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There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. In the School
From: Roger Rawlings
2.1. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: Peter Staudenmaier
2.2. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: Peter Staudenmaier
2.3. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: winters_diana
2.4. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: winters_diana
2.5. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: winters_diana
2.6. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: winters_diana
2.7. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: Zooey
2.8. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: Zooey
2.9. Admin: late messages from Zooey found
From: Dan Dugan
2.10. Re: Admin: late messages from Zooey found
From: Zooey
2.11. Re: Admin: late messages from Zooey found
From: winters_diana
3a. Re: waldorfish tv on the web
From: Zooey
3b. relating to children [was: waldorfish tv on the web]
From: Dan Dugan
3c. Re: waldorfish tv on the web
From: winters_diana
3d. Re: waldorfish tv on the web
From: winters_diana
4. theosophical race doctrines
From: Peter Staudenmaier
5a. Re: Zooey's blog
From: Zooey
5b. Re: Zooey's blog
From: Zooey
6a. Re: What's with the Hand Scratching?
From: Zooey
7a. "The art of avoiding history"
From: Zooey
7b. Re: "The art of avoiding history"
From: Zooey
8. Earthquakes and Reincarnation
From: tmasthenes13
Messages
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1. In the School
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:55 am ((PST))
Hello. The list seems to be hopping. I won't attempt to pick up any of the recent threads.
Instead, I'd like to begin a series of postings that present Rudolf Steiner's own statements
on the goals, nature, and administration of Waldorf schools. I will draw almost exclusively
from the "Foundations of Waldorf Education" series published by the Anthroposophic
Press. Along with the quotes, I'll append my commentary.
For those of you who don't know me: My name is Roger Rawlings. I'm an intermittent
participant here. I attended a Waldorf school for 11 years. I now maintain three Web sites
dealing with Waldorf education and related subjects.
On the (to me) galling subject of wrapped lines: I've adjusted every conceivable parameter
and switched to a different computer, operating system, and word processor. If my
postings still arrive "wrapped," please use the "unwrap lines" option.
Another little prefatory note: Despite appearances, I do not violently disagree with
absolutely everything Steiner ever said or wrote. In writing Steiner-critical essays, I
naturally focus on statements that I find flawed. Perhaps someday I'll pull together a little
list of Steiner statements with which I agree. It will be a short list, and pretty dull, since
everything on it would have to be far removed from Steiner's mysticism, racism, sexism,
astrology, cosmology, arrogance, irrationality, aversion to science, etc. Nonetheless, it is
perfectly true that Steiner made at least as many "good" statements as "bad." He knew
what he should say to various audiences, and he knew what was incumbent on him as a
religious leader. So he often spoke of love, kindness, gentleness, and the like: Good stuff,
all. I, an implacable critic, hereby attest to this. But do, let's say, three statements about
love offset one racist remark? How about ten to one? Fifty? No. I submit the following. a)
We often see Steiner contradict himself. b) Steiner was noticeably more "good" when
talking to a general audience and/or to parents of Waldorf students, than he was when
addressing his followers, including Waldorf teachers. c) No "good" statements can offset
horrific, scurrilous, and utterly nutty statements. The question to ask is, if Steiner was able
to make so many bad statements, how much confidence do you have in him and his
devotees as guides and guardians of the young?
In today's posting, I'll address the abiding question, how throughly is Anthroposophy
present in Waldorf schools? Steiner and his followers have often denied that Waldorfs have
an Anthroposophical agenda. Let's see.
[Waldorf Teachers and the Spirit] Steiner is speaking: "First, teachers must make sure that
they influence and work on their pupils, in a broader sense, by allowing the spirit to flow
through their whole being as teachers, and in the details of their work: how each concept
or feeling is developed." [Rudolf Steiner, DISCUSSION WITH TEACHERS, Foundations of
Waldorf Education (Anthroposophic Press, 1997), p. 180]
Saying that teachers must be attentive to the effects they have on students might, at first
blush, seem uncontroversial. But knowing that we are eavesdropping on Steiner
instructing Waldorf teachers, we should parse his words cautiously. In discussing "spirit,"
Steiner isn't talking about school spirit or any other sort of spirit that would make sense to
rationalists. For him and his followers, the word "spirt" has literal, occult significance.
Anthroposophists believe in the omnipresence of unseen spirit realms (occupied by
multiple gods, demons, and other spiritual powers). So, Steiner says that Waldorf teachers
must not only embody "spirit," they must "allow" "the spirit" to "flow through" them,
meaning they will convey the spirit (i.e., spiritual "truths") to their students. This is not
what a non-Anthroposophical teacher�e.g., a public school teacher�attempts. Waldorf
teachers attempt it with "their whole being." So which approach is best?
Steiner further says Waldorf teachers not only "influence" their students but "work on"
them, conveying both "concepts" and "feelings." As I have argued elsewhere, the sort of
"thinking" imparted by Waldorf education is not intellectual but intuitive and emotional
(i.e., it is not real thinking at all but gauzy wishfulness: see my essays "Unenlightened" and
"Thinking Cap"�ah, the joys of self-promotion). Waldorf teachers "work on" their students
in order to promote such thinking�and they generally do this without explicitly admitting
it. But Steiner, speaking behind closed doors, is less guarded. He is telling Waldorf
teachers that Anthroposophy will be in the school: They are to convey spiritual truths,
which means the doctrines of Anthroposophy. Read on. (Steiner didn't want his followers
to make transcripts of his comments, but they industriously made numerous transcripts,
for which we should be grateful. We can learn what the great man actually opined.)
Farther down on p. 180, Steiner goes on to say: "The teacher must be true in the depths of
being [uh-oh]. Teachers must never compromise with untruth...." Mull this over. "The
depths of being": i.e., teachers' "whole being," i.e., their spiritual selves. "Untruth": What is
this to Anthroposophists? Anything that is contrary to Anthroposophy. So what is Steiner
saying? Anthroposophy will be in the school. (See also Rudolf Steiner, FACULTY MEETINGS
WITH RUDOLF STEINER, Foundations of Waldorf Education (Anthroposophic Press, 1998):
"Anthroposophy will be in the school...." [p. 495.])
[The Dreaming Earth] Let's look more deeply into the Anthroposophical conception of
truth and whether such truth is conveyed to Waldorf students.
A Waldorf teacher suggests that plants may be considered the Earth's dreams. "[Dr.
Steiner]: `But plants during the high summer are not the Earth's dreams, because the Earth
is in a deep sleep in the summer.'" [DISCUSSIONS WITH TEACHERS, p. 129]
I've argued that Waldorf teachers tend to be Anthroposophists or Anthropop fellow
travelers. You need only consider the statements that Waldorf teachers made to Steiner to
see what sorts of folks he wanted to employ. (Or take Steiner's own word for it: Waldorf's
"staff consists of anthroposophists." [Rudolf Steiner, EDUCATION FOR ADOLESCENTS,
Foundations of Waldorf Education (Anthroposophic Press, 1996), p. 60].)
The teacher's suggestion that plants may be the earth's dreams is utterly bizarre�or
would be to rational folks. But not to Steiner. He accepts the question as having meaning,
but�as usual�he corrects the interrogator: Steiner always knew best, in his opinion,
which was the only opinion that counted ("That is incorrect..." "But plants in the
summer...").
As to when the earth is "asleep": Anthropops believe that the Earth is an organism that is
evolving, just as the beings on or under its surface are evolving. "`Just think children, our
Earth feels and experiences everything that happens within it...it has feelings like you
have, and can be angry or happy like you.'" [DISCUSSIONS WITH TEACHERS, p. 132] There's
something attractive in this fantasy. Nowadays, the "Gaia hypothesis" has proponents.
Certainly we need to cherish and protect the Earth. But is our planet an organism that
feels anger and happiness? Steiner said so, so it must be true, hm? And here's a central
point: Note that Steiner is quoting what a Waldorf teacher might say to students ("Just
think, children..."). Steiner is asserting that a Waldorf teacher may feed students junk
science, since what is false for science can be, if Steiner says so, true for
Anthroposophists. Immediately after saying that the Earth "can be angry or happy like
you," Steiner says "In this way you gradually form [i.e., in childrens' minds] a view of life
lived under the Earth during winter. That is the truth. And it is good to tell children these
things. This is something that even materialists could not argue with..." [Ibid., p. 132] I
beg to differ.
Waldorf faculty generally deny that Anthroposophical doctrines are taught to Waldorf
students. Here we see what actually goes on, or should go on, according to the founder of
Waldorf education. Steiner lays out an Anthroposophical tenet (that the Earth is a being
that has emotions) and he says that this tenet can be explicitly conveyed to students. "It is
good to tell children these things." So, then, when will Anthroposophy be in a Waldorf
school? Almost always, both covertly and, less frequently perhaps, overtly.
Pity the poor child who accepts Steiner's lesson and then mouths it ("The earth has
feelings just like us") in a college geology class.
[The Four Temperaments: As we've seen in previous discussions, Steiner adopted the
ancient, unscientific notion of humours: Moreover, he taught that temperament can be
read in a child's body type] "The melancholic children are as a rule tall and slender; the
sanguine are the most normal; those with protruding shoulders are the phlegmatic
children; and those with a short stout build so that the head almost sinks down into the
body are choleric." [DISCUSSIONS WITH TEACHERS, p. 34] Steiner taught that all children
fall into these four categories. Note that the sanguines are "the most normal." In other
words, they are not quite normal, but the members of the other three groups are even less
normal. (This harkens back to an assertion I made some while ago�which occasioned
considerable discussion here�that no temperament, in Steiner's system, is actually
desirable.) To one degree or another, then, all children are abnormal. It's as if Waldorf
schools occupy a sort of Anti-Lake Woebegone, where all the children are below average.
Upshot: Every child (i.e., every human) needs correction. And who do you suppose Steiner
held up as the person to give this correction? Steiner always knew best: When a teacher
said that "the phlegmatic child sits with an open mouth," Steiner rejoined "That is
incorrect; the phlegmatic child will not sit with the mouth open but with a closed mouth
and drooling lips." [p. 30] Well played, sir.
--Roger
P.S. I'm told that the joke I played in my posting about Sun men, Moon men, and so forth,
didn't come off. Comedy is hard. I repeated myself, and shifted meanings, in an effort to
duplicate Steiner's rhetorical style. Didn't work. How did Steiner get away with it? Comedy
is hard.
Messages in this topic (1)
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2.1. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "Peter Staudenmaier" pstaud hotmail.com pstauden
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:22 pm ((PST))
Hi Tom,
thanks for the report. For what it's worth, this description is partly inaccurate:
) First of all, after introducing myself and displaying my
) anthroposophical pedigree, I mentioned your article, Peter, and Jim
) told me some of the background, that your first draft was way too
) polemic for the journal's editorial taste, and that they made you
) rewrite it as you describe above.
That isn't really true, and isn't how peer review normally functions in any case. I think it's important to demystify academic procedures, so perhaps I can give a brief overview of the intricacies of peer review in this instance as a way of explaining why I think Professor Santucci's perspective on this issue -- both my article and his own -- may be somewhat skewed, at least on the basis of what you've reported, Tom. To avoid any confusion here: Professor Santucci is not on the editorial board of Nova Religio. He isn't even on their advisory committee or board of consultants. It is possible that he was one of the outside readers to whom Nova Religio sent my manuscript (a possibility that occurred to me at the time, since one of the reader reports -- which are all 'blind', i.e. anonymous -- sounded like it came from someone like Ellwood or Santucci, and Ellwood wasn't a likely candidate because I name him in the article explicitly and critically), in which case I'd be very intrigued to know more. That particular reader's report was, in my estimation, a classic instance of apologetic defensiveness, and would fit fairly well with Santucci's new article.
In any event, when an editorial board really finds a submission "too polemical" or anything else that doesn't meet their basic standards, they have several options: They can reject it on their own authority; they can send it to outside readers for peer review and see what kind of reports they get back; and based on these reports they can decide either to publish or reject, with a third possibility usually called "revise and resubmit," which is frequently similar to what Santucci evidently described to you. That is not what happened with my manuscript. I did not get a revise and resubmit from Nova Religio. I got an acceptance, a rather emphatic one. In the words of the editor assigned to my article, the peer reviewers "overwhelmingly recommend that this paper be published." It's standard practice to give the full reader reports, whether positive or negative, to the author, and the Nova Religio reports on my submission are indeed overwhelmingly positive. There were six readers (that would be a lot for a history journal, but I don't know what the standard is in relgious studies), and only one of them gave a negative report and recommending against publishing. The other five were very positive, several of them arguing that the piece should appear essentially 'as is' without significant revision.
It is true that I was aked (and readily agreed) to undertake several minor revisions, most of them involving a change or deletion of a single word, in some cases a short phrase. The sense I got was that these changes, in the judgement of the editors themselves, would go a long way toward making the final article more palatable to readers inclined to be sympathetic toward anthroposophy, without altering my argument. Since I don't write with such readers in mind, and am not all that familiar with the relgious studies landscape in the first place, I was glad to accept this sort of advice. I did find several of the specific requests for changes fascinating; for instance, the editor assigned to my article asked me to delete the adjective "convoluted" as a description of Steiner's teachings. To my mind, describing anthroposophical doctrines in this way was hardly a backhanded criticism, but instead a nod toward the complexity and contradiction that run throughout Steiner's works, an important consideration when it come to his racial views in particular. But the term was apparently considered potentially derogatory, and I went ahead and dropped it. The same concern arose with my reference to the "disparate" elements that Theosophy pulled together in its syncretic framework; the editor asked me to drop the adjective "disparate", which I also did. I have to say it had never occurred to me that these words could be read as pejorative, but I'm not generally attached to specific descriptive language, and I am certain that Nova Religio's editors have a much better sense of their readership than I do. None of these changes affected the overall analysis in my article.
Probably the biggest single change, indeed the only even moderately significant one in my view, was the decision to drop the paragraph I had initially included summarizing Besant and Leadbeater's racial teachings (a topic that Santucci's new article, remarkably, does not address at all). The decision to drop the paragraph was mine, not the editors', and there was no pressure from the editors to do so. We had a lot of back and forth about that one paragraph (one of Nova Religio's editors is a Besant expert), and definitely disagreed on several points, but they didn't seem especially relevant to the rest of the article and we were all looking for passages to cut in order to make room for the full German quotes in the footnotes -- one of the best features of the article, I think, and one that I wouldn't have adopted without encouragement from the editors. I eventually decided the Besant/Leadbeater paragraph didn't add anything substantial to the article, and deleting it also made the transition from Blavatsky to Steiner smoother. But it is indeed the case that this one short passage from the original manuscript (one that had nothing to do directly with Steiner or anthroposophy, or even with Blavatsky or Sinnett, but with Beasnt's and Leadbeater's theosophy) was the source of considerable disagreement, and much of that disagreement seems to have revolved around the perception that the tone I adopted toward some theosophical beliefs was inappropriately critical. At least one of the editors wanted me to simply "let the beliefs speak for themselves," an approach I consider quite wrongheaded, but it didn't seem worth arguing over in this limited context.
I don't think Santucci is merely imagining things by claiming that my initial submission was "way too polemical" in the eyes of (some?) Nova Religio editors; I suppose a charitable interpretation is that his depiction of the situation is exaggerated and one-sided, but I have little idea what he based his claim on in the first place. If Santucci was indeed the one negative reader among the six peer reviewers, then he seems not to have given my submission much attention all along; that reader thought that the manuscript I submitted was only a "slightly altered" version of my 2004 Atlanta conference paper of the same title, the one that PLANS had posted for a while. In fact, my submission to Nova Religio was much shorter than that paper, and the central sections were moreover significanly re-arranged; the negative reviewer seems only to have skimmed the actual manuscript. I also think Santucci's invocation of "polemic" is telling in itself. Aside from the fact that my article is not polemical, and was not polemical when I submitted it to Nova Religio, or for that matter when I presented the original paper in Atlanta, I get the strong sense that folks like Santucci and Ellwood (and Versluis and a number of others) have very little sense of what 'polemic' means and where it comes from. Polemic is traditionally understood as the counterpart to, and indeed the antidote to, apologia. As long as there are Santuccis and Ellwoods offering apologias for theosophical race thinking, polemical analyses of theosophical race thinking will remain very much necessary; far from being objectionable, such polemics would rather obviously be a desideratum. In light of that state of affairs, which to my mind ought to be easily comprehensible to anyone familiar with the history of apologia and polemic, it is difficult to understand why people like Santucci evidently consider "polemic" a bad word, some sort of negative thing to be avoided.
It seems to me that you provide a nice metaphor for that very reaction on Santucci's part:
) He then told me of his consternation in reading your article, as far
) as his making a response to it was concerned. From his body language,
) it felt like your article was radioactive and he didn't have a
) lead-lined box to enclose it.
That is exactly the sense of threat and defensiveness that pervades his new article on root-races. As far as I can tell, such readers believe that historical inquiry can actually hurt them in some way, and that they thus need to armor themselves against it, for protection from the dreaded critical gaze of non-believers and historians and the like. You give another revealing example here:
) Now that we were suddenly discussing anthroposophy, I told Jim that I
) had discovered Steiner through reading Ravenscroft's "Spear of
) Destiny" in 1976. That in turn set him off in a defensive way as he
) reassured me that the Nazis did not derive any of their ideas from
) either Blavatsky or Steiner.
That sounds to me like a non sequitur on Santucci's part. (To be fair to both you and him, I am simply relying on what you report here; I recoginze that his position might well be more nuanced if expressed in his own words.) The historically interesting question is not whether some Nazis (which ones?) derived some of their ideas from Blavatsky or Steiner, but the various historical factors that can help account for and illuminate the similarities and parallels between the several varities of racial thinking involved, as well as the differences. There is no need to posit a direct line of influence. But a fundamental defensiveness won't somehow make the whole complicated topic more tidy and re-assuring. It will just make it harder to think about it clearly.
You also noted:
) So, Peter, what might be the next step is for you to write up and post
) a short summary of what issues you have with Elwood and Santucci in
) particular, as well as the issues you have with the whole theosophical
) and anthroposophical race question in general.
My perspective on the whole question in general is fairly straightforward. I think that both theosophical and anthroposophical race doctrines contain prominent racist elements (there are also non-racist and tendentially anti-racist elements in each as well), and that these racist elements are not peripheral to the respective worldviews as such, but are central to theosophical and anthroposophical conceptions of cosmic progress, individual spiritual advancement, karma, reincarnation, spiritual evolution, the correspondence between the higher spiritual realms and the physical plane, and the relation between the human and the divine. I think that latter-day admirers of theosophy and/or anthroposophy would do well to confront this racist legacy head-on instead of pretending that it doesn't exist. So far, both Ellwood and Santucci, in my estimation, have done just the opposite by attempting desperately to re-assure fellow theosophical enthusiasts that there's nothing to worry about, the whole race thing is overblown and largely the invention of unrelenting critics of alternative spiritual traditions who have moreover misunderstood what Blavatsky/Steiner/fill-in-the-blank-with-your-favorite-Initiate 'really meant' in the first place. The accounts of theosophical race theory that Ellwood, Santucci et al provide are both thoroughly decontextualized and devoid of any detailed analysis or even reconstruction of the actual teachings on race that Blavatsky and Sinnett and their heirs promulgated. If you'd like, I could point to a couple of striking examples from Santucci's new article, though I would also very much like to hear from other readers who eventually have an opportunity to read that article. In the meantime, I can post a selection of passages on race from central theosophical texts to give a sense of what I mean concretely. I will try to do that as soon as I attempt a brief look at the other side of this particular coin, on a theme that Diana has raised very perceptively several times now. More on that in a moment.
Peter S.
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2.2. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "Peter Staudenmaier" pstaud hotmail.com pstauden
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:11 pm ((PST))
Hi Diana,
you've brought up several times a topic that I think is very important, and I keep meaning to get back to it. You wrote most recently:
) It's a shame somebody who's chair of a department of comparative
) religion is averse to seeing a religion criticized. It doesn't make
) any sense to me - I took a number of religion courses in college and
) I don't recall any sense that professors were apologists or advocates
) for particular religions. History or philosophy of religion courses
) were really meaty assessments of all kinds of controversial,
) difficult topics. Times have changed. Didn't universities used to be
) about critical thinking?
At the risk of sounding like I'm defending this sort of thing (I imagine that risk is low on this list), I think there are some contextual factors that might play a role here. For one thing, there aren't that many academics who study modern esoteric traditions in the first place, or who even take such topics seriously as a legitimate area for research. Many academics, and not just in history departments, have a very hard time believing that subjects like theosophy or anthroposophy merit any significant scholarly attention at all. These worldviews and movements can seem so marginal and so wacky that it's often hard to convince scholars who are not already specialists in the area to give the topic extended consideration or to try to examine what broader cultural or historical resonance they might have. What this often leads to is a situation where the few people who do make the effort to work with theosophical and other esoteric sources are very frequently adherents or active sympathizers with one of the particular traditions at issue, and thus those are the people who eventually rise to the (very few) academic positions where such traditions do receive more than cursory scholarly treatment. The same dynamic doesn't apply nearly as often, I think, to mainstream religious perspectives and established traditions. In addition, because there is so much pre-existing indifference, puzzlement, or even hostility toward efforts to make such doctrines central to research or teaching, it can have a sort of reinforcing effect on those who do stick to these topics and encourage them to adopt an even more sympathetic and protective attitude toward their subject.
There are definitely exceptions to this trend -- including Hanegraaff, Zander, Hammer, and several others whose work I have recommended in the past -- and they sometimes end up being seen by other colleagues in 'esoteric studies' circles as being excessively distanced toward their subjects. I think Hanegraaff is probably the one who has managed to balance this set of conflicting expectations the best. My own perspective is somewhat unusual because I am so far ensconced in a historians environment and don't have plans to join the esoteric studies contingent, even though my current research is heavily indebted to several of the figures I've named. I also don't foresee myself stiking to occultism as central topic for much of the rest of my historical research; I still hope to return eventually to the themes of left-right crossover, Nazi and fascist interest in environmentalism, and so forth that got me sucked into this particular area in the first place. In any case, as I've tried to indicate there are many worthwhile things to be learned about the broader field of western esotericism from all of these scholars, even the ones whose work on race I have criticized. I think theosophically-oriented racial doctrines throw some of those folks for a loop (particularly Ellwood, Santucci, and Versluis, among others), and raise a very interesting case where a basically sympathetic and protective approach to one's topic is decidedly out of place. It will take time to sort through a lot of these issue within scholarly forums. The scene may well look very different fifteen years from now. But who knows.
You also noted earlier:
) I'm not terribly surprised to hear this; plenty of academics are woo
) woo-inclined themselves and I can well imagine are made "uneasy" by
) your research. (There are plenty of academics with kids in Waldorf
) schools.)
That's for sure. This might be one of the things that eventually makes Sune's wish come true and "derails" my academic career, such as it is. I make a point of distinguishing my popular work from my scholarly work, for a wide variety of reasons (one of the chief reasons, very briefly, is that I think the task of any historian is to figure out what the available historical record tells us, and doesn't tell us, and deal with that however it happens to fall out; once we've got the full spectrum of evidence on the table, then we can begin making decisions about what sort of responses might be ethically or politically responsible; it's a mistake to turn that process around), and in my non-academic work I am forthright about criticizing what I see as some of the major shortcomings of the ideological and institutional descendents of the figures I study. That rankles a lot of people, inside and outside of the academy. I think that a lot of this dynamic is likely to calm down as movements like anthroposophy slowly undergo the difficult process of moving from the esoteric to the exoteric; Waldorf's unsteady position between those two poles is one of main reasons for much of the controversy surrounding it. But in any event, compelling historical arguments are in many contexts supposed to make people uneasy, so the fact that some of my potential colleagues don't like the trajectory of my work is not by itself a good reason to alter that trajectory.
Speaking of which, I gotta get back to that dissertation now....
Peter S.
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2.3. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:13 pm ((PST))
I wrote:
)I took a number of religion courses in college and I don't recall
)any sense that professors were apologists or advocates for
)particular religions. History or philosophy of religion courses were
)really meaty assessments of all kinds of controversial, difficult
)topics. Times have changed.
and Peter made some very interesting remarks on this as well as
several other things which I will come back to but not tonight. But
I'll mention that after I wrote this I actually reconsidered - I
wondered whether I may really be completely misremembering this.
I was trying to remember more about these courses, and went to look
at my college's current religious studies course listing to jog my
memory; the program is certainly different in fascinating ways from
when I was there 25 years ago, but one way in which it is *not*
different is that there's absolutely nothing on "alternative" or
esoteric religions. The big meaty courses I took were on Christianity
and Judaism and Islam. (I remember there was a very popular course on
Jewish mysticism, but I didn't take that.)
Anyway in saying none of the professors had biases or were apologists
for this or that religion I probably simply have no idea what I am
saying. I didn't really know anything, and they could probably have
based me over the head with their biases without my noticing. (You
know, education is wasted on the young . . .)
Diana
Messages in this topic (30)
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2.4. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:15 pm ((PST))
)What this often leads to is a situation where the few people who do
)make the effort to work with theosophical and other esoteric sources
)are very frequently adherents or active sympathizers with one of the
)particular traditions at issue, and thus those are the people who
)eventually rise to the (very few) academic positions where such
)traditions do receive more than cursory scholarly treatment.
Makes sense. That would appear to be the case with someone like Jane
Hipolito.
Messages in this topic (30)
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2.5. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:30 pm ((PST))
)(I remember there was a very popular course on Jewish mysticism, but I
)didn't take that.)
And the more I recall of this, I'm pretty sure it was a hugely
sympathetic appraisal of Jewish mysticism. (I'm recalling this because
Jewish mysticism seems to be oddly in vogue all over the place again,
not just with Jews.) The course I took on Islam, it seems likely to me
that this was quite sympathetic also though my memory is dim on the
specifics.
Messages in this topic (30)
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2.6. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:42 pm ((PST))
This looks like it would cover esoteric movements somewhere, but
lumped in with fundamentalism, radical Islam etc. (There are a bunch
of other courses that purport to address the clash of fundamentalist
religious fervor with modernity; this looks like the only one to
address "cults".)
"The Sociology of Religious Movements"
Contrary to the expectations (and hopes) of some, religion persists
and even thrives. How does sociology account for the death and
resurrection of religious fervor in the age of global capitalism?
What accounts for the rise of contemporary fundamentalist movements
around the globe? In this age of cults, charisma, and eschatological
ecstasy, what can be said of the traditional relationship between
religion, social transformation, and movements of political
liberation? How do contemporary religious movements confront the
challenges posed by feminism and queer theory? How does religion
intersect with racial and caste hierarchies? Drawing on cases from
various religious traditions and movements, this course will use the
tools of sociological analysis to investigate the soul and form of
contemporary religious life.
reading list -
Thomas Robbins, CULTS, CONVERTS, AND CHARISMA: THE SOCIOLOGY OF NEW
RELIGIOUS MOVEMENTS Martin Marty & Scott Appleby, THE GLORY AND THE
POWER: THE FUNDAMENTALIST CHALLENGE TO THE MODERN WORLD Anson Shupe &
Jeffrey Hadden, THE POLITICS OF RELIGION AND SOCIAL CHANGE Robert
Wuthnow, MEANING AND MORAL ORDER: EXPLORATIONS IN CULTURAL ANALYSIS
Ursula King, RELIGION AND GENDER Gary Comstock & Susan Henking, QUE(E)
RYING RELIGION: A CRITICAL ANTHOLOGY Timothy Fulop and Albert
Raboteau, AFRICAN-AMERICAN RELIGION: INTERPRETIVE ESSAYS IN HISTORY
AND CULTURE Thomas Robbins and Dick Anthony, IN GODS WE TRUST: NEW
PATTERNS OF RELIGIOUS PLURALISM IN AMERICA N.J. Demerath, Peter Hall,
Terry Schmitt, Rhys Williams, SACRED COMPANIES: ORGANIZATIONAL
ASPECTS OF RELIGION AND RELIGIOUS ASPECTS OF ORGANIZATIONS
Messages in this topic (30)
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2.7. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:03 pm ((PST))
Oh, Diana, I was just going to tell you how Sune is VERY eager to know why/if there's an increase in activity at wasso. He thinks it's you who got the "hickups". His second guess is that !'m involved.
What's interesting though is how he thinks that he should be admitted on wasso since YOU think he's a "victim" of some sorts of anthroposophy. I said, membership isn't really dependant on Diana (or me or any other critic) thinking he's deluded (even if I think that's probably the case), but on HIS relationship with waldorf/anthroposophy. And that's definately not the wasso-type.
But I second Diana on the outing-issue. I won't hesitate. Because I think it's a danger to people, this false friendship thing. Sune is a funny guy, but beware.
-z
winters_diana (diana.winters verizon.net) wrote: I'll say on list something I've recently said to several offline.
Since I'm in favor of openness and honesty it seems only right . . .
It is my opinion that Sune Nordwall is not entitled to privacy in
his communications with critics of Waldorf and anthroposophy. While
I would not generally post private mail I receive from anyone
without their permission, there are a few exceptions, and Sune
Nordwall is one. He is a public activist. When he aims to manipulate
or influence people behind the scenes, those who are harassed by him
in this way have a right to "out" him every time.
In my opinion. Fair warning Sune - you are famous for this now -
whether it's ontacting people's schools, offering false friendship
to young people who have the nerve to say anything bad in public
about their Waldorf education, or your bizarre fantasy that you can
somehow derail Peter S.'s academic career, or your repeated attempts
to join the survivors list where you know you are not welcome,
realize that I and others are going to out you in the future.
Diana
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2.8. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:03 pm ((PST))
Yeah, cosmical forces will sort it out; Sune just likes to know he helps cosmos along. Pointing in the direction of liars like me.
I'm not sure if the only thing Sune lacks is familiarity with the academic world. I think he pretty much lacks familiarity with any world beyond anthroposophy. He sometimes seem to attack Peter's writing in a similar way that he attacks waldorf eye witness accounts like mine. I mean, there are differences, but similarities too. It's as if he doesn't realize there's a difference, and he isn't able to respond appropriately. (Only to illustrate how his confusion isn't limited to the world of academics or to the boundaries between academia and polemics, or what it was Peter once tried to clarify for him.)
Besides, he's been repeating his repertoire at every chance. The few writers who have dealt with anthroposophy here in Sweden have had their fair share. But, like Peter, they can counter his arguments. However, for the people who had personal waldorf experience, the behaviour Sune displays can be intimidating. (And having been involved in waldorf or anthroposophy, we are iften familiar with intimidation and creepy people.)
I'm sure he wants to shut a lot of people up (but then, where would the fun and meaning in his life go ;)) and I'm sure he would be happy if he could derail someone's career (although I think that's completely beyond his capabilities to do). When it doesn't work, he claims people are liars and make him sick, and he moves on to another "victim".
What frightens me is that he probably occasionally accomplishes this. He intimidates people by sending masses of "evidence" of this or that, and the recipients might feel just overwhelmed. In particular if they're recently out of waldorf, or telling their story for the first time. Let's say he attacks someone here in Sweden - it's not selfevident that this person would know to check Sune's activities on an international level, so to speak. We don't have a PLANS. People might think he's some local nutjob.
One reason I publicized Sune's correspondance to me was that it could assist in (possibly) making him known, and expose his methods a bit. Who he attacked (almost everyone lol) was secondary, as was what he wrote (because there were no major novelties really - with some exceptions, though). I hate being aware that he wants to silence critics - because I think the vulnerable state that waldorf and anthroposophy leaves people in, may make verbal abuse and mail-bombing from people like Sune hard to endure. I don't think he any longer imagines he can influence me, though. (I predict he will eventually give up project zooey, and say I make him sick because I've lied so much ;))
-zooey, liar
winters_diana (diana.winters verizon.net) wrote:
Peter:
)I think part of Sune's peculiar obsession with me is due simply to
)a lack of familiarity with the academic world. It's probably not
)even so much that Sune hopes to derail my academic career, but that
)he believes I am going to derail my own academic career by being
)openly critical of one of the movements I study. He may even end up
)being right about that. I am much less interested in an academic
)career than I am in accurate historical analysis. I think that is a
)big part of what befuddles so many anthroposophists about the
)public aspects of my research. Thanks as always for your replies,
I'm not terribly surprised to hear this; plenty of academics are woo
woo-inclined themselves and I can well imagine are made "uneasy" by
your research. (There are plenty of academics with kids in Waldorf
schools.)
My comments about/to Sune aren't just about his perseverative
attempts to derail *your* efforts, however - though I do
think "derail" is the word, rather imagining you'll derail
yourself . . . - Zooey, for instance, is just his latest project -
this stuff goes on all the time. He apparently doesn't know how many
of us compare notes, world-wide, and are familiar with his multiple
aliases, not to mention his, er, distinctive prose style (at least
in English), and some of his efforts to track his ideological
opponents in cyberspace.
It was only a matter of time till he started stalking Zooey around
the web and trying to involve himself in her life in the real world
in inappropriate ways.
While I'm at it I would also like to say this to Sune: I agree with
something Zooey wrote on her blog: you'd do the public face of
anthroposophy far greater good if you'd switch your focus to
proselytizing in a positive fashion for anthroposophy rather than
engaging in these Tweedle Dum/Tweedle Dee comic cyberduels. Why
don't you beef up your many web sites and blogs with more solid,
detailed information about what anthroposophy is, what it stands
for, why should anyone be interested in it, how does it help people?
So somebody (zooey) posts a blog describing her bad experiences in a
Waldorf school. There are more than a few people who have had these
bad experiences, as I believe you well understand. If any of the
stories aren't true, people will find out the truth, Sune. The
cosmos will sort it all out and if the Zooey's and Peter
Staudenmaier's of the world are liars and frauds and crooks, their
karma will catch up with them anyway. Why don't you do anthroposophy
a favor and *act* spiritual and then maybe people will believe
anthroposophy is a true spiritual movement that good things come out
of. You convince people of the opposite with your behavior.
Diana
---------------------------------
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2.9. Admin: late messages from Zooey found
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 8:30 am ((PST))
Last night I checked our Yahoo spam bin, and there were several
messages from Zooey languishing in there. I set them free. Sorry I
didn't check it sooner.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
Messages in this topic (30)
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2.10. Re: Admin: late messages from Zooey found
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 8:59 am ((PST))
Oh, how weird. Why do they end up there? Something I can do to prevent it?
Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote: Last night I checked our Yahoo spam bin, and there were several
messages from Zooey languishing in there. I set them free. Sorry I
didn't check it sooner.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
---------------------------------
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2.11. Re: Admin: late messages from Zooey found
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 10:00 am ((PST))
Moderators of yahoo groups have to remember to check the web site
periodically for messages in limbo (sometimes misidentified as spam,
sometimes other reasons), and also check the "bouncing" category for
members - members may not know they are bouncing, just wondering why
they aren't getting any messages. (The corollary to this is people
who don't see their messages show up shouldn't assume they are being
held up on purpose for some reason; it is usually just misdirected
internet traffic. The wonder is *most* of them go through . . .)
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Zooey (skottehund ...) wrote:
)
) Oh, how weird. Why do they end up there? Something I can do to
prevent it?
)
)
)
) Dan Dugan (dan ...) wrote: Last
night I checked our Yahoo spam bin, and there were several
) messages from Zooey languishing in there. I set them free. Sorry
I
) didn't check it sooner.
)
) -Dan Dugan
) Moderator
)
)
)
)
)
) ---------------------------------
) Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo!
for Good
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
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3a. Re: waldorfish tv on the web
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:47 pm ((PST))
Yes, that walking in/out first (and always leading the way when you're outside) is sort of in the same league with other crazy advice like always eating something before the dog gets its food... (Take a cracker - for humans - and eat it over the dog's food bowl - then the dog will know he gets only leftovers... That's the *best* method of applying the eat-first-rule, I hear. Maybe I should be thankful our waldorf teachers didn't follow this procedure ;) And I always feed my dog first, and he always gets rewarded for begging... total anarchy!)
I usually say to those dominance-oriented people (dog owners), let the wisest lead the pack. Often that's the dog. At least in my case :D
If I did the ignore-for-2-weeks-routine with my dog, he would say: "goodbye! bark when you're funny again! I'll go hunt rabbits now!" He's a bit like a cat sometimes, not afraid to walk away if prospects look better somewhere else (and due to simple curiosity, they often do...)
But to not go completely OT, the contact avoidance techniques must be very harmful (and alienating) to kids too. How many kids would actually try harder and increase their efforts? I think many, or most, just give up.
I think this pretty much decribes teachers in waldorf, and now I don't mean just theoreticallly (thinking about their view on things), but also from my personal experience. Not even teachers that I felt were ok (in comparison to the total nutties) responded to the kids. It was as if they were mentally gone. I always thought this was due to their "spiritual activities" that lead them to be abscent, but maybe it was just a technique, as in them having learnt they were to distance themselves like this, because it's the proper way to raise children (according to their weird standards)? That it wasn't their own mental states that prohibited them from the mental participation, but rather a conscious choice in how to deal with children. Maybe they didn't have to make an effort to stay in the context (spirits calling upon them or something ;)), but that they made an effort to stay out of it.
Well. I just don't understand how they were all like that. They can't have all been talking to butterflies all the time, after all. The gym teacher wasn't an anthroposophist. He responded like a normal human being to the kids. In my other second school I realized all teachers were like my old gym teacher. Hardly a coincidence.
-z
winters_diana (diana.winters verizon.net) wrote:
I agree - that sounds like a very unkind thing to do to a dog. I
have a cat who's very much like dogs in needing approval and
acknowledgment - I can't begin to imagine ignoring him - I think it
would make any animal first bewildered then very depressed.
I had a very difficult dog for a short while (it didn't work out -
Debra remembers; it was a sad experience, we ended up giving him
back to rescue where we got him, and he was re-adopted, so it had a
more or less happy ending). We got a lot of dog training advice
including the forceful, "break them" school of thought. I recall
being told to always go through doorways (or openings of any sort,
gates, car doors etc) before the dog - never let the dog precede me
through any doorway. I tried this for awhile and it was insane; it
took half an hour to go inside my house (you were supposed to keep
repeating it if the dog attempted to lead). I heard all the
arguments about how the dog *wants* the human to take the lead, but
I just couldn't deal with this. I realized I really didn't *want* an
animal who spent all day trying to either dominate me or force me to
dominate him.
This is why I love cats, who feel no need to dominate me in any way -
both they and I understand that they are superior beings whose every
whim humans should cater to, and therefore we get along great.
Sorry off topic!
Diana
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3b. relating to children [was: waldorfish tv on the web]
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:18 pm ((PST))
Zooey, you wrote,
)I think this pretty much decribes teachers in waldorf, and now I
)don't mean just theoreticallly (thinking about their view on
)things), but also from my personal experience. Not even teachers
)that I felt were ok (in comparison to the total nutties) responded
)to the kids. It was as if they were mentally gone. I always thought
)this was due to their "spiritual activities" that lead them to be
)abscent, but maybe it was just a technique, as in them having learnt
)they were to distance themselves like this, because it's the proper
)way to raise children (according to their weird standards)? That it
)wasn't their own mental states that prohibited them from the mental
)participation, but rather a conscious choice in how to deal with
)children. Maybe they didn't have to make an effort to stay in the
)context (spirits calling upon them or something ;)), but that they
)made an effort to stay out of it.
In the current edition of -Gateways: A Newsletter of the Waldorf
Early Childhood Association of North America-, Trice Atchison & Susan
Weber wrote:
"Ute Strub of the Emmi Pikler Haus in Germany, a foster care home for
neglected and abused children, described a Waldorf teacher who had
come to observe care at the home. Like many others, she wished to
know why the caregiver spoke to the baby about caregiving activities,
since the Waldorf approach uses fewer words with young children. At
the end of her observation, the teacher said that she had come full
circle in answering her own question as she grasped the value of the
connection created through this purposeful, respectful, and soothing
manner of speaking. A future article will elaborate on the reasons
for, and manner of, verbally engaging with young children during
caregiving activities such as bathing, feeding, and diapering." ["Two
Streams Entwined: Striving to Understand the Work of Emmi Pikler and
Magda Gerber in Relation to Waldorf Education," p. 30.]
Exposure to a more humane system reformed the thinking of one
Waldorf-trained teacher. Let us hope that the trend continues.
-Dan Dugan
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3c. Re: waldorfish tv on the web
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:51 pm ((PST))
zooey:
)advice like always eating something before the dog gets its food...
)(Take a cracker - for humans - and eat it over the dog's food bowl -
)then the dog will know he gets only leftovers...
Oh, good god, that sounds awful, and I can tell you my cats would
never stand for it. They would be *humiliated*. The very first rule
is respecting their inherent great dignity.
Now I don't mean that I let them eat first on purpose either - it
would just never occur to me to get into a struggle about it. I mean,
we don't eat the same food :)
)But to not go completely OT, the contact avoidance techniques must
)be very harmful (and alienating) to kids too. How many kids would
)actually try harder and increase their efforts? I think many, or
)most, just give up.
I think that's human psychology - not just kids - as well as animals.
)Not even teachers that I felt were ok (in comparison to the total
)nutties) responded to the kids. It was as if they were mentally
)gone. I always thought this was due to their "spiritual activities"
)that lead them to be abscent, but maybe it was just a technique, as
)in them having learnt they were to distance themselves like this,
)because it's the proper way to raise children (according to their
)weird standards)?
Well, speaking from my time in the preschool, I can definitely attest
that the distant, detached attitude was cultivated. Experienced
teachers instill it in junior teachers. I was constantly in trouble
for talking too much to the kids, being too friendly, too informal,
too involved in their games, chatting and basically hanging out
rather than acting like a grand authority figure.
Not all Waldorf teachers are cold fish, but there is no doubt at all
that a detached style of relating to the kids is cultivated.
(More on Peter's interesting posts soon. gotta turn in early tonight.)
Diana
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3d. Re: waldorfish tv on the web
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:57 pm ((PST))
I wrote:
)there is no doubt at all that a detached style of relating to the kids
)is cultivated.
Thinking a little more about this, I think one way it is cultivated is
that junior teachers are themselves treated coldly and judgmentally by
senior teachers - in the kindergartens, I too was treated more or less
like a child - a child under the eye of a grim and easily displeased
authority figure. I was made very self-conscious about trivia such as
how to sit in the chair, how to walk, correct gestures, you know, move
more slowly, don't cross your legs etc., watch my language carefully
and don't use slang, kind of like a very bossy elderly aunt who's
constantly criticizing your posture or disapproves of your haircut and
pretty soon you're twitching just at the thought of visiting her? I
would get focused on these superficial things, knowing I was being
watched, and become too self-conscious and anxious to get involved in
an easy way with the kids anyway.
Diana
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4. theosophical race doctrines
Posted by: "Peter Staudenmaier" pstaud hotmail.com pstauden
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:49 pm ((PST))
In my reply to Tom I mentioned a cross-section of theosophical teachings on race; most of these passages simply do not appear in apologetic accounts by sympathetic scholars. Here are a number of examples. This is merely a small selection of theosophical writings on race; there is lots more where this came from.
In many ways the founding scripture of modern spiritual-racial theory is H. P. Blavatsky's three-volume magnum opus The Secret Doctrine (1888/1893). (James Santucci's new article points out that A. P. Sinnett's previous book Esoteric Buddhism is another important source, an assessment with which I largely agree, but for the moment I will stick to figures such as Blavatsky, Besant, and Leadbeater.) Much of volume two of The Secret Doctrine is devoted to the themes of racial evolution, racial progress, and racial decline. This is the proximate origin of the root-race theory that Steiner later adopted into anthroposophy. Blavatsky assigned a central role to "racial divisions" within esoteric thought, and traced the evolution of the "root-races" of humankind, explaining how the third root race, the Lemurians, gave way to the fourth root race, the Atlanteans, out of whom the currently predominant fifth root race grew, the Aryans. Throughout the book she identifies "our Aryan Root-Race" with Europeans (e.g. vol. II p. 8). According to theosophical doctrine, the time of the Lemurians and Atlanteans has long since passed, but stragglers of these superceded races remain on earth. Blavatsky writes that "the evolution of the races has ever proceeded in a series of rises and falls" (II 761), and notes that at each major juncture in the cosmic cycle, "accounts will be settled and squared between the races." (I 27) Among the prominent themes of the book are the ostensible differences between races. "All races have their own cycles, which fact causes a great difference." (II 155) Blavatsky expands upon the topic in several ways:
"We have spoken of seven Races, five of which have nearly completed their earthly career, and have claimed that every Root-Race, with its sub-races and innumerable family divisions and tribes, was entirely distinct from its preceding and succeeding Race." (II 462) "The Human Races are born one from the other, grow, develop, become old, and die. Their sub-races and nations follow the same rule." (II 463)
Blavatsky repeatedly emphasizes the "great differences between the intellectual capacities of races" (II 332), and explains that the yellow, brown, black, and red races are relics of those Atlanteans who did not evolve further into Aryans (II 367). She refers to Africans as the "degenerate descendents" of the Atlanteans (II 447), and maintains that "the present yellow races are the descendants, however, of the early branches of the Fourth Race", whereas the "degenerated Australians" are descended from the Lemurians (II 209). In contrast, "the 'cream' of the Fourth Race gravitated more and more toward the apex of physical and intellectual evolution," eventually producing "the nascent Fifth (the Aryan) Race" (II 209, parenthesis in original).
Thus while a small minority of Atlanteans evolved into Aryans and produced "the Northern stocks", the numerous "yellow and red, brown and black" peoples represent "the remnants of the Atlanteans", and these "undeveloped tribes and families of the Atlantean stock fell gradually into a still more abject and savage condition." (II 786) Peoples with "more Aryan blood" conquered those with less (II 789).
Alongside these unfortunate non-white people, leftovers of the obsolete Atlantean race, there are also a few vestiges of the third root race, the Lemurians, among modern humans. Blavatsky says that the Tasmanians, Australian aborigines, and other indigenous peoples are "descendants of these half-animal tribes or races, both of remote Lemurian and Lemuro-Atlantean origin." (II 205) She continues:
"There are, however, considerable numbers of the mixed Lemuro-Atlantean peoples produced by various crossings with such semi-human stocks -- e.g. the wild men of Borneo, the Veddhas of Ceylon, classified by Prof. Flower among Aryans (!), most of the remaining Australians, Bushmen, Negritos, Andaman Islanders, etc." (II 206; the parenthetical exclamation point is Blavatsky's.)
Blavatsky characterizes "the Australian savages" as "lower tribes" descended from "human monsters" (II 203), and consigns them, along with "some African and Oceanic tribes", to "the inferior races" (II 171). She depicts Africans, Australians, and South Sea Islanders as "the lowest specimens of humanity", saddled with "brains devoid of intellect" (II 177). This theme appears throughout the work:
"The survivors of those later Lemurians, who escaped the destruction of their fellows when the main continent was submerged, became the ancestors of a portion of the present native tribes. Being a very low sub-race, begotten originally of animals, of monsters, whose very fossils are now resting miles under the sea floors, their stock has since existed in an environment strongly subjected to the law of retardation. Australia is one of the oldest lands now above the waters, and in the senile decrepitude of old age, its 'virgin soil' notwithstanding. It can produce no new forms, unless helped by new and fresh races, and artificial cultivation and breeding." (II 207)
By no means did Blavatsky shy away from drawing the conclusions built in to her racial logic. Here are several central passages, also from volume two of The Secret Doctrine:
"The Malays and Papuans are a mixed stock, resulting from the intermarriages of the low Atlantean sub-races with the seventh sub-race of the Third Root-Race. Like the Hottentots, they are of indirect Lemuro-Atlantean descent. It is a most suggestive fact -- to those concrete thinkers who demand a physical proof of Karma -- that the lowest races of men are now rapidly dying out; a phenomenon largely due to an extraordinary sterility setting in among the women, from the time that they were first approached by the Europeans. A process of decimation is taking place all over the globe among those races whose 'time is up' -- among just those stocks, be it remarked, which Esoteric Philosophy regards as the senile representatives of lost archaic nations. It is inaccurate to maintain that the extinction of a lower race is invariably due to cruelties or abuses perpetrated by colonists. Change of diet, drunkenness, etc., have done much; but those who rely on such data as offering an all-sufficient explanation of the crux, cannot meet the phalanx of facts now so closely arrayed." (II 824)
"Redskins, Eskimos, Papuans, Australians, Polynesians, etc. -- all are dying out. Those who realize that every Root-Race runs through a gamut of seven sub-races with seven branchlets, etc., will understand the 'why'. The tide-wave of incarnating Egos has rolled past them to harvest experience in more developed and less senile stocks, and their extinction is hence a Karmic necessity." (II 825)
Describing the Lemurian age, Blavatsky declares:
"There were civilized people and savages in those days as there are now. Evolution achieved its work of perfection on the former, and Karma its work of destruction on the latter. The Australians and their like are the descendants of those who, instead of vivifying the Spark projected into them by the 'Flames,' extinguished it by long generations of bestiality. Whereas the Aryan nations could trace their descent through the Atlanteans from the more spiritual races of the Lemurians, in whom the 'Sons of Wisdom' had personally incarnated." (II 331-332)
She goes on to explain: "This would account for the variation and great difference between the intellectual capacities of races, nations, and individual men." (II 332) For Blavatsky, the Aryans represent "the final adjustment of the human organism, which became perfect and symmetrical only in the Fifth Race." (II 307) In a crucial passage, The Secret Doctrine sums up the significance of these vast differences among races:
"Mankind is obviously divided into God-informed men and lower human creatures. The intellectual difference between the Aryan and other civilized nations and such savages as the South Sea Islanders is inexplicable on any other grounds. No amount of culture, no generations of training amid civilization, could raise such human specimens as the Bushmen, the Veddhas of Ceylon, and some African tribes, to the same intellectual level as the Aryans, the Semites, and the Turanians so-called. The 'Sacred Spark' is missing in them, and it is they who are the only inferior races on the globe, now happily -- owing to the wise adjustment of Nature which ever works in that direction -- fast dying out. Verily mankind is 'of one blood,' but not of the same essence." (II 439)
To underscore the point, Blavatsky assigns a central role to "racial divisions" within esoteric thought:
"Though all [people] were of one common origin, yet, for reasons given, their potentialities and mental capabilities, outward or physical forms, and future characteristics, were very different. Some superior, others inferior, to suit the Karma of the various reincarnating Monads, which could not all be of the same degree of purity in their last births in other Worlds. This accounts for the difference of races, the inferiority of the savage and other human varieties." (II 259)
There is no shortage of other passages in The Secret Doctrine, and I have not even mentioned the book's discussion of Jews. For now, however, let's turn to later theosophical works. After Blavatsky's death, leading theosophists in several countries continued to develop her racial theories, tied as always to the theosophical narrative of spiritual progress. In their 1913 book Man: Whence, How and Whither, Annie Besant and C.W. Leadbeater describe the process of divinely supervised selection whereby the "Aryans" were developed out of earlier racial forms. According to their narrative, "Lord Vaivasvata, the Race Manu" of the fifth root race, selected his Aryan breeding stock over a period of hundreds of thousands of years:
"It was rather like looking over a flock of sheep, and choosing the most
suitable. Of these, numbers would be dropped out on the way, and the
selection would be thus narrowed down from time to time."
The initial core of the future Aryans was a "white sub-race" which was
carefully "purified" and from which only "the best types" were preserved.
Eventually this process of racial breeding produced "the Aryan Root-Race",
which was "fine and pure" and segregated on "the White Island" where it
built great temples to the "Aryan Mysteries". These early Aryans promoted "a
brotherhood of Race" and kept all other racial groups at a distance.
In his entry on "Races" in the theosophical collection Extracts from the Vahan (London 1904; pp. 671-3), Leadbeater described the formation of "our
own Aryan race" as a process whereby "the best-developed" were chosen "by judicious selection" and protected from "any admixture with lower races," all "in order to provide fitting vehicles" for the incarnation of especially advanced souls.
Besant also addresses this theme in her 1904 book The Pedigree of Man, contrasting the "backward, disappearing races" with the "more advanced"
races, and noting that the "Aryans" are progressing toward spiritual perfection while the "degraded remnants" of obsolete races decline toward a "semi-animal" state. For Besant, a cosmic program of "deliberate breeding" lead to "the ideal type that now we know as the Aryan." (Annie Besant, The Changing World, London 1910, p. 116)
A similar complex of spiritual-racial theories appears in the work of French
theosophist and anthroposophist Edouard Schure. Schure's book The Great
Initiates (English translation 1913) remains a very popular text among
esotericists today; it is now published in English by the Anthroposophic
Press and distributed by Steinerbooks. The book's opening chapter (in the
first section, on "The Aryan Cycle") carries the title "The Human Races and
the Origins of Religion."
Here we read much about "the Aryan race" and "the genius of the white race." (24) Schure says that there are four chief races, each arising separately on its own continent. According to his spiritual-racial theory, "the American Indians" are "the offspring of Troglodytes" and "merely the remnant" of "the primitive red race" that once peopled a lost southern continent (5): "The souls of these poor laggards are weighed down with the incurable melancholy of a dying race devoid of all hope." (7)
Schure also discusses "the degenerate negro", and offers a remarkable
explanation for the divergence between the "Semitic and Aryan nations" after
the exodus from Atlantis:
"Wherever the white colonists submitted to the black nations, accepting
their rule and receiving religious initiation from their priests, there, in
all probability, appeared the Semitic nations"; while "The Aryan
civilisations, on the other hand, were formed where the whites must have
ruled over the blacks either by war or by conquest" (p. 18).
Schure's sequel to The Great Initiates is From Sphinx to Christ: An Occult History (Rudolf Steiner Publications, 1970), which today is also published
by the Anthroposophic Press and distributed by Steinerbooks. In a section on the "Development of the White Race" (68-71), Schure quotes extensively from Steiner's Cosmic Memory and enthusiastically endorses Gobineau's The Inequality of the Human Races, one of the founding texts of modern racist thought, calling it "an admirable study of the white race, compared to the yellow and black races" (68). Schure declares that "the Aryan has had the courage to seek the Eternal through Freedom," and concludes this section in rapturous tones:
"The sunward journey with fire stolen from heaven -- is not this typical of
the Aryan race, at the dawn as at the noonday of its histroy, in its first
eastward migration as in its later return towards the west? The rising sun,
or earthly future -- the settting sun, or heavenly future; the aim of this
race shall ever be Divinity and Truth." (p. 71)
In stark contrast to this sunny future that esotericists foresaw for the "Aryan race," the Jews were frequently considered a relic of the past. This is a common theme within occult works; consider, for example, the 1941 article by Manly P. Hall, "The Jew Does Not Fit In" which was excerpted here several days ago.
These are only samples from the extensive history of theosophical spiritual-racial theory. Further examples from the theosophical tradition include:
Fio Hara, �The Secret Doctrine of Racial Development�, Theosophist (August
1904), 661-69
A. Schwarz, �Notes on the Pedigree of Man�, Theosophist (June 1905), 545-557
W.A. Mayers, �Contemporary National Evolution� Theosophist (June 1898), 523-28
Leadbeater, �The Beginnings of the Sixth Root Race,� Theosophist (February 1910), 487-98
Marie Russak, �The Call of the Sixth Root Race,� The Channel (December 1915): 99-103.
Alvin Boyd Kuhn, Theosophy: A Modern Revival of Ancient Wisdom (New York: Henry Holt, 1930), 220-31
The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett, ed. A. T. Barker (London: Fisher Unwin, 1923), 68-70, 82-88, 94-97, 118-22, 149-59
Max Heindel, The Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception (Oceanside 1911)
Basil Crump, Evolution as Outlined in the Archaic Eastern Records (London:
The Blavatsky Association, 1930)
Alice Hamaker, �Karma: Its Racial and National Aspect�, The Theosophist
(April 1925), 53-67
Isabelle Pagan, Racial Cleavage, or The Seven Ages of Man (London:
Theosophical Publishing House, 1937).
etc.
Peter Staudenmaier
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________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: Zooey's blog
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:03 pm ((PST))
Thanks Peter,
Sune - what can I say, he's an interesting phenomenon. I don't think he's come up with anything new, though. It's the same old "fraud, lies, forgery"-babble that you've probably heard already. Most of the time it's hard to even figure out what exactly it is that he's obsessing about and why it would matter. He seems seriously confused when it comes to different types of written material and the criteria by wich to "judge" them.
Well, thank you for writing such interesting articles.
-z
Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com) wrote:
Your site looks excellent, Zooey; I'm sorry I haven't yet had a chance to look at it more thoroughly. I noticed that you have gone to the trouble of translating a large portion of your exchange with Sune into English. Thanks very much for that effort. I will make a point of reading through it when I can. Best,
Peter S.
________________________________
)
) There is a lot of great writing on Waldorf and anthroposophy here:
)
) http://zooey.wordpress.com/category/writings-in-english/
)
) And if you can read Swedish, even more. Then again, if you can read
) Swedish, you'll have to put up with the interference of Sune.
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5b. Re: Zooey's blog
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:03 pm ((PST))
Hi,
and thanks a lot!
Let's hope they are linking to Sune as a source of information. It would call their judgment into question, and in case anyone reads through what Sune writes, they will be alerted to the fact that there is a waldorf critics group, an Plans and a Staudenmaier, which they might not have even discovered (until too late) otherwise. If not, they have at least some idea of how anthros reason (or don't reason, maybe) based on reading his stuff.
And I think a lot of people - parents - have a problem of taking the over-the-top anthros seriously. Kids may ridicule them, but parents are too well-behaved or keep silent from total disbelief or awkwardness.
-z
awaldenpond shaw.ca wrote: Hi Zooey,
More kudos your way and you deserve it. It's an important topic that needs to see the light of day; you are able to express yourself eloquently and with enough humour to make your blog an informative, enjoyable read. Even during my Waldorf Daze I found it odd that anyone would take some of these over-the-top Anthroposophists seriously. Now I notice Waldorf/Steiner schools linking to Sune's paranoid nonsense and I wonder if it does them a disservice? Do Waldorf/Steiner promoters even read some of what he writes?
From Zooey's blog:
"If you make one mistake, you can't be believed, ever again. My readers (I'm glad he thinks I have a bunch), who are a matter of much concern for an anthro detective, will notice I'm a fraud (I'm in good company, I'd say). And the funny part is that the thing he thought was going to make people think I'm a complete liar. is that I don't make it completely clear if my waldorf teacher talked with the dead through butterflies, or if they talked to him/her because they had turned into butterflies, or whom exactly of the deceased population communicated through those butterflies. I can't even say if the teacher-butterfly-dead people conversation took place in summer or winter! Proof -) zooey is a liar, all the time."
lol. Yes, that's how he bungles the art of obfuscation time and time again. His attacks on Peter Staudenmaier are more classic examples of how NOT to twist words during the karmic campaign to rid the world of materialism, Duganism, etc. Shine the light and always remember to share that cyber-smile!
-Walden
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6a. Re: What's with the Hand Scratching?
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:03 pm ((PST))
Yes, isn't it weird? I've never heard of that particular hand-torture-fetish other than from people who have had experience of waldorf. Children doing harm to each other probably happens (at least to a degree, but maybe not as much as in waldorf) everywhere, but I've never heard/read hand scratching reported.
Maybe it's all the focus on handicraft that's causing tormenting methods to tend to involve harming of hands ;)
-z
EDevereux (Devereux88 aol.com) wrote: I've read a few things here and there on various places on the web
about hand-scratching, and remembered something from a few months ago.
A student at my daughter's school, whom she didn't even know, walked up
to her and took her hands and, saying nothing, scratched the backs hard
enough to draw blood before my daughter could even do anything about
it. My daughter is an 8th grader (and when I asked if she reported it,
she said the teachers don't believe any of their precious students are
capable of such things, so there's no point) and was scratched by a
child a year or two younger. I remember some kids at my ordinary school
pushing or shoving or whatever, though it was pretty mild and
infrequent, but what's with the hand scratching?
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7a. "The art of avoiding history"
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 9:34 am ((PST))
Hello,
Maybe Peter S has pointed it out already, but since a few days you can read one more appendix to the article Anthropsophy and Ecofascism on Communalism's web site. The new addition is "The art of avoiding history."
http://www.communalism.net/Archive/13/ae3.print.php
It is highly interesting.
I'm thinking: Does G�ran Fant know this piece has been republished and revised? I guess he does - but I think it would be just great if he took the time to write a reply to it. Just a couple of years ago he wrote, to name one example (I'm sure he's been putting forth the same ideas on numerous occasions) that dogmatism and authoritarianism are antitheses to anthroposophy; he says those concepts are irreconcilable with anthroposophy, and moreover he says anthropsophy doesn't implicate an ideal of avoiding criticism (but sometimes, he concedes, it can be favorable to let go of criticisms in initial stages, just to let thoughts flow freely... or something... well...)
It would be interesting to know if he has a response to your article, maybe something to add that he hasn't said before.
(By the way, G�ran Fant happens to be the chairman of the board of directors at the waldorf school I attended. He's involved in lots of anthro things in sweden.)
-z
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________________________________________________________________________
7b. Re: "The art of avoiding history"
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 10:53 am ((PST))
One thing I forgot to comment... it's really of minor importance, but has a somewhat ironic tinge... In the article (or maybe it was in one of the footnotes, more likely) it's said that G�ran Fant is a music teacher. Indeed he is. But that's not all, he is a "waldorf teacher in history, religion, music and literature." (Here's a document from the ECSWE which corroborates this. http://www.ecswe.net/material/Edith_esite.pdf)
(I had to check this out, because I knew he had been a class teacher for 10th grade year 87/88 - oh, yes, I have the photographic "booklet" from that year... and I thought, it's odd, even by waldorf standards, to have class teachers specializing only in music or art. Had it been the lower grades, it wouldn't have been surprising (no, not at all, actually), but here we're talking about 10th grade. But then again, maybe they really have no doubts about sending in totally uneducated teachers. (I quit after 6th grade, so I really wouldn't know.)
-z
Zooey (skottehund yahoo.com) wrote: Hello,
Maybe Peter S has pointed it out already, but since a few days you can read one more appendix to the article Anthropsophy and Ecofascism on Communalism's web site. The new addition is "The art of avoiding history."
http://www.communalism.net/Archive/13/ae3.print.php
It is highly interesting.
I'm thinking: Does G�ran Fant know this piece has been republished and revised? I guess he does - but I think it would be just great if he took the time to write a reply to it. Just a couple of years ago he wrote, to name one example (I'm sure he's been putting forth the same ideas on numerous occasions) that dogmatism and authoritarianism are antitheses to anthroposophy; he says those concepts are irreconcilable with anthroposophy, and moreover he says anthropsophy doesn't implicate an ideal of avoiding criticism (but sometimes, he concedes, it can be favorable to let go of criticisms in initial stages, just to let thoughts flow freely... or something... well...)
It would be interesting to know if he has a response to your article, maybe something to add that he hasn't said before.
(By the way, G�ran Fant happens to be the chairman of the board of directors at the waldorf school I attended. He's involved in lots of anthro things in sweden.)
-z
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8. Earthquakes and Reincarnation
Posted by: "tmasthenes13" TomBuoyed aol.com tmasthenes13
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 12:05 pm ((PST))
Earthquakes and Reincarnation
Diana wrote:
----------------------------------------------
TOM: What you need is some kind of strong and steady Luciferic infusion so
)I would advise taking a trip out here to the "left coast" and attend
)Dottie's Sophianic Spa in the heart of Hollywood. When you are
)suitably refreshed, I can show you around the Lotus Land and you'll
)be "hanging ten" as it were, surfing the synchronistic waves before
)you know it!
DIANA: Thanks for the invite but you really want to sic Dottie on me,
what
are you trying to do to me Tom? :)
----------------------------------------------
I see your concern, Diana, but actually it's much deeper than Dottie's
spa. Truth to tell, Dottie is quite harmless and she would make an
excellent agent of your needed Luciferic infusion. However, your fear
of Dottie is greatly misplaced as deeper karmi-cosmi-geographical
forces are at work.
So in the interests of "full disclosure," I must now reveal to you the
inner subconscious basis of your reluctance to visit the "left coast"
out here. Then you will be able to make an informed decision about
whether you even want to visit here at all.
This revelation will also go a long way toward explaining why those of
us destined to live out our incarnations in Southern California,
indeed, I must include the whole West Coast, and possibly inland a bit
to include Sacramento where RSC is located.
I quote below a passage from a lecture that Steiner gave in 1906,
(Rudolf Steiner Press edition 1999)
[JARGON NOTE: In the dialect of Classical Anthroposophese, "Devachan"
is where you go after "Kama Loka." These places are more recognizable
by the Catholic designations of Devachan as Heaven (or Dante's
Paradise) and Kama Loka as Purgatory.]
-------------------------------------------------------
Founding a Science of the Spirit
14 Lectures, given in Stuttgart,
Aug-Sept, 1906, GA#95
------------------
)From page 137
------------------------------------------------------
"How man's destiny and will are related to happenings in the earth can
be seen from two examples which have been occultly investigated. It
has been found that many people killed in an earthquake appear in
their next incarnation as human beings of high spiritual quality and
faith. They had progressed far enough for that final blow to convince
them of the transitoriness of earthly things.
The effect of this in Devachan was that they learnt a lesson for
their next lives: that matter is perishable but spirit prevails. They
did not all come to realize that, but many of them are living as
people who belong to some spiritual-theosophical movement.
In the other example, the births which occurred during a time of
frequent earthquakes were investigated. It was found that all those
born at about the time of an earthquake, though not exactly in its
area, were surprisingly enough, people of a very materialistic frame
of mind.
The earthquakes were not the cause of this; rather it was these
strongly materialistic souls, ripe for birth, who worked their way
down into the physical world by means of their astral will and let
loose the forces of the fire earth layer, which proceeded to shake the
earth at the time of their birth."
-----------------------------------------------------------
So, Diana, you see what fate would be in store for you if you came out
here. We're all just waiting for that Really Big One to strike and
there was great joy when about 5 years ago, a whole new fault line was
discovered under downtown Los Angeles, which has nothing to do with
the San Andreas fault.
On that note, I give you an interactive map of the SA fault so you can
see in detail our predicament out here:
http://geology.com/san-andreas-fault/
The SA fault divides the North American Plate from the Pacific Plate.
Notice that those of us in LA-LA Land are way west of the fault line.
That means we are not living on North America, but are already on the
plate we share with most of the Pacific Ocean, including Hawaii.
You can see it much more vividly here on this world map of the plates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Plates_tect2_en.svg
Now when I first moved here in 2003, I was feeling very disoriented,
experiencing weird vibes in my body electric and especially a funny
feeling that there was no ground under my feet, so I went to the local
Christian Community priest, whose church is in North Hollywood (and
who just happens to be Daniel Hindes' mother!) for guidance.
One short sentence from her and I was cured!
She said: "Well, Tom, you're not in Atlantis anymore; you're in Lemuria!"
"D'oh! Of course!"
However, notice that the north end of the fault. San Francisco is on
the NA Plate but just barely, so there is then some concern for Dan
and the PLANS operation (and CIIS). But since we're all in this
together, critics and Waldorfians alike, then those of us who are
destined to perish in the Big Quake will compare notes in Devachan
about our future lives together again.
Now back to us here in LA: notice that Dr. Steiner specifically
singles out those of us belonging to "spiritual-theosophical
movements." Perhaps I will be in the PRS Library when the earth opens
up and swallows us all in what I call now a "Reverse Rapture!"
But finally, Diana, take heed of the last indication, about those
babies being born during the time of the quake.
Anthroposophists now are keen on prognosticating two upcoming births.
I call it the "Dalai Lama watch." One baby they are looking for is,
of course, that of Rudolf Steiner, who coyly implied he would return a
century after his last life. Now maybe his karma decrees that he (or
she) needs to be born during the big kahuna earthquake, but the other
eagerly awaited -- or dreaded -- baby would be the Ultimate
Materialist of all, namely His Nibs himself, Uncle Ahriman, who is
destined to incarnate as a human being sometime during this millennium.
So Diana, when the time comes for you to bid adieu to those of us who
will be falling into Mother Earth between those two big tectonic
plates, know that you will be left behind and then start your Ahriman
clock, set it for, say 25 to 30 years and when it rings, check out the
charismatic guy or gal who will then be stepping up to run the New
World Order.
Tom
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There are 14 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Earthquakes and Reincarnation
From: winters_diana
1b. Re: Earthquakes and Reincarnation
From: Zooey
2.1. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: winters_diana
2.2. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: winters_diana
2.3. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: winters_diana
2.4. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: winters_diana
2.5. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: winters_diana
2.6. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: Zooey
2.7. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: Zooey
2.8. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
From: Zooey
3a. Re: theosophical race doctrines
From: winters_diana
4a. Re: What's with the Hand Scratching?
From: cathy223146
5a. Re: waldorfish tv on the web
From: cathy223146
5b. Re: waldorfish tv on the web
From: Zooey
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Earthquakes and Reincarnation
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 1:22 pm ((PST))
So you're saying I should come to California so I can die when the
Big One strikes, too? or just because Steiner's going to incarnate
out your way next time, so anybody who is anybody will want to be
there? ....
(reading this at work when I shouldn't be, and not sure I took all
this in very well . . .)
I don't have any reluctance to come to California, believe me - I
yearn deeply for the west coast for many reasons, though meeting up
with Dottie isn't one of them :) escaping the grimy, gray urban east
coast winter might be one . . .
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "tmasthenes13"
(TomBuoyed ...) wrote:
)
) Earthquakes and Reincarnation
)
) Diana wrote:
) ----------------------------------------------
) TOM: What you need is some kind of strong and steady Luciferic
infusion so
) )I would advise taking a trip out here to the "left coast" and
attend
) )Dottie's Sophianic Spa in the heart of Hollywood. When you are
) )suitably refreshed, I can show you around the Lotus Land and
you'll
) )be "hanging ten" as it were, surfing the synchronistic waves
before
) )you know it!
)
) DIANA: Thanks for the invite but you really want to sic Dottie on
me,
) what
) are you trying to do to me Tom? :)
) ----------------------------------------------
)
) I see your concern, Diana, but actually it's much deeper than
Dottie's
) spa. Truth to tell, Dottie is quite harmless and she would make an
) excellent agent of your needed Luciferic infusion. However, your
fear
) of Dottie is greatly misplaced as deeper karmi-cosmi-geographical
) forces are at work.
)
) So in the interests of "full disclosure," I must now reveal to you
the
) inner subconscious basis of your reluctance to visit the "left
coast"
) out here. Then you will be able to make an informed decision about
) whether you even want to visit here at all.
)
) This revelation will also go a long way toward explaining why
those of
) us destined to live out our incarnations in Southern California,
) indeed, I must include the whole West Coast, and possibly inland a
bit
) to include Sacramento where RSC is located.
)
) I quote below a passage from a lecture that Steiner gave in 1906,
) (Rudolf Steiner Press edition 1999)
)
) [JARGON NOTE: In the dialect of Classical
Anthroposophese, "Devachan"
) is where you go after "Kama Loka." These places are more
recognizable
) by the Catholic designations of Devachan as Heaven (or Dante's
) Paradise) and Kama Loka as Purgatory.]
)
) -------------------------------------------------------
) Founding a Science of the Spirit
) 14 Lectures, given in Stuttgart,
) Aug-Sept, 1906, GA#95
) ------------------
) From page 137
) ------------------------------------------------------
) "How man's destiny and will are related to happenings in the earth
can
) be seen from two examples which have been occultly investigated. It
) has been found that many people killed in an earthquake appear in
) their next incarnation as human beings of high spiritual quality
and
) faith. They had progressed far enough for that final blow to
convince
) them of the transitoriness of earthly things.
)
) The effect of this in Devachan was that they learnt a lesson for
) their next lives: that matter is perishable but spirit prevails.
They
) did not all come to realize that, but many of them are living as
) people who belong to some spiritual-theosophical movement.
)
) In the other example, the births which occurred during a time of
) frequent earthquakes were investigated. It was found that all those
) born at about the time of an earthquake, though not exactly in its
) area, were surprisingly enough, people of a very materialistic
frame
) of mind.
)
) The earthquakes were not the cause of this; rather it was these
) strongly materialistic souls, ripe for birth, who worked their way
) down into the physical world by means of their astral will and let
) loose the forces of the fire earth layer, which proceeded to shake
the
) earth at the time of their birth."
) -----------------------------------------------------------
)
) So, Diana, you see what fate would be in store for you if you came
out
) here. We're all just waiting for that Really Big One to strike and
) there was great joy when about 5 years ago, a whole new fault line
was
) discovered under downtown Los Angeles, which has nothing to do with
) the San Andreas fault.
)
) On that note, I give you an interactive map of the SA fault so you
can
) see in detail our predicament out here:
) http://geology.com/san-andreas-fault/
)
) The SA fault divides the North American Plate from the Pacific
Plate.
) Notice that those of us in LA-LA Land are way west of the fault
line.
) That means we are not living on North America, but are already on
the
) plate we share with most of the Pacific Ocean, including Hawaii.
)
) You can see it much more vividly here on this world map of the
plates
) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Plates_tect2_en.svg
)
) Now when I first moved here in 2003, I was feeling very
disoriented,
) experiencing weird vibes in my body electric and especially a funny
) feeling that there was no ground under my feet, so I went to the
local
) Christian Community priest, whose church is in North Hollywood (and
) who just happens to be Daniel Hindes' mother!) for guidance.
)
) One short sentence from her and I was cured!
)
) She said: "Well, Tom, you're not in Atlantis anymore; you're in
Lemuria!"
)
) "D'oh! Of course!"
)
)
) However, notice that the north end of the fault. San Francisco is
on
) the NA Plate but just barely, so there is then some concern for Dan
) and the PLANS operation (and CIIS). But since we're all in this
) together, critics and Waldorfians alike, then those of us who are
) destined to perish in the Big Quake will compare notes in Devachan
) about our future lives together again.
)
) Now back to us here in LA: notice that Dr. Steiner specifically
) singles out those of us belonging to "spiritual-theosophical
) movements." Perhaps I will be in the PRS Library when the earth
opens
) up and swallows us all in what I call now a "Reverse Rapture!"
)
) But finally, Diana, take heed of the last indication, about those
) babies being born during the time of the quake.
)
) Anthroposophists now are keen on prognosticating two upcoming
births.
) I call it the "Dalai Lama watch." One baby they are looking for
is,
) of course, that of Rudolf Steiner, who coyly implied he would
return a
) century after his last life. Now maybe his karma decrees that he
(or
) she) needs to be born during the big kahuna earthquake, but the
other
) eagerly awaited -- or dreaded -- baby would be the Ultimate
) Materialist of all, namely His Nibs himself, Uncle Ahriman, who is
) destined to incarnate as a human being sometime during this
millennium.
)
) So Diana, when the time comes for you to bid adieu to those of us
who
) will be falling into Mother Earth between those two big tectonic
) plates, know that you will be left behind and then start your
Ahriman
) clock, set it for, say 25 to 30 years and when it rings, check out
the
) charismatic guy or gal who will then be stepping up to run the New
) World Order.
)
) Tom
)
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Earthquakes and Reincarnation
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 1:56 pm ((PST))
I'm starting to wonder what the top-ten of best-ways-to-die is according to anthroposophy. Earthquake ought to rank pretty high, I gather.
I seem to remember my waldorf teachers having an unhealthy obsession with leprosy. Maybe that was from the bible and the saints and all that.
-z
winters_diana (diana.winters verizon.net) wrote:
So you're saying I should come to California so I can die when the
Big One strikes, too? or just because Steiner's going to incarnate
out your way next time, so anybody who is anybody will want to be
there? ....
(reading this at work when I shouldn't be, and not sure I took all
this in very well . . .)
I don't have any reluctance to come to California, believe me - I
yearn deeply for the west coast for many reasons, though meeting up
with Dottie isn't one of them :) escaping the grimy, gray urban east
coast winter might be one . . .
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "tmasthenes13"
(TomBuoyed ...) wrote:
)
) Earthquakes and Reincarnation
)
) Diana wrote:
) ----------------------------------------------
) TOM: What you need is some kind of strong and steady Luciferic
infusion so
) )I would advise taking a trip out here to the "left coast" and
attend
) )Dottie's Sophianic Spa in the heart of Hollywood. When you are
) )suitably refreshed, I can show you around the Lotus Land and
you'll
) )be "hanging ten" as it were, surfing the synchronistic waves
before
) )you know it!
)
) DIANA: Thanks for the invite but you really want to sic Dottie on
me,
) what
) are you trying to do to me Tom? :)
) ----------------------------------------------
)
) I see your concern, Diana, but actually it's much deeper than
Dottie's
) spa. Truth to tell, Dottie is quite harmless and she would make an
) excellent agent of your needed Luciferic infusion. However, your
fear
) of Dottie is greatly misplaced as deeper karmi-cosmi-geographical
) forces are at work.
)
) So in the interests of "full disclosure," I must now reveal to you
the
) inner subconscious basis of your reluctance to visit the "left
coast"
) out here. Then you will be able to make an informed decision about
) whether you even want to visit here at all.
)
) This revelation will also go a long way toward explaining why
those of
) us destined to live out our incarnations in Southern California,
) indeed, I must include the whole West Coast, and possibly inland a
bit
) to include Sacramento where RSC is located.
)
) I quote below a passage from a lecture that Steiner gave in 1906,
) (Rudolf Steiner Press edition 1999)
)
) [JARGON NOTE: In the dialect of Classical
Anthroposophese, "Devachan"
) is where you go after "Kama Loka." These places are more
recognizable
) by the Catholic designations of Devachan as Heaven (or Dante's
) Paradise) and Kama Loka as Purgatory.]
)
) -------------------------------------------------------
) Founding a Science of the Spirit
) 14 Lectures, given in Stuttgart,
) Aug-Sept, 1906, GA#95
) ------------------
) From page 137
) ------------------------------------------------------
) "How man's destiny and will are related to happenings in the earth
can
) be seen from two examples which have been occultly investigated. It
) has been found that many people killed in an earthquake appear in
) their next incarnation as human beings of high spiritual quality
and
) faith. They had progressed far enough for that final blow to
convince
) them of the transitoriness of earthly things.
)
) The effect of this in Devachan was that they learnt a lesson for
) their next lives: that matter is perishable but spirit prevails.
They
) did not all come to realize that, but many of them are living as
) people who belong to some spiritual-theosophical movement.
)
) In the other example, the births which occurred during a time of
) frequent earthquakes were investigated. It was found that all those
) born at about the time of an earthquake, though not exactly in its
) area, were surprisingly enough, people of a very materialistic
frame
) of mind.
)
) The earthquakes were not the cause of this; rather it was these
) strongly materialistic souls, ripe for birth, who worked their way
) down into the physical world by means of their astral will and let
) loose the forces of the fire earth layer, which proceeded to shake
the
) earth at the time of their birth."
) ----------------------------------------------------------
)
) So, Diana, you see what fate would be in store for you if you came
out
) here. We're all just waiting for that Really Big One to strike and
) there was great joy when about 5 years ago, a whole new fault line
was
) discovered under downtown Los Angeles, which has nothing to do with
) the San Andreas fault.
)
) On that note, I give you an interactive map of the SA fault so you
can
) see in detail our predicament out here:
) http://geology.com/san-andreas-fault/
)
) The SA fault divides the North American Plate from the Pacific
Plate.
) Notice that those of us in LA-LA Land are way west of the fault
line.
) That means we are not living on North America, but are already on
the
) plate we share with most of the Pacific Ocean, including Hawaii.
)
) You can see it much more vividly here on this world map of the
plates
) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Plates_tect2_en.svg
)
) Now when I first moved here in 2003, I was feeling very
disoriented,
) experiencing weird vibes in my body electric and especially a funny
) feeling that there was no ground under my feet, so I went to the
local
) Christian Community priest, whose church is in North Hollywood (and
) who just happens to be Daniel Hindes' mother!) for guidance.
)
) One short sentence from her and I was cured!
)
) She said: "Well, Tom, you're not in Atlantis anymore; you're in
Lemuria!"
)
) "D'oh! Of course!"
)
)
) However, notice that the north end of the fault. San Francisco is
on
) the NA Plate but just barely, so there is then some concern for Dan
) and the PLANS operation (and CIIS). But since we're all in this
) together, critics and Waldorfians alike, then those of us who are
) destined to perish in the Big Quake will compare notes in Devachan
) about our future lives together again.
)
) Now back to us here in LA: notice that Dr. Steiner specifically
) singles out those of us belonging to "spiritual-theosophical
) movements." Perhaps I will be in the PRS Library when the earth
opens
) up and swallows us all in what I call now a "Reverse Rapture!"
)
) But finally, Diana, take heed of the last indication, about those
) babies being born during the time of the quake.
)
) Anthroposophists now are keen on prognosticating two upcoming
births.
) I call it the "Dalai Lama watch." One baby they are looking for
is,
) of course, that of Rudolf Steiner, who coyly implied he would
return a
) century after his last life. Now maybe his karma decrees that he
(or
) she) needs to be born during the big kahuna earthquake, but the
other
) eagerly awaited -- or dreaded -- baby would be the Ultimate
) Materialist of all, namely His Nibs himself, Uncle Ahriman, who is
) destined to incarnate as a human being sometime during this
millennium.
)
) So Diana, when the time comes for you to bid adieu to those of us
who
) will be falling into Mother Earth between those two big tectonic
) plates, know that you will be left behind and then start your
Ahriman
) clock, set it for, say 25 to 30 years and when it rings, check out
the
) charismatic guy or gal who will then be stepping up to run the New
) World Order.
)
) Tom
)
---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 4:27 pm ((PST))
I wrote (researching my college catalog's religious studies listings):
)(There are a bunch of other courses that purport to address the clash
)of fundamentalist religious fervor with modernity; this looks like the
)only one to address "cults".)
Or are those two topics the same thing, in some way? with cults being
understandably less studied than the "big" fundamentalisms (as their
adherents don't tend to do things like smash airplanes into buildings),
and because these adherents are so many fewer in number the topic
somehow seems less "real" academically, but cults may be actually
another manifestation of the same phenomenon? just a thought. maybe
cults could begin to be seen as a sexier academic topic if somebody
could start making a case that they're PART of a global religious
reaction against modernity? Peter, is it correct that at the moment
anything that doesn't appear to be part of this Big Topic seems less
important to scholars of religion?
Diana
Messages in this topic (38)
________________________________________________________________________
2.2. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 5:33 pm ((PST))
Peter:
)asked me to delete the adjective "convoluted" as a description of
)Steiner's teachings. To my mind, describing anthroposophical
)doctrines in this way was hardly a backhanded criticism, but instead
)a nod toward the complexity and contradiction that run throughout
)Steiner's works, an important consideration when it come to his
)racial views in particular. But the term was apparently considered
)potentially derogatory, and I went ahead and dropped it. The same
)concern arose with my reference to the "disparate" elements that
)Theosophy pulled together in its syncretic framework; the editor
)asked me to drop the adjective "disparate", which I also did. I have
)to say it had never occurred to me that these words could be read as
)pejorative,
"Convoluted" is definitely at least mildly derogatory, but "disparate"
isn't, at least not necessarily. In fact it could be positive to say
that someone brought together disparate teachings.
Diana
Messages in this topic (38)
________________________________________________________________________
2.3. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 5:48 pm ((PST))
Peter:
)because there is so much pre-existing indifference, puzzlement, or
)even hostility toward efforts to make such doctrines central to
)research or teaching, it can have a sort of reinforcing effect on
)those who do stick to these topics and encourage them to adopt an
)even more sympathetic and protective attitude toward their subject.
They're probably really threatened more by the indifference and the
sense that the topics are not considered important enough to study
than by those they consider actually hostile, like you. They're
probably almost grateful to you, as at least you take them seriously.
)That's for sure. This might be one of the things that eventually
)makes Sune's wish come true and "derails" my academic career, such
)as it is.
Well, that's a pendulum that also can swing. Surely this infatuation
with everything "New Age" will run its course soon, culture-
wide . . .
)That rankles a lot of people, inside and outside of the academy. I
)think that a lot of this dynamic is likely to calm down as movements
)like anthroposophy slowly undergo the difficult process of moving
)from the esoteric to the exoteric.
See, that's what I mean - you give them at least the credit that
they'll some day be a serious religion, and not a wacky little fringe
group. Another possibility is that growing numbers of adherents will
realize it is rather silly.
Diana
Messages in this topic (38)
________________________________________________________________________
2.4. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 5:58 pm ((PST))
Zooey (about Sune):
)What's interesting though is how he thinks that he should be admitted
)on wasso since YOU think he's a "victim" of some sorts of
)anthroposophy.
The survivors list is for people who are out, not people inside who are
happy that way, regardless of whether we may privately think some of
them are also victims. There are also occasionally people who apply who
are obviously sincere and would actually like to try to help from
within Waldorf - Waldorf teachers for example. (I do think many Waldorf
teachers are victims of anthroposophy; some Waldorf teachers are
actually abuse victims, in my opinion). What all these people have in
common is being well intentioned. Sune Nordwall doesn't fall into that
category.
Diana
Messages in this topic (38)
________________________________________________________________________
2.5. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 6:04 pm ((PST))
zooey (on Sune):
)The few writers who have dealt with anthroposophy here in Sweden have
)had their fair share. But, like Peter, they can counter his
)arguments. However, for the people who had personal waldorf
)experience, the behaviour Sune displays can be intimidating. (And
)having been involved in waldorf or anthroposophy, we are iften
)familiar with intimidation and creepy people.)
Yeah - that's what I think we need to speak up about with Sune -
especially when it's a young person he targets, or a family that is
recently traumatized. I know you're not a kid, Zooey, but I think if he
perceives the person as younger than him he will come on very strong -
very fake warm and friendly, and very patronizing. It's common in
anthroposophists and it really can be very intimidating.
Diana
Messages in this topic (38)
________________________________________________________________________
2.6. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2008 4:29 am ((PST))
Yes, exactly! There's no question whatsoever that Sune isn't the target group. Wether we believe him to be a sufferer from anthro delusion isn't the point.
And, well intentioned - no, that's not him either...
-z
winters_diana (diana.winters verizon.net) wrote: Zooey (about Sune):
)What's interesting though is how he thinks that he should be admitted
)on wasso since YOU think he's a "victim" of some sorts of
)anthroposophy.
The survivors list is for people who are out, not people inside who are
happy that way, regardless of whether we may privately think some of
them are also victims. There are also occasionally people who apply who
are obviously sincere and would actually like to try to help from
within Waldorf - Waldorf teachers for example. (I do think many Waldorf
teachers are victims of anthroposophy; some Waldorf teachers are
actually abuse victims, in my opinion). What all these people have in
common is being well intentioned. Sune Nordwall doesn't fall into that
category.
Diana
---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (38)
________________________________________________________________________
2.7. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2008 4:39 am ((PST))
Yes, precisely. His methods can be intimidating for people who have their personal unfortunate waldorf histories - to the point where they feel uncomfortable in sharing them. His insistance on sending "facts" from his own web sites that "disproves" this or that is also somewhat intimidating - I mean, you have to have at least some knowledge about anthroposophy to know he's sending you a lot of bullshit.
I'm sure he knows I'm not that young actually, but he has a way of treating people that indicates he sort of thinks of critics as being small kids.
-z
winters_diana (diana.winters verizon.net) wrote: zooey (on Sune):
)The few writers who have dealt with anthroposophy here in Sweden have
)had their fair share. But, like Peter, they can counter his
)arguments. However, for the people who had personal waldorf
)experience, the behaviour Sune displays can be intimidating. (And
)having been involved in waldorf or anthroposophy, we are iften
)familiar with intimidation and creepy people.)
Yeah - that's what I think we need to speak up about with Sune -
especially when it's a young person he targets, or a family that is
recently traumatized. I know you're not a kid, Zooey, but I think if he
perceives the person as younger than him he will come on very strong -
very fake warm and friendly, and very patronizing. It's common in
anthroposophists and it really can be very intimidating.
Diana
---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (38)
________________________________________________________________________
2.8. Re: "Race and Redemption" published
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2008 4:58 am ((PST))
I think definately they are a part of the anti-modernity "thing" - just as the fundamentalist fractions of the established religions are.
One thing I found pretty interesting was an article from some academic magazine about the anti-scientific currents within cults, new age-ism, esotericism etc. The point was that in a country with so little church attendance as Sweden, it would be thought to exist more pro-scientific attitudes than for example in the US where people are more religious in a traditional way. However, the researchers/authours concluded, that wasn't necessarily the case. The more new age-type beliefs - the more anti-scientificism, more anti-reason. Going slightly off topic now, but I will quote from the paper:
)From Journal of Contemporary Religion, vol 20, no 1, 2005, Exploring Spirituality and Unchurched Religion in America, Sweden and Japan, p 19-20:
"Moreover, the lack of religious authority extends to a variety of more �distant� cultural matters, including respect for science. Just as the fundamental commitment of Christian theologians to reason explains why science arose only in Europe (Grant; Jaki; Stark, Glory of God), unchurched religions, and especially those engaged in celebrating spirituality, tend to reject not only creeds, but also commitment to rationality�they often condemn the very idea that there are rules of logic and evidence (Houtman and Mascini). In contrast, studies based on research in Sweden (Sjodin), Canada (Orenstein), and the United States (Bainbridge and Stark) demonstrate that churched religion offers a very substantial barrier to belief in magic and various forms of �pseudo�-science�it even seems to be far more supportive of conventional science than education. Conversely, as young Swedes embrace spirituality, they express skepticism about science. Indeed, expressions of hostility to science
are rife on internet spirituality sites where little is so disdained as the �dead grip of linear thought� and the �materialist dogmas of science�.
When Bainbridge and Stark first published their findings about the incompatibility of evangelical religion and �superstitions� in The Skeptical Inquirer, a journal founded to oppose magic and pseudo-science (but quite as hostile towards religion), many readers went into extreme denial. Dozens wrote to explain why it must be impossible that students who claimed to be �born again Christians� could be far less accepting of UFOs as alien visitors, of ESP, astrology, Tarot, seances, and Transcendental Meditation than students who said they had no religion. As a prominent American Humanist leader put it rather good-naturedly, �Am I supposed to agree that secularity is a mixed blessing?� The answer would seem to be �yes�."
The thing is, while new age people reject reason and science to a large degree, I can't see how they would ever be able to cause that immediate disaster situations that fundementalist believers can do - when they are commited and focused on it. It's more of a slow perversion of culture, away from logic, reason and science. If it is as much, at all. Maybe, even likely, it's not changing at all - maybe parts of the population were always like that, only it was thought people weren't spiritually inclined since they didn't visit churches.
-z
ps. The writers of the article are christian theologicans, so maybe we could guess they would favor interpretations that christianity won't lead to unreason (or at least that christians aren't the unscientific culprits one sometimes suspects). The point being that they are (maybe) expected to look sceptically towards new age-spirituality-ufo-ism etc...
winters_diana (diana.winters verizon.net) wrote: I wrote (researching my college catalog's religious studies listings):
)(There are a bunch of other courses that purport to address the clash
)of fundamentalist religious fervor with modernity; this looks like the
)only one to address "cults".)
Or are those two topics the same thing, in some way? with cults being
understandably less studied than the "big" fundamentalisms (as their
adherents don't tend to do things like smash airplanes into buildings),
and because these adherents are so many fewer in number the topic
somehow seems less "real" academically, but cults may be actually
another manifestation of the same phenomenon? just a thought. maybe
cults could begin to be seen as a sexier academic topic if somebody
could start making a case that they're PART of a global religious
reaction against modernity? Peter, is it correct that at the moment
anything that doesn't appear to be part of this Big Topic seems less
important to scholars of religion?
Diana
---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (38)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: theosophical race doctrines
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 5:50 pm ((PST))
)In many ways the founding scripture of modern spiritual-racial theory
)is H. P. Blavatsky's three-volume magnum opus The Secret Doctrine
)(1888/1893).
How in the world do serious scholars maintain that the material is not
racist?
Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: What's with the Hand Scratching?
Posted by: "cathy223146" cathybalme btinternet.com cathy223146
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2008 6:49 am ((PST))
Gosh- the school our kids were had a real period of hand scratching-
which we hadn't come across elsewhere. How very bizarre. It was
between all ages too- and one child was really badly scarred.
I asked my kids about it- several of the boys used to grow their
nails, and then CUT and SHAPE them into diamond shapes - all the
better to scratch. My kids seem to think they wanted to be like
tigers or something- but these were 11 year olds some of them. Weird.
)
) Yes, isn't it weird? I've never heard of that particular hand-
torture-fetish other than from people who have had experience of
waldorf. Children doing harm to each other probably happens (at least
to a degree, but maybe not as much as in waldorf) everywhere, but
I've never heard/read hand scratching reported.
)
) Maybe it's all the focus on handicraft that's causing tormenting
methods to tend to involve harming of hands ;)
) -z
)
) EDevereux (Devereux88 ...) wrote:
I've read a few things here and there on various places on the web
) about hand-scratching, and remembered something from a few months
ago.
) A student at my daughter's school, whom she didn't even know,
walked up
) to her and took her hands and, saying nothing, scratched the backs
hard
) enough to draw blood before my daughter could even do anything
about
) it. My daughter is an 8th grader (and when I asked if she reported
it,
) she said the teachers don't believe any of their precious students
are
) capable of such things, so there's no point) and was scratched by
a
) child a year or two younger. I remember some kids at my ordinary
school
) pushing or shoving or whatever, though it was pretty mild and
) infrequent, but what's with the hand scratching?
)
)
)
)
)
)
) ---------------------------------
) Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox.
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: waldorfish tv on the web
Posted by: "cathy223146" cathybalme btinternet.com cathy223146
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2008 6:56 am ((PST))
Diana,
This is exactly the way one of my kid's teachers behaved- she was
being mentored by two older and sort of elder stateswomen teachers-
and one could see her constantly holding herself in a particular way,
from each gesture and phrase she uttered- the unnaturalness of it was
excrutiating- the inability to respond to normal body language.
Also - what is that thing they do with crossing their arms ove their
chests? Containing themselves or something?
)
) I wrote:
)
) )there is no doubt at all that a detached style of relating to the
kids
) )is cultivated.
)
) Thinking a little more about this, I think one way it is cultivated
is
) that junior teachers are themselves treated coldly and judgmentally
by
) senior teachers - in the kindergartens, I too was treated more or
less
) like a child - a child under the eye of a grim and easily
displeased
) authority figure. I was made very self-conscious about trivia such
as
) how to sit in the chair, how to walk, correct gestures, you know,
move
) more slowly, don't cross your legs etc., watch my language
carefully
) and don't use slang, kind of like a very bossy elderly aunt who's
) constantly criticizing your posture or disapproves of your haircut
and
) pretty soon you're twitching just at the thought of visiting her? I
) would get focused on these superficial things, knowing I was being
) watched, and become too self-conscious and anxious to get involved
in
) an easy way with the kids anyway.
) Diana
)
Messages in this topic (20)
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5b. Re: waldorfish tv on the web
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2008 7:05 am ((PST))
Probably to prevent their spiritual body to escape from the bodily prison.
No, but I think folding your arms holding the chest like that signals distance or "keep away" - in normal body language. And since that's the mental attitude the want, the body posture should come naturally.
I guess.
-z
cathy223146 (cathybalme btinternet.com) wrote:
Diana,
This is exactly the way one of my kid's teachers behaved- she was
being mentored by two older and sort of elder stateswomen teachers-
and one could see her constantly holding herself in a particular way,
from each gesture and phrase she uttered- the unnaturalness of it was
excrutiating- the inability to respond to normal body language.
Also - what is that thing they do w