return to WCA Archive Index
There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: Margaret Sachs
1b. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: donwollie
1c. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: Roger Rawlings
1d. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: donwollie
1e. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: Roger Rawlings
1f. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: Roger Rawlings
2a. Re: material and spiritual
From: winters_diana
2b. Re: material and spiritual
From: winters_diana
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004 yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:44 am ((PDT))
Don, here's my last post on the science issue. I just
found a Waldorf Critics post from Roger Rawlings on
March 18, 2007, that I'm pasting below.
Oh, just one other thing: did you know that
Anthroposophists don't want your young children to use
computers because they believe a demon named Ahriman
lives in computers!
Best,
Margaret
Roger Rawlings wrote:
In my posting ăOh My Stars,ä I discussed
Anthroposophist Hermann von
Baravalleâs remarkable approach to astronomy. This
raises the larger
question of how science in general is taught at
Waldorf schools. At the
risk of repeating a few points I have made elsewhere,
let me offer the
following evaluation. Iâll draw both on my own
experiences and the
words
of Rudolf Steiner.
At my Waldorf, biology and physiology were taught by
the headmaster, J.
F. Gardner, who had no academic credentials in either
subject. ăEarth
scienceä was taught by H. Karl, who was actually the
schoolâs German
teacher. Physics and chemistry were taught by A.
Tomlinson, who
encouraged his students to read such books as Anthony
Standonâs SCIENCE
IS A SACRED COW (New York: E. P. Dutton & Co., 1950)
and Bernard
Heuvelmansâ ON THE TRACK OF UNKNOWN ANIMALS (New York:
Hill and Wang,
1959); the former tries to debunk science, while the
latter chastises
scientists for not believing anecdotal accounts of the
existence of ape
men and other fabulous beasts.
Steiner called Anthroposophy ăspiritual science,ä but
in fact his
religion is essentially antiscientific, attributing
everything in the
universe to supersensible spiritual agencies than
cannot be measured or
recorded, while dismissing physical phenomena as
having virtually no
intrinsic value or meaning. Ponder, for instance,
Steinerâs comments
about the physical phenomenon of gravity. Steiner
thought gravity
meaningless precisely because it is in and of the
physical realm: ăIt
would be wonderful if you could stop speaking about
gravity. You can
certainly achieve speaking of it only as a phenomenon.
The best would
be
if you considered gravity only as a word.ä[Rudolf
Steiner, FACULTY
MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER (Hudson, NY:
Anthroposophic Press, 1998),
p. 29.] Steiner said that the planets donât orbit the
Sun, so in this
sense he could discount gravity. But any true course
in astronomy or
physics must deal with gravity as very much more than
ăonly a word.ä
Notably, Steiner often explicitly set himself up in
opposition to
science. ă[T]he heart is indeed a sense organ for
perceiving the
bloodâs
movement, not a pump as physicists claim....ä [AT HOME
IN THE UNIVERSE:
EXPLORING OUR SUPRASENSORY NATURE, (Steiner Books,
2000), p. 84.]
Physicists, and medical knowledge, and orbital
mechanics, and
gravity÷Steiner threw them all out the window. In
there place he
substituted myths and mysticism (see his belief in
Atlantis, goblins,
Ahriman, etc.)
For my classmates and me, Anthroposophyâs devotion to
pseudo-information
meant that the line between verifiable truth and
woolly speculation was
blurred. Our schoolâs small library found space in its
scanty
collection
for books on flying saucers, dragons, yetis, and other
undocumented
phenomena, generally presented as if they were not
merely plausible but
almost certainly true. To my young mind÷and presumably
the minds of
other students÷such books were persuasive. And for at
least some of us,
they reinforced the effect created by all the myths we
heard and
studied
in class: We were led farther and farther from a
rational appreciation
of reality.
Steiner had a scientific background, which makes his
attitude toward
the
true, physical sciences all the more inexcusable.
Besides claiming that
the earth does not orbit the sun, he made such
astounding assertions as
that islands are not attached to the ocean floor but
instead float.
These claims are so demonstrably false, they call into
question the
entire body of Steinerâs teachings. If his clairvoyant
wisdom led him
into blunders such as these, what other even more
fundamental errors
infect his doctrines? The only real question remaining
is whether one
thinks Steinerâs house of cards is tottering or has
already collapsed.
Postscript: Many people seem to find real life
insufficient; they feel
a
hollowness at the core of existence. I was one of this
number for many
years. I wished life were more magical. Such a desire
can lead one to
embrace mythologic belief systems such as
Anthroposophy. But opening
oneâs eyes can have a wonderfully therapeutic effect.
Anyone who has
even a laymanâs grasp of Einsteinian physics and
quantum mechanics, and
read Diane Ackerman and Carl Sagan and Jane Goodall
and Stephen Hawking
and Stephen Jay Gould, and looked at photos from the
Hubble Space
Telescope, understands that reality is amazingly rich
and marvelous.
Thereâs no need to invent alternate universes, as
Steiner did. The real
universe, revealed by science, is more than wonderful
enough.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "donwollie" donwollie yahoo.com donwollie
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:10 am ((PDT))
Margaret,
I had never even heard of Ahriman until yesterday. Whew!
I let a lot of this go for two years because I was emotionally worn
out after the custody fight and I hadn't seen my sons much in the
prior year, before the judge stepped in and increased my visitation
from one night every other week to roughly half.
I also had a reflexive anti-Steiner bias since the TV and computer ban
had contributed greatly to my ex's desire to limit my time with them,
and to control what we did when together. Plus, Steiner is very hard
to read for me. Maybe it's the way he writes, maybe the time period,
and probably it's the fact that my mind isn't inclined to think about,
or value, many of the things that Steiner considers important. I've
always found it hard to keep my mind focused when I read Steiner
(similar to when I read Proust's Swann's Way in college.
Anyway, now that I'm motivated, and with the help of you, Roger and
Dan's site, I'm going to force myself to learn as much as I can about
Steiner and anthroposophy.
Thanks again. I may be out of touch with the internet for a few days.
I'm sure I'll have more thoughts and questions in a few days.
Best,
Don
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Margaret Sachs
(powerofjoy2004 ...) wrote:
)
) Don, here's my last post on the science issue. I just
) found a Waldorf Critics post from Roger Rawlings on
) March 18, 2007, that I'm pasting below.
)
) Oh, just one other thing: did you know that
) Anthroposophists don't want your young children to use
) computers because they believe a demon named Ahriman
) lives in computers!
)
) Best,
) Margaret
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:48 am ((PDT))
Margaret has done a wondeful job filling you in. Most of what I have to say is on my Web
site, so I won't repeat it here. But just a few quick points:
1) Steiner very frequently dismissed science. He claimed that his system, Anthroposophy,
was "spiritual science," but this was b.s. No scientfic method in his work. Rather, he relied
on what he claimed was his clairvoyance.
2) Waldorfs differ from one another to some extent. There was no sense of "community" as
far as I can recall at my school. Our headmaster inspired fear, not loyalty÷at least, so I've
been told by several of my old schoolmates. I was perhaps less afraid than other kids,
since my mom was his secretary. Still, the general atmosphere in the school was one of
walking on eggshells.
3) Partially for the reasons I've just given, there was little humor at the school.
Anthroposophists are generally extremely serious about their covert religion. What's to
laugh at?
4) Steiner was very clear that the purpose of Waldorf education was spiritual, not
academic: "Among the faculty, we must certainly carry within us the knowledge that we
are not here for our own sakes, but to carry out the divine cosmic plan. We should always
remember that when we do something, we are actually carrying out the intentions of the
gods, that we are, in a certain sense, the means by which that streaming down from above
will go out into the world." Also: "The question of final examinations is purely a question
of opportunity. It is a question of whether we dare tell those who come to us that we will
not prepare them for the final examination at all, that it is a private decision of the student
whether to take the final examination or not."
5) Steiner and his followers generally do not dare to tell such truths. In general, Waldorfs
are dens of deceit. That's why some of us have spent so much timing pealing back the
layers, finding the hidden truths (if "truth" can be referred to in the Waldorf context).
--Roger
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "donwollie" donwollie yahoo.com donwollie
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:57 am ((PDT))
Roger,
Where can I find the quote in point 4 regarding the cosmic plan?
Thank you again so much and I completely agree that Margaret has done
a wonderful job. I don't have the words to fully express my thanks to
both of you.
I'll be out of touch for a day or two. Have a great weekewnd.
Don
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "Roger Rawlings"
(downfromfog ...) wrote:
)
) Margaret has done a wondeful job filling you in. Most of what I have
to say is on my Web
) site, so I won't repeat it here. But just a few quick points:
)
) 1) Steiner very frequently dismissed science. He claimed that his
system, Anthroposophy,
) was "spiritual science," but this was b.s. No scientfic method in
his work. Rather, he relied
) on what he claimed was his clairvoyance.
)
) 2) Waldorfs differ from one another to some extent. There was no
sense of "community" as
) far as I can recall at my school. Our headmaster inspired fear, not
loyalty÷at least, so I've
) been told by several of my old schoolmates. I was perhaps less
afraid than other kids,
) since my mom was his secretary. Still, the general atmosphere in the
school was one of
) walking on eggshells.
)
) 3) Partially for the reasons I've just given, there was little humor
at the school.
) Anthroposophists are generally extremely serious about their covert
religion. What's to
) laugh at?
)
) 4) Steiner was very clear that the purpose of Waldorf education was
spiritual, not
) academic: "Among the faculty, we must certainly carry within us the
knowledge that we
) are not here for our own sakes, but to carry out the divine cosmic
plan. We should always
) remember that when we do something, we are actually carrying out the
intentions of the
) gods, that we are, in a certain sense, the means by which that
streaming down from above
) will go out into the world." Also: "The question of final
examinations is purely a question
) of opportunity. It is a question of whether we dare tell those who
come to us that we will
) not prepare them for the final examination at all, that it is a
private decision of the student
) whether to take the final examination or not."
)
) 5) Steiner and his followers generally do not dare to tell such
truths. In general, Waldorfs
) are dens of deceit. That's why some of us have spent so much timing
pealing back the
) layers, finding the hidden truths (if "truth" can be referred to in
the Waldorf context).
)
) --Roger
)
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:17 am ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "donwollie" (donwollie ...) wrote:
)
) Roger,
)
) Where can I find the quote in point 4 regarding the cosmic plan?
I apologize that my memoir is so long. But you'll find almost everything I know or think in
that gargantuan document. The damned thing has almost 100 footnotes. Here's the quote
and the footnote.
"Among the faculty, we must certainly carry within us the knowledge that we are not here
for our own sakes, but to carry out the divine cosmic plan. We should always remember
that when we do something, we are actually carrying out the intentions of the gods, that
we are, in a certain sense, the means by which that streaming down from above will go out
into the world."[21]
[21] FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, (Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press,
1998, Volumes 1 & 2), p. 55.
On the matter of "gods": Steiner taught that the beings of the spiritual realm are arranged
in various hierarchies. Some high-ranking beings may be referred to as gods, although the
Godhead of the Holy Trinity stands highest. [See Rudolf Steiner, THE SPIRITUAL
HIERARCHIES AND THE PHYSICAL WORLD: REALITY AND ILLUSION (Hudson, NY:
Anthroposophic Press, 1996.)]
--Yrs trly, RR
P.S. here's a snippted from my site:
ADVICE FOR PARENTS
Waldorf schools (sometimes called Steiner schools) generally claim to be nonsectarian. In
fact, they are religious institutions operated in accordance with the tenets of
Anthroposophy, a gnostic semi-Christian religion founded by the mystic Rudolf Steiner.
If you consider a Waldorf school for your child, first read a couple of books by Steiner. See
if your view of the world coincides with his. Perhaps the best choice is the two-volume set
FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER (Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1998). In
it, you will find Steiner's instructions to the teachers at the first Waldorf school÷you will
learn, in Steiner's own words, what Steiner intended for Waldorf students.
If after reading Steiner you still have an interest in Waldorf, visit the particular school you
are considering and ask searching questions. Do the children recite a morning prayer or
"verse"? Ask for the precise words. What sorts of books are in (or banned from) the library?
Go into the library and look around. Are science courses taught straight, or with an anti-
scientific bent? Ask what role mythology plays in the curriculum. Ask who Rudolf Steiner
was. Ask for his views on evolution. Ask about clairvoyance (Steiner claimed to be
clairvoyant÷and he taught that "organs of clairvoyance" grow inside people). Ask about
the purpose of eurythmy (Steiner said this form of dance connects people directly to the
spirit realm). Pass around copies of Steiner quotations that raise questions for you, then
ask those questions.
Try to learn how deeply committed the school is to Steiner's doctrines. Not all Waldorfs are
alike. Some may distance themselves from Steiner's racism, for instance. The problem,
however, is that Steiner's entire system is built on his clairvoyant, mystical
"insights" (which include his racist "insights"). A Waldorf school cannot wholly rid itself of
mysticism unless it wholly renounces Steiner÷in which case it ceases to be a real Waldorf
school. Halfway measures may be possible÷affirming some of Steiner's mystical teachings
while rejecting others÷but mysticism would necessarily remain entrenched in the
curriculum, while some of the "truths" that gave that mysticism its justification would be
absent. The resulting pedagogy, tacking among an expurgated set of Steiner's teachings,
would inevitably lose much of its coherence and rationale.
Jewish parents may want to take special precautions. Think carefully about Steiner's
racism, the emphasis he placed on Jesus, and the evidently anti-Semitic comments he
made, such as the following: "The Jews have a great gift for materialism, but little for
recognition of the spiritual world." You also may want to investigate the debate over
possible ties between some Anthroposophists and Nazis.
All parents of all backgrounds who consider Waldorf schools for their children should
press persistently for honest answers about the schools' policies and underlying theology.
If you mistrust any answers you receive, send your kids elsewhere. Their lives are in your
hands.
÷
For a detailed discussion of Steiner's teachings and the nature of Waldorf education, click
on "unenlightened" or "shebang." For a selection of revealing statements made by Steiner,
click on "quotations." I have included several statements from FACULTY MEETINGS WITH
RUDOLF STEINER. -- Roger Rawlings
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:28 am ((PDT))
Margaret:
You have written bravely and beautifully to aid more than one parent. Suggestion: Pull these
postings together as a single essay (Margaret's Truths, or whatever). If Dan agrees, it should
be posted on the PLANS site as advice for all current or potential Waldorf parents. Alternative:
I will gladly post whatever you write on my site, and Dan can link to it. (The reason I have my
own site is so that I can edit and revise at will, without driving Dan crazy. You would have
complete freedom to make unending revisions at my site, if you so desire.)
--Farmstead Re Grin
(Margaret's friend. 66667 found.)
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: material and spiritual
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT))
Dan:
)I just discovered that a June 15 message from Peter S. had been
)sidetracked by Yahoo as suspected spam. Sorry, I didn't know to look
)for that.
Actually, this post did appear at the time, but I'm glad you re-
posted it because it gives me a chance to reply to it, as I guess I
meant to do at the time and got sidetracked by anagrams :)
Peter and Keith had an interesting discussion about the distinction
between "materialists" and "spiritualists" and its possible relevance
in why people criticize anthroposophy.
Keith invoked a very simplistic distinction as follows:
)It's not a waste of time from an esoteric point of view. Esotericists
)all believe there is a non-physical element to reality or to our
)world.
and Peter pointed out the obvious, with much less scorn than I would
have probably expressed:
)But so do non-esotericists. In fact virtually everyone believes
)this. (snip) This sort of dualism -- everything must be either
)material or spiritual -- is woefully inadequate for understanding
)the complexity and variety of experience.
I just wanted to point out that in these discussions there isn't
usually a lot of interest on the part of esotericists in considering
or discussing the actual meanings of these terms. They're used as
insider lingo, essentially, and/or as epithets to deride perceived
enemies. Calling someone a "materialist" is an insult, in other
words, if you're an esotericist. Calling someone a materialist means
you're not one of us, you're not a good person, we don't have to
listen to you or like you, we've got a solid reason why nothing you
say will ever mean anything to us.
I think that's really the point to take home when anthroposophists
dismiss any criticism of their ideas or their movement as coming
from "materialists."
The points about (as Peter said) the "fundamental elitism" of the
spiritualist outlook are interesting, too. Keith wrote a bunch of
stuff about how a "materialist" viewpoint is limited because you're
stuck with what you can either perceive with the senses or reason
about with the intellect, both of which are supposedly quite limited
and inferior compared with the supposedly superior perceptive powers
or advanced abilities such as "clairvoyance." It's actually quite
amazing that they don't notice this is elitist and hierarchical,
especially someone like Keith who continually expresses bitterness
about various social injustices. Yep - we're stuck with those darn
five senses and those darn intellectual reasoning powers if we aren't
gifted with "special powers" like anthroposophists think they have.
But the beauty of it is that (barring disabilities) all or most of us
possess these abilities and can use them, and don't need the training
or permission of secret societies or elite religious sects to do so.
Diana
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: material and spiritual
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:40 am ((PDT))
)The "highly conditional" aspects of common reasoning are obviously
)much more modest than the "highly conditional" aspects of esoteric
)approaches.
This led to an interesting discussion but was actually originally a
mix-up, I think. Walden originally wrote something along the lines
that it was "demonstrably inaccurate" that everyone criticizing
Waldorf or anthroposophy was a "materialist." (which was where the
discussion started, as usual, with an esotericist, in this case Keith
or maybe it was Frank, asserting monotonously that it was just all
those damn materialists criticizing their beautiful spiritual
movement.) Walden pointed out that it is certainly not
only "materialists," even right here on this list most people are
not "materialists" no matter how starkly and stupidly you define the
term. (I happen apparently to fall into the dreaded "materialist"
category myself, at least if it's defined in the juvenile way Frank
and Keith apparently understand it; but the fact is most critics
don't.)
But the point that Peter and Keith then pursued is interesting. If
reasoning is "highly conditional," darn sure things
like "clairvoyance" are highly conditional, and even less likely to
be reliable sources of knowledge, and certainly far less likely to
facilitate equitable social structures - just the reverse, they're an
invitation to autocrats and madmen to claim the right to a following
on the basis of pronouncements with no observable basis in reality
and no attachment to humane values or morals at all.
I'd think this would be obviously the case even to those who do
believe in something like clairvoyance.
Peter:
)This line of argument leads directly away from your goal, it seems
)to me. There is nothing wrong with adopting an esoteric framework
)and promoting its worthiness to others, but it makes no sense to
)claim demonstrability, accuracy, and factuality on behalf of such a
)framework, unless you are willing to abide by the standards of
)reasoning and evidence for purposes of such a discussion. (While
)we're at it, I think this is one of several points where the
)fundamental elitism of esoteric approaches reveals itself, a
)consideration that might be worth pursuing eventually.)
Just kept all that in in order to say "Yeah that" :)
Diana
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
This message is from the new list on Yahoo.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
(*) To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/
(*) Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
(*) To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
(*) To change settings via email:
mailto:waldorf-critics-normal yahoogroups.com
mailto:waldorf-critics-fullfeatured yahoogroups.com
(*) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
waldorf-critics-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com
(*) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are 24 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Seriously
From: Peter Staudenmaier
1b. Re: Seriously
From: Peter Staudenmaier
1c. Re: Seriously
From: Roger Rawlings
1d. Re: Seriously
From: winters_diana
2.1. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: winters_diana
2.2. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: winters_diana
2.3. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: winters_diana
2.4. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: winters_diana
2.5. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: winters_diana
2.6. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: winters_diana
2.7. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: winters_diana
2.8. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: Roger Rawlings
2.9. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: Roger Rawlings
2.10. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: Roger Rawlings
2.11. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: winters_diana
2.12. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: winters_diana
2.13. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: winters_diana
2.14. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: Margaret Sachs
3a. Re: Rain Redux
From: winters_diana
3b. Re: Rain Redux
From: Roger Rawlings
3c. Re: Rain Redux
From: winters_diana
3d. Re: Rain Redux
From: Roger Rawlings
3e. Re: Rain Redux
From: Dan Dugan
4a. Re: material and spiritual
From: Roger Rawlings
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Seriously
Posted by: "Peter Staudenmaier" pstaud hotmail.com pstauden
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 2:26 am ((PDT))
Hi Roger,
)Dan is gonna kick us all off the list unless someone say something sensible
)pretty soon.
)
)Pete? Walden? Sharon? Peter?
I've been away from Berlin for a while (at an archive in Koblenz this past
week) and without consistent internet access. In a few days I'll head to
Rome again for one more visit to the archive there, then at the end of the
month I move back to the US. So I may not be much use for the rest of the
summer. And then teaching begins.... I'll do my best to keep up on
discussions where I have something useful to add. And one of these days I'll
try to give a quick summary of the stuff I've found in my archival research
this past year -- lots of material on German anthroposophy during the Nazi
era, and some on Italian anthroposophy during the Fascist era.
Speaking of anthroposophy's history, a quick plug for a friend and
colleague: Helmut Zander's two-volume history of anthroposophy in Germany
has finally appeared, just published a couple weeks ago. For anyone who
reads even a little German, I can't recommend it highly enough. It is nearly
2000 pages long (and ungodly expensive; try to get a library near you to
order it), with extremely thorough accounts of Steiner's intellectual
development and practical endeavors, the growth of anthroposophy as
worldview and as movement, and so forth. The book contains an enormous
amount of information about Waldorf as well. One of my criticisms is that
the sections on the Nazi period are somewhat cursory; in fact his treatment
of other German theosophical organizations in the Third Reich is more
thorough than the account of anthroposophy as such during that era. But that
leaves lots of room for my dissertation, I suppose. In any case, it's not to
be missed for anybody who can make use of it for a historical examination of
anthroposophy as a whole: Helmut Zander, Anthroposophie in Deutschland
(Verlag Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht 2007).
I have a few thoughts on the questions you raised in this post, I'll try to
get back to it soon. Greetings,
Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more!
http://mobile.msn.com
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Seriously
Posted by: "Peter Staudenmaier" pstaud hotmail.com pstauden
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 2:42 am ((PDT))
Hi again Roger,
)1) Ken Chennault (CEO Amer. Expres.) is often held up as an exemplar of
)Waldorf
)pedagogy. He is black (which I say with the highest respect), yet he passed
)through a
)system we critics say is racist, and he thrived.
I'm not sure Chennault is the best example, but the question is an important
one. Personally, I think ending up as the CEO of a corporation like American
Express isn't something to be proud of (ashamed of, maybe, or just a waste
of talent), and it always puzzles me a bit that Waldorf advocates don't seem
to have thought about that at all. In any case, it might be worth keeping
other examples in mind; W.E.B Dubois passed through a thoroughly racist
educational system and went on to become one of the foremost public critics
of his time. For what it's worth, though, I don't think my own criticism of
the Waldorf system is that it "is racist"; I think that varies greatly from
case to case. What is unsettling about the present Waldorf movement overall
is the remarkable unwillingness to deal straightforwardly with the racist
components of anthroposophy. Greetings,
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Seriously
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:28 am ((PDT))
Good points. I wrote of Ken because he and I were schoolmates and because Waldorfers
make such a fuss about his "success." Personally, I never had the slightist notion that
running a credit card company would be a desirable goal. (What does the Bible say about
money lenders?) But I do not question Ken's intelligence or integrity. I have two old friends
who work in PR firms and one new friend who owns a large insurance company. I'd rather
die (and as a materialist, what I mean is that when my body gives out, I will be gone÷done
÷dead÷zero). But it takes all kinds. An I'm foolish enough to like my friends.
--Roger
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud ...) wrote:
)
)
)
) Hi again Roger,
)
)
)
) )1) Ken Chennault (CEO Amer. Expres.) is often held up as an exemplar of
) )Waldorf
) )pedagogy. He is black (which I say with the highest respect), yet he passed
) )through a
) )system we critics say is racist, and he thrived.
)
)
) I'm not sure Chennault is the best example, but the question is an important
) one. Personally, I think ending up as the CEO of a corporation like American
) Express isn't something to be proud of (ashamed of, maybe, or just a waste
) of talent), and it always puzzles me a bit that Waldorf advocates don't seem
) to have thought about that at all. In any case, it might be worth keeping
) other examples in mind; W.E.B Dubois passed through a thoroughly racist
) educational system and went on to become one of the foremost public critics
) of his time. For what it's worth, though, I don't think my own criticism of
) the Waldorf system is that it "is racist"; I think that varies greatly from
) case to case. What is unsettling about the present Waldorf movement overall
) is the remarkable unwillingness to deal straightforwardly with the racist
) components of anthroposophy. Greetings,
)
)
) Peter S.
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
) http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%
20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene
=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
)
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Seriously
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 8:01 am ((PDT))
Peter:
)I've been away from Berlin for a while (at an archive in Koblenz this
)past week) and without consistent internet access. In a few days I'll
)head to Rome again for one more visit to the archive there, then at
)the end of the month I move back to the US.
Just wanted to say we will be glad to have you stateside again! Not
that it really matters in cyberspace, but it's the thought that counts?
Diana
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))
Hello Don,
You've gotten some excellent advice from Roger and Margaret that I
can't add much to. Just a couple of thoughts:
)I often get the feeling that the parents of my son's classmates were
)the types of people who were unpopular in school and have chosen a
)Waldorf school to re-live their childhood (through their children) in
)a way they wished it had been.
I think it goes a bit beyond that, I don't think Waldorf parents in
general were necessarily "unpopular in school" - that wasn't how it
appeared in our school, there were certainly some misfits but also a
goodly share of very accomplished and successful people. But I guess
this varies with the demographics.
But I think it's very true that Waldorf parents are often inadvertently
getting mixed up between their own needs and the needs of their
children, and finding (or hoping to find) a whole world of needs met in
what Waldorf claims to offer - community, spiritual advancement or at
least a reassurance that one is doing things "right" spiritually, and a
sort of seamless intimacy between the family and the school that is
difficult to achieve anywhere (and possibly not really desirable
anyway).
Diana
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.2. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:07 am ((PDT))
I agree with Roger that Margaret's summary was really excellent and
just want to particularly point to this as a great suggestion:
)Don, just a suggestion: you might want to call some of your local
)schools, telling them you are researching schools for your children,
)and set up interviews with the principals. During the interviews
)you can ask them if they have had other Waldorf students at their
)schools and what their experience has been with them. If you call on
)the phone and ask, you're not likely to get a candid response but in
)person it might be quite different.
This is a great suggestion, and if I were you, I would take a lot of
notes in these interviews, and ask these teachers or principals if at
a future date they'd be willing to testify, if needed, regarding
their impressions of students transferring from Waldorf in general.
Margaret also mentioned:
)Questionable supervision on some field trips.
I would say, questionable supervision, period - not just off the
school premises but on the playground etc.
It would be a really good idea to spend some time observing at your
kids' school, Don, in your own way and at your leisure. In other
words, don't let them dictate the terms to you, within reason.
Waldorf schools are notorious for preferring parents stay *out* of
classrooms - don't fall for this if you get a big song and dance
about how your presence in your own child's classroom will
be "disruptive," and don't let them try to put you off for several
weeks. Be firm and totally insist that you need to and will be
observing what goes on in your childrens' classrooms, in the school
yard or playground etc. Don't settle for being warmly invited to
attend a puppet play or all-school festival, for instance, as these
events are carefully stage-managed for public presentation and may
not give you a good handle on day-to-day reality at the Waldorf
school.
Also, if/when you do get into the classroom, don't let the teacher
try to intimidate you (in her smiling way) into not talking to the
children. Waldorf teachers have very specific ways they believe
adults should interact with children (and some of it's a little
kooky). Be prepared to be taken aback at suggestions you are doing or
saying something somehow "wrong" in talking to the children; just
push on, being pleasant and friendly and otherwise talking to the
children in the normal way I'm sure you know how to talk to children,
asking them questions, if you want, about how they like their school.
Ignore the teacher if this seems to fluster her and she tries to sing
over you or her voice suddenly shoots up an octave or something.
Diana
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.3. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:09 am ((PDT))
Don:
)I've never been able to figure out what eurythmy was about. The
)boys think it's so dull and boring
If you are looking for one single point that will sway your boys
regarding the school (not their mother, I'm sure, but the boys), simply
point out to them that if they continue Waldorf K-12, eurythmy and more
eurythmy is in store for them all the way through, there is no getting
out of it. In my experience, most of the kids really don't like it, and
a few find it an outright torment.
Diana
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.4. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))
Don:
)Which brings up another question. What's the deal with humor, or lack
)thereof? It might just be the culture of the school I'm involved
)with, but I don't hear much laughter at my children's school.
No, it isn't just your school. Humor tends not to be "reverent," and
children are supposed to be reverent above all. Belly laughs are never
encouraged. Also, there is an overriding concern to not "overstimulate"
children (which really means that the teacher, due to poor training,
often has no idea how to handle things if a lot of boisterousness
breaks out.)
Diana
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.5. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:21 am ((PDT))
Margaret wrote:
)when I think about what those scientists and inventors have
)contributed in terms of improving the quality of life for millions, I
)cannot think of anything comparable that Steiner and Anthroposophy
)have contributed.
Well, their reply would be that they've given the Waldorf schools,
Camphill, biodynamics, etc. of course.
Diana
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.6. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:22 am ((PDT))
Don wrote:
)Anyway, now that I'm motivated, and with the help of you, Roger and
)Dan's site, I'm going to force myself to learn as much as I can about
)Steiner and anthroposophy.
I think that reading Steiner (despite the arduousness of it) is
probably the most important thing you can do to be sure that you
understand what your children's education is all about - in addition to
visiting the school and staying as closely informed as you can about
events and daily reality there.
Diana
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.7. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:32 am ((PDT))
To all the great stuff on Roger's site I would like to note this
regarding "advice to parents":
)If after reading Steiner you still have an interest in Waldorf,
)visit the particular school you are considering and ask searching
)questions. Do the children recite a morning prayer or "verse"? Ask
)for the precise words. What sorts of books are in (or banned from)
)the library? Go into the library and look around. Are science
)courses taught straight, or with an anti- scientific bent? Ask what
)role mythology plays in the curriculum.
Yes - but you can't ask those questions straightforwardly that way
and expect to get straight answers, unfortunately. You have to
*observe*.
For instance, if you ask is there a morning prayer, you will be told
certainly not, it is just a verse. You need to show up one morning,
so that you are *there* when the "verse" is recited, and can take in
not just the actual words that are recited but also the tone, the
feeling in the classroom, whether it is light and enjoyable or
pathologically solemn and ritualized.
Prayer is kinda like pornography . . . you're gonna know it when you
see it. You need to form your own opinion about whether you're
looking at a classroom of children who are reciting poetry, or a
classroom of children who are being led in prayer by the teacher.
Likewise don't just ask is science taught straight - demand to
observe a science lesson.
If you ask what were Steiner's views on science, or specifically on
evolution for instance, you'll get "Of course Steiner had the utmost
respect for the accomplishments of modern science." Now I'm a broken
record but - attend a science lesson instead.
Diana
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.8. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:45 am ((PDT))
I have a bad habit. I quote from my own essays a lot. There's a reason. In them, I've tried
to say exactly what I mean; I can't find better words than the ones I've slaved over.
Anyway:
[30] Of all the art forms, eurythmy has particular significance in Steiner's system (see, e.g.,
ART AS SEEN IN THE LIGHT OF MYSTERY WISDOM, p. 41 and p. 50). One result is that
Steiner's statements concerning eurythmy are particularly arcane. To offer a quick
rundown: Eurythmy enables the physical body to make direct connection with the spiritual
realm. Our physical bodies are, in a sense, merely tools that enable us to do eurythmy.
Eurythmy gives us access to aspects of our previous lives, and it creates÷in our limbs÷
effects that will carry over into our next lives. (If the following quotation remains difficult
to decipher, focus on the final sentence.)
"In a certain sense, we take from earthly life only the physical medium, the actual human
being who is the tool or instrument for eurythmy. But we allow this human being to make
manifest what we study inwardly, what is already prepared in us as a result of previous
lives; we transfer this to our limbs, which are the part of us where life after death is being
shaped in advance. Eurythmy shapes and moves the human organism in a way that
furnishes direct external proof of our participation in the supersensible world. In having
people do eurythmy, we link them directly to the supersensible world." [Rudolf Steiner,
ART AS SPIRITUAL ACTIVITY (Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1998), p. 247.]
--yrs trly, R
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "winters_diana" (diana.winters ...) wrote:
)
) Don:
)
) )I've never been able to figure out what eurythmy was about. The
) )boys think it's so dull and boring
)
) If you are looking for one single point that will sway your boys
) regarding the school (not their mother, I'm sure, but the boys), simply
) point out to them that if they continue Waldorf K-12, eurythmy and more
) eurythmy is in store for them all the way through, there is no getting
) out of it. In my experience, most of the kids really don't like it, and
) a few find it an outright torment.
)
) Diana
)
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.9. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:48 am ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "winters_diana" (diana.winters ...) wrote:
)
) Margaret wrote:
)
) )when I think about what those scientists and inventors have
) )contributed in terms of improving the quality of life for millions, I
) )cannot think of anything comparable that Steiner and Anthroposophy
) )have contributed.
)
) Well, their reply would be that they've given the Waldorf schools,
) Camphill, biodynamics, etc. of course.
)
) Diana
)
Quick! Let's give it all back!
--R
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.10. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:54 am ((PDT))
Good advice. When I advocate asking questions, I mean probing as hard as you can. Look
people in the eye. Listen to their intonations. Note discrepancies between what they say
and what you've observed or read. Then, perhaps÷run away!
--R
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "winters_diana" (diana.winters ...) wrote:
)
) To all the great stuff on Roger's site I would like to note this
) regarding "advice to parents":
)
) )If after reading Steiner you still have an interest in Waldorf,
) )visit the particular school you are considering and ask searching
) )questions. Do the children recite a morning prayer or "verse"? Ask
) )for the precise words. What sorts of books are in (or banned from)
) )the library? Go into the library and look around. Are science
) )courses taught straight, or with an anti- scientific bent? Ask what
) )role mythology plays in the curriculum.
)
) Yes - but you can't ask those questions straightforwardly that way
) and expect to get straight answers, unfortunately. You have to
) *observe*.
)
) For instance, if you ask is there a morning prayer, you will be told
) certainly not, it is just a verse. You need to show up one morning,
) so that you are *there* when the "verse" is recited, and can take in
) not just the actual words that are recited but also the tone, the
) feeling in the classroom, whether it is light and enjoyable or
) pathologically solemn and ritualized.
)
) Prayer is kinda like pornography . . . you're gonna know it when you
) see it. You need to form your own opinion about whether you're
) looking at a classroom of children who are reciting poetry, or a
) classroom of children who are being led in prayer by the teacher.
)
) Likewise don't just ask is science taught straight - demand to
) observe a science lesson.
)
) If you ask what were Steiner's views on science, or specifically on
) evolution for instance, you'll get "Of course Steiner had the utmost
) respect for the accomplishments of modern science." Now I'm a broken
) record but - attend a science lesson instead.
)
) Diana
)
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.11. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:55 am ((PDT))
Roger:
)I have a bad habit. I quote from my own essays a lot. There's a
)reason. In them, I've tried to say exactly what I mean; I can't find
)better words than the ones I've slaved over.
LOL. You're simply honest. I suspect most of us feel that way about
our own words. I confess I often re-read my own posts with
satisfaction after they appear and think, "Yup, nailed it."
Thank you for all the info on eurythmy. I learn something new about
eurythmy every time anyone posts anything about it. Eurythmy in
itself is an endlessly deep topic. I'm convinced if you can
understand eurythmy (which I don't), you'd had the full picture of
what a Waldorf education is all about. It isn't insignificant that
it's the one subject all Waldorf students must take all through every
year in school - and that it's considered "curative" as well as
educational.
)[30] Of all the art forms, eurythmy has particular significance in
)Steiner's system (see, e.g., ART AS SEEN IN THE LIGHT OF MYSTERY
)WISDOM, p. 41 and p. 50). One result is that Steiner's statements
)concerning eurythmy are particularly arcane. To offer a quick
)rundown: Eurythmy enables the physical body to make direct
)connection with the spiritual realm. Our physical bodies are, in a
)sense, merely tools that enable us to do eurythmy. Eurythmy gives us
)access to aspects of our previous lives, and it creates÷in our limbs÷
)effects that will carry over into our next lives. (If the following
)quotation remains difficult to decipher, focus on the final
)sentence.)
)"In a certain sense, we take from earthly life only the physical
)medium, the actual human being who is the tool or instrument for
)eurythmy. But we allow this human being to make manifest what we
)study inwardly, what is already prepared in us as a result of
)previous lives; we transfer this to our limbs, which are the part of
)us where life after death is being shaped in advance. Eurythmy
)shapes and moves the human organism in a way that furnishes direct
)external proof of our participation in the supersensible world. In
)having eople do eurythmy, we link them directly to the supersensible
)world." [Rudolf Steiner, ART AS SPIRITUAL ACTIVITY (Hudson, NY:
)Anthroposophic Press, 1998), p. 247.]
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.12. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:57 am ((PDT))
)Well, their reply would be that they've given the Waldorf schools,
)Camphill, biodynamics, etc. of course.
)Quick! Let's give it all back!
LOL, exactly. (This is also what they mean when they insist Steiner was
a great "humanitarian" or the like.)
Diana
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.13. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 8:23 am ((PDT))
I wrote:
)LOL. You're simply honest. I suspect most of us feel that way about
)our own words. I confess I often re-read my own posts with
)satisfaction after they appear and think, "Yup, nailed it."
LOL, as long as we are being honest, however, I guess I should admit
that other times I read what I wrote later and think, Dear God, why
doesn't someone tell her to shut up. - Just so you don't think I have
as massive an ego as that came across. Then again, Peter says arrogance
is a sublime virtue :)
Diana
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
2.14. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004 yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:29 am ((PDT))
) Margaret wrote:
)
) )when I think about what those scientists and
) inventors have
) )contributed in terms of improving the quality of
) life for millions, I
) )cannot think of anything comparable that Steiner
) and Anthroposophy
) )have contributed.
Diana wrote:
) Well, their reply would be that they've given the
) Waldorf schools,
) Camphill, biodynamics, etc. of course.
Yes, that might be their reply but given what many of
us here know about the reality of Waldorf, Camphill
and biodynamics as opposed to the PR, I still cannot
think of anything comparable that Steiner and
Anthroposophy have contributed.
Best,
Margaret
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Rain Redux
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 6:51 am ((PDT))
Roger wrote (about his pets):
)When each one dies, I nearly die too.
It's just so unfair that they don't live as long as humans. We have to
go through it over and over and over, losing animals!
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Rain Redux
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "winters_diana" (diana.winters ...) wrote:
)
) Roger wrote (about his pets):
)
) )When each one dies, I nearly die too.
)
) It's just so unfair that they don't live as long as humans. We have to
) go through it over and over and over, losing animals!
)
Yes. But actually, it is better this way, I think. Ever seen the paitning, "The Old Shepard's One
Mourner"? Victorian melodrama. But I believe I can bear my dogs' deaths better than they
could bear mine. They would forget me sooner, if they hooked up with another good master.
But ther hearts are, I believe, better than mine. When they love, they LOVE.
--R
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Rain Redux
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:49 am ((PDT))
Roger:
)Yes. But actually, it is better this way, I think. Ever seen the
)paitning, "The Old Shepard's One Mourner"? Victorian melodrama. But I
)believe I can bear my dogs' deaths better than they could bear mine.
)They would forget me sooner, if they hooked up with another good
)master. But ther hearts are, I believe, better than mine. When they
)love, they LOVE.
Oh, God, Roger, please - I cry at the drop of a hat anyway, don't go on
like this :) My indoor cats (who lead a life of ease and luxury) can
act indifferent when we come home, "Oh, it's you. When's dinner?" but
we have a stray in the yard who is fiercely attached to me personally -
nobody else can even touch him - and he's a little bundle of love. I
can't even stand the thought of how he'd feel if I suddenly wasn't here.
Diana
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: Rain Redux
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:59 am ((PDT))
To quote John: "All you need is love."
To quote Paul: "I'm so sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry..."
(I currently have three dogs. They lie in the front yard, staring in the window, waiting for
me to come outdoors. They're there now. So I'm outta here.)
--Love, Roger
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "winters_diana" (diana.winters ...) wrote:
)
)
) Roger:
)
) )Yes. But actually, it is better this way, I think. Ever seen the
) )paitning, "The Old Shepard's One Mourner"? Victorian melodrama. But I
) )believe I can bear my dogs' deaths better than they could bear mine.
) )They would forget me sooner, if they hooked up with another good
) )master. But ther hearts are, I believe, better than mine. When they
) )love, they LOVE.
)
)
) Oh, God, Roger, please - I cry at the drop of a hat anyway, don't go on
) like this :) My indoor cats (who lead a life of ease and luxury) can
) act indifferent when we come home, "Oh, it's you. When's dinner?" but
) we have a stray in the yard who is fiercely attached to me personally -
) nobody else can even touch him - and he's a little bundle of love. I
) can't even stand the thought of how he'd feel if I suddenly wasn't here.
) Diana
)
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
3e. Re: Rain Redux
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 9:42 pm ((PDT))
Roger Rawlings wrote:
)Amazing how he got almost everything wrong, isn't it?
)
)"It is very natural to think of memory when a dog recognizes its
)master whom he has not seen perhaps for a long time. Yet, in
)reality, this recognition does not rest upon memory, but upon
)something quite different. The dog feels a certain attraction to its
)master. This attraction proceeds from the master's personality."
)--An Outline of Occult Science by Rudolf Steiner
Thanks, I knew it was in one of the first books that I read, but I
kept looking for it in "The Essential Steiner." Your edition and page?
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: material and spiritual
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:16 am ((PDT))
)From Peter: ) )There is nothing wrong with adopting an esoteric framework
) )and promoting its worthiness to others, but it makes no sense to
) )claim demonstrability, accuracy, and factuality on behalf of such a
) )framework, unless you are willing to abide by the standards of
) )reasoning and evidence for purposes of such a discussion.
Right. Here's a little test. I hereby claim that I am clairvoyant. Does anyone believe me? Why?
Does anyone doubt me? Why? Look: I'll prove my powers: The other night upon the stair, I
saw a little man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. Oh, how I wish he'd go away!
--Roger
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
This message is from the new list on Yahoo.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
(*) To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/
(*) Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
(*) To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
(*) To change settings via email:
mailto:waldorf-critics-normal yahoogroups.com
mailto:waldorf-critics-fullfeatured yahoogroups.com
(*) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
waldorf-critics-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com
(*) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is 1 message in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: Margaret Sachs
Message
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004 yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:47 am ((PDT))
--- Roger Rawlings (downfromfog yahoo.com) wrote:
) Margaret:
)
) You have written bravely and beautifully to aid more
) than one parent. Suggestion: Pull these
) postings together as a single essay (Margaret's
) Truths, or whatever). If Dan agrees, it should
) be posted on the PLANS site as advice for all
) current or potential Waldorf parents. Alternative:
) I will gladly post whatever you write on my site,
) and Dan can link to it. (The reason I have my
) own site is so that I can edit and revise at will,
) without driving Dan crazy. You would have
) complete freedom to make unending revisions at my
) site, if you so desire.)
)
) --Farmstead Re Grin
) (Margaret's friend. 66667 found.)
I don't think I'll be able to anytime in the near
future. I'm behind on my work for a variety of
reasons, including capturing, taming and finding good
homes for an abandoned mother cat and four of her
somewhat feral kittens (the final two were adopted
today). I'm going away in a couple of days and when I
get back I'm going to have to focus on earning a
living for a while! It's a good idea, though, so I
will try to get to it at some point.
Best,
Margaret
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
Messages in this topic (37)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
This message is from the new list on Yahoo.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
(*) To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/
(*) Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
(*) To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
(*) To change settings via email:
mailto:waldorf-critics-normal yahoogroups.com
mailto:waldorf-critics-fullfeatured yahoogroups.com
(*) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
waldorf-critics-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com
(*) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are 2 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Rain Redux
From: Roger Rawlings
2. lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: Dan Dugan
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Rain Redux
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Dan Dugan (dan ...) wrote:
)
) Roger Rawlings wrote:
)
) )Amazing how he got almost everything wrong, isn't it?
) )
) )"It is very natural to think of memory when a dog recognizes its
) )master whom he has not seen perhaps for a long time. Yet, in
) )reality, this recognition does not rest upon memory, but upon
) )something quite different. The dog feels a certain attraction to its
) )master. This attraction proceeds from the master's personality."
) )--An Outline of Occult Science by Rudolf Steiner
)
) Thanks, I knew it was in one of the first books that I read, but I
) kept looking for it in "The Essential Steiner." Your edition and page?
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
An Outline of Esoteric Science
By Rudolf Steiner
Published 1997
SteinerBooks
ISBN 0880104090
p. 40.
(This is the version I own. Posted text uses title "An Outline of Occult Science." Probably
older version, maybe from UK?)
--Roger
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 12:22 pm ((PDT))
I have received the following:
-Dan Dugan
***
LAWSUIT FILED AGAINST HIGHLAND HALL WALDORF SCHOOL
On June 7,2007, myself, Maura Swanson, and my husband, Karl Haas,
filed a lawsuit with the help of our attorney, Bill Becker, in the
Chatsworth Court House against Highland Hall Waldorf School in
Northridge, Ca. Our complaint names as defendants Highland Hall, as
well as teachers, Lisa Scemema Profumo, Merrily Lovell, and Judy
Taylor; administrator Ed Eadon; and President of the Board Tony Blake.
The lawsuit was filed within the one year statute of limitations and
was in response to our eight year old daughter being unjustifiably
expelled one week before she would have completed second grade.
Despite the fact that we had not only been parents at Highland Hall
for almost 12 years, and volunteered hundreds of hours each year,
and,also, that I had been periodically employed as a part-time teacher
in the high school, our family was notified by messenger that we were
not allowed on campus and our daughter was expelled because we had
allegedly violated the school communications regarding a water bottle.
We have attached the communications regarding the water bottle.
Our family was never given a warning that our daughter was about to be
expelled because we asked a simple question. We were never given any
opportunity to discuss or question the basis for this abrupt,
unfounded and traumatic action because the teachers and administrator
behind this decision hid behind the anonymity of a late night
messenger service. To this day, no one from the school will return
our calls, e-mails or any other correspondence requesting an
explanation. Not being able to prepare our child for the shock of
such a cruel and bizarre decision to prevent her from completing the
last five days of school will permanently impact her. We never
imagined that a school that claims to cherish the sanctity of
childhood would openly demonstrate such a pathological lack of empathy
for an innocent child.
Every principal or school administrator we have spoken to since being
banished from Highland Hall has been stunned by the lack of due
process. No one can comprehend the flimsy excuse for inflicting the
inexplicable cruelty of being expelled on a child who has done
absolutely nothing wrong. We have had the opportunity to interview
many educators in the last year because our oldest child was preparing
to graduate from High School and our middle child was finishing Eighth
grade. The last 12 months have been spent researching possible
colleges, high schools and elementary schools for our three children.
(If anyone is wondering about our sincerity in trying to provide our
children with a meaningful education, they might be interested to know
that our oldest daughter will be attending Stanford this fall, having
received nearly a full scholarship.)
HIghland Hall and each of the defendants have been sent by certified
mail a copy of the complaint that charges them with breach of
contract, negligent and intentional infliction of emotional distress,
fraud and defamation. Highland Hall and its defendants have been
given thirty days to respond to the initial complaint. As of today,
the defendants have not responded.
Below is a copy of the initial e-mail correspondence between us and
the Second grade teacher, Judy Taylor regarding the infamous water
bottle. They have to be read in reverse order. If anyone is
interested in contacting us, or would like to see a copy of the letter
we sent them requesting an explanation, please feel free to contact us
at mskeh prodigy.net Our lawyer is willing to add additional
plantiffs to our complaint.
Begin forwarded message:
) From: "Judy Taylor" -address deleted-
) Date: June 1, 2006 1:16:05 PM PDT
)
) Subject: water
)
) Dear Maura,
)
) I know that Lilly only brings water and I appreciate your compliance
with this. Unfortunately, before I allow something in the class, I
must think through what would happen if everyone did it. When I
cleaned out the cubbies, I did find other things and I am not able, at
this late juncture in the school year, to take on the implementation
of such a new policy. Additionally, the mere act of getting water from
cubbies rather than the sink or drinking fountain creates a much
different and more chaotic social situation that, again, I simply am
not up to dealing with at the end of the school year.
) If everyone starts bringing water to keep on the counter, we may
have to store it in a moveable basket, as it is my only "prep area" in
the classroom. Other possiblities would be disposable cups for her, or
using the outside drinking fountain.
) We are in the school of "Right Now" and, as such, must deal with
limited space and (sometimes) finances; this leads us (okay, me) to
imperfect solutions at times.
)
) Judy Taylor
)
)) To: "Judy Taylor" -address deleted-
)) Subject: Re: ants in cubbies
)) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:14:43 -0700
))
)) Judy,
)) Lilly's drinking only water that is packed with her lunch - she has
never taken a juice box or any other drink to school.
))
)) We will tell Lilly that we have communicated with you and that
before she goes outside for the first recess, after she has finished
her snack, she should put her water bottle on the counter, so that it
is there when she comes inside. She may need a little reminder from
you that this is the new system.
))
)) We appreciate you allowing this. For the 12 years we've been at
this school, we have never wanted our children to use the glasses in
the classroom, because it's another possible way to spread germs.
Considering the amount of strep throat, stomach viruses and other
bugs that have galloped through so many Second grade families in the
past month, and the fact that Lilly has gotten none of these
illnesses, we are convinced that Lilly drinking only from her
container and not sharing food with her friends has helped reduce the
risk of her (and our family) getting sick.
))
)) Thank You,
)) Maura and Karl
))
)) On Jun 1, 2006, at 6:23 AM, Judy Taylor wrote:
))
))) Lilly may keep extra water on the shelf where we keep the cups or
on the counter adjacent to the sink. Unfortunately, children began
to keep other drinks for mid-morning sipping in their cubbies, along
with some other snack items (outside of lunchboxes), which attracted
some insects that I spent several hours after work one day
evacuating. Water is fine; it is about its location.
)))
)))
)))) To: Taylor Judy -address deleted-
)))) Subject: water in class
)))) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 22:40:17 -0700
))))
)))) Hi Judy,
)))) Lilly told us that you have a new rule which says that after
))))each recess, your students are no longer allowed to go to their
))))cubby
and drink the water they packed for school. Instead, they must only
drink from the water and cups that are available in the classroom.
Is it possible that Lilly has misunderstood something? We do not
want Lilly to use the porcelain classroom cups. Even though the
school provides filtered water, the cups are not always clean,
and/or the children are not always fastidious about returning their
cup to the space on the shelf that has their name. We only want
Lilly to drink the water that we send with her to school. We do
not wish to add more chaos to your classroom, but if you could allow
Lilly to continue to drink her own bottled water, we would
appreciate it. If you would like to discuss this, or if Lilly has
misunderstood what you are requesting, please let us know.
))))
)))) Thank You,
)))) Maura Swanson and Karl Haas
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
This message is from the new list on Yahoo.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
(*) To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/
(*) Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
(*) To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
(*) To change settings via email:
mailto:waldorf-critics-normal yahoogroups.com
mailto:waldorf-critics-fullfeatured yahoogroups.com
(*) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
waldorf-critics-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com
(*) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: Roger Rawlings
1b. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: Roger Rawlings
1c. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: winters_diana
1d. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: winters_diana
1e. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: winters_diana
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:15 am ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Dan Dugan (dan ...) wrote:
)
) I have received the following:
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ***
)
) LAWSUIT FILED AGAINST HIGHLAND HALL WALDORF SCHOOL
)
) On June 7,2007, myself, Maura Swanson, and my husband, Karl Haas,
) filed a lawsuit with the help of our attorney, Bill Becker, in the
) Chatsworth Court House against Highland Hall Waldorf School in
) Northridge, Ca. Our complaint names as defendants Highland Hall, as
) well as teachers, Lisa Scemema Profumo, Merrily Lovell, and Judy
) Taylor; administrator Ed Eadon; and President of the Board Tony Blake.
)
) The lawsuit was filed within the one year statute of limitations and
) was in response to our eight year old daughter being unjustifiably
) expelled one week before she would have completed second grade.
) Despite the fact that we had not only been parents at Highland Hall
) for almost 12 years, and volunteered hundreds of hours each year,
) and,also, that I had been periodically employed as a part-time teacher
) in the high school, our family was notified by messenger that we were
) not allowed on campus and our daughter was expelled because we had
) allegedly violated the school communications regarding a water bottle.
) We have attached the communications regarding the water bottle.
The thought processes of Waldorf teachers are often difficult to trace. One is tempted, in a
case like this, to assume that the issue of the water bottle was a mere pretext÷that the
teacher(s) wanted to expel the child for some esoteric reason, but rather that laying open
their occult secrets, they chose to fight the battle on the basis of drinking water.
A couple of other thoughts do spring to mind, however:
1) One Waldorf precept is that, especially in the early grades, students should obey their
teachers virtually without question or demur. This is, in Anthroposophical lore, necessary
for the child's proper spiritual development. So a Waldorf teacher could conceivably
conclude that even a minor divergence from the practices s/he has laid down reveals that
a child is spiritually unfit. (Zounds!)
2) Also, Steiner taught that all physical things, including water, have spiritual qualities and
powers: e.g. "Water, in effect, is eminently suited to prepare the ways within the earthly
domain for those forces which come, for instance, from the Moon. Water brings about the
distribution of the lunar forces in the earthly realm...[Rudolf Steiner, AGRICULTURE
COURSE (Forest Row, UK, Rudolf Steiner Press, 2004), p.26] Conceivably Waldorf teachers
may decide that water brought into the school, as opposed to water provided by the
school, is spiritually unacceptable, making for a spiritually unhealthy environment.
Just some speculations, I'll be interested to read what others on the list make of this
extraordinary case.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:25 am ((PDT))
cont.
3) R. Steiner did not entirely reject the germ theory. (See, e.g., The Healing Process: Spirit,
Nature and Our Bodies - Page 12 by Rudolf Steiner - 2000 "It is not my intention here to
say anything against germ theory, which in fact is very useful. The appearance of different
bacilli in different locations is ..."
But he generally taught that physical conditions reflect spiritual (karmic) conditions, and
illnesses are the working out of karmic destiny (see http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/
articles/Smith-Hald.html)
My recollection is that we had a water sink at the rear of most classrooms and one or two
shared water glasses. We rinsed÷but did not clean÷the glasses.
4) In dealing with Waldorf staff, always remember that you are probably dealing with
mystics, not rationalists. Remember that Steiner said the brain is irrelevant to true
cognition. My guess about Highland Hills (only a guess) is that someone had a vision
indicating the child must go÷so out she went.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:58 pm ((PDT))
The story was first reported here a year ago, I think when it
happened.
I have a couple of reactions, but foremost that it is obviously not
really about a water bottle, given that the family had been at the
school a very long time. These situations always result from long
conflicts and breakdown of trust and communication, a long war that
is hot and then cold and then hot again, and finally some excuse is
found to end it, like in any long relationship that is irreparably
broken.
But I don't find it hard to believe at all that the teacher couldn't
handle a simple change or deviation in routine of this sort. Whether
it's poor training, or whether people like this are attracted to
Waldorf training, it's a very common scenario that the teacher is
simply too inflexible to know any other way to handle this, and
something that in most any classroom (child keeping water bottle in
cubby) would not cause 10 seconds of commotion, becomes the cause of
a complete breakdown in the teacher's coping skills, and a crisis is
precipitated.
Crises over (what should be) very small hygiene or sanitary matters
are also common in Waldorf. Roger's story of glasses rinsed but not
washed matches my experience. I could tell lots of other stories on
this - the classroom with no hot water, so we just used cold water;
the cloth napkins that the children shared, crusted with food and
washed once a week - and of course the famous communal washbowl. (Do
you remember a communal washbowl, Roger?)
Diana
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))
Roger commented:
)1) One Waldorf precept is that, especially in the early grades,
)students should obey their teachers virtually without question or
)demur.
Yes. Also, there is a strong emphasis on doing everything communally;
children shouldn't be singled out from one another in any way,
everyone must perform the same routines together at the same time, or
else too much individuality is encouraged too soon. (And that's
too "astral" or something.) That's why the teacher frets that all the
glasses or bottles be in one place, so that one child doesn't have to
go to some different place to get *her* things, and her things don't
look different or cause anyone to comment to her about it. Again, in
any other type classroom no one would think twice about something so
trivial as getting your water bottle out of your cubby, and the
teacher probably makes the child more "self-conscious" by worrying
about it than she would by letting her go get the damn water bottle
without acting like this was significant.
)This is, in Anthroposophical lore, necessary for the child's proper
)spiritual development. So a Waldorf teacher could conceivably
)conclude that even a minor divergence from the practices s/he has
)laid down reveals that a child is spiritually unfit.
To put it kindly, they may not think the child is unfit, but she will
be "damaged" by being allowed to deviate from the class's routines.
Also, the kindergarten teachers consider it one of their main jobs to
orchestrate all these little routines. They've really put a lot of
thought into just how to organize all these thousands of little
details as to how the children move through the day (literally move
physically). She'll have spent hours walking through it, they'll take
off their shoes and then they'll stop HERE for their glass and then
they'll sit HERE etc. One child going to her cubby on the other side
of the room while the others get glasses off a different shelf,
messes everything up. It's all significant, and they're very invested
in how perfectly they've worked it out. In addition to being
inflexible (and this appeals to inflexible personalities), they're
sort of propietary about the way they've organized things, and
offended when someone wants to change it or points out a more
practical way.
Diana
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:11 pm ((PDT))
Roger:
)But he generally taught that physical conditions reflect spiritual
)(karmic) conditions, and illnesses are the working out of karmic
)destiny
Quite true. To the parents it was obvious that it was a good thing that
the girl had avoided catching various stomach bugs that were going
around. To the teacher, this isn't obvious at all. She won't say so to
the parents, but she doesn't necessarily think it's always a good thing
to prevent children getting sick. Preventing the spread of germs is
definitely not something she strategizes about. So she is just not
terribly sympathetic to this parental concern; the location of the
water glasses, the routines the children move through when they get a
drink of water, etc., anthroposophically speaking all this is much more
important to the child's "health" than avoidance of germs.
Diana
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
This message is from the new list on Yahoo.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
(*) To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/
(*) Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
(*) To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
(*) To change settings via email:
mailto:waldorf-critics-normal yahoogroups.com
mailto:waldorf-critics-fullfeatured yahoogroups.com
(*) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
waldorf-critics-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com
(*) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are 16 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: donwollie
1.2. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: donwollie
1.3. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: donwollie
1.4. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
From: winters_diana
2a. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: Roger Rawlings
2b. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: Roger Rawlings
2c. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: Roger Rawlings
2d. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: Roger Rawlings
2e. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: Dan Dugan
2f. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: winters_diana
2g. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: winters_diana
2h. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
From: winters_diana
3a. Anthroposophic medicine
From: donwollie
3b. Re: Anthroposophic medicine
From: Roger Rawlings
3c. Re: Anthroposophic medicine
From: Dan Dugan
3d. Re: Anthroposophic medicine
From: winters_diana
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "donwollie" donwollie yahoo.com donwollie
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:38 am ((PDT))
Boy, Roger. I didn't realize that you had so much info on that site.
Impressive. I'm working my way through it. Picked my sons up on
Sunday for a week at the beach, so I haven't had a ton of time to read
(or write) in the last few days.
My ex had mentioned going to Vermont for a few days in July, and I
noticed a brochure for a Rudolf Steiner Institute (in Vermont) on a
table when I picked up my sons. Putting two and two together, that
where she will be going. So, it looks like she is getting deeper into
Steiner and anthroposophy at the same time I'm becoming more alienated
from it. I've got my work cut out for me.
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "Roger Rawlings"
(downfromfog ...) wrote:
)
) --- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "donwollie" (donwollie ) wrote:
) )
) ) Roger,
) )
) ) Where can I find the quote in point 4 regarding the cosmic plan?
)
)
) I apologize that my memoir is so long. But you'll find almost
everything I know or think in
) that gargantuan document. The damned thing has almost 100 footnotes.
Here's the quote
) and the footnote.
)
) "Among the faculty, we must certainly carry within us the knowledge
that we are not here
) for our own sakes, but to carry out the divine cosmic plan. We
should always remember
) that when we do something, we are actually carrying out the
intentions of the gods, that
) we are, in a certain sense, the means by which that streaming down
from above will go out
) into the world."[21]
)
) [21] FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, (Hudson, NY:
Anthroposophic Press,
) 1998, Volumes 1 & 2), p. 55.
)
) On the matter of "gods": Steiner taught that the beings of the
spiritual realm are arranged
) in various hierarchies. Some high-ranking beings may be referred to
as gods, although the
) Godhead of the Holy Trinity stands highest. [See Rudolf Steiner, THE
SPIRITUAL
) HIERARCHIES AND THE PHYSICAL WORLD: REALITY AND ILLUSION (Hudson, NY:
) Anthroposophic Press, 1996.)]
)
) --Yrs trly, RR
)
) P.S. here's a snippted from my site:
)
)
)
)
) ADVICE FOR PARENTS
)
) Waldorf schools (sometimes called Steiner schools) generally claim
to be nonsectarian. In
) fact, they are religious institutions operated in accordance with
the tenets of
) Anthroposophy, a gnostic semi-Christian religion founded by the
mystic Rudolf Steiner.
)
) If you consider a Waldorf school for your child, first read a couple
of books by Steiner. See
) if your view of the world coincides with his. Perhaps the best
choice is the two-volume set
) FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER (Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic
Press, 1998). In
) it, you will find Steiner's instructions to the teachers at the
first Waldorf school•Ŕ¸you will
) learn, in Steiner's own words, what Steiner intended for Waldorf
students.
)
) If after reading Steiner you still have an interest in Waldorf,
visit the particular school you
) are considering and ask searching questions. Do the children recite
a morning prayer or
) "verse"? Ask for the precise words. What sorts of books are in (or
banned from) the library?
) Go into the library and look around. Are science courses taught
straight, or with an anti-
) scientific bent? Ask what role mythology plays in the curriculum.
Ask who Rudolf Steiner
) was. Ask for his views on evolution. Ask about clairvoyance (Steiner
claimed to be
) clairvoyant•Ŕ¸and he taught that "organs of clairvoyance" grow inside
people). Ask about
) the purpose of eurythmy (Steiner said this form of dance connects
people directly to the
) spirit realm). Pass around copies of Steiner quotations that raise
questions for you, then
) ask those questions.
)
) Try to learn how deeply committed the school is to Steiner's
doctrines. Not all Waldorfs are
) alike. Some may distance themselves from Steiner's racism, for
instance. The problem,
) however, is that Steiner's entire system is built on his
clairvoyant, mystical
) "insights" (which include his racist "insights"). A Waldorf school
cannot wholly rid itself of
) mysticism unless it wholly renounces Steiner•Ŕ¸in which case it ceases
to be a real Waldorf
) school. Halfway measures may be possible•Ŕ¸affirming some of Steiner's
mystical teachings
) while rejecting others•Ŕ¸but mysticism would necessarily remain
entrenched in the
) curriculum, while some of the "truths" that gave that mysticism its
justification would be
) absent. The resulting pedagogy, tacking among an expurgated set of
Steiner's teachings,
) would inevitably lose much of its coherence and rationale.
)
) Jewish parents may want to take special precautions. Think carefully
about Steiner's
) racism, the emphasis he placed on Jesus, and the evidently
anti-Semitic comments he
) made, such as the following: "The Jews have a great gift for
materialism, but little for
) recognition of the spiritual world." You also may want to
investigate the debate over
) possible ties between some Anthroposophists and Nazis.
)
) All parents of all backgrounds who consider Waldorf schools for
their children should
) press persistently for honest answers about the schools' policies
and underlying theology.
) If you mistrust any answers you receive, send your kids elsewhere.
Their lives are in your
) hands.
)
)
)
) •Ŕ¸
)
)
)
) For a detailed discussion of Steiner's teachings and the nature of
Waldorf education, click
) on "unenlightened" or "shebang." For a selection of revealing
statements made by Steiner,
) click on "quotations." I have included several statements from
FACULTY MEETINGS WITH
) RUDOLF STEINER. -- Roger Rawlings
)
Messages in this topic (41)
________________________________________________________________________
1.2. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "donwollie" donwollie yahoo.com donwollie
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:56 am ((PDT))
Thank you for responding Diana.
I think you're probably correct in your characterization of the parens
needs and, especially, the desire for community.
I don't want to get too specific about where the school is, (don't
want any more problems before I'm ready for them), but it is in a
location where most of the families are not originally from the area.
Many of the parents (particularly mothers) seem to be looking for the
shared values that one can find in a Waldorf community. They aren't
my values, but I can understand the appeal.
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "winters_diana"
(diana.winters ...) wrote:
)
) Hello Don,
) You've gotten some excellent advice from Roger and Margaret that I
) can't add much to. Just a couple of thoughts:
)
) )I often get the feeling that the parents of my son's classmates were
) )the types of people who were unpopular in school and have chosen a
) )Waldorf school to re-live their childhood (through their children) in
) )a way they wished it had been.
)
) I think it goes a bit beyond that, I don't think Waldorf parents in
) general were necessarily "unpopular in school" - that wasn't how it
) appeared in our school, there were certainly some misfits but also a
) goodly share of very accomplished and successful people. But I guess
) this varies with the demographics.
)
) But I think it's very true that Waldorf parents are often inadvertently
) getting mixed up between their own needs and the needs of their
) children, and finding (or hoping to find) a whole world of needs met in
) what Waldorf claims to offer - community, spiritual advancement or at
) least a reassurance that one is doing things "right" spiritually, and a
) sort of seamless intimacy between the family and the school that is
) difficult to achieve anywhere (and possibly not really desirable
) anyway).
)
)
) Diana
)
Messages in this topic (41)
________________________________________________________________________
1.3. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "donwollie" donwollie yahoo.com donwollie
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:02 am ((PDT))
All good advice, Diana.
It was actually an hour in a classroom that led to raising my level of
discomfort with Waldorf. Parents were asked to come into class and
let the children read to them one-on-one. I listened to six children
for about ten minutes each and was pretty disappointed with the
overall level of competency, for late second graders.
I may try to get some more classroom time this coming year. I was
very clear in a meeting with my son's teacher at the start of 1st
grade that Waldorf would not have been my choice for a school. I'm not
that easily intimidated, especially in a case like this where I really
don't care too much about how I'm viewed. By that I mean I'll be
respectful, but I'm clearly "not with the program" and disapproval by
the teacher or other parents won't bother me.
I hear footsteps, so at least one son is awake. I'll try to respond
more when i can get some time.
Don
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "winters_diana"
(diana.winters ...) wrote:
)
) I agree with Roger that Margaret's summary was really excellent and
) just want to particularly point to this as a great suggestion:
)
) )Don, just a suggestion: you might want to call some of your local
) )schools, telling them you are researching schools for your children,
) )and set up interviews with the principals. During the interviews
) )you can ask them if they have had other Waldorf students at their
) )schools and what their experience has been with them. If you call on
) )the phone and ask, you're not likely to get a candid response but in
) )person it might be quite different.
)
) This is a great suggestion, and if I were you, I would take a lot of
) notes in these interviews, and ask these teachers or principals if at
) a future date they'd be willing to testify, if needed, regarding
) their impressions of students transferring from Waldorf in general.
)
) Margaret also mentioned:
)
) )Questionable supervision on some field trips.
)
) I would say, questionable supervision, period - not just off the
) school premises but on the playground etc.
)
) It would be a really good idea to spend some time observing at your
) kids' school, Don, in your own way and at your leisure. In other
) words, don't let them dictate the terms to you, within reason.
) Waldorf schools are notorious for preferring parents stay *out* of
) classrooms - don't fall for this if you get a big song and dance
) about how your presence in your own child's classroom will
) be "disruptive," and don't let them try to put you off for several
) weeks. Be firm and totally insist that you need to and will be
) observing what goes on in your childrens' classrooms, in the school
) yard or playground etc. Don't settle for being warmly invited to
) attend a puppet play or all-school festival, for instance, as these
) events are carefully stage-managed for public presentation and may
) not give you a good handle on day-to-day reality at the Waldorf
) school.
)
) Also, if/when you do get into the classroom, don't let the teacher
) try to intimidate you (in her smiling way) into not talking to the
) children. Waldorf teachers have very specific ways they believe
) adults should interact with children (and some of it's a little
) kooky). Be prepared to be taken aback at suggestions you are doing or
) saying something somehow "wrong" in talking to the children; just
) push on, being pleasant and friendly and otherwise talking to the
) children in the normal way I'm sure you know how to talk to children,
) asking them questions, if you want, about how they like their school.
) Ignore the teacher if this seems to fluster her and she tries to sing
) over you or her voice suddenly shoots up an octave or something.
)
) Diana
)
Messages in this topic (41)
________________________________________________________________________
1.4. Re: I use use some help and/or guidance
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:15 pm ((PDT))
Don:
)It was actually an hour in a classroom that led to raising my level
)of discomfort with Waldorf.
That will often do it. I saw that scenario play out several times.
People who thought they were comfortable with Waldorf, suddenly
having a lot of questions that it had never occurred to them to ask.
I recall a number of cases where the parent took the child out *right
then* after the classroom visit.
Because I had been in the classroom (working as an aide) for so long,
I knew a lot more than most of the parents. One day a mother who had
spent a couple of hours in the classroom, and promptly decided to
remove her child, spoke to me, and I said I had seen what she was
describing. She gave me a withering look and said, "If you knew, then
why didn't you say something?" leading to a lot of guilt and the
realization that indeed, I should be saying something.
)Parents were asked to come into class and let the children read to
)them one-on-one.
Well, let me tell you, this means this is one of the more progressive
Waldorf schools, if this was going on in the second grade. Many
discourage not only parents in the classroom but parents encouraging
the children to read at all, at least in any formal way, at this age.
I know it may seem surprising, but as far as Waldorf goes, this is
GREAT, absolutely great, that they are doing this.
)I listened to six children for about ten minutes each and was pretty
)disappointed with the overall level of competency, for late second
)graders.
That's not surprising, but still, it sounds like they are at least
trying to encourage second graders to read. Bravo!!!!
(Now they just have to tackle the fact that they probably don't know
*how* to teach them to read.)
)I'm not that easily intimidated, especially in a case like this
)where I really don't care too much about how I'm viewed. By that I
)mean I'll be respectful, but I'm clearly "not with the program" and
)disapproval by the teacher or other parents won't bother me.
That sounds like the right approach.
Diana
Messages in this topic (41)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:14 am ((PDT))
)(Do you remember a communal washbowl, Roger?)
)
) Diana
)
Don't think so. Our school was pretty well endowed: hot water, sinks, etc. But I think I
remember (don't hold me to this absolutely) that after taking showers (after gym classes), we
shared towels.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:20 am ((PDT))
Also, the kindergarten teachers consider it one of their main jobs to
) orchestrate all these little routines.
There's a tremendous emphasis in Athroposophy and Waldorf on pattern. Everything has
occult meaning. The teachers are supposed to be leading the kids through "the divine cosmic
plan." Breaking up the patterns means violating the intentions of the gods. (!)
--Roger
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:32 am ((PDT))
Returning to the ostensible subject: water. Remember that at Waldorf nothing is as it seems.
"Outwardly, water is maya, and it would not exist in the world were it not for
its spiritual foundation in renunciation or resignation."
Rudolf Steiner, "The Spiritual Hierarchies and the Physical World: Reality and Illusion", Steiner
Books, 1996, p. 207, ISBN 0880104406
I'll drink to that.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:18 pm ((PDT))
(Still more rain.)
Relevant to our current discussion: Steiner taught that children pass through three stages
of development, and that anything approximating a normal education should be
postponed until the third stage:
"Until the time of the change of teeth [i.e., loss of baby teeth÷around age 7], children
want to imitate. Until the time of puberty [around age 14], they want to stand under
authority, and then [over age 14] they want to use their judgment in the world...What do
human beings actually desire when they arrive from the spirit-soul world and clothe
themselves in bodies? Human beings want to bring what they previously lived through in
the spiritual world...Before the change of teeth, human beings are, in a sense, focused on
the past...Children live so much in the past and, in many respects, reveal, not the physical,
but the prenatal, the spirit-soul past. After human beings have gone through the change
of teeth, they actually live constantly in the present...Before puberty it is not wise to offer
systematized instruction because children have a correct inner concept of truth only
following puberty." - Rudolf Steiner, THE FOUNDATIONS OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE
(Foundations of Waldorf Education, 1) (Great Barrington, MA: Anthroposophic Press, 1996),
pp. 155-158.
Note that children are expected to exert little or no individuality or initiative until at least
age 14. Children who fail to follow the correct pattern may be judged to be spiritually
deficient. "[C]ases are increasing in which children are born with a human form, but are
not really human beings...instead, they are filled with beings that do not belong to the
human class. Quite a number of people have been born...[who] are not reincarnated, but
are human forms filled with a sort of natural demon...." - FACULTY MEETINGS WITH
RUDOLF STEINER, p. 649.
To be expelled from a Waldorf because of a bottle of water÷or for any other reason÷is a
great, unintended mercy. As Monty Python used to say so wisely: "Run away!"
--Roger
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:22 pm ((PDT))
I had forgotten, but here are the posts when this issue was aired on
this list a year ago:
-Dan Dugan
***
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:32:43 +0000
From: Pete Karaiskos (pkcompany netzero.net)
Subject: RE: More Trouble Brewing at HH
Pete Karaiskos wrote:
) I'm a little pressed for time tonight, but I'll be providing the details
)
) on this list tomorrow.
The following letter was written by the family of the eight-year-old
girl who was expelled from Highland Hall five days before the end of the
semester because someone told someone else that one of her parents had
discussed an event (concerning whether or not the child would be allowed
to bring bottled water into the classroom and be allowed to drink from
it at a time appointed by the teacher) with another parent. Amazing as
it seems, parents are not allowed to talk to each other about class
issues and because this parent was ACCUSED of talking about this, the 8
year old child was expelled. The parents, Highland Hall parents since
1994, were told they must be escorted onto the campus to retrieve the
child's belongings.
This occurred because this particular family was vocal during the verbal
and emotional abuse inflicted by a bad teacher - and previously during
the coverup of child molestation incidents. Could Highland Hall have
waited 5 days to expel the child quietly? Of course. But the impact on
the family would not have been as devastating - not adequate revenge for
a family that speaks up about problems there. And the example to other
parents is far more shocking when it happens like this. Let everyone
who reads this know what lengths some Waldorf schools will go to in
order to quiet parents and avoid public scrutiny. The same few teachers
and administrators who are working to destroy Highland Hall are, once
again, at the bottom of this. Certainly, by publicly commenting on this
incident, I am putting myself and my children in jeopardy. It always
saddens me to see the same small-minded few at Highland Hall continually
undermine the integrity of the school for those of us who would like it
to be a good school for our kids. Once again, Highland Hall has behaved
shamefully when it would have been just as easy to behave honestly.
Below is the text of the letter:
* * * * *
June 11, 2006
Dear Friends,
We know many of you are deeply upset about the administration's sudden
decision to remove our daughter from class, five days before school is
over. We have heard that there will be a meeting of all concerned
parents on Monday. Because we believe there are always at least two
sides to every story, and we have no other way to publicly speak on our
behalf, we would like to offer our take on what's happened. We
absolutely have no expectation that this will change the decision. If,
at the Monday meeting, you are told "It's very complicated - there are a
lot of details about these parents that you don't know, but are too
difficult to explain", please believe those are the same key details we
don't know about either.
If you are going to take the time to attend the Monday meeting, we hope
you will also take a few minutes to read this letter. If you're really
curious or concerned, this situation does require a prologue.
BRIEF HISTORY:
)From June 2003 to January 2004, we repeatedly asked for the school's
help in addressing our mounting concerns with our Fifth grade son's
teacher, Mrs. {Teacher1}. After a long brutal process, we agreed with
the school that our son should not stay in Mrs. {Teacher1}'s class,
because there was only one other parent besides us that was willing to
come forward and say that they felt she was doing inappropriate things
to the children. Two days after we came to the conclusion that by Sixth
grade we would find another school for our son, Mrs. {Teacher1} decided
to teach the children a song involving very graphic violence against
women imagery. The College immediately put her on a paid leave of
absence. The rest of the semester was filled with a lot of anguishing
meetings with many of the parents crying and yelling at various members
of the College, insisting Mrs. {Teacher1} didn't deserve the way she was
being treated. Ultimately, Mrs. {Teacher1} could not resolve her issues
with the College, and chose not to return. Less than a week after
school ended, we got a letter from the College telling us that our son
could not attend Highland Hall as punishment for our having violated
their communications protocol. We were warned that if they perceived we
were communicating inappropriately, our daughter would not be allowed to
attend Highland Hall. We responded with a three page letter asking for
the College to tell us exactly what we did wrong, when throughout the
entire process, various committee members had admitted they had made
significant mistakes, and thanked us for carefully following their
protocol, despite how painful the whole experience was for all
concerned. We never got a response to our letter. A few months later,
the President of the Board met with us and told us that he had received
a copy of our letter and felt it was well-written and clearly deserved a
response. Neither he nor {the head administrator} could explain why no
one answered us. This past Friday night, two years later, we finally
got a response. At nine o'clock, a messenger arrived at our house and
handed us a letter, so hastily typed it was not even on school
stationery. The letter stated we had ignored the warning that the
College had sent in 2004 and violated the communications protocol again.
Effective immediately, our daughter is expelled from the class and we
are not allowed on campus without a prearranged escort from {the head
administrator}.
Apparently there is a strong belief that we have somehow harmed
{Teacher2}. Without knowing exactly what we have been accused of doing
to her, we cannot defend or apologize for our alleged actions.
Whoever has decided that we have done something so inappropriate that
our child must be immediately removed from the classroom, has yet to
inform us of exactly how we were a danger to {Teacher2} or the
community. This time we have been accused of violating a communications
protocol regarding water bottles. We were not shown any incriminating
evidence, or given any proof of violating this protocol, and ultimately,
we have no opportunity to defend ourselves against what we feel is a
false accusation.
We have a paper trail of two years of communicating with appreciation,
respect and deep enthusiasm for {Teacher2}. There would be no reason
for us to make {Teacher2} feel threatened by our presence, or the
presence of our daughter in her classroom. And again, we have no idea
who has told her what piece of information to upset her so much that she
cannot tolerate our little girl being in her class for the remaining
five days of the school year. Because we had felt so close to
{Teacher2}, we have not a clue why, if she feels we have hurt her, she
wouldn't respect us enough to come to us directly to let us know, so we
might have a chance to clear up any kind of misunderstanding.
We can only guess that perhaps {Teacher2} is too exhausted, after an
extremely busy year, to be aware of the devastating impact on our child,
and the rest of her students. We sympathize with her exhaustion, but
then have to ask, who has advised {Teacher2} to do such a frighteningly
harsh thing to our daughter? How is it that the Leadership Team does
not need to present us with any scrap of evidence, nor did they offer to
bring us together with {Teacher2} and facilitate a conflict resolution
that would allow all of us to work towards a mutual understanding that,
according to the handbook, will "result in positive growth for the
individuals involved and for the school as a whole"?
If you attend this meeting on Monday, we hope someone will ask the
Leadership Team where is the evidence; and did you honestly give these
parents a chance to resolve whatever conflict has happened? Who is
supervising the Leadership Team to make sure they have followed some
kind of legitimate process that can warrant such harsh consequences for
an eight year old child?
Our family has invested in this school since 1994 - longer than many
people on the board, the faculty and the administration. About three
weeks ago, our daughter made a book that was all about {Teacher2},
complete with illustrations. {Teacher2} seemed so delighted that she
showed it to many colleagues and asked to borrow it for the weekend. A
month ago, we were profusely thanking {Teacher2} for an outstanding
evening presentation she gave to the parents. We felt genuinely
connected to her and inspired and grateful for her many efforts, and she
seemed sincerely touched by our enthusiastic response.
We simply do not know what has happened to change this relationship.
We have called {Teacher2} to ask for clarification, but have yet to
have our phone call returned.
If an anonymous person can secretly accuse our family of doing something
so terrible that it results in our innocent child being expelled, but we
don't even know what specifically is being said, or who said it - then
there is no way we can clear up any miscommunication.
Is it possible that there are people on the Leadership Team or the
Faculty or the Administration who still harboring resentment towards us
about issues involving ancient history - absolutely. When you have been
at this school as long as we have, it is inevitable that for every
friend you have made, there's at least one person you've unintentionally
offended, and at least two who have accidentally offended you.
It would be so much easier to believe we actually did something
terrible, because no intelligent person can accept such an irrational
action, especially when it is so deliberately devastating to a young
child. What kind of story will be told to the children to find a
wholesome way to explain this awful situation so that they won't be
frightened? If it can happen to their friend,who they know "has never
had her name on the board or been kicked out of class or caused any
problem", then how does the school reassure the other students and their
parents that this won't happen to them?
We came to this school because we believed that a Waldorf education was
the best way to nurture our children. We are leaving shocked, and
somewhat shattered, but still very grateful for all the wonderful
friends we have met. It is profoundly sad to know our child is not
entitled to properly say good-bye. She is worried that her friends will
think she has done something really bad. It is hard to believe that we
are not allowed to attend next week's graduation of so many children
we've known since Kindergarten, nor may we participate in any future
functions at a place where we spent so much energy building and
contributing to the welfare of the school. What we couldn't always give
in cash, we always gave in sweat equity and we got to know many
wonderful people in the process. Our oldest daughter, {Daughter1}, went
from Kindergarten through Eighth grade here. Just last week, {Teacher3}
was trying to help her find summer employment. {Daughter1} loved
attending the plays, concerts, fairs and assemblies and helped decorate
for the Father-Daughter dance, even though she is not enrolled here.
She has been looking forward to being in the audience when her friends
and former classmates will graduate next year. Now she can't step foot
on campus ever again and cannot understand how this could happen. We
have never heard of a community, other than perhaps extreme
fundamentalists, who would abruptly excommunicate an entire family based
on unsubstantiated hearsay.
Thank you to everyone who has called (you possibly violated the
communications protocol by doing so). We truly and deeply found so much
comfort in you reaching out to us. Without your kind words, this would
be almost unbearable.
Until our paths meet again, we wish you many blessings. Your friendship
will never be forgotten.
{Signatures of family}
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 23:07:28 +0000
From: Pete Karaiskos (pkcompany netzero.net)
Subject: RE: More Trouble Brewing at HH
Here's the original letter from Highland Hall that expelled the child
and family - again, after 12 years in the Highland Hall community and
over talking to another parent about an incident involving whether a
water bottle could be made available to their 8-year-old daughter for
drinking:
June 9, 2006
Dear {Parent1} and {Parent2},
This letter is to inform you that your family is being asked to leave
the school, effective immediatley, for failure to comply with the
conditions that were explicitly set forth in a letter sent to you in
june, 2004.
Enclosed please find a copy of the letter that the Highland Hall College
of Teacherts sent to you on Jun(sic) 24, 2004, where we delineated the
expectations you needed to meet in order to continue at Highland Hall.
In the past two weeks, you had an issue with Ms. {Teacher1} regarding
water bottles. Rather than following the communications priotocol
regarding your continued concerns and going to Mr. {Head Administrator}
or the Leadership Team, we have become aware that you have gone to other
parents instead. This breach of the communications protocol has not
shown the descrection and tactfulness we require of you. Your actions
have sought to undermine Ms {Teacher1}s authority, and are not
acceptable in our community. This has created a hostile environment that
cannot be allow to continue.
Please arrange tp pick up {Daughter}'s belongings after classes end Jun
16 by calling Mr. {Head Administrator}. He will schedule a specific time
when you can pick them up from the front office. We ask that you do not
come onto campus without a prearranged meeting time set with Mr. {Head
Administrator}. You may contact {Finance Officer} in the business office
to arrange for a refund of any funds that may be owed to you.
Sincerely,
{Teacher2}
The Leadreship Team
{Teacher3 - Apparently a teacher with an axe to grind who wanted to add
her name to this - not on the leadership or advisory or board or in any
way related to this issue but apparently representing}
The Class Teachers
{Teacher1}
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2f. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:27 pm ((PDT))
)(Do you remember a communal washbowl, Roger?)
)Don't think so. Our school was pretty well endowed: hot water, sinks,
)etc.
The communal washbowl would only be in the nursery and kindergarten, I
think. I'm pretty sure older children are allowed to use the bathrooms
to wash. The concern, as I understood it, in the kindergarten, was not
only the communal experience while washing hands (I guess washing your
hands by yourself is another thing that makes you self-conscious), but
also getting around the problem of the mirrors in the bathroom. Young
children are not supposed to look in mirrors, and there were mirrors in
the bathrooms. When a bathroom trip could not be avoided, we often
accompanied them to prevent them taking the time to look in the mirror.
We actually had stools for the younger children to reach the sinks,
which were too high, and they were not allowed to get the stools
themselves (which stood nearby, not a far distance, and they could
easily manage, but we didn't allow it) - all because that way we could
control how long they spent looking in the mirror.
Oh! That's it. Your school had a building that was actually built as a
Waldorf school - is that right? I bet the communal washbowl is used in
schools that are renting space, and cannot remove the mirrors in the
bathroom.
So that's my real question: were there mirrors in the bathroom, in the
lower grades or nursery?
)But I think I remember (don't hold me to this absolutely) that after
)taking showers (after gym classes), we shared towels.
I suppose I should be horrified, but having a teenage son, I do have to
wonder if they actually wanted you to share towels or if you just *did*
share towels, kind of not caring? My son, for instance, does not seem
able to distinguish between dirty and clean items such as towels,
socks, etc., regardless of where they are stashed (linen closet versus
dirty clothes hamper versus bedroom floor, makes no difference to him).
Diana
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2g. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:30 pm ((PDT))
I wrote:
)Also, the kindergarten teachers consider it one of their main jobs
to
)orchestrate all these little routines.
Roger:
)There's a tremendous emphasis in Athroposophy and Waldorf on
)pattern. Everything has occult meaning. The teachers are supposed to
)be leading the kids through "the divine cosmic plan." Breaking up
)the patterns means violating the intentions of the gods. (!)
Yes, I think that's very pertinent. People often think we're making
this stuff up, but believe me, this is so bizarre you *can't* make it
up. You're very right, I hadn't thought of that. The girl who wanted
to get her own water bottle out of her own cubby was probably causing
a problem because not only are the routines sacred, the *path they
walk* itself often has some kind of occult purpose. For instance,
it's a bad thing for the etheric body, apparently, to walk in a
circle or loop. It's important when children take a walk that they go
a certain distance and then turn back, retracing their steps, not
making a loop.
So the course they walk when they leave to go to the playground, for
instance, and later return, come back in, probably change their
shoes, and maybe then get a drink of water and go to the rug for
circle or story time - if we could see this course charted out we
would likely see that when they get their drink of water, they're
completing a path like this that the teacher considers important. The
cubbies are on the other side of the room, and for the girl to leave
the group to cross the room breaks this important pattern. (Those
details are probably wrong - but it's likely something like this.
This is just one of many small fetishes the teacher is probably
imposing.)
(You can see why this does not make for flexible teachers.)
Diana
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2h. Re: lawsuit against Highland Hall over child's water bottle
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))
Roger quoted Steiner:
)Before the change of teeth, human beings are, in a sense, focused on
)the past...Children live so much in the past and, in many respects,
)reveal, not the physical, but the prenatal, the spirit-soul past.
)After human beings have gone through the change of teeth, they
)actually live constantly in the present...Before puberty it is not
)wise to offer systematized instruction because children have a
)correct inner concept of truth only following puberty." - Rudolf
)Steiner, THE FOUNDATIONS OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE
)(Foundations of Waldorf Education, 1) (Great Barrington, MA:
)Anthroposophic Press, 1996),
Yep, that too.
And one way to avoid "systematized instruction" is to make sure your
instructions or routines don't require verbalization. This is
achieved by making sure everybody is doing the same thing at the same
time, in the same place, every day. Routines and rituals can be
learned by imitation and by the fact that everyone else is doing it.
This is ruined when one person wants or needs to do something that
the group is not doing - like get her water from a different kind of
container, in a different place in the room, from where the group,
the herd, normally gets a drink of water. (It's not surprising then
that that person has to be punished. It's actually nothing personal;
it's just how you enforce group behavior, when you can't use words -
you just throw out the person who won't get with the program -and
naturally without an explanation.)
Diana
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Anthroposophic medicine
Posted by: "donwollie" donwollie yahoo.com donwollie
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))
Do any of you have much experience with anthroposophic medicine?
My sons' mother has been burning through a ton of money on various
homeopathic remedies for the children. I know that I am allergic to
cats and dust. I suspect that at least one of my sons is too, which
is a problem when she has three cats and four rabbits.
Her anthroposphic physician usually suggests rest at home when one of
the boys are sick, but I've found that just getting out of the house
(and away from the cats) usually helps their breathing.
My gut feeling is that the anthroposophic treatments probably aren't
doing any harm, but I'm not sure it is helping much. Thought I'd ask
to see if any of you have anything to share.
Best,
Don
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Anthroposophic medicine
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 1:02 pm ((PDT))
There are several good articles/memoirs on this subject at the PLANS Web site. I also have a
summary essay (tagged "Quack") at my site.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Anthroposophic medicine
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))
Don, you wrote,
)Do any of you have much experience with anthroposophic medicine?
I've been collecting literature on it, and gone to a few lectures.
)My sons' mother has been burning through a ton of money on various
)homeopathic remedies for the children.
Expensive placebos.
)I know that I am allergic to
)cats and dust. I suspect that at least one of my sons is too, which
)is a problem when she has three cats and four rabbits.
)
)Her anthroposphic physician usually suggests rest at home when one of
)the boys are sick, but I've found that just getting out of the house
)(and away from the cats) usually helps their breathing.
)
)My gut feeling is that the anthroposophic treatments probably aren't
)doing any harm, but I'm not sure it is helping much. Thought I'd ask
)to see if any of you have anything to share.
Homeopathic remedies are harmless in themselves, but they do harm in
keeping the sufferer from effective evidence-based medicine and by
wasting time and money.
Therapeutic Eurythmy may be prescribed. It can be effective in
suppressing symptoms and changing behavior--torture is known to be
effective in changing behavior.
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: Anthroposophic medicine
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))
)Do any of you have much experience with anthroposophic medicine?
I agree with Dan generally ("expensive placebos"), but it's an area
where people have had widely different experiences. Yes, generally the
remedies themselves are harmless. Anthroposophic remedies like
homeopathic remedies in general often contain no active ingredients.
The danger, however, is that something serious can be missed and
necessary medical treatment is bypassed. We've heard a couple of fairly
harrowing stories here about anthroposophic treatment failures.
Diana
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
This message is from the new list on Yahoo.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
(*) To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/
(*) Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
(*) To change settings online go to