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From ??? ??? Fri Aug 01 10:27:15 1997
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From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Human Rights
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:25:10 +0100
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"Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that
shall
be given to their children."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 26 Part 3
Governments which limit that right by selective funding are
morally in
breach of that declaration; i.e. they limit that right to the
wealthy.
--
Stephen Tonkin
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 01 20:57:04 1997
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Science & WE
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:09:58 +0000
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On 31 Jul 97 , spike netshel.net wrote:
) Steve Premo Posted:
)
) )This is a limitation of science, but it is not something from
which
) )science must be redeemed.
) )
) I very much like your reply to Rigby's post. It mirrors my
thoughts and
) attitude toward scientific study and the scientific method (not
the one
) Anthroposophical/Steiner proponents adhere to). However, I am
wondering how
) you align your stated views on science with the Anthroposophical
stance
) toward science.
I don't align my attitude toward science with the Anthroposophic
stance.
I see them as quite different. I dislike the anthroposophic
stance, but
we all must make choices among available alternatives.
) You are choosing to educate your child in a school in which
) the teachers are aligned with Rigby in regard to their stance
toward modern
) science. Do you want your child to be taught pseudoscience or do
you
) believe this will not occur?
Of course I do not want my child to be taught pseudoscience.
Do I believe that this will not occur? Well, it's not supposed to.
My
son is just going into first grade, and I plan to be diligent
about that.
Some on this list would say that I was naive, based on their
experiences.
Others would say that those who teach anthroposophic concepts to
the kids
are the exception, not the rule. This is similar to public
schools, where
the teachers are not supposed to teach Christian-based
pseudoscience
(e.g., creationism), and those who do so are the exception. But
there are
a lot of teachers out there who believe in creationism.
Remember, we're talking here about grade school teachers, not
high-school
teachers who specialize in science.
Now, if I understand correctly, the main distinction between the
teaching
of science at Waldorf and at other schools is that at Waldorf,
they
emphasize the observation of natural phenomena without
preconceptions.
I have no problem with this; it is a valuable skill.
And it seems to me that in other schools, at the grade school
level, kids
are taught basic scientific concepts (e.g., the names of the
planets, the
composition of the interior of the earth, etc.), but the
scientific method
is not explained, generally, until later. Correct me if I'm wrong.
As
far as I know, this stuff is taught at Waldorf too.
) It is my experience that Anthroposophists and Waldorf educators
confuse
) spiritual pursuits with scientific pursuits.
As do fundamentalist Christians, new-agers, and the followers of
various
other religious or spiritual philosophies.
In secular schools, generally, it is unlawful to discriminate
against
prospective teachers based on religion. You can't weed out
believers in
pseudoscience; all you can do is prohibit them from teaching it to
the
kids.
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 01 12:34:00 1997
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Camphill
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:28:23 -0700
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Jurgen Schon wrote me:
)In your last round-letter you asked about if there is anyone
associated
)with Camphill on the list.
)Well, there was. I have been following the activities on the list
for some
)time now, and I really dislike the language and sugestive writing
)techniques used in particular in your articles. Please get me of
this list.
)Consider renaming the list to "The Waldorf National Inquirer"
)
)Your "keeper" Jurgen Schon
)Camphill prison PA
I'd like you to stay on the list, Jurgen. Please respond to the
points
raised, rather than reacting to attitudes you dislike. I'm sure
your
experience could help us understand much about Camphill.
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 01 20:57:14 1997
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: does this sound familiar?
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:33:12 -0700
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LOS ANGELES (AP) - At least three public school teachers are
using Scientology teachings in their classrooms and one of them is
hoping to establish a separate tax-funded ``charter school'' using
the same methods.
District officials say they want to make sure using texts by the
late L. Ron Hubbard, the controversial founder of the Church of
Scientology, wouldn't violate the city's policy on religion in
schools.
``I think we need to get more information on what this
educational philosophy is so that we feel comfortable that it
doesn't have religious overtones,'' said board president Julie
Korenstein.
The teacher who wants to lead the new school, Linda Smith,
contends the materials developed by the late Hubbard are
nonsectarian learning techniques appropriate for students of any
faith.
She and two other teachers who also describe themselves as
Scientologists said last week that they have been using Hubbard's
methods - called Applied Scholastics - in their classes.
Among their techniques: having pupils look up words in
dictionaries. Only they call it ``word clearing.''
The three said that one of the most significant barriers to
learning is the ``misunderstood word,'' and that Hubbard sought to
alleviate students' confusion by having them use dictionaries.
Ms. Smith's proposal has drawn attention because of
Scientology's legal status as a religion and the questions raised
by critics who call it a cult that exploits members by charging
for
many services. The Church of Scientology won tax-exempt status
from
the Internal Revenue Service several years ago after a lengthy
court fight.
As a charter school, Ms. Smith's campus would get some support
from tax funds but would be allowed to operate outside many state
and district rules that constrain curriculum and budgets. Her
proposed school would have have about 100 students.
Ms. Smith's proposal, which made no mention of the Hubbard
materials when it was unveiled before the school board last week,
is scheduled for its next hearing Aug. 20.
In a recent recommendation letter, Ms. Smith's principal, Rowena
Lagrosa, praised her teaching, saying that her methods are
``pedagogically sound,'' and that she uses ``effective strategies
that any other teacher would employ.''
Ms. Lagrosa said she was unaware Ms. Smith was using the Hubbard
techniques.
posted by Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 01 20:57:36 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Lunar (was: Camphill)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:43:19 +0200
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At 12:49 PM 30/7/97 -0700, Dan Dugan wrote:
)For those who don't know, Camphill is one of the major activities
of
)Anthroposophy. "Camphill villages" are semi-isolated communities
where
)developmentally disabled people live and work supervised by
)Anthroposophical "co-workers."
)
)Is there anyone associated with Camphill on the list?
I am not really associated with Camphill. However, I can tell you
about
someone who might have been.
A few months ago, I spoke at a meeting in Nijmegen, in the east of
The
Netherlands. The meeting was hardly about Anthroposophy. It was
mainly about
James Redfield's book The Celestine Prophecy, and about the
Findhorn New Age
community in Scotland (a subject which deserves an Internet
critical
discussion list of its own).
I travelled back by train after the meeting. Opposite to me sat a
woman from
Utrecht, in the middle of The Netherlands. She had also been at
the meeting.
She told me that as a qualified nurse, she had read about a job
vacancy at a
Dutch 'Camphill', some years ago. She had applied, knowing
practically
nothing about Anthroposophy, like the great majority of people in
The
Netherlands (and in other countries, I suspect).
The management invited her for an interview. Then, she said: "The
manager
looked at my black hair. He looked at my dark brown eyes. Then, he
looked at
the chain with the Star of David around my neck. Then, he said: "I
think you
are too lunar". I did not get the job. I was puzzled. Only later,
I happened
to read about Anthroposophists associating Judaism with the moon,
in their
theories of 'planetary qualities' of nations."
Did things like this also happen elsewhere? I certainly hope not!
I hope
that many Anthroposophists reject this type of behavior. Will it
make them
more critical of 'planetary qualities' type theories?
Greetings,
Herman de Tollenaere
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 01 20:57:54 1997
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From: Luna457954 aol.com
Subject: What's wrong with Germany?
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:09:26 -0400 (EDT)
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In a message dated 97-07-31 20:27:32 EDT, dan dandugan.com (Dan
Dugan)
writes:
(( I think we're coming closer to it now. Waldorf is a German
franchise. ))
Well, technically, Steiner was Austrian by birth, not German,
although the
first Waldorf school was in Germany. As for Waldorf being a
"German
franchise", isn't our current public school systerm a variant of
the English
system, and does it matter what country an educational method is
from? Why
does the fact that a school has its roots in Germany make it
somehow bad?
What's wrong with Germany? From the little I have read about it,
Germany is
a beautiful land with a rich heritage in the Arts, the Sciences,
and
religion. Its history is colorful and interesting. Germany has
made its
share of mistakes, but hasn't every country? What could possibly
be wrong
with a school coming from Germany, or France, or Canada, or
anywhere? And
where's the harm of teaching children this beautiful language?
IMO, all language has beauty and value, and the fact that a child
learns
German (or *any* language, beginning at age six pleases me.
Kelly (who'd love it if schools, any schools, would teach Gaelic,
just
because she is
enchanted with the language!)
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 01 20:58:09 1997
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Message-Id: (199708020043.RAA02534 lists1.best.com)
From: spike netshel.net
Subject: Testing Steiner's Path
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:23:33 -0700
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Levy Posted:
)Dan - here's a direct question. You calim the existence of an
)anthroposophical fantasy land. How do you justify this. Have you
tested
)out Steiner's path of self-development for yourself.
How does one _test_ Steiner's path of self-development for
oneself? This is
the religious path of "faith." Like all religious beliefs you must
have
faith that its reality exists and you must interpret your personal
experiential phenomena as verifying your faith. There could be no
_test_ in
regard to the scientific path, ie: utilizing the scientific
method.
One of the things I find most disturbing about Anthroposophy is
the
assertion that it is scientific. Stating this is, I believe, meant
to give
it some sort of validity. Why not simply say it is a spiritual
belief
system and that some choose this particular spiritual path? Many
people,
yourself included, find that it Anthroposophy works for them in
their
lives. It lends you a sort of personal existential validity or
reality. But
it is simply _your_ reality, much the same as those that are
Jehovah's
Witness have their reality and believe just as deeply that it is
based on
spiritual truth. There is absolutely nothing scientific about this
type of
belief system. it is a religion.
(St.) Kathy
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 01 20:58:12 1997
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From: spike netshel.net
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n471
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:23:35 -0700
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Rigby posted
)
)Paul, I wouldn't dignify Dan's statement as "a generalisation
based on his
)own limited experience." Dan, as usual, is deliberately making a
statement
)distorted to the point of untruth in order to provoke reaction.
)
How is this statement distorted to the point of untruth? What is
the path
taken at your school when there is dissonance in regard to the
Anthroposophical philosophy driving your curriculum? What do the
administrators do when a parent or student disagrees with Waldorf
pseudoscientific teachings?
I have a very limited experience with Waldorf, however; it is
enormously
clear to me that dissonance is _not_ accepted. You were there on
the night
of May 15, Rigby, in Sacramento, at _my_ meeting with _my_ CTA
attorney
when Arlene Monk became emotional and accused me of being
dishonest. Both
of you were not invited and had no business at this meeting.
Arlene berated
me loudly as I left and vehemently denied Waldorf education
handouts given
at Rudolf Steiner College. I have been called a liar repeatedly by
Waldorf
supporters. If this is not a method of shunning and discrediting
dissonance, what is?
I have been followed, had photos taken of me, and labeled as
emotionally
disturbed by Waldorf supporters. Yes Rigby, I will repeat this
again and
again and again. It happened; it was horrible; it was and is
inexcusable.
And it was the direct result of my dissonance with Waldorf
educational
methods.
I think Dan Dugan puts the situation mildly. Like any cult, when
dissonance
occurs in regard to the Waldorf method it is met head-on and
discredited in
a forceful manner. Even you Rigby, when you discovered that I
could not be
nicely manipulated into sharing my notes and handouts with you,
then took
the path of discreditation. Recently you have labeled me as a
Saint,
insinuating, I believe, that I have taken the role of the martyr.
So be it.
Martyrs carry a strong message.
(Saint) Kathy
From ??? ??? Sat Aug 02 10:19:04 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Oak Ridge Registration Results
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:12:11 -0700
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Reviewing the past couple of weeks activities, I am amazed at the
break
down of the registration results at Oak Ridge school.
# of students enrolled 1997-98:
627
#students who registered during the week of July 14-18:
392* (63%)
# of students registering for a program with Waldorf methods:
K = 25
1st = 15
2nd = 12
3rd = 29
4th = 20
5th = 17
6th = 16
(2 voted were undecided)
# of students registering for a program without Waldorf methods:
K = 26
1st = 42
2nd = 47
3rd = 42
4th = 34
5th = 36
6th = 29
It seems the only full classes would be kindergarten and third
grade, _if_
the school is in a position to take advantage of the reduced
classroom
incentive program for K-3, which allows the classrooms to have
only 20
children.
It may be a good idea for the board to consider chartering the
Waldorf
program, then moving it close to Sacramento Waldorf School. That
would be a
smart move for SCUSD because the public Waldorf school may attract
private
school families who are committed to Waldorf. Instant enrollment.
SCUSD
would get to keep the federal grant money. They could bus the 134
children
[from Oak Park] who registered for Waldorf to the charter Waldorf
school,
giving them first priority for admittance, of course. But there is
_still_
that nagging church-state issue....
Deby
From ??? ??? Sat Aug 02 10:19:16 1997
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From: spike netshel.net
Subject: Science in CA Public Schools
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:17:50 -0700
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Steve Premo wrote:
)Of course I do not want my child to be taught pseudoscience.
)
)Do I believe that this will not occur? Well, it's not supposed
to. My
)son is just going into first grade, and I plan to be diligent
about that.
)
)Some on this list would say that I was naive, based on their
experiences.
)Others would say that those who teach anthroposophic concepts to
the kids
)are the exception, not the rule.
I fear you are naive. I hope that I am wrong. My experience,
although
somewhat limited, is the opposite. They are the rule, not the
exception.
Remember, teachers teach what they know, what they have been
taught, and
what they believe to be true. What sort of "scientific training"
do you
think the anthroposophically educated Waldorf teachers have had
that teach
at your son's Waldorf School? What will be your course of action
when they
teach your son that the four _elements_ are earth, wind, fire, and
water?
)
)Remember, we're talking here about grade school teachers, not
high-school
)teachers who specialize in science.
I have not forgotten that we are talking about grade school
teachers. The
public school teacher's training I received at RSC was for grade
school
teaching.
)
)Now, if I understand correctly, the main distinction between the
teaching
)of science at Waldorf and at other schools is that at Waldorf,
they
)emphasize the observation of natural phenomena without
preconceptions.
)I have no problem with this; it is a valuable skill.
I think observation is an invaluable tool when teaching science to
any age,
and it must be emphasized from the earliest grades - even
kindergarden.
This is the emphasis in the California State frameworks for
science at
every grade. The difference here is that in public schools and
probably
other private schools, excluding Waldorf, observation _and_
scientific
concepts are taught.
)
)And it seems to me that in other schools, at the grade school
level, kids
)are taught basic scientific concepts (e.g., the names of the
planets, the
)composition of the interior of the earth, etc.), but the
scientific method
)is not explained, generally, until later. Correct me if I'm
wrong. As
)far as I know, this stuff is taught at Waldorf too.
I am a credentialed science teacher for the elementary grades. The
emphasis
in California and what I received in my teacher training at CSU is
to teach
the scientific method from the earliest grades - even in
kindergarden. With
young children the teaching of science is designed to revolve
entirely
around their observations. As they gain in maturity scientific
concepts are
introduced, however; _always_ the scientific method is emphasized,
almost
as an unspoken mantra, if you will. All of science teaching in
California
public schools, according to the frameworks, is hands-on with the
students
observing, hypothesizing, experimenting, making conclusions, and
studying
prior knowledge.
In Waldorf education the teacher designs the experiment and
demonstrates it
for the class. The students do not conduct the experiments
themselves. They
observe the phenomena and then make their conclusions. At least
this is the
information I have received in regard to teaching science in
allignment
with the Waldorf method.
The demonstrations are designed to emphasize the anthroposophical
view of
science, ie; the _four_ elements, anti-evolution (Darwin) and
superiority
of the human, Goethe's theory of color, etc. Observation is the
emphasis -
the scientific method is ignored.
)In secular schools, generally, it is unlawful to discriminate
against
)prospective teachers based on religion. You can't weed out
believers in
)pseudoscience; all you can do is prohibit them from teaching it
to the
)kids.
You're absolutely right. But what about non-secular schools such
as
Waldorf? Not only are they _not_ prohibited from teaching
pseudoscience,
they are mandated to do so.
Steve, undoubtedly you are a diligent parent that wants the best
for your
child. Waldorf schools paint a very pretty picture, especially for
their
early elementary education. But you are likely to have a very
difficult
time removing your son from his school and peer group when you
become
increasingly uneasy with the knowledge that his education is
lacking
academically and is largely based on a spiritual belief system. He
will
probably fight you tooth and nail and will demonstrate distress
and
fearfulness about changing schools. It is not an easy task. Listen
to some
of the parents on this list - they have had an incredibly tough
time of it.
I believe McKay still has his daughter in a Waldorf school because
she does
not want to leave despite his clear knowledge that it is not
serving her
educationally.
It is easy to change schools when a child is young. When they are
older and
are rooted in their peer group it becomes a deeply traumatic
event.
If it is important to you that your son learn science as a part of
his
education, including the use of the scientific method, you need to
be very
clear that this will not happen in a Waldorf school.
Kathy
From ??? ??? Sat Aug 02 10:19:20 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Science in CA Public Schools
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 23:52:26 -0700
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)Steve, undoubtedly you are a diligent parent that wants the best
for your
)child. Waldorf schools paint a very pretty picture, especially
for their
)early elementary education. But you are likely to have a very
difficult
)time removing your son from his school and peer group when you
become
)increasingly uneasy with the knowledge that his education is
lacking
)academically and is largely based on a spiritual belief system.
He will
)probably fight you tooth and nail and will demonstrate distress
and
)fearfulness about changing schools. It is not an easy task.
Listen to some
)of the parents on this list - they have had an incredibly tough
time of it.
)I believe McKay still has his daughter in a Waldorf school
because she does
)not want to leave despite his clear knowledge that it is not
serving her
)educationally.
)
)It is easy to change schools when a child is young. When they are
older and
)are rooted in their peer group it becomes a deeply traumatic
event.
)
)If it is important to you that your son learn science as a part
of his
)education, including the use of the scientific method, you need
to be very
)clear that this will not happen in a Waldorf school.
I wish to second Kathleen's warning, Steve. By the time we decided
that
Derrick was receiving an inferior education (5th grade, 11 yo), he
was so
attached to his peers that he protested moving to a new school.
Clearly
moving a child from a school where he felt deeply connected was to
set him
up to fail in his new school experience.
Luckily _many_long term Waldorf families came to the same
conclusion and we
were able to move as a unit (17 out of 22 students moved to a new
school
where we negotiated to have them in the same class). This event
has to be
rare, and the odds are against it ever happening again. We got the
best of
all possible options. The children stayed together. This was
especially
good because they had the same academic needs. The teacher was
able to
bring the whole class up to speed, verses Derrick transferring to
a school
where he felt like he was the only one not prepared to do the work
required
in traditional schools.
Your child is young. Check out the curriculum in the upper grades
long
before your child gets there. See if you agree with what is being
taught
now. While Waldorf proponent advertise the value and benefits of
the same
teacher remaining with the children through the grades, I would
like to see
stats on how many teachers actually remain with their students
that long.
Make the choice based on a through and studied evaluation.
My son gets in public school _everything_ Waldorf _said_ they were
about.
Public schools don't seem to preach it, they just do it. (No
dogma. No
pressure to "be" the "right kind of parent". Waldorf gave me the
gift of
recognition. Many of the families were in complete shock when we
left WE.
We were fearful of what we may find. What we found was everything
WE
claimed it was, without the crisis. A huge relief. Our kids do not
want
Saturday to come. They go to school sick if we let them. They
_love_
school. Max plays music. He knits at home. He crochets in school.
He built
a boat in school. He goes on overnight field trips. He is learning
values
at school. He is learning conflict resolution skills in school.
Even if you have no plans to move your child from Waldorf, visit
public
school classrooms with an open mind. They can be pretty awesome.
Deby
From ??? ??? Sat Aug 02 10:19:50 1997
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Message-Id: (199708021330.GAA26438 lists1.best.com)
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Waldorf School Science
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:10:49 +0100
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spike netshel.net wrote:
)In Waldorf education the teacher designs the experiment and
demonstrates it
)for the class.
Yes, that happens, although not all the time.
It should be fairly obvious to anyone that a responsible teacher
does
not just let a bunch of youngsters loose with a load of lab
equipment
without giving some guidance. Appropriate lab practice is best
learned
by observing someone who is competent, not by "discovery" methods.
) The students do not conduct the experiments themselves.
That is untrue.
Pupils conduct (and design!) many experiments themselves. A common
answer to the "What would happen if..?" question is "How could you
find
out?" -- and then, once an appropriate course of action has been
decided
upon, either the pupils, or the teacher, or both (whichever is
appropriate/safe), actually doing it.
--
Stephen Tonkin
From ??? ??? Sat Aug 02 10:20:06 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Drug rehabilitation therapies
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:41:19 +0200
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Various groups, claiming to be spiritual, religious, or
scientific, have
drug addiction therapies. Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (Osho) devotees
were very
active in this field in The Netherlands in the 1980s. Also in The
Netherlands, Anthroposophists have Arta.
Is there anything similar to Arta (maybe under different names) in
other
countries?
What are the basic ideas of Arta? Is there any direct or indirect
link to
Waldorf education?
From ??? ??? Sat Aug 02 19:40:54 1997
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From: Luna457954 AOL.COM
Subject: Who's to blame?
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:45:40 -0400 (EDT)
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In a message dated 97-08-01 22:28:04 EDT, spike netshel.net
writes:
(( I have been followed, had photos taken of me, and labeled as
emotionally
disturbed by Waldorf supporters. Yes Rigby, I will repeat this
again and
again and again. It happened; it was horrible; it was and is
inexcusable.
And it was the direct result of my dissonance with Waldorf
educational
methods. ))
Any violation of one human being by another is indeed "horrible"
and
"inexcusable", of course. However, I feel that if one is violated
by Waldorf
supporters (who BTW are as guilty as anyone), it is those
individuals that
are to blame, not Waldorf, not Anthroposophists, not Steiner
himself.
Charles Manson, the mass murderer, committed the Tate-LaBianca
murders
because he believed there was going to be a black/white race war
and he was
an instrument of said war. Where did he get his info? Well, much
of it came
from the Beatles' "White Album", and specifically from several
songs on that
album (hence the name of the book "Helter Skelter". One cannot
blame all
Beatles fans, or the Beatles themselves. Many heinous crimes have
been
committed in the name of God, especially in the name of Jesus.
Shall we
blame all Christians, or Christ himself, for these crimes? No, the
fault is
with the individual.
The people who wronged you may have indeed done so for what they
believed to
be the "righteous cause" of Waldorf education. The blame, however,
goes to
THEM, not to their "cause".
another opinion from
Kelly
From ??? ??? Sat Aug 02 19:40:58 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: German in WE
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:11:43 -0700
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)
)) (( Why do American Waldorf elementary school students study
German?
))
)) -Dan Dugan ))
))
)) My question is, why not? Our school has over the years taught
German,
)) Spanish and French (our Eighth Grade graduates this year
finished with eight
)) years of Spanish.) I think the point you are trying to make is
that German
)) is not a useful language in the US. While it is not as
prevalent in this
)) country as Spanish, it is nonetheless a beautiful language, and
one in which
)) our language has strong roots.
)) Perhaps when one is talking about the "business world", the
language of
)) choice should perhaps learn Japanese. I personally don't know
of any
)) schools, Waldorf or otherwise, who teach it, however.
))
)) Kelly
)Japanese is taught at Camelia Waldorf School in Sacramento,
California.
)Why not elsewhere? Perhaps in the modern world, especially given
the
)burgeoning unification of Europe, it makes little more sense for
the
)North American linguist to study German than Japanese . The study
of
)language, however, is often based on more than pragmatic business
sense,
)and the reasons that a native speaker of English would study
German are
)probably quite different that the reasons that same person would
)identify as the reasons to study Japanese.
)
)Best wishes. -- Hill
Children attending WE in Applegate, Ca are exposed to Japanese.
The Yuba
River Waldorf school exposes children to German and Spanish. After
4 years
of "exposure", my oldest son can pronounce a couple of German
words
(through songs) but has no idea what the words mean. Max (our
youngest
son), thought German _was_ Spanish (after two+ years of exposure
to
German). I call WE's approach to foreign languages over exposure.
Children
should be able to communicate a little after 4 years of foreign
language
instruction.
In the beginning of Derrick's 5th grade year in WE, parents were
asked to
pay additional funds for foreign language instruction in Spanish
and
German. Parents in his class, ever the rebels, chose to support
Spanish and
not German. We asked for more academics during the German time,
and offered
to pay for that. Our wishes, while not supported, were honored.
Deby
From ??? ??? Sat Aug 02 19:41:25 1997
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From: RigbyL AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Science in CA Public Schools
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:14:54 -0400 (EDT)
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In a message dated 97-08-02 07:52:36 EDT, Kathy Sutphen wrote:
(( In Waldorf education the teacher designs the experiment and
demonstrates
it
for the class. The students do not conduct the experiments
themselves. They
observe the phenomena and then make their conclusions. At least
this is the
information I have received in regard to teaching science in
allignment
with the Waldorf method.
The demonstrations are designed to emphasize the anthroposophical
view of
science, ie; the _four_ elements, anti-evolution (Darwin) and
superiority
of the human, Goethe's theory of color, etc. Observation is the
emphasis -
the scientific method is ignored. ))
It is interesting that Kathy can speak with such confidence about
what goes
on in Waldorf schools when by her own admission she has had very
little
experience with Waldorf. Her statements are incorrect. In
particular,
Waldorf students do conduct demonstrations for themselves.
I happened to have two Waldorf graduates in the house when these
assertions
appeared on my screen, both of whom attended public high school
after two
years of Waldorf high school. I asked them about the difference
between the
two school settings relative to their experience in science
classes. They
agreed that in Waldorf they had a better understanding of what was
happening
and why, but that the public school went more deeply into the
mathematics of
the situation. One said that in the public school he seemed to
have better
understanding of the phenomena than most students, who tended
simply to
follow the mathematical formulas.
They both said they were more strongly motivated in the Waldorf
school, but
they attributed this primarily to the smaller class size and
closer
connection with the teacher. In the Waldorf school, the major
topics in
science were handled as main lessons and the students their own
main lesson
books to document what they had learned in the demonstrations.
That process
naturally involves the students more deeply with the topic than
simple
test-taking.
I expect that the quality of science teaching in a Waldorf school
will be
more dependent on the quality of the science teachers, than is the
case in
public schools. As with all other aspects of Waldorf, it is
essential for
the parent to become acquainted with the resources and approaches
actually
used in the local Waldorf school, rather than relying on
generalizations
about Waldorf education.
Rigby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 02:37:59 1997
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From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: German in WE
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:52:34 +0100
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Deby Snell (snell oro.net) wrote:
)After 4 years
)of "exposure", my oldest son can pronounce a couple of German
words
)(through songs) but has no idea what the words mean. Max (our
youngest
)son), thought German _was_ Spanish (after two+ years of exposure
to
)German). I call WE's approach to foreign languages over exposure.
Children
)should be able to communicate a little after 4 years of foreign
language
)instruction.
Generalising from the particular again, Deby?
As a counter example, my two children (just finished grades 3 and
4
respectively) converse in German when they don't want my wife and
I to
understand what they are saying (fair enough -- my wife and I do
the
same in French to them (g)). Their vocabulary is considerably more
extensive than mine.
A year or so ago when one of my German astronomy cronies came to
stay,
he had conversations in German with the children and noticed their
Bavarian accents (their German teacher is Bavarian).
Of the children from my last class who will attend the local
Comprehensive (probably our equivalent to your public) school next
year,
over half have been placed (after assessment by the Comp) in the
top set
for German -- i.e. over half are at a similar level to the top
25-ish%
in the Comp. (BTW, this is not an attempt to denigrate the quality
of
German teaching at the Comp -- I have sung the praises of that
school
here before -- I am merely stating a fact)
Whilst I wouldn't suggest that these children's experience is
necessarily general, I do suggest that the quality of language
teaching
varies from school to school and that not all children are the
same when
it comes to learning a foreign language (or learning anything
else, for
that matter). Parents considering Waldorf education may be well
advised
to ascertain the quality of teaching in the various subjects in
the
actual school their children will attend, rather than rely on Deby
or my
experiences as being representative of the whole.
)We asked for more academics during the German time, and offered
)to pay for that. Our wishes, while not supported, were honored.
Well now, surely this gives the lie to PLANS's oft-stated claim
that
parents can have no say in Waldorf education and statements such
as
Dugan's recent "Harmony is ensured, as it is in Waldorf schools,
by
throwing out anybody who doesn't cooperate."
--
Stephen Tonkin
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 02:38:04 1997
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From: spike netshel.net
Subject: Treatment of Waldorf dissidents
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:44:37 -0700
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Luna Posted:
However, I feel that if one is violated by Waldorf
)supporters (who BTW are as guilty as anyone), it is those
individuals that
)are to blame, not Waldorf, not Anthroposophists, not Steiner
himself . . .
)The people who wronged you may have indeed done so for what they
believed to
)be the "righteous cause" of Waldorf education. The blame,
however, goes to
)THEM, not to their "cause".
)
Kelly,
I posted my reply to Rigby as a result of his response to Dan
Dugan's
posting about the treatment of dissonance toward the Waldorf
method. His
posting was as follows:
"I wouldn't dignify Dan's statement as "a generalisation based on
his
own limited experience." Dan, as usual, is deliberately making a
statement
distorted to the point of untruth in order to provoke reaction.
Rigby"
The point I am making is that there is a pattern of extreme
"shunning" of
dissonance within Waldorf programs. It happened to Dan Dugan, it
happened
to Deby Snell, and it happened to me. These occurrences were at
three
different school sites many miles apart. We did not know each
other and had
no knowledge of the other's experiences. These occurrences also
took place
at very different times and at the hands of different people. The
common
threads: Waldorf educators and supporters were the 'actors,' the
shunning
occurred as a result of each of us questioning the validity of
Waldorf
methods, we were 'expelled' when it became apparent that we held
our
particular beliefs and questions strongly. This is a very brief
synopsis.
However, the point is clear that Dan Dugan is not making
statements
distorted to the point of untruth in order to provoke a reaction.
His
statement simply describes the truth.
Do you believe that you would be kindly and warmly listened to if
you had a
problem with the teaching of pseudoscience, religious
indoctrination, etc.,
at your children's school? I sure didn't expect the reaction that
I
received and I know that Dan Dugan and Debra Snell were taken
completely
off guard. I also know that we are not the only ones to have
experienced
this type of harassment. This is cult-like behavior.
I cannot imagine this type of reaction in a public school setting
if I had
a problem with the math curriculum or the reading program. I am
not
inferring that there are never problems or personality conflicts,
but I
don't believe that name-calling, following, shunning, and other
forms of
harassment would occur. I have certainly never witnessed it in my
many
years with the public education system and I have had several
situations in
which I disagreed with a particular facet of a program.
Rigby himself has indulged in name-calling during these summer
months. Why?
Because we criticize Waldorf. Waldorf supporters and
Anthroposophists have
a tendency to guard their beliefs and methods carefully. Remember,
they
believe that their path and methods are _the _ truth. Steiner
received it
from an angelic messenger - one of the "higher-ups" if I recall.
Anyone
that disagrees is clearly in the wrong and needs to leave and
their
dissonance needs to be silenced within the community.
Kathy
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 02:38:02 1997
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From: spike netshel.net
Subject: Science
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:44:41 -0700
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Tonkin posted:
)It should be fairly obvious to anyone that a responsible teacher
does
)not just let a bunch of youngsters loose with a load of lab
equipment
)without giving some guidance. Appropriate lab practice is best
learned
)by observing someone who is competent, not by "discovery"
methods.
I am not sure what you mean by this. Do you believe that in public
school
lab classes students are let loose in a lab without thorough
education on
lab use, materials use, and how to conduct an experiment? Do you
think they
have no say in experiment design? Of course I am speaking of
public
education in California, so perhaps you have no experience with
this.
However, I cannot imagine any teacher anywhere letting "a bunch of
youngsters loose with a load of lab equipment without giving some
guidance."
Kathy
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 02:38:09 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Science in CA Public Schools
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:04:41 -0700
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)Rigby writes,
)I expect that the quality of science teaching in a Waldorf school
will be
)more dependent on the quality of the science teachers, than is
the case in
)public schools. As with all other aspects of Waldorf, it is
essential for
)the parent to become acquainted with the resources and approaches
actually
)used in the local Waldorf school, rather than relying on
generalizations
)about Waldorf education.
)
I find this statement interesting. Why do you feel that the
quality of
science teaching in a Waldorf school is more dependent on the
quality of
the science teachers? Why do you think it is more true in Waldorf
than
public schools?
I think AWSNA should work toward more uniform education standards
for
accredited Waldorf schools. Rigby, do you have a connection with
AWSNA?
Deby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 02:38:12 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: German in WE
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:36:06 -0700
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Stephen writes,
)Whilst I wouldn't suggest that these children's experience is
)necessarily general, I do suggest that the quality of language
teaching
)varies from school to school and that not all children are the
same when
)it comes to learning a foreign language (or learning anything
else, for
)that matter). Parents considering Waldorf education may be well
advised
)to ascertain the quality of teaching in the various subjects in
the
)actual school their children will attend, rather than rely on
Deby or my
)experiences as being representative of the whole.
Well stated, Stephen. I will _again_ suggest that AWSNA take a
look at
standardizing Waldorf education. Accreditation should well include
accountability for a quality education. Can anyone explain just
_what_
AWSNA's function is?
)
))We asked for more academics during the German time, and offered
))to pay for that. Our wishes, while not supported, were honored.
)
)Well now, surely this gives the lie to PLANS's oft-stated claim
that
)parents can have no say in Waldorf education and statements such
as
)Dugan's recent "Harmony is ensured, as it is in Waldorf schools,
by
)throwing out anybody who doesn't cooperate."
This happened at the public Waldorf school. As it happens,
Stephen, the
teacher responsible for allowing the parents choice _did_ leave.
It appears
that she grew tired of the constant pressure to be "more" Waldorf.
She
took tremendous heat for supporting the parents decision. The
faculty
remained adament that parents should not have a say in pedigogical
concerns. That is what I meant when I said "our wishes, while not
supported, were honored". Their only other choice would have been
to get
rid of the entire class with the teacher. They eventually did
that, but we
left at the end of the year. This example took place in the
beginning of
the year.
Deby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 10:02:16 1997
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From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Science
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:47:25 +0100
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spike netshel.net wrote:
)Tonkin posted:
)
))It should be fairly obvious to anyone that a responsible teacher
does
))not just let a bunch of youngsters loose with a load of lab
equipment
))without giving some guidance. Appropriate lab practice is best
learned
))by observing someone who is competent, not by "discovery"
methods.
)
)I am not sure what you mean by this.
I mean that it is a perfectly valid activity, in _any_ form of
education, for the teacher to demonstrate how an experiment is
done. I
also contend that it is good teaching practice for a teacher to
demonstrate good experimental design, with examples of the same.
In your criticism of Waldorf science teaching, you stated: "In
Waldorf
education the teacher designs the experiment and demonstrates it
for the
class". The implication of a statement like this is that you have
a
problem with this approach -- if not, why state it?
If it were the _only_ approach to teaching, I too would have a
problem
with it, but your next statement: "The students do not conduct the
experiments themselves." has been shown to be untrue, not only
here but
also in the (presumably Californian) Waldorf school attended by
Rigby's
offspring.
) Do you believe that in public school
)lab classes students are let loose in a lab without thorough
education on
)lab use, materials use, and how to conduct an experiment?
No, I did not say that.
) Do you think they
)have no say in experiment design?
Neither did I say that.
)However, I cannot imagine any teacher anywhere letting "a bunch
of
)youngsters loose with a load of lab equipment without giving some
)guidance."
Neither can I, which is why I responded to your criticism: "In
Waldorf
education the teacher designs the experiment and demonstrates it
for the
class".
--
Stephen Tonkin
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 10:02:09 1997
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From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Science in CA Public Schools
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:57:18 +0100
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In a criticism of Waldorf science teaching, spike netshel.net
wrote:
)The demonstrations are designed to emphasize the anthroposophical
view of
)science, ie;
[...]
) anti-evolution (Darwin) and superiority
)of the human,
Please could you describe that demonstration, as it occurs in a
Waldorf
school science lesson.
I ask having pondered your claim, slept on it, pondered it some
more --
my imagination must be showing signs of ageing because I am still
unable
to conceive how such a demonstration could be performed in a
Waldorf (or
any other) school science lesson.
--
Stephen Tonkin
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 12:56:38 1997
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From: Luna457954 aol.com
Subject: Re: Treatment of Waldorf dissidents
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:18:54 -0400 (EDT)
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In a message dated 97-08-03 02:13:37 EDT, spike netshel.net
writes:
(( Do you believe that you would be kindly and warmly listened to
if you had
a
problem with the teaching of pseudoscience, religious
indoctrination, etc.,
at your children's school? ))
I already have been treated with kindness and respect with any
questions I've
had. My experience with the school my children attend has been
mostly
positive, and I've made many friends. I've sat in on classes, and
any
questions I've had have been answered honestly and intelligently.
Our first
parent meeting this year for one of my children's classes is going
to
primarily discuss the "why's" of the curriculum and questions will
be
encouraged, as will discussion of any problems we may have with
the
curriculum.
As you see, my experience with WE education has been a good one.
I'm very
sorry some others haven't had the same experience. I can only
speak from my
own observations, and I find I like what I see.
Kelly
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 12:56:40 1997
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From: Luna457954 aol.com
Subject: hands-on science in Waldorf schools
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:41:19 -0400 (EDT)
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In a message dated 97-08-03 08:39:11 EDT, sft aegis1.demon.co.uk
(Stephen
Tonkin) writes:
(( In your criticism of Waldorf science teaching, you stated: "In
Waldorf
education the teacher designs the experiment and demonstrates it
for the
class". The implication of a statement like this is that you have
a
problem with this approach -- if not, why state it?
If it were the _only_ approach to teaching, I too would have a
problem
with it, but your next statement: "The students do not conduct the
experiments themselves." has been shown to be untrue, not only
here but
also in the (presumably Californian) Waldorf school attended by
Rigby's
offspring. ))
My daughter's eighth grade class had a mini "science fair" toward
the end of
their science block (I think the block was chemistry, but the fair
included
all science). The children were given the choice of an experiment
to do,
chose a partner, and conducted the experiment at home. All
experiments
involved the building of some kind of apparatus which was used to
conduct the
experiment. In my daughter's case, she and her partner built a
telegraph
machine (which, BTW, was not only functional but beautiful as
well!). There
was a test done concerning which liquids conducted electricity
(from a
battery) most efficiently, a test involving a balloon, a beaker,
and a bunsen
burner, used to show the effect heat has on air (also done by my
daughter),
and a few others. Parents were encouraged to attend the mini-fair,
which was
put on during the main lesson. I was very impressed with what
these kids
managed to do BY THEMSELVES.
So as in Rigby's school, my children's school as well has a
"hands-on"
approach to science.
Kelly (whose daughter has to go to public H.S. this year, alas)
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 13:20:49 1997
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Camphill
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:55:57 -0700
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Jurgen Schon wrote me:
)This is addressed to y o u and not intended for publishing on the
National
)Inquirer list.
Dear Jurgen, you signed your letter "respectfully," yet you call
our list
"National Inquirer." I remind you again that I don't have time for
personal
correspondence with Anthroposophists. I don't want you to leave
until we've
had a chance to talk a bit.
)Again, please unsubscribe me but feel free to contact me
)directly with questions you have in regards to Camphill. What is
the
)difference between Richard Goode and you? He has actually visited
Camphill
)and had his own, personal experience of it. You on the other hand
have seen
)three(wow) videos.
Richard Goode is the pianist who was so impressed with the
communal
relationship between "villagers" and "co-workers" in Camphill. I
bought the
four videos the Camphill Foundation sells and studied them
carefully. You
choose to put down this commitment. I've also read quite a few
articles
about Camphill and receive the newsletter.
) This is what I suggest: Go and walk into any of your
East-Bay-Regional
)Center sponsored programs/homes. Talk to "Inmates" and "keepers"
there,
)start a new mailing list, then come and visit Camphill and
experience the
)differences. Mr. Dugan, with all due respect, you have no idea
what you are
)talking about.
How about talking about specific issues rather than rendering
opinions on
your correspondent's knowledge?
)How about some constructive ideas on your part on how to
)create meaningful working and living arrangements for people with
)developmental disabilities. I am sure people in your nick of the
woods (see
)closing of Development Centers, Kurfelt settlement) are in dire
need of
)that sort of thing. Do something, talk to people in the field in
your
)area, find out about the problems and then change something by
doing it
)differently instead of bickering on about stuff which is far
removed from
)your own experiences. ( E.g. hire somebody with developmental
disabilities
)in your sound studio, become a program provider, live with people
in your
)home, e.t.c. )
)Be creative and just get on with it! The East Bay Regional Center
needs
)your help!
I have invited a mentally disabled person to live in my home,
Jurgen, so
perhaps I am as holy as thou.
Please explain "Kurfelt settlement." Please tell me more about the
East Bay
Regional Center. It's not listed in the international Camphill
directory at
http://www.croftcvt.demon.co.uk/. Are you a co-worker there?
Here is a very specific question: I presume that since some of the
co-workers are couples, they enjoy sexual activity. How about the
villagers? What are the rules for love and sex in Camphill?
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 13:20:58 1997
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Science in CA Public Schools
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:04:17 -0400 (EDT)
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Deby asked me:
(( Why do you feel that the quality of science teaching in a
Waldorf school
is more dependent on the quality of the science teachers? Why do
you think
it is more true in Waldorf than public schools?))
Two reasons. Waldorf schools usually offer lower wages than public
schools,
making it more difficult to obtain high quality teachers in any
subject.
Public schools tend to have a more "canned" curriculum, requiring
less
personal effort by the teacher. (I have been told by public school
teachers
who have adapted Waldorf methods that they require considerably
more work on
their part.) These are generalizations; obviously, the quality of
the
teacher is a predominant factor in the quality of education in any
classroom.
And Deby said: "I think AWSNA should work toward more uniform
education
standards for accredited Waldorf schools. Rigby, do you have a
connection
with AWSNA?"
I do not have any formal connection with AWSNA, but I do have
friends on the
AWSNA staff. Although AWSNA does hold the copyright on the Waldorf
name in
the USA, AWSNA does not accredit Waldorf schools. Those Waldorf
schools that
are accredited are accredited through independent accreditation
agencies.
For example, the Sacramento Waldorf School is accredited through
the Western
Association of Schools and Colleges.
Also, AWSNA does not enforce uniform standards in Waldorf schools.
The best
way to think of AWSNA is as an agency through which the
independent Waldorf
schools establish association with one another. Through that
agency the
schools do address issues of common interest, including curriculum
content,
but independence of each school is a very strong theme within
Waldorf
education. This is why it is very important for a parent
considering
enrolling a child in a Waldorf school to make a connection with
that school,
instead of relying on generalizations about Waldorf education.
Regards,
Rigby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 21:46:45 1997
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Owen Barfield
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:28:48 -0400 (EDT)
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Steve Premo-
Thanks for your comments on my recent "Owen Barfield" post.
Regarding Barfield's point that confusing scientific models with
reality is a
type of idolatry, you said: "Yes, and the scientific method itself
militates
against confusing scientific models with reality. This is why
scientists no
longer call theories "laws" (except for historical reasons, as is
the case
with Newton's laws of motion, or the laws of thermodynamics). All
theories
(and laws) are tentative, and subject to disproof. Scientists
rigorously try
to disprove them, and the rewards for doing so are great. Those
who disprove
widely-accepted theories and replace them with theories that more
closely
approach reality (or, to put it another way, are more useful in
explaining
our observations) earn a place in history."
In his well-known book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions,"
Thomas Kuhn
pointed out that most scientists, most of the time, are laboring
away at the
details within some generally accepted paradigm, rather than
trying to
disprove the fundamental elements of that paradigm. Only when that
process
reaches its limits unsuccessfully is there the probability of
fundamental
change. But your point is still a good one-properly understood,
the
scientific method should always retain the consciousness that it
is working
with models (representations, in Barfield's lexicon) rather than
reality per
se.
When I talked about the redemption of science from its
materialistic,
reductionist tendencies, you commented: "Science has
"materialistic,
reductionist tendencies" because that is what works. A hypothesis
that
cannot be disproved has no scientific value (although it may be
satisfying
philosophically). So science does not deal with such questions as
whether
God exists, whether there is life after death, or whether there
are various
levels of supernatural beings.
"This is a limitation of science, but it is not something from
which science
must be redeemed."
In using the term "redemption" I was playing with words a bit,
purposely
introducing a term ordinarily associated with religion. But I
really didn't
mean that science should necessarily try to address the big issues
of
theology. The redemption has to do with acknowledging (1) the
limits of
science as it has evolved thus far (in addition to its fantastic
achievements), and (2) the role that human consciousness plays in
the
development of knowledge.
Regarding an hypothesis that cannot be disproved having no
scientific value,
Barfield notes that the hypothesis of uniformitarianism (awkward
name, left
over from the 19th century) is one of the axioms of scientific
investigation.
This is the idea that the laws of nature (if you will allow the
colloquial
use of "laws") always have been and always will be the same as
they are in
our current experience. This doesn't appear to be something that
could be
disproved. Perhaps we could say that is has meta-scientific value,
even
though by its very nature it cannot be considered susceptible to
what we
usually think of as the scientific method.
I wonder also about hypotheses that are untestable for practical
reasons,
such as theories about really small particles (or energy forms)
that would
require an accelerator the size of the solar system to
investigate. This
seems to be an hypothesis with genuine scientific value, even if
it is not
falsifiable. Perhaps this is an example of how science cannot help
but drift
into philosophy (maybe even theology) when it reaches its limits.
You said, "At the same time, science does instill a profound sense
of awe at
the elegance of the natural world, and at the grace and beauty
with which the
universe we perceive fits together. For all its "materialistic,
reductionist
tendencies," I would rate science pretty high on the "love" scale
(in
reference to your other post)."
The vision of science you present here certainly does rank high on
the "love"
scale--that is, the capability to find connections and see the
underlying
wholeness of nature. However, it seems that many practitioners and
fans of
science don't act according to that vision. A few months ago we
had some
discussion here of the quality of opposition that James Lovelock
met when he
first developed his Gaia hypothesis, a set of ideas about the
nature of
Earth's biosphere that requires a coherent, multidisciplinary
viewpoint. He
got precious little "love."
One of my favorite books is "What Is Life," by Margulis and Sagan,
a lyrical
and graphically beautiful presentation of the spectrum of life
from a
contemporary biological perspective. They note that "To the
neo-Newtonians,
the Darwinians, free will had been all but banished from the
universe because
the universe was portrayed as a mechanism and mechanisms do not
have
consciousness." Their own preference is for a largely forgotten
viewpoint
developed by Samuel Butler, a contemporary of Darwin: "The mind
and the body
are not separate but part of the unified process of life. Life,
sensitive
from the onset, is capable of thinking. The 'thoughts' both vague
and clear,
are physical, in our bodies' cells and those of other animals.
Ö Thought,
like life, is matter and energy in flux; the body is its 'other
side.'
Thinking and being are the same thing."
Sound mystical? Wait, there's more: "If one accepts this
fundamental
continuity between body and mind, thought loses any essential
difference from
other physiology and behavior. Thinking, like excreting and
ingesting,
results from lively interactions of a being's chemistry." And:
"Evolution
places us all in the stark but fascinating context of the cosmos.
Although
something odd may lurk behind and before this cosmos, its
existence is
impossible to prove. The cosmos, more dazzling than any sect's
god, is
enough. Life is existence's celebration."
This, for me, is redeemed science. It is also, for me, redeemed
religion,
even though the previous paragraph might strike many religious
people as
being sacrilegious. It's the "flower in a crannied wall" idea. We
don't
need to look elsewhere-its right in front of us and within us.
Which leads right into your next statement: "Personally, I find
science to
be a spiritual pursuit, in that understanding the world in which
we live has
great spiritual value. It's all well and good to say that the
world is the
way it is because God made it that way, but understanding *how*
God did it
can be profoundly spiritual. (Of course, what I think of as God
and what
most Christians think of as God is quite different, but that's
beside the
point.)"
A few weeks ago I attended a session with Malidoma Patrice Some,
who is from
the Dagara tribe of West Africa. The elders of the tribe sent
Malidoma into
Western culture, in order to teach about ritual and community. (He
is rather
well acculturated to our world, having a Ph.D. from the Sorbonne
and another
from Brandeis University.) Experience with the spiritual world is
commonplace in Malidoma's culture. At the session somebody asked
whether
there was conflict between Western science and his experiences. He
said,
"Not at all. Science is just another spiritual path. But not a
very
efficient one."
Not very efficient, I take his meaning, because you can spend a
lifetime
deeply involved with scientific pursuits and still not arrive at
the
perspective represented by the quotation above from Margulis and
Sagan. One
of the reasons I am intrigued by the Goethean approach of direct
conscious
participation in nature, is that it seems to offer a more
efficient path to
deep understanding of the "flower in a crannied wall."
Regarding methods like those of Goethean science, you said, "Yes,
well, I'm
not sure the latter methods would be recognized as "science" in
the generally
accepted meaning of the word, which is a specific method, and not
simply "the
acquisition of knowledge." But regardless, I agree that it is not
"anti-science" to suggest that there is more to reality than the
material
world, or that there are other ways of acquiring knowledge than
the
scientific method."
We certainly have seen resistance here on the WC list to the idea
that the
Goethean approach represents valid science, but there seems to be
an
increasing interest in it among scientists other than those
already involved
with anthroposophy. I would raise the question of why the
techniques of
Goethean science should not be admissable as part of the
scientific method.
I believe it is a common human experience, for scientists and
non-scientists
alike, to have what we call flashes of intuition, to wake up in
the morning
with the solution to a problem that had been troubling to us the
day before,
or even to have dreams that lead to new insight. I have seen
several stories
of major scientific discoveries that developed from such
experiences (e.g.:
the intertwined snakes dream that provided the clue to the double
helix
structure of DNA). If this is the way human consciousness works,
why
shouldn't it be an integral part of the scientific method? Why
shouldn't
there be effort made to school the consciousness in a manner
analogous to the
way we school the rational mind, so that these experiences would
not be so
haphazard?
There probably are those within anthroposophy--and there certainly
are those
among its critics--who view anthroposophical science as a process
of going
into the spiritual world and bringing back insights; and then
treating those
insights as having a special quality of truth because they came
from the
spiritual world. I don't see it that way at all (but you should be
aware
that I may not be much of an anthroposophist). Instead, I see it
as a
process of acquiring new insights by developing a more disciplined
and
sensitive consciousness of the world in which we participate. And
because
most of us are dilettantes at such a process, those insights need
to be
subjected to specially rigorous testing. I think this view of
anthroposophical science makes it an extension of conventional
science.
Again, I appreciate your comments. They have helped me clarify my
own
thinking.
Best regards,
Rigby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 21:47:39 1997
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From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: How to unsubscribe (was: Camphill)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:33:18 +0100
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Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
)Jurgen Schon wrote me:
DUGAN
)I don't want you to leave until we've
)had a chance to talk a bit.
)
SCHON
))Again, please unsubscribe me
Jurgen, since you have obviously lost the relevant information,
and the
list owner is being singularly unco-operative in helping you to
unsubscribe, if I recall correctly you should be able to
unsubscribe
automatically by sending an email to:
waldorf-critics-request lists.best.com
With the single line :
unsubscribe
in the body of the message.
This is now twice Mr Schon has asked Dugan, the list owner, to
unsubscribe him and twice Dugan has refused, keeping Mr Schon here
against his will.
What was it Dugan was saying in the Camphill thread about
"keepers"..?
--
Stephen Tonkin
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 14:07:01 1997
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From: litvas icu.com (Robert Flannery)
Subject: Re: Camphill
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:41:10 -0400
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Dan Dugan has posted recently about Camphill, the anthroposophic
communities for developmentally disabled people.
Dan, what does Camphill have to do with waldorf education or the
objectives
of PLANS?
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Cognitive Dissonance
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:44:04 -0400 (EDT)
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Kathy Sutphen took umbrage at my comment that Dan Dugan was
distorting to the
point of untruth when he said that Waldorf schools maintain
harmony by
evicting those who disagree.
First, let me focus on the part of Kathy's comments that I
consider to be
completely valid. I agree her unequivocally when she says of
herself: "I have
a very limited experience with WaldorfÖ" This is an excellent
point, one
that should be kept in mind when reading any of Kathy's posts.
Also, it
should be realized that when Kathy cites the wrongs that have been
done her
by "Waldorf supporters," in most instances the alleged
perpretrators were her
former co-workers at a public school. In some cases she may be
complaining
about alleged acts by Rudolf Steiner College employees. But in no
case do
they represent experience in, or associated with, a Waldorf
school.
Once we get beyond the statement about her very limited experience
with
Waldorf, I do have some problems with what Kathy had to say.
Before getting
to them, I will answer a couple of questions she raised: "What is
the path
taken at your school when there is dissonance in regard to the
Anthroposophical philosophy driving your curriculum? What do the
administrators do when a parent or student disagrees with Waldorf
pseudoscientific teachings?"
I guess "my school" would be the Sacramento Waldorf School (SWS),
where I am
a past parent and past President of the Board of Trustees. I was
also a
parent at two other Waldorf schools attended by my son-Washington
DC and
Sebastopol, California. I have also attended several conferences
and
seminars at which I became acquainted with issues at other Waldorf
schools.
(I do not have limited experience with Waldorf.)
The questions don't literally apply to SWS. I am unaware of
dissonance in
regard to anthroposophical philosophy underlying the curriculum
("driving" is
too strong a term) and we have not had pseudoscientific teachings
at the
school. I don't know of any instance in which a parent was asked
to withdraw
from the school because of a critical attitude. When I first
became a Board
member we did have several parents who were highly critical of the
school,
but it had to do with administrative performance and strategic
planning.
There were some tense and emotional Board meetings for awhile, but
never was
there the suggestion that a parent should be asked to leave the
school. Much
of the criticism was in fact valid; changes needed to be made and
were made.
)From time to time the school has asked a student not to return.
This has
always been due to behavioral problems, not to issues of pedagogy
or
philosophy. And from time to time we have declined to renew the
contract of
a teacher, but this has been due to deficiencies in classroom
performance,
not to philosophical dissonance.
Dan's statement rang untrue to me for two reasons. First,
"harmony" is not
often a dominant quality in a Waldorf school, except within the
halcyon
confines of the classroom. These are usually small organizations,
struggling
financially, unable (or sometimes unwilling) to afford an adequate
administrative infrastructure, attempting to use an unfamiliar
consensus
approach to decision-making. Under these circumstances they have
to work
hard to keep the organization together, let alone achieve real
harmony. If
the eviction of people with different viewpoints were a matter of
course
there would be no Waldorf schools.
Second, it is fallacious to think that kicking somebody out
increases
harmony. The key players in Waldorf schools are very concerned
with building
community and those who are serious anthroposophists are equally
concerned
about karmic effects of the actions they take. It is a
considerable struggle
for them to reach a decision like terminating an inadequate
employee. In my
judgment Waldorf schools are more likely to err on the side of
injuring the
school by trying to keep somebody in the community who really
doesn't belong
there.
Now, to some of Kathy's other comments, the good stuff, the
accusations:
"You were there on the night of May 15, Rigby, in Sacramento, at
_my_ meeting
with _my_ CTA attorney when Arlene Monk became emotional and
accused me of
being dishonest. Both of you were not invited and had no business
at this
meeting."
Do you have the picture clearly, dear reader? Here is Kathy,
sequestered
with her union attorney ("CTA" is the California Teachers
Association),
earnestly seeking counsel about dealing with the enormities that
her
Waldorf-supporting co-workers have visited upon her, when in
burstÖRigby and
Arline! Dreaded duo of the anthroposophical conspiracy! Arline,
unable to
control herself, points a quivering finger at Kathy and intones,
"Liar, lair,
pants on fire." (We are not told what heinous act Rigby commits on
this
occasion.)
How did Rigby and Arline find out about this private meeting
between Kathy
and her attorney? Did they follow her around, taking photographs?
Well, no,
it turns out that PLANS issued a press release about the meeting,
and posted
a copy right here, on the WC list. And in the press release they
didn't say
anything at all about Kathy and her attorney. They said it was
going to be a
meeting for Dan Dugan to present information about Waldorf
education. Isn't
that a clever way to set up a private meeting with one's attorney?
(Or perhaps this was another instance--like the infamous "transfer
to a desk
job" allegation--in which Kathy was betrayed by a PLANS press
release. If
so, her complaint to me is misdirected.)
And when Rigby and Arline arrived at the appointed time and place
(Rigby was
invited, by the way, but not by Kathy nor her attorney), what did
they find?
Deby, Dan and a group of people waiting to hear Dan's
presentation. The
group included some people from Oak Ridge Elementary School, and
some of
Kathy's co-workers, and some from Rudolf Steiner College, and some
from the
Sacramento Waldorf School--all eager to hear the true story of
Waldorf
education. Deby greeted the group warmly and welcomed them to
Dan's
presentation. She neglected to point out that this was really a
private
meeting between Kathy and her attorney. She failed even to
introduce Kathy
and her attorney.
Dan did in fact make a presentation, complete with many overhead
transparencies. And there was lively discussion afterwards. But we
never
did get to meet Kathy's attorney. Was the attorney even there? Or
does the
attorney exist on the same plane of reality as the desk job to
which Kathy
was transferred by her former employee?
I am tempted to state that Kathy has given an untrue account of
the meeting
on May 15, but that would only add me to that crowd that calls her
a liar.
Instead I will take refuge in the language of Owen Barfield, whose
ideas we
have been discussing here recently. Kathy and I do not share
collective
representations. What she experienced as a private meeting with
her lawyer I
experienced as a group of people listening to Dan make a
presentation. I am
glad I did attend that meeting since it has given me the ability
to calibrate
the extent to which my reality differs from Kathy's. I could not
have
believed it otherwise, and it is a relief to know that I don't
need to be
exercised by what she says about me; or anything else, for that
matter.
Rigby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 03 21:47:13 1997
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Lunar (was: Camphill)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:06:51 -0700
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Herman told a story about a nurse who applied at a Dutch Camphill
institution:
)The management invited her for an interview. Then, she said: "The
manager
)looked at my black hair. He looked at my dark brown eyes. Then,
he looked at
)the chain with the Star of David around my neck. Then, he said:
"I think you
)are too lunar". I did not get the job. I was puzzled. Only later,
I happened
)to read about Anthroposophists associating Judaism with the moon,
in their
)theories of 'planetary qualities' of nations."
)
)Did things like this also happen elsewhere? I certainly hope not!
I hope
)that many Anthroposophists reject this type of behavior. Will it
make them
)more critical of 'planetary qualities' type theories?
Yes, it has happened elsewhere. A teacher who was in the San Diego
charter
training with Lilian Cooper was told her Judaism was incompatible
with
being a Waldorf teacher. [Ask Lilian, she's on the list.] Stanford
scholar
Ray McDermott reported "A Jewish professor looking for alternative
methods
of schooling was told that a Jewish person could not be a Waldorf
teacher."
[McDermott, Ray. "Racism and Waldorf Education." Research
Bulletin. Waldorf
Education Research Institute, Sunbridge College: Vol. 1 No. 2
June, 1996,
p. 4.]
Steiner explained:
"Thus we have two different races of mankind. The one consists of
the
original descendants of the Elohim, the sons of Cain, who are
called the
Sons of Fire. They are those who till the earth and create from
inanimate
nature and transform it through the arts of man ... Abel was a
shepherd. He
held firmly to what he found, he took the world as it was. There
is always
this antithesis between people. One sticks to things as they are,
the other
wants to create new life from the inanimate, through art. ... It
is the
Sons of Fire who have to work into the world the wisdom, beauty
and
goodness from the all-embracing universal throught, in order to
transofrm
the world into a temple.
"Jehovah is also called the God of created form, the God who turns
what
is living into a living force, in contrast with that other Elohim
who
creates by charming life out of what is lifeless. To which of
these does
the future belong? That is the great question of the Temple
Legend. If
mankind were to develop under the religion of Jehovah, all life
would
expire in form. ... [T]he point in time has now arrived when man
himself
must awaken the dead to life. That will happen through the Sons of
Cain,
through those who do not rely on the things around them, but are
themselves
the creators of new forms."
[Steiner, Rudolf. The Temple Legend: Freemasonry and Related
Occult
Movements: Twenty Lectures given in Berlin between 23rd May 1904
and the
2nd January 1906. (1904-1906) Trans. John M. Wood, Edited E.M.
Lloyd.
London: Rudolf Steiner Press, 1985, p. 142]
"To which of these does the future belong?" Whew. We know where
that idea
ended up. And about the moon:
&