1960's.
Any queries were dismissed, put down, isolated with the implication that
the victim had somehow deserved it.", "He died a few years ago much
respected,", "My experience is that this never gets aired, but hidden and
the abuser just blames the victim.", "If a system believes that we inherit
our Karma and that all bad things are what we chose in a previous life,
fair enough. But there is not place for this in education of children.",
"There is no way this should be an alibi for raping a small child, beating
anyone for anything and actively preventing them from learning.".
This very same thing happened at two different WE schools, one in Oregon
and one in this area of No. Ca. The teacher was protected for years and
in fact the College of Teachers in Oregon helped this teacher leave the
area and got him the job in this areas WE school were years later the law
caught up to him!
I have not yet seen a public school system offer this kind of
protection/cover-up. It is taken care of in a very fast.
David McKay
)I read Rosie's post and kept thinking...what makes this strictly a Waldorf
)problem? I went to public schools and even a Catholic school and there was
)much abuse...physical, emotional, sexual. All the problems that have been
)stated cannot be simply assigned as a product of the WE. I know many people
)who have developed into individuals with problems...large and small. I know
)some who committed suicide, some who fled the country, some who live as
)hermits, some who are addicted to some sort of illegal substance, some who
)just barely get by in life, and others who shine like beacons to say: "Hey! I
)went through all that bullshit in life too and I am here to say I make my own
)happiness."
)
)I don't doubt that these things happened in a Waldorf school, I do doubt,
)however, that it was because of Steiner's beliefs, and the WE in general,
)that these things happened.
)
)--Wendi
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1441.6 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Rosie's Post
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:27:35 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199909111543.IAA02171 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199909120002.RAA03731 lists1.best.com)
)This very same thing happened at two different WE schools, one in Oregon
)and one in this area of No. Ca. The teacher was protected for years.
)In fact the College of Teachers in Oregon helped this teacher leave the
)area and got him the job in this area's WE school, where years later the law
)caught up to him!
In my son's Waldorf Kindergarten class, a classmate's big sister had this
very teacher. Shortly after his arrest, her mother was talking to several
other Mothers (including myself) about this incident . She was stunned ("He
was so nice!"), but admitted that her daughter had complained about his
inappropriate [sexual] behaviors towards the girls in her class. The Mother
said that she brought her daughter's concerns up to another member of the
faculty, who basically said, "Girls of this age are attracted to their
teachers. This fantasy is normal." This Mother said she never gave her
daughter's concerns another thought because she totally respected the
faculty member she spoke with. "How *do* you know when to take kids
seriously?", she quipped.
)I have not yet seen a public school system offer this kind of
)protection/cover-up. It is taken care of very fast.
Yep. In public school, it would be _instant_ karma for that teacher.
Deby
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1441.7 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 01:44:08 EDT
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Hi Bob,
You have a nice way to look at it :-)
I would have felt happier about the teacher's call if she had been nicer to
him that last year he was in the class....
Sincerely, Patti
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1441.8 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Rosie's Post
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 02:34:30 EDT
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Dear David McKay,
hi, could you please tell me the name of the Oregon teacher who was
involved? thank you so much, Sincerely, Patti Morey
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1441 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1442 --------------
001 - GypsyArdor aol.com - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
002 - GypsyArdor aol.com - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
003 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
004 - Christian Czachary (chris - RE: RE: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
005 - Christian Czachary (chris - RE: RE: RE: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
006 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: RE: RE: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
007 - Kanefer aol.com - thank you for your support
008 - David McKay (mckay oro.ne - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
009 - Kanefer aol.com - Atlantic Monthly Article on Waldorf
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1442.1 ---------------
From: GypsyArdor aol.com
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:34:11 EDT
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Sometimes coming from the "fringe" (which isn't always lunatic) allows one to
have a better view of what one is looking at...rather than being lost in the
center of things. Coming from the "outside" may allow one certain advantages
to see a better path to success. Maybe what you see as a confict is actually
an advantage at times?
--Wendi
) I agree - anyone can have bad school experience anywhere, or turn out on
) fringes of society. Yet, because Waldorf education does shun many
cultural
) things valued by majority - computers, television, etc., they already
exist
) on the fringes of modern society.
)
) From that fringes stance, they claim their graduates go on to become
) "successful" in modern society. Automatically, a conflict is suggested.
) Patti Morey
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1442.2 ---------------
From: GypsyArdor aol.com
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:49:55 EDT
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In a message dated 09/12/1999 9:15:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com writes:
)
) I have not yet seen a public school system offer this kind of
) protection/cover-up. It is taken care of in a very fast.
Well, you must not have gone to a public school in a very small town. The
school I went to was filled with teachers who abused students in many ways.
And the teachers were NOT dismissed (actually one was because he was with
"boys" and that just COULDN'T be accepted since a man with a boy was "wrong"
but a man with a girl was just the girl seducing the teacher). In fact, when
children complained about the teachers the parents many times would say
"yeah...he's just like that." "Everyone knows he's like that. He's a pig." If
you happened to be the parents of the girl, you would beat her for being a
tramp and sleeping with the teacher. And the conduct would either end or
continue in secret because the girl felt that she was in love with the
teacher.
When (years after I moved away from the area) a younger cousin of mine
mentioned sexual misconduct by a teacher who would fondle her and her
friends...I couldn't believe it was still going on. She said "yeah, everyone
hates him. He's a pig." I talked with her mother and she said, "yeah. he's a
pig. He's always been like that."
In small towns things do go on...and people do get away with things. And this
was a public school. The people of the community weren't calling it "karma"
but that's in essence what they were thinking...the girls were asking for it.
It's NOT a Waldorf thing...
--Wendi
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1442.3 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:54:42 EDT
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It is good to go outside the norm to gain fresh view of it, for sure. Jesus
went out to the wilderness as a young man, and came out a great teacher. But
to raise children outside society norm, and then claim they are successful
within it offers something to wonder about.
it is interesting that the Waldorf educators do not shun automobiles...
wonder how this is justified "anthroposophically"
Sincerely, Patti
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From: Christian Czachary (christian gammaresearch.com)
Subject: RE: RE: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:59:00 -0500
Patti wrote:
it is interesting that the Waldorf educators do not shun automobiles...
wonder how this is justified "anthroposophically"
Christian assumes that
"... The spirit is strong, but the flesh is weak!"
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1442.5 ---------------
From: Christian Czachary (christian gammaresearch.com)
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Re: RE: Atlantic article discussion online
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:54:15 -0500
a holiday greeting card is one thing, but a telephone call from a former
teacher at 7:30 in the morning on child's first day of high school is
something else.
I do think a card - or even a phone call the afternoon/evening before,
would have been much more appropriate.
it felt intrusive to me when she called that early am, intruding upon our
busy hurried morning, upon our consciousness of new beginning, and it made
me
wonder why she had chosen that particular time to call. Sincerely,
Patti
I would have felt the same way as you, Patti. I believe, a teacher (whether
anthroposophist or not) must keep a healthy distance to his/her pupils. As
the story went, I can't get the feeling away that this very teacher planned
to make you feel bad rather than to sincerly cares for your child.
Christian
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From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:55:41 EDT
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ha ha! :-)
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From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: thank you for your support
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:16:28 EDT
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Hi Christian,
You know, sometimes we sense things, but they are so delicate, we aren't
quite sure, and maybe they can be taken two ways. and then, when others
disagree with our delicate initial impression, we decide we might have
over-reacted or are seeing things that just aren't there. To have even just
one other person reaffirm what we so delicately first sensed is so very
reassuring. Thank you so much for letting me know that you felt the same
thing.
It had hit me so hard, but with the other responses, I was toward convincing
myself that it was just wrong interpretation even while licking my wounds.
Thank you so much.
Sincerely, Patti
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1442.8 ---------------
From: David McKay (mckay oro.net)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:43:14 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199909121551.IAA23184 lists1.best.com)
)In a message dated 09/12/1999 9:15:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
)waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com writes:
)
))
)) I have not yet seen a public school system offer this kind of
)) protection/cover-up. It is taken care of in a very fast.
)
)
)Well, you must not have gone to a public school in a very small town.
By the time I had graduated from the 12th grade I had been to 16 schools in
four states and 13 different cities/towns. At *all* of them if anything
like that came up it was taken care of promptly. I currently live in a
small town of 2,500 that has seven schools where my children have and are
currently going to. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this kind of
situation would not be allowed to go on in this community.
)The school I went to was filled with teachers who abused students in many
)ways.
)And the teachers were NOT dismissed (actually one was because he was with
)"boys" and that just COULDN'T be accepted since a man with a boy was "wrong"
)but a man with a girl was just the girl seducing the teacher). In fact, when
)children complained about the teachers the parents many times would say
)"yeah...he's just like that." "Everyone knows he's like that. He's a pig." If
Shame on this small towns parents for *allowing* this kind of reprehensible
behaviour to go on. If everyone knew then why were they condoning it by
not taking aggresive action in such a situation?
)you happened to be the parents of the girl, you would beat her for being a
)tramp and sleeping with the teacher. And the conduct would either end or
)continue in secret because the girl felt that she was in love with the
)teacher.
)
)When (years after I moved away from the area) a younger cousin of mine
)mentioned sexual misconduct by a teacher who would fondle her and her
)friends...I couldn't believe it was still going on. She said "yeah, everyone
)hates him. He's a pig." I talked with her mother and she said, "yeah. he's a
)pig. He's always been like that."
Why do people in this town just accept such behaviour? Why aren't they
taking responsibility for protecting their own children?
)
)In small towns things do go on...and people do get away with things. And this
)was a public school. The people of the community weren't calling it "karma"
)but that's in essence what they were thinking...the girls were asking for it.
)It's NOT a Waldorf thing...
No, it's blatant ignorant irresponsibility!!!
David McKay
)
)--Wendi
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1442.9 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Atlantic Monthly Article on Waldorf
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 03:26:35 EDT
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Hi, don't know if you've already discussed this article, I just found the
title while looking at the Atlantic Monthly website: "Do Waldorf Schools
Offer a Model For Education WorldWide?" It is in the September issue. Here
is the website address, and when you click on the Waldorf article, you'll
find you can also join a discussion group about it:
http://www.theatlantic.com/index-js.htm
Sincerely, Patti Morey
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1442 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1443 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: web counter 29,947
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
003 - GypsyArdor aol.com - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1442
004 - paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) - Waldorf and television
005 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - How quickly they forget (Was Re: Premo flamed? Amazing.)
006 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Waldorf and television
007 - Kanefer aol.com - Re: Re: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
008 - "Brian & Christine Maxwel - Re: How quickly they forget (Was Re: Premo flamed? Amazing.)
009 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Re: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
010 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Typo in Re: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1443.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: web counter 29,947
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:56:05 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On September 12, 1999, the PLANS web site had registered 29,947 visitors (not
hits, repeats on the same day are not counted) since August 12, 1996.
We had 1093 visitors in the last month, averaging 36 per day, up 20% from
the previous month.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1443.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1441
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:01:11 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199909121655.JAA15436 lists1.best.com)
) it is interesting that the Waldorf educators do not shun automobiles...
)wonder how this is justified "anthroposophically"
My understanding is that Ahriman is not a threat when you're fully aware of
his presence. If an Anthroposophist is thinking, "Ahriman, you're working
for me" when he or she starts the car, there's no problem.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1443.3 ---------------
From: GypsyArdor aol.com
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n1442
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:15:43 EDT
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In a message dated 09/13/1999 12:28:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com writes:
((
Why do people in this town just accept such behaviour? Why aren't they
taking responsibility for protecting their own children?
No, it's blatant ignorant irresponsibility!!!
David McKay
))
David--
I completely agree that the town had something wrong with it (the parents who
allowed things to continue--in addition to the teachers who were doing these
things) and that things should not have been allowed. It is obvious that it
was ignorant of the town to overlook such things and to not take
responsibility and correct the horrible acts that were happening. But it did
happen and that's why I mentioned it on this list...I don't feel that other
things that have been mentioned on the list can be attributed as a product of
Waldorf schools simply because they happened in a Waldorf school.
--Wendi
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1443.4 ---------------
From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
Subject: Waldorf and television
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:55:57 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In the eight years that I have been a Waldorf parent,
involved with three or four different schools, I have
heard, from a few different teachers (all kindergarten
or primary grade age teachers) a general message
against television and, to a lesser extent, computers,
for kindergarten and primary grade children.
I've never heard any Waldorf teacher or administrator
say you should eliminate TVs or computers from the
home. Lots of Waldorf schools have Web sites; many
Waldorf parents communicate via e-mail using
computers. Many school-related materials are produced
on Pcs and Macs.
The suggested ban or limit against TVs and computers
for young children is not some fantatical quirk of the
Waldorf curriculum--many parents who have never heard
of Waldorf ban or limit TV viewing in their homes.
TV can be an effective source of entertainment and
education for kids (and parents) but let's face--one
of the primary purposes of TV and videos is marketing,
through kids to parents. (I'm setting aside for now
the physiological changes that many parents notice in
their kids when and after their kids watch TV, even
for short periods of time.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1443.5 ---------------
From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: How quickly they forget (Was Re: Premo flamed? Amazing.)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:47:37 -0400
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))) Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) - 9/10/99 6:48 PM ))),
having read:
[snip]))I'm still so ticked from
))reading Mr. Premo's comment that below that I just had to write and say that
))there are LOTS of scientists and even university instructors who have strong
))evidence opposing the theory of evolution, and strong evidence in favor of a
))recent creation. For him to imply that Mr. Czachary needs to learn more
))about biology, was ignorant and uncalled for. [snap](
wrote:
)Whoa! This may be the first time in the history of the WC list that Steve
)Premo has been flamed. Welcome to the club, Steve. Apparently, you've
)crossed over the line. Still, I assume your good will.
...perhaps having overlooked among the dim mists of prehistory that once a upon a time:
)
)))) "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com) - 6/4/99 6:32 PM )))
)
)writes:
)
)On 4 Jun 99, at 15:20, Catherine Alexander wrote:
)
)) Ah, isn't it so refreshing to meet a spiritually enlightened male
)) chauvanist-sexist named Steve.
)) And I supposed you came into the world in a most unusual way.
)) Too bad the aliens dropped you on your head.
)) Seems like you have a bit of brain damage there.
and Steve's response:
))I don't appreciate your dropping into our list to flame me. If you
))think I'm wrong, why not show me how I'm wrong instead of insulting
))me?
))
))What did I ever do to you?
))
))
))Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
))"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
))that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
)) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
...and my then:
*********
)I'd say you were lucky, Steve. A friend of mine has a scar on his cheek to remind him that his dog can't process irony. Hoping to keep hearing )from you, /MRx
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1443.6 ---------------
From: Kanefer aol.com
Subject: Re: Waldorf and television
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:35:45 EDT
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Hi, I have heard only a little bit about why Waldorf educators discourage
television viewing, but what physiological changes have parents themselves
noted in their children after watching television? Please tell about this.
Probably no one thinks that Waldorf's stance on this issue is "fanatical,"
especially because of the questionable content of television programs. But
in regard to Waldorf it seems like one of those issues at the fulcrum between
child's home and school that sort of goes beyond teacher and school
responsibility in educating child through seeking controls on home.
My son's teacher once became very angry at me for taking my son and several
other children from the class to see a movie ("The Little Mermaid."). She
called a meeting of all us parents whose kids had gone to the movie, was
livid, and said that I should have told her the children to see a movie.
This astonished me - I mean, I just never would have thought about telling a
teacher that I'd taken my son and his classmates to see a movie. But knowing
little about Waldorf, I assumed she was correct in her attitude. But now,
looking back on such things, and on the tremendous relief my son and I both
experienced as he transferred to public school, it seems that it was somewhat
a parental role usurping thing.
Often, she would askif my son had been watching any television; if I
replied, "well, we did watch such-and-such together," she would say that she
could tell by his behavior in class, and then she would adjust her attitude
toward him accordingly. It was a great relief when my son went to public
school, for