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There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Waldorf on swedish wikipedia; nazism, apartheid + more stupidity
From: Roger Rawlings
1b. Re: Waldorf on swedish wikipedia; nazism, apartheid + more stupidity
From: zooey_stockholm
1c. Re: Waldorf on swedish wikipedia; nazism, apartheid + more stupidity
From: zooey_stockholm
1d. Re: Waldorf on swedish wikipedia; nazism, apartheid + more stupidity
From: zooey_stockholm
2a. Problems
From: Roger Rawlings
2b. Re: Problems
From: zooey_stockholm
2c. Re: Problems
From: Roger Rawlings
2d. Re: Problems
From: Roger Rawlings
2e. Re: Problems
From: Roger Rawlings
3. G'bye
From: Roger Rawlings
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Waldorf on swedish wikipedia; nazism, apartheid + more stupidity
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 6:22 am ((PDT))
Thanks, Dan.
The very thought or "public" Waldorfs is so awful, my mind has trouble
getting ahold of it.
--Roger
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, Dan Dugan (dan@...) wrote:
)
) Roger, you wrote,
)
) )Yesterday I read an article about the "No Child Left Behind" program
) )initiated by the Bush administration (Chinese curse: May you live in
) )interesting times (Waldorfs are exempt from the program, I believe.
) )(Dan? Diana?)))
)
) Private Waldorf schools have nothing to do with it. Public Waldorf
) schools participate in the program -if- they want the federal money.
) If they don't take the money, they don't have to worry about it. But
) it's hard to say no.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Waldorf on swedish wikipedia; nazism, apartheid + more stupidity
Posted by: "zooey_stockholm" skottehund@yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 10:49 am ((PDT))
As you already saw, he calls himself TheBee in swedish too, and the
only larger correction of the text I could find was the one when
TheBee seems to have changed a, from his point, more controversial
content, to the stuff I related to and translated parts of. I don't
see any huge changes having happened after that. Most of the other
anonymous changes seems to be pretty small, and nothing that
challenges TheBee.
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "winters_diana"
(diana.winters@...) wrote:
)
) Swedish wikipedia . . . well, that was pointless. I couldn't make head
) or tail of it. I may even have inadvertently made some edits not
) knowing what the hell button I was clicking :)
)
) The best I can determine, although the bee's name is there
) occasionally, most of the changes have been made anonymously. The
) histories of the pages (steiner-related) show only a few dozen changes
) over several years, unlike the English wiki where discussions sometimes
) had to be archived every few days, going back several years.
)
) Diana
)
Messages in this topic (12)
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1c. Re: Waldorf on swedish wikipedia; nazism, apartheid + more stupidity
Posted by: "zooey_stockholm" skottehund@yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 10:57 am ((PDT))
Reading the waldorf section I couldn't help but come to the same
conclusion. I never used wikipededa for anything but really simple
stuff, like "how to convert inches to centimetres" and such questions,
and I think I won't use it for anything else in the future.
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Rawlings"
(downfromfog@...) wrote:
)
) Best I can make out, the whole Wikipedia experiment is a failure.
"Consensus"
) wisdom is trash. And agreement between opposing camps
(Nazis/Communists,
) Christian Fundamentalists/Moslem Jihadists, Waldorf
Defenders/Waldorf Critics)
) is a chimera. I never go to Wikipedia for any purpose. Waste of time.
)
) --ARRRR
)
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Waldorf on swedish wikipedia; nazism, apartheid + more stupidity
Posted by: "zooey_stockholm" skottehund@yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 11:09 am ((PDT))
Here we have waldorfians protesting wildly, because of a new
government proposition that every child in 3rd grade and in 9th grade
will have to partake in national testing procedures. Waldorfs say this
will be the "death blow to their pedagogy"... not one day too soon!
However, they fight for their rights to be exempt from this
requirement - as they are exempt for requirements in other areas (for
example, they don't have to employ teachers with any formal degrees
and they don't have to give students grades).
Some waldorf high schools have been criticized by school boards,
because they cannot not participate in national testing, if they want
funding, but have done so regardless. Apparently tests are too
stressful for kids (real reason: they don't teach kids to read), but
also for 17/18 year olds (real reason: students are too far behind).
Funnily enough, one school board investigation report I read made the
observation that even though staff claimed testing was to stressful on
the students, the students themselves expressed that they felt a lot
of stress because they, in abscence of testing procedures, didn't have
any clues as to what their own level of knowledge and skills was and
how they placed themselves in comparison to other students and how
this would affect their future life.
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, Dan Dugan (dan@...) wrote:
)
) Roger, you wrote,
)
) )Yesterday I read an article about the "No Child Left Behind" program
) )initiated by the Bush administration (Chinese curse: May you live in
) )interesting times (Waldorfs are exempt from the program, I believe.
) )(Dan? Diana?)))
)
) Private Waldorf schools have nothing to do with it. Public Waldorf
) schools participate in the program -if- they want the federal money.
) If they don't take the money, they don't have to worry about it. But
) it's hard to say no.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Problems
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT))
Hi, all.
My new site is up and running. It's at
http://www.waldorf-problems.com/
I haven't tested every last link (there's a bunch of them),
but I believe they all work. (Being a man of faith.)
If you find any errors or inactive links, please tell
me. As always, I will be grateful for sensible corrections.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Problems
Posted by: "zooey_stockholm" skottehund@yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 1:42 pm ((PDT))
Nice!
One link in the links section, under "the waldorf curriculum": "Oh My
Stars" - the reference is not a link.
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Rawlings"
(downfromfog@...) wrote:
)
) Hi, all.
)
) My new site is up and running. It's at
)
) http://www.waldorf-problems.com/
)
) I haven't tested every last link (there's a bunch of them),
) but I believe they all work. (Being a man of faith.)
)
) If you find any errors or inactive links, please tell
) me. As always, I will be grateful for sensible corrections.
)
) --Roger
)
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Problems
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 2:31 pm ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "zooey_stockholm" (skottehund@...) wrote:
)
) Nice!
)
) One link in the links section, under "the waldorf curriculum": "Oh My
) Stars" - the reference is not a link.
Thanks, Zooey.
Back in the good old days (yesterday), when I was still a good
guy, I would have asked Dan for info on how to edit my site.
But being Ahriman, I guess I'm on my own.
With love for all.
Roger
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: Problems
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 3:13 pm ((PDT))
To my amazment and chagrin, Brett and Dan have
questioned my intelligence and my integrity.
I never could have imagined this situation.
I require an apology from Dan (who is probably
too proud to comply) and from Brett (about whom
I know nothing).
Optimistic: I'll write to you all again soon.
Perhaps more realitsic: Good bye.
--Roger Rawlings
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: Problems
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 4:38 pm ((PDT))
No. There is no later. You had a choice to make, and you made it.
-- Roger
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3. G'bye
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 5:11 pm ((PDT))
Sorry.
Here's the deal.
Dan has chosen to insult me. Fine. No doubt I am at
fault. Still...
I've got five more Steiner books here at my feet.
What a relief not to have to read them.
Dan: The tiny finacial contributions I've made to
PLANS are now finished. I will, however, continue
to subsidize my own anti-Waldorf sites.
Live long and prosper, all.
I will reply to no messages except those headed
"Apology." I do not expect to receive any such.
--Roger Rawlings (the fool who could not benefit
from Brett's advice or Dan's condescension)
G'bye, all.
R
Messages in this topic (1)
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There are 4 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Apologies ... Re: G'bye ... Re: Problems.
From: brett.aubrey
2a. Re: G'bye
From: Roger Rawlings
2b. Re: G'bye
From: Roger Rawlings
2c. Re: G'bye
From: Margaret Sachs
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Apologies ... Re: G'bye ... Re: Problems.
Posted by: "brett.aubrey" brett.aubrey@shaw.ca brett.aubrey
Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 1:36 am ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Rawlings"
(downfromfog@...) wrote:
) Sorry. ... Dan has chosen to insult me... I will reply to no
) messages except those headed "Apology." I do not expect... --Roger
) Rawlings (the fool who could not benefit from Brett's advice...
Roger: On Tuesday in another forum you asked me to "avoid offensive
language" regarding you and one individual and when I pointed out
that "there was no nasty or offensive language" and that I "want to
ensure I give you an appropriate apology, but I don't feel I can
realistically do that quite yet, as I'm still not clear how you took
offense to my post", you simply ignored it. And the other
person "didn't see any offense".
Now I find from a third party that my name's used in this forum and
when I look, you claim with zero substantiation whatsoever
that "Brett and Dan have questioned my intelligence and my integrity"
and that you "require an apologyˇ from Brett (about whom I know
nothing)".
Then you claim with a sign off "Roger Rawlings (the fool who could
not benefit from Brett's adviceˇ", when it seems blatantly false.
You claim that you are "unable to see any sense in most of what [I]
write" and that you "have no interest in dressing up my old site or
my proposed new site", but it seems that every single change made
since Sunday was specifically covered by a post of mine a day or so
prior. I even suggested it'd only take a day or two and guess whatˇ
it took you a day or two. It seems you have a need to publicly state
that my advice is largely useless, but then make every change to
mirror my suggestions. And thus far, you've used about 90% of the
specifics of my advice but I can't see a single improvement I didn't
suggest. But you imply it all came from you. And your "the foolˇ" ö
is that for pity, or what?
I mean, we all learn from others, Roger ö there's no shame in that ö
and it's almost universal to thank someone who lends their time and
effort. I get thanks all the time when I help people, and I give it
as well of course. I don't understand why I get the precise opposite
from you ö dismissive silence is just unappreciated, but erred
accusations and suggestions that I'm a "mole", like Val(?), etc. are
rather worse. But to misrepresent what I say and to recommend that
an entire group we're both in and that I officially represent as a
Director "neither read nor respond to anything Brett posts here,
there, or anywhere" is frankly abysmal and unacceptable. As I told
Dan, this is a first for me.
I'm sorry that you seem to dislike me, but Dan was quite correct that
I was trying to help (I overtly offered throughout the thread, aside
from the thread itself), but I don't think it's reasonable for me to
stand by while you publicly claim that I use "offensive
language", "question your intelligence and integrity" and imply that
my recommendations are non-sensical or that you won't use them when
it seems clear that you did, in fact, use them. And, BTW, my offer
to help is still open and always will be.
Now I've said that I'm an open book, so when I look at your post and
see an obvious Google search that yields my full name and ISP right
away and the next obvious Google search yielding my city and country
(and much more), I'm not surprised. From there, anyone can easily
get almost everything about my in a third search, from full street
address and phone to whatever. Now this isn't a problem per se, of
course, but it's problematic to me when you publicly make these blind
accusations that I believe are categorically false. I trust you'd
agree that people shouldn't have to deal with ugly falsehoods on
the `net and I therefore request that you clarify things here by
explaining your accusations. If I'm wrong, please tell me why.
Surely if someone deliberately but erroneously claimed these things
of you, you'd want to know their grounds or you'd appreciate
retractions.
So, getting back to you and the subject headˇ you "require an
apology". Well, I'm all for apologies and will gladly give one if
warranted when you substantiate your claims. But if you don't/can't,
kindly consider an apology of your own ö and no, I don't "require" an
apology at all, but it seems only fair that you internalize your
accusations of others when they seem to be more indicative of you,
and take the action that you "require" or cease requirement demands
of people trying to help you.
Finally, some observationsˇ you're taking things way too personally
and just plain wrong. We'd like you back. And I like your new site -
thanks. I'll also point out I had many positives about you and your
work and not once suggested that your site was likely to be extremely
detrimental. I hope to talk to you: on-forum, off-forum or wherever.
Cheers, Brett 403-240-3455.
Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: G'bye
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 8:41 am ((PDT))
Some of you have written to me, asking me to stay active on
this list and elswhere. Would that I could. The decision is in
Dan's hands, not mine.
I realize, however, that I need to explain myself.
I asked Dan for some technical help, in vain.
If Dan asked Brett to "help" me, I'm not aware of it.
Brett did offer me some advice (see below) that was
totally worthless.
Several of you have said what we have here is
simply a matter of miscommunication. This is
quite probably true. But human beings deal with
this problem all the time, and sometimes they
correct it. I've been surprised that it arose
among people who presumably are allies.
One of you wrote me saying that perhaps Dan
questions my level of clarity while under the
influence of medication. Possibly. Please show
me any of my messages that seem to have been
written "under the influence." I'm aware of none.
One of you said that Brett's appearance on the
"insiders" list came as a surprise, because you
weren't aware that Brett is a Waldof critic.
Since Dan apparently takes Brett seriously,
I think this point is moot.
Dan chastised me for being so mean to Brett:
"No way to treat a volunteer who's trying to help."
Oddly enough, I too have been a volunteer who
tried to help.
Dan said also this to me: "If I'm understanding you,
the first problem is still that you haven't been able
to figure out how to place an external link on an
iWeb page, is that right?"
I would be stunned if Dan intentionally meant to
insult me. His question may have been, in his
opinion, innocuous. But I am incapable of seeing
it as anything but an insult to my intelligence:
Dan says he's not sure he understands me (when I
wrote to him repeatedly asking for a little technical
assistance on setting up a new Web site÷all of
which messages went unanwsered). I must write
very poorly, in Dan's opinion. And I'm a doofus:
I "still" haven't "figured out" how to do something.
What a jerk I am.
A couple of you urged me to give Dan some slack
or the benefit of the doubt. Sure. But let me also
point out that I have given Dan÷or PLANS÷the
benefit of several years' intensive work.
On a separate list, I responded to Dan's
statement that we should have lots of individual
anti-Waldorf Web sites. I suggested the idea
of "link sites." Brett suggested that such sites
should contain original text, and I accepted this
suggestion. I also accepted Margaret's suggestion
that my proposed new site should have a table
of contents near or at its beginning.
Here is part of one of Brett's messages posted
in response to my suggestion of "link sites":
"While trying to help Roger with his external link
problem amid a crystal clear communication issue,
I apparently stepped on his toes. This was not my
intention. However, I never stay where I'm not
wanted and will harbor no ill will at all if people are
in agreement with Rockin' Roger, though I'm
somewhat miffed that expressing concern for
counterproductive directions even got me here.
"So, rather than just not know that I'm not even being
read ö as per Roger's recommendation ö I'll make it
easy. Should I not hear from folks ö either on- or
off-forum; your choice ö in the next 24 hours, I'll forego
tomorrow's Annual Business Meeting and people can
consider me quietly out'a here.
"I am both confident and firm that my recommendation
to avoid "Link Sites", Home Pages looking like the
most basic of documents, and multiple copies ö or near
`nuff ö of essays getting multiple Google hits in multiple
locations by our outside community would truly do us
harm. User confusion and frustration would go up and
levels of perceived professionalism about us would go
down. There are many valid reasons why you virtually
never see any of this, currently.
"As stated, a single occurrence would not be terrible,
but if Roger'sˇ 'Any member of the WC list who wants
to could set up a "Link Site"' went anywhere at all,
especially into the double digits of number of sites,
it would be disastrous for us. How many people are
there on WC list and the-pen? We need a certain level
of quality to maintain or increase our profile and our
credibility. Compare Zooey's excellent blog to Roger's
first ö or even later ö prototype."
To summarize, Brett's writing is crystal-clear. I, on
the other hand, deserve to be mocked. And, of course,
my idea was not only bad, but it spelled potential
diaster. To my immense shame and to the ruin of
Waldorf criticism, I have put up my second site. I
urge all of you to consider doing the same.
But what of Brett's "crystal clear" help? He directed me
to a site dealing with ancient Greece. He apparently
thought that site was about "external links."
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/WebSitesevaluate.html
Check it out.
Ok. A tempest in a teacup. But for the time being,
I am "outta" here. I'm very, very sorry, and I
sincerely apologize for all my errors.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: G'bye
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 11:54 am ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Rawlings" (downfromfog@...) wrote:
)
) Ok. A tempest in a teacup. But for the time being,
) I am "outta" here. I'm very, very sorry, and I
) sincerely apologize for all my errors.
)
) --Roger
)
Problem over. Dan has written me some very kind, generous messages, probably more
generous than I would have been in his place. So I÷shamefaced÷am back.
Brett: Cease fire, ok?
I sincerely apologize for all my errors.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: G'bye
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004@yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 8:01 pm ((PDT))
So glad you are back, Roger!
Best,
Margaret
--- Roger Rawlings (downfromfog@yahoo.com) wrote:
) --- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Roger
) Rawlings" (downfromfog@...) wrote:
) )
)
) ) Ok. A tempest in a teacup. But for the time being,
) ) I am "outta" here. I'm very, very sorry, and I
) ) sincerely apologize for all my errors.
) )
) ) --Roger
) )
)
) Problem over. Dan has written me some very kind,
) generous messages, probably more
) generous than I would have been in his place. So
) I÷shamefaced÷am back.
)
) Brett: Cease fire, ok?
)
) I sincerely apologize for all my errors.
)
) --Roger
)
)
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Messages in this topic (3)
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There are 3 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Sites
From: Roger Rawlings
2. From Pete
From: petekaraiskos
3. Did you know?
From: zooey_stockholm
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1. Sites
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:14 am ((PDT))
Hi, all.
I believe that Dan and I are in agreement that it would be good
to have many more anti-Steiner/anti-Waldorf Web sites.
Dan, if I am wrong, please correct me. I think that all
anti-Waldorf members of this list would want your
guidance on such a matter
All: I believe Dan may be offline for a while. So I'd
recommend doing nothing at this stage except
perhaps reflecting on what sort of site you'd like
to create.
As I've previously said, my new site is at
http://www.waldorf-problems.com/
Having none of the necessary skills when I started work at
the new site, I found the process easy and quick. I worked
through one of two site-building tool sets made
available by Yaho, and found it to be a snap. (Yahoo
is aware that there are bugs at least one of its online
services. But perhaps the bugs have been
found and removed by now.) The only difficulty I encount-
ered resulted from one or more of these bugs. Twice, my
home page went blank. And sometimes extraneous material
showed up at the bottom of the page. I had to create that
page three times before it behaved itself. Otherwise, I was
happy with the tools Yahoo provides.
If Dan gives the nod, I'd suggest that several of you con-
sider putting up a site. (I should report that at least one
individual thinks a proliferation of sites like my new one
might be disastrous. He can explain himself here, if he
likes, or he could write to me privately and, if he agrees,
I will post his statement here, leaving out his name.
He has told me I have done something quite awful in
referring to his name on this list. So I will avoid doing so
further. And I'd suggest that he might want to delete
the message he posted here, since it reveals his name
or pseudonym÷I'm unsure which.)
The basic idea behind my new site is that it contains
numerous links to various essays, etc., that criticize
Steiner, Anthroposophy, and/or Waldorfs. I was in-
formed some time ago that a site gains visibility (or
a higher ranking in various searches) if there are many
links that lead to it. My source has had much experience
on the Net, and I trust him. To see his excellent site,
go to
http://www.quackwatch.org/index.html
So, my new list consists largely of links to essays, etc.,
that I have found informative and would like to share.
It would be possible to create a site consisting of nothing
but links, but one individual has told me this is a bad
idea, and I accepted his advice. My site now has a home
page (where I explain the site's purpose and I give an
account of myself). The site also contains several short
essays I've written plus "my sad, sad story." All of this
material originally appeared, in slightly different forms,
on this list. Those of you who have written extensively
about Steiner, Anthroposophy, and/or Steiner could
access your writings, edit them if you see a need, and
then use them as text for your new site.
One final thought: It would not be good for the links
on various sites to be identical or even close to ident-
ical. So I'd suggest that you look at my site, see where
I have left out great stuff that you think should be
publicised, and set up links to those resources.
On the other hand, I think certain texts should be
linked to from almost every anti-Waldorf site.
(Remember the Quackwatcher's advice about the
value of links.) Among the almost indispensable
I would include SPOTLIGHT ON ANTHROPOSOPHY
by Sharon Lombard
http://waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/lombard_sharon_csr0202j.htm
WHY WALDORF PROGRAMS ARE UNSUITABLE FOR PUBLIC FUNDING
by Dan Dugan
http://waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/dugan_dan_csr0202j.htm
THE RACIAL TEACHINGS OF RUDOLF STEINER
by Sven Ove Hansson.
http://www.skepticreport.com/newage/steiner.htm
and any of several essays and postings by Peter S.
perhaps my own essay, "Unenlightened," and surely
the PLANS home page. (I provide a link to it promin-
ently on my home page.: "A particularly useful site,
which I recommend highly, is
http://waldorfcritics.org/
Please remember that at least one individual
who is working selflessly to assist Dan and all of
us thinks my idea is bad. So I'd encourage everyone
to hold off until we hear from Dan on this subject.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. From Pete
Posted by: "petekaraiskos" pkcompany@netzero.net petekaraiskos
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:57 pm ((PDT))
OK - I thought I'd better drop in and say HI since it seems people
have (rightly) been wondering whether I've fallen off the face of the
planet. I'm alive and well, actually thriving - just not posting for
the moment. After almost a year of between 6 and 18 hour days at
Wikipedia, I'm taking a much needed break from Waldorf discussions...
having been literally consumed by my stint at Wiki...
I have been toying with a new Wiki-type site I created a while ago
that is devoted to Waldorf - and hope to launch that soon when I get
the first few entries polished up a bit. Every soldier needs a little
R&R - so I'm taking mine for the moment - but I'll be back.
Greetings to all...
Pete
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3. Did you know?
Posted by: "zooey_stockholm" skottehund@yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 4:34 pm ((PDT))
Anthroposophy really is magnificent! For example, all the
anthroposophical highlights, such as biodynamic farming and weird
medicine, are firmly grounded in the legacy of European thinking. As
if this wasn't enough, anthroposophists are busy defending this
fantastic legacy, for the benefit of all Europeans and I am sure the
world's inhabitants (humanitarianism is inherent in the
anthroposophical nature), and struggling for the dignity of the human
being - right now in Brussels. Also, one cannot help but marvel at how
anthroposophical wisdom and european thinking, developed during the
last centuries, converge in the E.U. charter of fundamental rights.
One might as well just conclude that this work is basically an
anthroposophical product. After all what could it have possibly been
without "Waldorf schools, anthroposophic healthcare, curative
education and biodynamic agriculture" which "are based on the legacy
of European thinkers" - really, I mean, all the european ideals are
surely in essence anthroposophical? They must be?
"On 29 June 2006 in Brussels, 10 European NGOs working on the basis of
anthroposophy discussed and signed the Charter of the European
Alliance of Initiatives for Applied Anthroposophy or ELIANT. This
charter enshrines the fact that initiatives of applied anthroposophy,
primarily in the fields of agriculture, education, special needs
education and medicine, have made a noteworthy contribution to core
values of European culture such as human dignity and individual
development."
-) http://www.eliant.eu/lang/en/?p=28
-zooey, who did experience surprisingly little of human dignity and
individual development in waldorf.
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There are 3 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: From Pete
From: Roger Rawlings
2a. Comin' Down the Road
From: Roger Rawlings
2b. Translating Steiner
From: Margaret Sachs
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: From Pete
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 6:29 am ((PST))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "petekaraiskos" (pkcompany@...) wrote:
) Every soldier needs a little
) R&R - so I'm taking mine for the moment - but I'll be back.
)
) Greetings to all...
)
) Pete
)
This is very good news.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Comin' Down the Road
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 1:08 pm ((PST))
Anybody want a sneak peek? Anthroposophist Richard Seddon
has kindly pulled together Steiner's clairvoyant predictions for
humanity's future. I'd like to share this wisdom with you. This
is the first of a series of postings. I'll pick up the story in medias
res:
"By the start of the twenty-third century, when Michael's Sun-
rulership as Time Archangel ends (though he continues as Spirit
of the Age for more than a millennium) great changes will
obviously have taken place.
"Firstly, human etheric bodies gradually loosen from the physical,
and souls begin to extricate themselves, so that a new experience,
that of the Double, is bound to become widespread. The Double
consists of everything that is clustered round the ego itself,
hitherto invisible to us because we are one with it÷our views
and opinions..".(snip. so forth and so on) "The 'I' must become
able to look on all of this as outside itself. Aspects of it, taken
hold of by Lucifer and Ahriman and distorted by unschooled astral
vision, form the first supersensible experiences, and they can be
frightening. Most people cannot understand or cope with them..."
(this is copyrighted material, so I will now switch to paraphrasing)
The prince of Lies, Ahriman, is gonna incarnate at about this time,
unless Michael (who doesn't usually do these things) prevents it.
OK. That's enough for starters. Except that I needs must add some
commentary to be sure I'm complying with the fair use rule. So let
me comment that I am stupefied that anyone (i.e., Steiner) ever made
up (or begged, borrowed, or stole) such nonsense. I'm even more
amazed that anyone buys into it. (I hold Seddon innocent. He's just
passing on Steiner's teachings.)
I think we are all acquainted with the concept of etheric bodies. And
Lucifer is an old friend. Ahriman, as I've pointed out previously, is a
Persian demon. Michael is a really, really good guy: an Archangel, even.
(This explanation becomes somewhat confused, however, when we
turn to the World Book and find the following:
Carol II (1893-1953) was king of Romania from 1930 to 1940. He
tried to prevent Germany from dominating Romania during World
War II (1939-1945), but failed.
Carol was born in Sinaia, Romania. In 1925, he gave up his right
to the throne because of his love for a commoner, Magda Lupescu.
In 1930, the government repealed the law that kept Carol from the
throne. The Iron Guard, a patriotic and anti-Communist movement,
charged that Carol's rule was corrupt. Carol had its leader assassinated
and, in 1938, made himself dictator. He outlawed the Iron Guard and
all political parties. In 1940, Germany forced Carol to give parts of
Romania to Bulgaria, Hungary, and the Soviet Union. The Iron Guard
helped force Carol from the throne. His son, Michael, succeeded him.
[World Book Multimedia Encyclopedia, Mac OS X Edition, Version 6.0.2]
I'll bring you further thrilling installments soon. Sometimes I'll tell
you what Seddon says, sometimes I'll go straight to the horse's
(bleep): Steiner.
[Richard Seddon, THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY AND THE EARTH
(East Sussex: The Temple Lodge, 2002), pp. 26-27.]
--Roger the Reader
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Translating Steiner
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004@yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 5:59 pm ((PST))
Roger, about a month ago you posted the following
Steiner quote:
) Steiner: "Vlker und Rassen sind nur die
) verschiedenen Entwickelungsstufen zur reinen
) Menschheit hin. Es steht eine Rasse, ein Volk um so
) hher, je vollkommener ihre
) Angehrigen den reinen, idealen Menschheitstypus zum
) Ausdrucke bringen, je mehr
) sie sich von dem physisch Vergnglichen zu dem
) bersinnlich Unvergnglichen
) durchgearbeitet haben. Die Entwickelung des Menschen
) durch die
) Wiederverkrperungen in immer hher stehenden Volks-
) und Rassenformen ist daher
) ein Befreiungsproze§ . Zuletzt mu§ der Mensch in
) seiner harmonischen
) Vollkommenheit erscheinen."
You asked if my brother might have a go at translating
it. I e-mailed it to him but he didn't reply so I
assumed he was too busy. Today I was thinning out my
sent items and saw that I had mistakenly sent it to my
husband instead of my brother so I forwarded it to my
brother right away. Here's his reply, followed by his
comments on the translation issues:
Peoples and Races are only different levels of
development towards a pure humankind. A race , a
people progresses, the more completely its
constituents express the pure ideal form of humankind,
and the more they have developed away from physical
transience towards psychic intransience. The
development of humankind through reimbodiment into
ever higher levels of forms of peoples and races is
therefore a process of liberation. In the end
humanity must appear in its harmonious completeness.
Note: He has made a noun (Vergnglichen) out of an
adjective (vergnglich) that I donât believe exists in
German (the noun I mean). To adhere to the original I
did the same making transience out of transient.
Other translations for vergnglich would be ephemeral,
evanescent or perishable, but I donât know how to make
nouns out of those. The sentence makes no more sense
in German than it does in English.
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There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Translating Steiner
From: Roger Rawlings
2a. Re: Comin' Down the Road
From: Roger Rawlings
2b. Re: Comin' Down the Road
From: Roger Rawlings
3a. Over
From: Roger Rawlings
3b. Re: Over
From: winters_diana
3c. Re: Over
From: winters_diana
3d. Re: Over
From: Margaret Sachs
4a. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
From: Debra Snell
5. New Enclyclopedia of Unbelief
From: Dan Dugan
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Translating Steiner
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:16 am ((PST))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, Margaret Sachs (powerofjoy2004@...) wrote:
)The sentence makes no more sense
) in German than it does in English.
Yes. That's the fun of Steiner.
Thank you, and please thank your brother for me.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Comin' Down the Road
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:15 am ((PST))
OK. Moving right along:
"From the early twenty-third to the late twenty-sixth century
the ruling Archangel is Oriphiel, the Archangel of the Saturn
sphere. His last rulership from the second century BC to the
second century AD was characterized by the decline of Greek
culture and the rise of the Roman Empire...." [Richard Seddon,
THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY AND THE EARTH (East Sussex: The
Temple Lodge, 2002), p. 29.]
"When a human being living here upon Earth causes a thought,
an idea, from occult science to quicken within him, so that it
can be registered in the akashic substance, then he becomes
visible to other souls living between death and a new birth."
[Rudolf Steinerr, Occult Science and Occult Development,
Kessinger Publishing, 2003] Don't blame me. This is where
Seddon's footnote takes us, more or less. Actually, he specified
p.1, but that's the title page.
"Those who today study spiritual science and understand the
true nature of the soul crystallize their ego, carry it through
death and will be able to recognize it; those who clearly
inscribe esoteric thoughts into the Akashic* can use the organ
rightly." [THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY AND THE EARTH, p.30.}
Sorry. This is getting a little confusing. We are stuck in the chapter
called "The Future of the Fifth Age." The Akashic record, as it
is usuallty called, is usually thought to be a record of everything
that has ever happened. But Steiner, above, restricts admission.
As for the "organ," sadly, it is not what you may be thinking. It is
an organ of clairvoyance. Trust me, I'm not making this up.
Maybe we should pick up the pace?
"The sixth Post-Atlantean cultural age, the so-called Russian age,
extends from 3573 to 5733." [THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY AND
THE EARTH, p.41.]
The RUSSIAN Age? Hello? Didn't we win the Cold War? Oh, skip it.
"Atlantean" refers to Atlantis. One would almost begin to doubt
Steiner, here. But see how precise he (or Seddon, anyway) is about
dates. What could be clearer?
"But when things of the physical world of the senses cease to be
all-impotant and fade into shadow, human beings will either find
that the physical is vanishing while they remain incapable of
believing in the spiritual realities before them or they will be able
to believe and preserve for themselves an awareness of these
spiritual realities÷and for them there will then be no spiritual death."
[ Rudolf Steiner, Easter: An Introductory ReaderĘ(Rudolf Steiner Press,
2007), p. 129.
Gosh. Spiritual death sounds pretty bad. But let's look on the
bright side: We'll all be dead long before the Sixth Age begins.
As for "the physical world of the senses ," that's what some of
us call reality.
Don't touch that dial! More to come.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Comin' Down the Road
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:46 pm ((PST))
"Leading up to the middle of this age [the Sixth], some time
about 4300 to 4700, it is the turn of Michael (now an Archon
but no longer Spirit of the Age) to act again as the ruling Time
Archangel; so a further enhancement of the Christ impulse may
then be expected. By now many people have made the eightfold
path of Buddha their own in its modern form, which leads
through conscious exercises to the unfolding of the 16-petal
lotus flower in the larynx." [Seddon, THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY,
p.49]
Some of that sounds like pretty good news. But having a lotus
flower of any number of petals unfold in one's larynx...I guess
I'd opt out, on that one. Of course, it's nice to have Michael
back again. But Seddon's sudden uncertainty about dates is a
little surprising, given what we've heard from him previously.
"This age in fact recapitulates the Persian (Gemini) age,
especially its experience of the polarities between light
and dark, good and evil, which is now an actual division
between good and evil races." [Ibid., p. 53]
You know how Google Book Searches work? Book publishers
can have Google block your access to certain pages. Is anyone
surprised that p. 53 is blocked? Yet Seddon is only telling the
Steinerian truth when he speaks of good and evil races. Why
the cover-up? Oh, wait, Anthroposophists cover up many
things, don't they? But it may prove to be a losing game for
them, now in the Internet Age. (Oddly, this is one Age Steiner
didn't predict.)
"A wonderful legend describes to us the state of development
of the soul. The soul is in a different line of evolution than the
body of the human being.The difference between soul and racial
development can be seen if we look into the past. Souls were
incarnated many times in the Atlantean race; all of you were
Atlanteans at that time. The souls worked themselves out of
that situation and the remaining human bodies belonged to
the races that had become decadent and were falling into
decline. The souls left the bodies of the races and rose upto
higher races. Human bodies afflicted with fundamental evil will
not have souls within them that are striving to rise above their
present state to a higher one." [Rudolf Steiner, READING THE
PICTURES OF THE APOCALYPSE (SteinerBooks, 1993), pp. 49-50.]
Yes indeed, that's a really swell legend. Bear in mind that for
Steiner, legends, myths, even folktales contain and reveal truth.
What we're looking at, here, is one of Steiner's preoccupying
fixations.
"This was the reason that the lower races had fewer and fewer
descendants, while the higher races had more and more.
Gradually the lowest levels of the ... (etc.)" [Rudolf Steiner,
THE SPIRITUAL FOUNDATION OF MORALITY (SteinerBooks,
1995), p. 30.]
"...Dubois set out in a most lucid manner the relation of this
intermediate link between man and ape, on the one hand to
the lower races of humanity, on the other to the known
anthropoid apes. Virchow declared that the skull and the
thigh-bone did not (fill in the blank)." [Rudolf Steiner,
THREE ESSAYS ON HAECKEL AND KARMA, 1914 (Book Jungle,
2006), p. 133]
OK, OK. This stuff isn't funny, and we've wandered far from
the Sixth Age, and I haven't yet really nailed Steiner for his
racism. So let me haul out one of my old reliables, and then
we can go back to the future.
"A race or a nation stands so much the higher, the more
perfectly its members express the pure, ideal human type,
the further they have worked their way from the physical
and perishable to the supersensible and imperishable."
[Rudolf Steiner, KNOWLEDGE OF THE HIGHER WORLDS
AND ITS ATTAINMEN (Steiner Books, 1947), p. 252.]
Haeckel, by the way, is not Heckle and Jeckle's evil cousin.
According to the EB, Haeckel, Ernst was a "German zoologist
and evolutionist who was a strong proponent of Darwinism
and who proposed new notions of the evolutionary descent
of human beings."
OK! Tomorrow: the Seventh Age!
--Roger
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Over
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 8:45 pm ((PST))
Does no one have anything to say smart, pungent, incisive
here÷to rip me apart÷where statements can be verified?
Not that it would make much difference; I've made my
choice.
Some of you may want to compare what you said to me confidentially
to what you have posted elsewhere. Diana's recent reply to my
long, carefully replied posting was the last straw. (I realize, Diana,
that you mat say I didn't understand. B.S.)
I hereby go away. I meant to stay longer, even permanenttly,
but after the recent bombardment....
Live long and prorper.
I will create another Web site or two, Visit, if you
like. But I'm long gone here. None can be more surprised
than I am, and none happier or sorrier than I. (As Olaf
said, "There is some shit I will not eat.")
Roger
R
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Over
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:26 pm ((PST))
Roger, please, one more tiny exhortation from me - what about getting
some sleep and looking again at this in the morning? It is possible
things will seem different. I would say no one else has replied
because people are asleep, as you should be, and me too!
I could not reply point by point to your long, careful last posting
because you were already telling me that my own replies were
misunderstandings and that anything I said to try to answer was just
bombarding you. Every paragraph said I do undersand this Diana don't
keep repeating it - that I should not talk about it anymore. That is
why instead of replying to each point, I gave up, I said okay forget
it then. I agreed it was not worthwhile. It is obviously not solvable
that way - you were right about that. I told you off list that I was
very sad about it.
There is now only the option of going away mad, or trying to let it
blow over, giving people the benefit of the doubt that no one meant
you harm - you are treasured and admired and respected here. I am
still hoping that you are going to choose to let this blow over.
Diana
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Rawlings"
(downfromfog@...) wrote:
)
) Does no one have anything to say smart, pungent, incisive
) here÷to rip me apart÷where statements can be verified?
) Not that it would make much difference; I've made my
) choice.
)
) Some of you may want to compare what you said to me confidentially
) to what you have posted elsewhere. Diana's recent reply to my
) long, carefully replied posting was the last straw. (I realize,
Diana,
) that you mat say I didn't understand. B.S.)
)
) I hereby go away. I meant to stay longer, even permanenttly,
) but after the recent bombardment....
)
) Live long and prorper.
)
) I will create another Web site or two, Visit, if you
) like. But I'm long gone here. None can be more surprised
) than I am, and none happier or sorrier than I. (As Olaf
) said, "There is some shit I will not eat.")
)
) Roger
)
) R
)
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Over
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:56 pm ((PST))
Roger:
)Some of you may want to compare what you said to me confidentially
)to what you have posted elsewhere. Diana's recent reply to my
)long, carefully replied posting was the last straw.
Roger, I just re-read what I wrote to you privately a couple of hours
ago, which seemingly got you even more upset, and I considered re-
posting it here. Decided against it because it contained some personal
info. It says what I've said in public only more emotionally: I'm
distraught about this, confused, somewhat angry but also really
astonished at your anger, and again I beg you again to reconsider
calmly.
Diana
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: Over
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004@yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:26 pm ((PST))
--- winters_diana (diana.winters@verizon.net) wrote:
) you are treasured and admired and
) respected here.
I'm sure you already know, Roger, that I second this.
Best,
Margaret
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________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
Posted by: "Debra Snell" snell@gv.net debrasnell
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 10:14 pm ((PST))
Sergio,
I am posting this on the Waldorf Critics list for discussion. Please
join and share your views.
Best,
Debra
On Nov 5, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Sergio Di Nunzio wrote:
With all my respects:,
My name is Sergio, I live in Buenos Aires, and my daughter (10) is
attending to a Waldorf school since she was 6 year old.
Iâm really trying to understand, why is it that your organization
think that the Anthroposophist philosophy is something to fight against.
Is obvious, hat if you do not fell that the Anthroposophy is a path
to walk in life, there is no need to search for the fundamental
motivation not to send your kids to these type of orientation.
But if you are deeply concern about looking for a place where to
plant the seed of something different for the world, different from
what we see all days in the streets, in the TV, etc, ăonly thenä you
start seeing and appreciating these path, and the tremendous
important to receive the waldorf education .
Basically when someone is not prepared to embraced the idea of a
Human being composed in the way the antroposophical philosophy does,
( Etheric, Astral, Spiritual I (if you search for free Spiritual
concepts, you will find itâs not the only one that stands the same)
is better to continue in an materialistic education, that will
provide you with all the information to search for a ăgood job.ä
I know that, understanding the idea that it is our own hate for no
reason that creates war, and all the ănatural disastersä is a very
difficult issue.
But now a days Quantum physics is saying that there are 10 dimension
and that 6 of them are enfolded in one, and that our thoughts create
reality (I recommend you to see the movie ăwhat the bleep do we knowä)
An orientation that provides the tools for the correct metamorphosis
of the Human Ego is a path that enables the human consciousness to
free from the animalism slavery actual condition. (Merely reactive
consciousness) (but we think that we are evolving, only because we
are sophisticated people)
I am in contact we people of an 60 years old average , and it is
very sad to see them with no transcendental ideas, repeating the same
old things, blaming the government, blaming theirs wives, or their
kids, for their own frustrations.
When you truly decide to improve your life by changing the old
patterns, into some proactive direction, you begin to discover where
the blockages areˇˇ
ˇˇ.Yes, that blockages are deep inside, because the developed in the
early years.
Reincarnation and Karma, are spiritual laws, like the law of cause
an effect. They produce their effects no matter if you are acquainted
to that or not. (Like gravity).
Iâve just read several of your articles in the web, and I thought
what peaty to spend so much time writing against something, instead
of using that energy in trying to comprehend the greats enigmas of life.
Sincerely,
Sergio di Nunzio
Buenos Aires
Argentina.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5. New Enclyclopedia of Unbelief
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan@dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 10:51 pm ((PST))
I've received my complimentary copy of The New Encyclopedia of
Unbelief, Edited by Tom Flynn, Foreword by Richard Dawkins. My
article "Anthroposophy" starts on page 74.
(http://www.amazon.com/New-Encyclopedia-Unbelief-Richard-Dawkins/dp/1591023912/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-9348633-9993444?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194318183&sr=1-2)
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
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(x-charset UTF-8)There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
From: Margaret Sachs
1b. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
From: Margaret Sachs
1c. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
From: Margaret Sachs
1d. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
From: Margaret Sachs
1e. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
From: Margaret Sachs
2a. Re: New Enclyclopedia of Unbelief
From: winters_diana
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004@yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 3:45 pm ((PST))
On Nov 5, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Sergio Di Nunzio wrote:
My name is Sergio, I live in Buenos Aires, and my daughter (10) is
attending to a Waldorf school since she was 6 year old.
Welcome to this list, Sergio.
Iâm really trying to understand, why is it that your organization
think that the Anthroposophist philosophy is something to fight
against.
Is obvious, hat if you do not fell that the Anthroposophy is a path
to walk in life, there is no need to search for the fundamental
motivation not to send your kids to these type of orientation.
I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying here but I believe you're saying that if people do not like Anthroposophy they should not send their children to Waldorf schools. If that is what you are saying, that is exactly why critics believe Waldorf schools should disclose the full Anthroposophical orientation of Waldorf education. Waldorf PR does not disclose this and some people have been lied to verbally about Anthroposophy's role in the curriculum. No organization should use deception to deny parents the choice of rejecting a religious or philosophical education for their children that they might not agree with.
Basically when someone is not prepared to embraced the idea of a
Human being composed in the way the antroposophical philosophy does,
( Etheric, Astral, Spiritual I (if you search for free Spiritual
concepts, you will find itâs not the only one that stands the same)
is better to continue in an materialistic education, that will
provide you with all the information to search for a âgood job.â
You seem to be suggesting that an education that leads to a good job must be exclusive of spiritual values and that having a good job is a bad thing. Just about everyone, with the exception of the offspring of the exceptionally rich and the severely disabled, has to work as an adult. If one of Waldorf's main goals is not to provide children the academic and intellectual skills to be able to earn a decent living as adults, then that should be disclosed to prospective parents who are not Anthroposophists before they enroll their children in a Waldorf school.
Best,
Margaret
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1b. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004@yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 4:28 pm ((PST))
I've just switched to the "new" Yahoo mail system and when I responded to Sergio's e-mail it did not automatically mark his text. I've marked it manually and posted it again it below. Anybody know what I need to do to fix the problem?
On Nov 5, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Sergio Di Nunzio wrote:
) My name is Sergio, I live in Buenos Aires, and my daughter (10) is
) attending to a Waldorf school since she was 6 year old.
Welcome to this list, Sergio.
) Iâm really trying to understand, why is it that your organization
) think that the Anthroposophist philosophy is something to fight
) against.
) Is obvious, hat if you do not fell that the Anthroposophy is a path
) to walk in life, there is no need to search for the fundamental
) motivation not to send your kids to these type of orientation.
I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying here but I believe you're saying that if people do not like Anthroposophy they should not send their children to Waldorf schools. If that is what you are saying, that is exactly why critics believe Waldorf schools should disclose the full Anthroposophical orientation of Waldorf education. Waldorf PR does not disclose this and some people have been lied to verbally about Anthroposophy' s role in the curriculum. No organization should use deception to deny parents the choice of rejecting a religious or philosophical education for their children that they might not agree with.
) Basically when someone is not prepared to embraced the idea of a
) Human being composed in the way the antroposophical philosophy does,
) ( Etheric, Astral, Spiritual I (if you search for free Spiritual
) concepts, you will find itâs not the only one that stands the same)
) is better to continue in an materialistic education, that will
) provide you with all the information to search for a âgood job.â
You seem to be suggesting that an education that leads to a good job must be exclusive of spiritual values and that having a good job is a bad thing. Just about everyone, with the exception of the offspring of the exceptionally rich and the severely disabled, has to work as an adult. If one of Waldorf's main goals is not to provide children the academic and intellectual skills to be able to earn a decent living as adults, then that should be disclosed to prospective parents who are not Anthroposophists before they enroll their children in a Waldorf school.
Best,
Margaret
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1c. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004@yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:08 pm ((PST))
I've just switched to the "new" Yahoo mail system and when I responded to Sergio's e-mail it did not automatically mark his text. I've marked it manually and posted it again it below. Anybody know what I need to do to fix the problem?
I think I've figured it out.
Margaret
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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1d. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004@yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:29 pm ((PST))
I've just switched to the "new" Yahoo mail system and when I responded to Sergio's e-mail it did not automatically mark his text. I've marked it manually and posted it again it below. Anybody know what I need to do to fix the problem?
I think I've figured it out.
Margaret
No, I didn't. Trying again. Please excuse me, everyone, while I have these conversations with myself.
Margaret
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1e. Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004@yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:37 pm ((PST))
----- Original Message ----
From: Margaret Sachs (powerofjoy2004@yahoo.com)
To: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 7:29:27 PM
Subject: Re: [wc] Re: www.waldorfcritics.org feedback
I've just switched to the "new" Yahoo mail system and when I responded to Sergio's e-mail it did not automatically mark his text. I've marked it manually and posted it again it below. Anybody know what I need to do to fix the problem?
I think I've figured it out.
Margaret
No, I didn't. Trying again. Please excuse me, everyone, while I have these conversations with myself.
Margaret
I give up
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2a. Re: New Enclyclopedia of Unbelief
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:31 pm ((PST))
) I've received my complimentary copy of The New Encyclopedia of
) Unbelief, Edited by Tom Flynn, Foreword by Richard Dawkins. My
) article "Anthroposophy" starts on page 74.
) (http://www.amazon.com/New-Encyclopedia-Unbelief-Richard-
Dawkins/dp/1591023912/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-9348633-9993444?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194318183&sr=1-2)
Congratulations, Dan. Can you quote from it for us?
It's quite an achievement to get a piece in a book with a foreword by
the illustrious Richard Dawkins.
I must admit I've really been enjoying the spate of Dawkins-inspired
atheist rants in the bookstores lately.
Diana
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There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Steiner and Nazism
From: Dan Dugan
2a. Re: Nazi Motherhood Denial
From: Dan Dugan
3a. Re: Critical Harmonic Christian Community Convergence
From: Dan Dugan
4.1. Re: Steiner, anthroposophy and history
From: Dan Dugan
5. violence in waldorf schools, more common or not?
From: zooey_stockholm
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Steiner and Nazism
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan@dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 11:13 am ((PST))
Brad Martin wrote:
)Rudolf Steiner died 8 years before the Nazis came to power.
)
)What brought me back into this WC lovefest was Peter Staudenmaier's
)ramblings on Steiner, Nazis and concentration camps in an earlier
)email. His loose associations were beyond egregious, almost obscene.
)Some young mother looking for information on schooling for her
)kindergardener with very little knowledge on schooling options, would
)be rather taken aback by these statements.
Yes, that's a public benefit of having this discussion. People should
be aware that the people behind Waldorf espouse racial theories that
were part of the Nazi mythology.
)Who has hijacked this chatroom on Waldorf schooling is Peter S. Most
)of what he writes is off topic.
Anthroposophical racism has been a frequent topic on this list from
the beginning, long before Peter joined the discussion. It can't be
avoided if you read Anthropsophical publications.
)The evidence strongly suggests that
)the book on Steiner and anthroposophy that Staudenmaier is writing,
)will be an ideological screed, giving an extremist and misunderstood
)interpretation of anthroposophy/theosophy/perennial philosophy.
The racism in Anthroposophy has nothing to do with "perennial philosophy."
Anthroposophy's race theory was old-fashioned in its time. It's an
extremist position today. Only a lunatic fringe believes Steiner's
racial teachings. Do you want a group like that raising your children?
)These
)ramblings of Peter S. reminds me of the US Senator McCarthy era of
)communist witchhunts and guilt by association.
)
)Dan Dugan, this chatroom provides evidence for underqualified
)teachers, continuity problems, etc., in Waldorf, that needs
)corrected. The ideological and extremist Peter Staudenmaier will
)eventually destroy any good you may accomplish.
Your use of an ad hominem argument reveals the poverty of your position.
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (155)
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________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Nazi Motherhood Denial
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan@dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 11:13 am ((PST))
Tom Mellett, you quoted:
)BERLIN (AP) - A quarter of Germans believe there were some positive
)aspects to Nazi rule, according to a poll published Wednesday÷a
)finding that comes after a popular talk show host was fired for praising
)Nazi Germany's attitude toward motherhood.
)
)Pollsters for the Forsa agency, commissioned by the weekly magazine
)Stern, asked whether National Socialism also had some "good sides (such
)as) the construction of the highway system, the elimination of
)unemployment, the low criminality rate (and) the encouragement of the
)family."
)
)Forsa said 25% responded "yes"÷but 70% said "no."
It seems to me that the German laws go too far if
they ban saying that the Nazi regime did anything
good. We like Volkswagens, for example.
There's a parallel in the way we try to teach
kids about drugs, talking only about the
degradation and horrors of addiction. In my view,
a good drug education program would go into
detail the reasons why people use drugs--they
feel so good the downside is worth it.
I think it's really important to understand why
Germans embraced Naziism. Our popular
entertainment portrays Nazis as sadistic monsters
and villains. That they were, but people didn't
sign up to be murderers. It was a movement of
national salvation, a spiritual renewal that
would replace the creaking old materialistic
politics with shining new ideals of service and
self-sacrifice, buoyed by art, music, fellowship
and good deeds.
One must always be cautious about a movement for
personal and social transformation.
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Critical Harmonic Christian Community Convergence
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan@dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 11:13 am ((PST))
Tom Mellett, you wrote,
)I purposely use the media clich "smoking gun" to segue into the other
)special anniversary, Dan, the ten year anniversary of the murder of
)Denver policeman, Bruce Vander Jagt, by Mattheus Jaehnig, which
)occurred on November 12, 1997. For those unaware of the connection,
)Mattheus, or Teo, was the son of the late Christian Community priest
)of Denver, Diethart Jaehnig, someone whom I could call a good personal
)friend ever since I met him in 1978. Of course, Diethart attended the
)CC seminary in Stuttgart when Fritz Benesch was the Director. And
)indeed it was from Diethart's recommendation of Benesch that I myself
)read many of Benesch's books.
)
)With a decade's hindsight, I now consider that Teo's acting out of
)neo-Nazi hatred in the 90s was the epigenetic and/or systemic
)inheritance of the suppressed Nazi past of Friedrich Benesch and the
)experience of Teo's father Diethart himself being a young German boy
)refugee during the war, his home and family being bombed out by the
)Allies.
)
)(NOTE: We can discuss epigenetics and systemic family inheritance
)another time. Here I'll leave you with a few websites
)http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/plus/sfg/resources/res_epigenetics.dtl
)The Ghost in your Genes
)http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/ghostgenes.shtml
)Bert Hellinger's Systemic Family Constellation Therapy:
)http://www.hellingerpa.com/ )
)
)Dan, your diligence and perseverance is well appreciated. With just
)one click we can all walk down Critics Memory Lane --- I should be
)more anthroposophically Correct and call it: or the Critics Akashic
)Chronicle.
)
)Here is the WC Archive for November 1997. If you put "Jaehnig" into
)the Find Box, you'll come to the original post you made, one that I
)forwarded you 5 days after the event.
)http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/archives/WCA9711.html
)
)Also, your PLANS Press release of November 26, 1997
)http://waldorfcritics.org/active/pressreleases/PR19971126.html
)
)And this interesting article in the New York Times dated December 13, 1997
)http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9804E4DA1F3CF930A25751C1A961958260
)
)
)Also, over the last ten years, there has been relentless interest in
)this case, not for Teo directly but for the fact that the young woman
)who was present with him in the car that day ended up being convicted
)of first degree murder and sentenced to life imprisonment. Her name is
)Lisl Auman and it appears that she has, with the help of Gonzo
)journalist Hunter S. Thompson in the last project of his life, finally
)been released from prison
)
)http://www.lisl.com/
)http://www.lisl.com/articles/cowoman.html
)http://www.westword.com/1999-04-15/news/zero-to-life/
)
)Here is the video about Hunter Thompson's crusade to free her.
)
)Free Lisl: Fear & Loathing in Denver (2006)
)explores the most significant achievement of Dr. Hunter S. Thompson's
)last years --- the freeing of Lisl Auman who was sentenced to life
)without parole at the age of 21.
)
)http://www.hunterthompsonfilms.com/
)
)So, as we approach the time of the Day of the Dead, let us remember
)those who have died and especially listen to those who wish to speak
)from beyond the grave and set the living record straight.
I had no idea that whole saga was a consequence
of the murder. Thanks for filling us in.
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________
4.1. Re: Steiner, anthroposophy and history
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan@dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 11:13 am ((PST))
Brad Martin, you wrote,
)Over time, and becoming more aware of the actuality of Waldorf and
)anthroposophy, that thought has crossed my mind, as well. When I first
)came to Steiner years ago in my inquiry on the 'inner directed' (to use
)the phrase) in history I could see he was writing in the larger vein,
)but I lost interest after Philosophy of Freedom.
After that Steiner gave up on academic philosophy and went into
Theosophy, then splitting off to form his own cult. The philosophy
you admire was pre-Anthroposophy! It's a big mistake to believe that
Anthroposophy and Waldorf schools represent the values you found in
the early Steiner.
)Waldorf seems to have some real startup problems in the US, perhaps
)elsewhere, and I wonder if they will last, be folded into Montessori,
)or whatever.
Our world-wide correspondents assure us that Waldorf follows the same
principles everywhere, and that the problems that PLANS complains
about are universal.
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (155)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5. violence in waldorf schools, more common or not?
Posted by: "zooey_stockholm" skottehund@yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 11:33 am ((PST))
This is something I have been thinking of. Today I was reminded of it
again. In the media coverage of the school shooting that killed 8
people in a school in Finland today, prior incidents in other Finnish
schools were reported too. Apparently, in October of this year in a
Steiner school in Tammerfors/Tampere, a student slashed another
student in the stomach area with a knife.
Not long ago I read a list of reported violations in schools in the
Stockholm area, and some waldorf schools, among them my old school,
were among those with the most incident reports to authorities. (I
have searched for this article on the internet, but can't find it. It
may have been published only in the 'real' paper.)
My personal experience is that violence was shockingly present in 'my'
waldorf school. In grades 1 to 4 we had one student in our class who
had frequent violent outbursts. Once he threw another child into the
clothes hangers, resulting in the victim having to go to hospital to
have the head stitched back together. None the less he stayed several
years in the class after this incident. (He lived in an anthroposophic
foster family, maybe this was the reason he didn't get transfered to
another school which could have dealt with him better.)
As far as being the victim myself, I was (quite beside being bullied
for the 9 years I stayed in kindergarten and school) during lesson
time, i e with the teacher present: pinched until my hands bled and
were bruised (this happened twice, and in kindergarten my mom asked
the teachers why I had these wounds, and the teacher told my mom I had
provoked the other girl... however, this provocation must have been me
being totally in-active and non-participating, because I really tried
to stay out of some kids ways), once during music lesson kicked in the
back repeated times resulting in me hardly being able to breath and
stand upright (lasted days), being hit in the head repeatedly with a
wooden 'hammer' during one crafts lesson. (The latter incident
resulted in damage that wasn't apparent until 15 years later when I
went to the doctor for a problem - and she asked me, if I had ever
been in a motorcycle accident or had been hit head severly in a
fight... because the problem I had was a typical consequence of heavy
blows to the head (and mostly seen in men between 18 and 30...), and
indeed, often consequences don't show immediately. At the time it
happened, I just couldn't stand up and had a headache afterwards, but
otherwise everything seemed 'just fine'.) These are the most severe
events, but violence was constantly present - people fighting,
hitting, beating each other up, and so on. I don't think a teacher
ever did anything to interfere, except the kid who needed stitches was
sent to a hospital (too serious to be cured with curative eurythmy, I
guess). The last two years I spent in waldorf, I was beat up almost
every day by my two so called friends, this being what I had to deal
with on top of the more shocking incidents I related to above.
Violence was a part of the culture even among 'friends'.
I'm not saying the school I went to after waldorf was perfect in all
respects, because it wasn't, but at least it didn't have this
acceptance of violence and mean behaviour. At least teachers were
present, in mind and body, to oversee the students and they did
interfere and did partake actively in the students environment.
I have kind of had the idea that waldorf teachers are so immersed in
their own spiritual development and activities that they forget their
this-worldly-commitments. Also, all signs that something is not quite
right are just ignored. Waldorf is heaven on earth, and all evidence
of the contrary are just not noted.
-zooey
Messages in this topic (1)
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There are 16 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Advice Please?!
From: lilylady868
1b. Re: Advice Please?!
From: exnyers@comcast.net
1c. Re: Advice Please?!
From: joiedevivre68
1d. Re: Advice Please?!
From: winters_diana
1e. Re: Advice Please?!
From: lilylady868
1f. Re: Advice Please?!
From: winters_diana
1g. Re: Advice Please?!
From: winters_diana
1h. Re: Advice Please?!
From: winters_diana
1i. AW: [wc] Re: Advice Please?!
From: Bruce Jackson
1j. Re: Advice Please?!
From: winters_diana
1k. Re: Advice Please?!
From: Debra Snell
1l. Re: Advice Please?!
From: Dan Dugan
1m. Re: Advice Please?!
From: Walden
1n. AW: [wc] Re: Advice Please?!
From: Bruce Jackson
2a. Re: New Enclyclopedia of Unbelief
From: Dan Dugan
3. Illiterate doesn't mean ignorant?
From: Dan Dugan
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Advice Please?!
Posted by: "lilylady868" lilylady868@yahoo.com lilylady868
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:32 am ((PST))
Hello--I won't go into the whole story now, because it would just take
too long, and I have barely energy left from all the lost sleep. The
short story is that we pulled out my 7 year old son from Waldorf last
week (after 2 months) because he was deeply unhappy, (crying daily,
feigning illness to stay home from school, even wetting the bed!!) and
just NOT himself. We had paid nearly $1900 for 2 months, and had been
encouraged the whole time to just wait a little longer to see if he
would adjust. When I went to them with a definite decision to pull
him out I was told we were over the 45 day trial period, and that they
were "supposed to" charge us for the whole year, but out of the
kindness of their hearts, they would call it even. After going home
and searching online to see if anyone else had had this kind of issue,
and after knowing what we know now about Steiner (I had no idea that
they _literally_ took his teachings into the classroom, because they
were so secretive about it, even when I pressed them for answers...)
we feel profound relief that we got out when we did. We feel
extremely duped and violated. There are many more words to describe
what we are feeling, but I am too drained to even think anymore. Oh,
I am rambling when I did not mean to!! My question is this. When the
teacher took him in the class alone to do "just a few little tests",
and came back telling me that he was cross-dominant, and that she had
never seen that before, "in this way", and that she needed to talk to
her "mentor" about "what to do". What exactly did she mean?? When I
questioned her further, THREE TIMES more I was snowed EACH TIME. I
even asked another mother in the class (who also happens to be the
"Director of Community Development") if she knew what that meant, and
her only response was that her older son was, too, but he's fine now,
("worked it out" I think she said) and she asked if I knew anything
about Steiner Philosophy (I am such a damn idiot!!) and that she would
go home and find some information and email me a link. She never did.
I'm so confused, and angry! Does anyone know what they may have done
to "correct" this, or anything I can do? This is the first time I
have spoken to anyone who knows Waldorf's real agenda...
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "exnyers@comcast.net" exnyers@comcast.net healwithme
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:53 am ((PST))
Hello,
I can't really offer you any advice or help on your specific question. We pulled our son out of the pre-k at our local Waldorf before school actually started. We, too, went into enrollment without having had full disclosure from the school. After some "accidental" research ( I was actually looking for some general Waldorf info... not looking for negative info) I found lots of information that scared the hell out of me. Since we had paid up front, we got most (but not ALL) of our money back. After some other attempts at finding the right school, we ended up homeschooling my son. That's where we are today and we are very happy with our decision.
I know you'll get some great, insightful, understanding and supportive replies from other members of this list... members who have really been through it. I just wanted let you know that even with my limited experience with Waldorf, I understand.
Warmly,
Kim
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "lilylady868" (lilylady868@yahoo.com)
Hello--I won't go into the whole story now, because it would just take
too long, and I have barely energy left from all the lost sleep. The
short story is that we pulled out my 7 year old son from Waldorf last
week (after 2 months) because he was deeply unhappy, (crying daily,
feigning illness to stay home from school, even wetting the bed!!) and
just NOT himself. We had paid nearly $1900 for 2 months, and had been
encouraged the whole time to just wait a little longer to see if he
would adjust. When I went to them with a definite decision to pull
him out I was told we were over the 45 day trial period, and that they
were "supposed to" charge us for the whole year, but out of the
kindness of their hearts, they would call it even. After going home
and searching online to see if anyone else had had this kind of issue,
and after knowing what we know now about Steiner (I had no idea that
they _literally_ took his teachings into the classroom, because they
were so secretive about it, even when I pressed them for answers...)
we feel profound relief that we got out when we did. We feel
extremely duped and violated. There are many more words to describe
what we are feeling, but I am too drained to even think anymore. Oh,
I am rambling when I did not mean to!! My question is this. When the
teacher took him in the class alone to do "just a few little tests",
and came back telling me that he was cross-dominant, and that she had
never seen that before, "in this way", and that she needed to talk to
her "mentor" about "what to do". What exactly did she mean?? When I
questioned her further, THREE TIMES more I was snowed EACH TIME. I
even asked another mother in the class (who also happens to be the
"Director of Community Development") if she knew what that meant, and
her only response was that her older son was, too, but he's fine now,
("worked it out" I think she said) and she asked if I knew anything
about Steiner Philosophy (I am such a damn idiot!!) and that she would
go home and find some information and email me a link. She never did.
I'm so confused, and angry! Does anyone know what they may have done
to "correct" this, or anything I can do? This is the first time I
have spoken to anyone who knows Waldorf's real agenda...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "joiedevivre68" joiedevivre68@yahoo.com joiedevivre68
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:16 pm ((PST))
Cross-dominance has nothing to do with Waldorf education; it is a
concept drawn from traditional psychology. Children usually begin to
preferentially use one hand to draw or write. They also begin to
prefer one leg (for example to hop), one eye (check with a
kaleidoscope or little telescope), one ear, and so on. Many children
have all of the preferences on one side: right-handed, right-legged,
right-eye preference, etc. Some children have mixed or
cross-dominance, meaning that the preferences do not correspond. As
far as I understand, in educational psychology this is an indication
to check for possible dyslexia or learning difficulties.
Joy
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, exnyers@... wrote:
)
) Hello,
) I can't really offer you any advice or help on your specific
question. We pulled our son out of the pre-k at our local Waldorf
before school actually started. We, too, went into enrollment without
having had full disclosure from the school. After some "accidental"
research ( I was actually looking for some general Waldorf info... not
looking for negative info) I found lots of information that scared the
hell out of me. Since we had paid up front, we got most (but not ALL)
of our money back. After some other attempts at finding the right
school, we ended up homeschooling my son. That's where we are today
and we are very happy with our decision.
) I know you'll get some great, insightful, understanding and
supportive replies from other members of this list... members who have
really been through it. I just wanted let you know that even with my
limited experience with Waldorf, I understand.
)
) Warmly,
) Kim
)
)
)
) -------------- Original message --------------
) From: "lilylady868" (lilylady868@...)
) Hello--I won't go into the whole story now, because it would just take
) too long, and I have barely energy left from all the lost sleep. The
) short story is that we pulled out my 7 year old son from Waldorf last
) week (after 2 months) because he was deeply unhappy, (crying daily,
) feigning illness to stay home from school, even wetting the bed!!) and
) just NOT himself. We had paid nearly $1900 for 2 months, and had been
) encouraged the whole time to just wait a little longer to see if he
) would adjust. When I went to them with a definite decision to pull
) him out I was told we were over the 45 day trial period, and that they
) were "supposed to" charge us for the whole year, but out of the
) kindness of their hearts, they would call it even. After going home
) and searching online to see if anyone else had had this kind of issue,
) and after knowing what we know now about Steiner (I had no idea that
) they _literally_ took his teachings into the classroom, because they
) were so secretive about it, even when I pressed them for answers...)
) we feel profound relief that we got out when we did. We feel
) extremely duped and violated. There are many more words to describe
) what we are feeling, but I am too drained to even think anymore. Oh,
) I am rambling when I did not mean to!! My question is this. When the
) teacher took him in the class alone to do "just a few little tests",
) and came back telling me that he was cross-dominant, and that she had
) never seen that before, "in this way", and that she needed to talk to
) her "mentor" about "what to do". What exactly did she mean?? When I
) questioned her further, THREE TIMES more I was snowed EACH TIME. I
) even asked another mother in the class (who also happens to be the
) "Director of Community Development") if she knew what that meant, and
) her only response was that her older son was, too, but he's fine now,
) ("worked it out" I think she said) and she asked if I knew anything
) about Steiner Philosophy (I am such a damn idiot!!) and that she would
) go home and find some information and email me a link. She never did.
) I'm so confused, and angry! Does anyone know what they may have done
) to "correct" this, or anything I can do? This is the first time I
) have spoken to anyone who knows Waldorf's real agenda...
)
)
)
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))
lilylady wrote:
)When the teacher took him in the class alone to do "just a few
)little tests", and came back telling me that he was cross-dominant,
)and that she had never seen that before, "in this way", and that she
)needed to talk to her "mentor" about "what to do". What exactly did
)she mean??
"Joiedevivre": replied:
)Cross-dominance has nothing to do with Waldorf education; it is a
)concept drawn from traditional psychology. Children usually begin to
)preferentially use one hand to draw or write. They also begin to
)prefer one leg (for example to hop), one eye (check with a
)kaleidoscope or little telescope), one ear, and so on. Many children
)have all of the preferences on one side: right-handed, right-legged,
)right-eye preference, etc. Some children have mixed or
)cross-dominance, meaning that the preferences do not correspond. As
)far as I understand, in educational psychology this is an indication
)to check for possible dyslexia or learning difficulties.
Diana says:
Hello, lilylady.
I wouldn't worry for even a moment that your child has "learning
disabilities" unless he is diagnosed by a qualified professional. The
likelihood that the Waldorf teacher, his or her "mentor," or "Joy"
here is qualified to diagnose "learning disabilities" in your child
is slim - their training doesn't cover this - and I wouldn't waste
much time on "Joy's" understanding of cross-dominance either, if I
were you - unless Joy surprises us and announces that she is actually
a trained professional. (I don't think Joy's told us who she is or
what her background is, and based on her past contributions here, I'm
not holding my breath.)
In Waldorf these "diagnoses" and "curative" practices are based not
on science or on professional child development study, but on
esoteric religious theories and ancient superstitions about left-
handedness.
Some Waldorf schools still try to make left-handed children use the
right hand, and you're lucky to have removed your child as this may
well be what the teacher and her "mentor" had in mind for him.
Diana
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "lilylady868" lilylady868@yahoo.com lilylady868
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:33 pm ((PST))
Thank you, Kim and Joy for your responses. I welcome the feedback.
But Joy, Steiner very clearly had strong opinions on handedness,
saying it was a karmic issue, and that it should indeed be corrected.
He goes on to say that using both hands equally would lead to
laziness later in life, and that it was a "karmic weakness." I don't
know how to post a link here, or if it will work, but I googled
Steiner and left-handedness, and found an actual google book on line
"Faculty Meetings With Rudolph Steiner" and could read most of his
response, that is also posted in full on the PLANS site under FAQ.
All I can say is that my son was a new person the day we pulled him
out less than a week ago, and is literally skipping everywhere, and is
his usual shining, happy self.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:38 pm ((PST))
Joy:
)Cross-dominance has nothing to do with Waldorf education;
True, but they fuss over it in Waldorf sometimes because it's an excuse
to sniff out left-handed children, and possibly force them to use the
right hand. This is a long-since discredited and abusive practice, and
Waldorf parents should not be putting up with it.
According to anthroposophy, left handedness is a sign of karmic
weakness - it indicates your child may have been a manual laborer in a
past life.
Diana
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:51 pm ((PST))
lilylady wrote:
) But Joy, Steiner very clearly had strong opinions on handedness,
) saying it was a karmic issue, and that it should indeed be
corrected.
) He goes on to say that using both hands equally would lead to
) laziness later in life, and that it was a "karmic weakness." I
don't
) know how to post a link here, or if it will work, but I googled
) Steiner and left-handedness, and found an actual google book on line
) "Faculty Meetings With Rudolph Steiner" and could read most of his
) response, that is also posted in full on the PLANS site under FAQ.
We will shortly be hearing that because you read those comments on
PLANS' site, that probably means that PLANS fabricated this material.
So here for a Waldorf-approved source is "Bob and Nancy," who
maintain one of the oldest online sources of information on Waldorf
education. The page on the "Developing Child" at this web site will
confirm that the Steiner quotes condemning left-handedness are
accurate quotes, and that this superstition is still endorsed by
Waldorf educators today.
http://www.bobnancy.com/
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:53 pm ((PST))
)I googled Steiner and left-handedness, and found an actual google book
)on line "Faculty Meetings With Rudolph Steiner" and could read most of
)his response,
Oh, I see that you read the lecture for yourself, so hopefully the
Waldorf DOF's here ("defenders of the faith") will not bother wasting
our time with the usual denials.
Diana
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. AW: [wc] Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "Bruce Jackson" bruceylists@freenet.de bruceyj
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:39 pm ((PST))
I'll deny anything. once! By the way. Steiner spells his first name Rudolf,
whether the writer is left- or righthanded! I'm ambidextrous, which explains
a thing or two!
Keep on bashing!
Bruce
_____
Von: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von winters_diana
Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. November 2007 00:53
An: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [wc] Re: Advice Please?!
)I googled Steiner and left-handedness, and found an actual google book
)on line "Faculty Meetings With Rudolph Steiner" and could read most of
)his response,
Oh, I see that you read the lecture for yourself, so hopefully the
Waldorf DOF's here ("defenders of the faith") will not bother wasting
our time with the usual denials.
Diana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1j. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:08 pm ((PST))
Bruce:
)I'll deny anything. once!
What do you deny? That Steiner said left handedness was a karmic
weakness, or that Waldorf teachers sometimes still switch left handers?
lily wrote:
)I googled Steiner and left-handedness, and found an actual google book
)on line "Faculty Meetings With Rudolph Steiner" and could read most of
)his response,
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1k. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "Debra Snell" snell@gv.net debrasnell
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:15 pm ((PST))
On Nov 12, 2007, at 3:38 PM, winters_diana wrote:
) Joy:
)
) )Cross-dominance has nothing to do with Waldorf education;
)
) True, but they fuss over it in Waldorf sometimes because it's an
) excuse
) to sniff out left-handed children, and possibly force them to use the
) right hand. This is a long-since discredited and abusive practice, and
) Waldorf parents should not be putting up with it.
)
) According to anthroposophy, left handedness is a sign of karmic
) weakness - it indicates your child may have been a manual laborer in a
) past life.
)
) Diana
Debra:
Our son was diagnosed as "cross-dominant" in waldorf and I was
approached by his teacher with his "problem." The cure was to switch
him from writing with his left to his right hand. I said "Absolutely
not."
By this time in our relationship, the teacher was more than a bit
intimidated by me and backed off. That son is almost 20 years old now
and post Waldorf (pulled him out in 2nd grade), his teacher's were
always saying things like, "He would make a great engineer..."
Well, he's studying Arabic at University in the Middle East where his
major is International Politics.
So much for his Waldorf teacher's predictions of doom and gloom if we
didn't switch him.
I wouldn't worry much about what happened in the sessions much... My
other son was taught juggling because of his reading difficulty.
Direct training in Phonetics worked much better, it turned out.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1l. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan@dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:50 pm ((PST))
JOY:
) )Cross-dominance has nothing to do with Waldorf education;
DIANA:
)True, but they fuss over it in Waldorf sometimes because it's an excuse
)to sniff out left-handed children, and possibly force them to use the
)right hand. This is a long-since discredited and abusive practice, and
)Waldorf parents should not be putting up with it.
)
)According to anthroposophy, left handedness is a sign of karmic
)weakness - it indicates your child may have been a manual laborer in a
)past life.
Diana's right. There's a lot of talk about dominance at Waldorf
schools; it gives a scientific patina to their ridiculous theories.
Here's an article where Daniel Hindes tries to spin Steiner to make
him seem compatible with modern developmental science. He has to try
rather hard, given how clear Steiner was about the supposed need to
switch left-handed children.
http://www.waldorflibrary.org/Journal_Articles/lefthandedchildren.pdf
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1m. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "Walden" awaldenpond@shaw.ca awaldenpond
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:04 am ((PST))
Bruce wrote:
)I'll deny anything. once!
And ignore many things. always
)By the way. Steiner spells his first name Rudolf, whether the writer is left- or righthanded! I'm ambidextrous, which explains
)a thing or two!
Do Steiner's "indications" explain a thing or two about the link between His ambidextrous followers and obfuscation?
)Keep on bashing!
Please consider NOT keeping on ignoring the issue(s). Try this helpful Mantra: OnTopicOnTopicOnTopic . . . .
-Walden
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
1n. AW: [wc] Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "Bruce Jackson" bruceylists@freenet.de bruceyj
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:38 am ((PST))
I was taking the bait. see the post to which I responded!
I teach math(s) in the upper-school and have no idea whether our
lower/middle-school teachers try to switch handedness. I'll ask them and
respond when I have some data!
Bruce
PS I'm sorry about my formatting, but for the majority of the Emails I
respond to, this format is better!
_____
Von: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von winters_diana
Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. November 2007 03:09
An: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [wc] Re: Advice Please?!
Bruce:
)I'll deny anything. once!
What do you deny? That Steiner said left handedness was a karmic
weakness, or that Waldorf teachers sometimes still switch left handers?
lily wrote:
)I googled Steiner and left-handedness, and found an actual google book
)on line "Faculty Meetings With Rudolph Steiner" and could read most of
)his response,
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: New Enclyclopedia of Unbelief
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan@dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:49 am ((PST))
Diana, you wrote,
) ) I've received my complimentary copy of The New Encyclopedia of
)) Unbelief, Edited by Tom Flynn, Foreword by Richard Dawkins. My
)) article "Anthroposophy" starts on page 74.
)
)) (http://www.amazon.com/New-Encyclopedia-Unbelief-Richard-
)Dawkins/dp/1591023912/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-9348633-9993444?
)ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194318183&sr=1-2)
)
)Congratulations, Dan. Can you quote from it for us?
I can do better than that, I have permission to put the whole article
up on the PLANS web site. Soon.
-Dan
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3. Illiterate doesn't mean ignorant?
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan@dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:18 pm ((PST))
From The Sunday Times
November 11, 2007
(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article2846872.ece)
Illiterate doesn't mean ignorant
Chris Woodhead
)My nine-year-old grandson has attended a Rudolph Steiner school for
)five years. He cannot read, write or do sums, has poor verbal skills
)and calls himself "stupid". I think the school has failed him. How
)and what kind of educational assessment should my daughter now
)arrange for her son? I fear for his future.
)Name withheld
Steiner schools believe that "the whole development of the child" is
more important than academic progress. Formal learning begins when
the child is ready and takes place in "a very creative and artistic
environment".
I doubt your illiterate and innumerate grandson is stupid. But if you
need reassurance, contact an educational psychologist who will assess
basic intelligence and literary and numeracy skills.
Messages in this topic (1)
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There are 2 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Advice Please?!
From: winters_diana
2. Biodynamic Wine Country
From: tmasthenes13
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Advice Please?!
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:54 am ((PST))
Bruce:
)I teach math(s) in the upper-school and have no idea whether our
)lower/middle-school teachers try to switch handedness. I'll ask them
)and respond when I have some data!
Sure - you'll respond when you have some data, or when pigs fly,
whichever comes first.
Newcomers here should understand that Bruce has been on and off this
list and multiple other Steiner/Waldorf-related mailing lists for at
least a decade. Bruce has heard the discussion of Steiner schools
switching left-handers a dozen times if he's heard it once. This is a
typical reply from Steiner defenders - they've never heard of such a
thing before, they don't think it happens in their school, perhaps the
parent misunderstood? it sounds very strange and can't be
widespread . . . sometimes they'll "ask around and get back to us."
Bruce, if I'm not mistaken, you teach in Berlin? Please don't even
think about coming back here and telling me teachers at your school
have never heard of this, because just letting you know, there is no
way I am going to believe that.
I'd love, on the other hand, to hear that it's been discussed some tim
in the past, say, 5 years, and the practice has been discontinued.
Diana
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. Biodynamic Wine Country
Posted by: "tmasthenes13" TomBuoyed@aol.com tmasthenes13
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:09 am ((PST))
Ladies and genteelmen of the esteemed Waldorf Critics List!
Both Bunkers and Debunkers alike!
May I interrupt your solemn and sober debate about the karma of
left-handedness to propose a refreshing pralaya*** whereby you all
might be able to partake of some biodynamic wine and thus practice the
spiritual discipline of desobriety (I mean, the discipline of
spiritual desobriety.)
*** pralaya is a word in Classical Anthroposophese that means "pause,
break, recess, hiatus"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In the efforts of "full disclosure," I must add the following legal
warning before we may proceed with the proposed pralaya
LEGAL WARNING: Rudolf Steiner declared that the effects of alcohol on
the human being are to create "counter-forces of the ego" which
displace the normal ego forces of every day consciousness. Because of
the reality of human freedom, the Vorstand at the Goetheanum therefore
cannot not be held legally liable for any displacement of any ego
forces in any human being who consumes biodynamic wine up to and
including the third future lifetime of the aforementioned human being.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You may be able to debunk left-handedness as karmic weakness, but you
cannot --- absolutely cannot --- debunk the reality of Biodynamic wine.
--------------------------------------------
Why?
De gustibus non est disputandem.
=====================================
I offer you here the transcript of a local news story on a Biodynamic
winery in Santa Cruz , CA from WREX, the NBC-TV affiliate in Rockford. IL.
You can click on the video and watch the report. (Good thing I did so
because I discovered that the hapless intern at the station who
transcribed the audio mistakenly wrote down the word "anecdote"
instead of "antidote.")
=======================================================
http://www.wrex.com/News/index.php?ID=23428
Bio Wine
One of the newest trends in the world of winemaking isn't red or
white, but green.
A small but growing number of winemakers are going "biodynamic."
They refuse to use pesticides to help grow their grapes.
"We're not permitted to use any synthetic sprays, chemical additives
or pesticides," said Randall Grahm of Bonny Doon Winery in Santa Cruz.
Instead, the vines rely solely on nutrients from the soil.
The vines are 100 percent natural and produce what the winemaker said
were "purer grapes."
"People want products that are more benign," Grahm said. "I mean the
world is getting more dangerous, more toxic so I think you really need
to consume products that are absolutely, positively healthy."
There are only about 30 wineries in the United States that are
biodynamically certified.
Biodynamics continues even after the harvest.
The grapes ferment in their own yeast.
Instead of using sulfates, Grahm said the wine is aerated in a
contraption called a flow form.
The result is a more robust wine.
Grahm said because his wine is untainted it lasts about a week longer
than most bottles after it has been opened.
"That to me is an indication of life force within the wine itself."
The winemaker said his wine is like having both the poison and the
anecdote (sic) [antidote] in the same bottle.
The alcohol is the poison, but all the healthy minerals keep people
from feeling hungover the next day.
Graham said wine that is good for the mind, the body and Mother Earth
is something everyone can drink to.
Boony Doon also uses screwcaps instead of corks.
Grahm said the screwcaps make a tighter seal, so they can use fewer
preservatives.
============================================
Furthermore, remember that such bunking and debunking has nothing to
do with one's beliefs or disbeliefs, as evidenced by this reply from
Mr. W. C. Fields when asked by a reporter about his particular
religious beliefs: "What do I believe, you ask me, my good man? I
believe I'll have another drink."
Prosit! Slainte!
Tom
Messages in this topic (1)
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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Giving Bruce a hand
From: Peter Staudenmaier
1.2. AW: [wc] Giving Bruce a hand
From: Bruce Jackson
1.3. Re: Giving Bruce a hand
From: Peter Staudenmaier
1.4. AW: [wc] Giving Bruce a hand
From: Bruce Jackson
1.5. Re: AW: [wc] Giving Bruce a hand
From: Peter Staudenmaier
1.6. Re: AW: [wc] Giving Bruce a hand
From: Walden
1.7. Re: Giving Bruce a hand
From: winters_diana
1.8. Re: Giving Bruce a hand
From: winters_diana
1.9. Re: Giving Bruce a hand
From: winters_diana
2.1. AW: [wc] Re: Advice Please?!
From: Bruce Jackson
2.2. Re: Advice Please?!
From: winters_diana
2.3. Re: Advice Please?!
From: zooey_stockholm
2.4. Re: Advice Please?!
From: zooey_stockholm
2.5. Re: Advice Please?!
From: lilylady868
2.6. AW: [wc] Re: Advice Please?!
From: Bruce Jackson
2.7. Re: Advice Please?!
From: lilylady868
2.8. Re: Advice Please?!
From: zooey_stockholm
2.9. Re: Advice Please?!
From: lilylady868
2.10. Re: Advice Please?!
From: zooey_stockholm
2.11. Re: AW: [wc] Re: Advice Please?!
From: Dan Dugan
2.12. Re: Advice Please?!
From: winters_diana
2.13. Re: Advice Please?!
From: winters_diana
2.14. Re: Advice Please?!
From: winters_diana
2.15. Re: Advice Please?!
From: winters_diana
3a. Re: New Enclyclopedia of Unbelief
From: zooey_stockholm
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Giving Bruce a hand
Posted by: "Peter Staudenmaier" pstaud@hotmail.com pstauden
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:46 am ((PST))
In the Waldorf world, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Bruce writes:
) I teach math(s) in the upper-school and have no idea whether our
) lower/middle-school teachers try to switch handedness.
You have no idea? Why not?
To give Bruce a hand with this, here are a couple of easy to find works by Steiner that discuss proper protocols for handedness. These are all from Rudolf Steiner, Konferenzen mit den Lehrern der Freien Waldorfschule in Stuttgart; I believe the entire series is available in English under the title Diana cited, Faculty Meetings with Rudolf Steiner. Since Bruce is in Germany, I'll give the German editions with page numbers, as well as the date of each conference.
Konferenzen vol. 2 p. 92 (conference of May 10, 1922; on handedness in conjunction with temperament)
Konferenzen vol. 3 p. 58 (conference of May 25, 1923; on left-handedness as a "karmic weakness")
Konferenzen vol. 3 pp. 109-110 (conference of December 18, 1923; a teacher tells Steiner that a certain pupil in the 7th grade writes better with her left hand than with her right, and Steiner responds that the pupil must be told she may only write with her right hand)
I also recommend Bruce take a quick peek at Rudolf Steiner, Die Erneuerung der pdagogisch-didaktischen Kunst durch Geisteswissenschaft, pp. 199-200.
Greetings,
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Climb to the top of the charts!Ę Play Star Shuffle:Ę the word scramble challenge with star power.
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Messages in this topic (39)
________________________________________________________________________
1.2. AW: [wc] Giving Bruce a hand
Posted by: "Bruce Jackson" bruceylists@freenet.de bruceyj
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:47 am ((PST))
Do YOU know whether the lower school teachers in Berlin-Mitte try to change
handedness, Peter? If not why not? Probably for the same reason that I
donât! Are you always so arrogant (sorry Dan, but I find such remarks from
Peter unhelpful, especially as he omitted to quote the sentence directly
following the one he did!)
Bruce
_____
Von: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Peter Staudenmaier
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. November 2007 16:45
An: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [wc] Giving Bruce a hand
In the Waldorf world, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is
doing. Bruce writes:
) I teach math(s) in the upper-school and have no idea whether our
) lower/middle-school teachers try to switch handedness.
You have no idea? Why not?
To give Bruce a hand with this, here are a couple of easy to find works by
Steiner that discuss proper protocols for handedness. These are all from
Rudolf Steiner, Konferenzen mit den Lehrern der Freien Waldorfschule in
Stuttgart; I believe the entire series is available in English under the
title Diana cited, Faculty Meetings with Rudolf Steiner. Since Bruce is in
Germany, I'll give the German editions with page numbers, as well as the
date of each conference.
Konferenzen vol. 2 p. 92 (conference of May 10, 1922; on handedness in
conjunction with temperament)
Konferenzen vol. 3 p. 58 (conference of May 25, 1923; on left-handedness as
a "karmic weakness")
Konferenzen vol. 3 pp. 109-110 (conference of December 18, 1923; a teacher
tells Steiner that a certain pupil in the 7th grade writes better with her
left hand than with her right, and Steiner responds that the pupil must be
told she may only write with her right hand)
I also recommend Bruce take a quick peek at Rudolf Steiner, Die Erneuerung
der pdagogisch-didaktischen Kunst durch Geisteswissenschaft, pp. 199-200.
Greetings,
Peter S.
__________________________________________________________
Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble
challenge with star power.
http://club.
(http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct)
live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (39)
________________________________________________________________________
1.3. Re: Giving Bruce a hand
Posted by: "Peter Staudenmaier" pstaud@hotmail.com pstauden
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:41 am ((PST))
Hi Bruce,
) But a word to Diana: try reading my posts before you call anything that I
) write absurd. I have asserted NOTHING except that I do not know whether the
) issue is relevant in Mitte. Until I ask I won't know.
Um, Bruce? That's why she called it absurd. You sure you're paying attention here? You stated flatly that you "have no idea", in your own words, whether your colleagues engage in a standard Waldorf practice, one established by Steiner himself at the founding of Waldorf pedagogy. Your response was, as Diana noted, absurd. Do you have no idea whether your colleagues sort pupils into four temperaments? Do you have no idea whether there are pictures of Rudolf Steiner in your school? Do you have no idea whether the pupils recite morning verse? In those cases, do you claim that until you ask, you won't know? If so, why? Do you not know whether pigs fly until you as