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There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Theodor
From: petekaraiskos
2.1. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: Os Wilkes
2.2. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: petekaraiskos
2.3. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: Os Wilkes
2.4. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: petekaraiskos
2.5. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: winters_diana
2.6. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: winters_diana
2.7. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: winters_diana
2.8. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: winters_diana
2.9. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: winters_diana
3a. Mail
From: Roger Rawlings
3b. Re: Mail
From: Roger Rawlings
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Theodor
Posted by: "petekaraiskos" pkcompany@netzero.net petekaraiskos
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 7:52 am ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Howell"
wrote:
>
> And the real Dottie did not notice?
You would find that hard to believe? LOL...
Pete
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "petekaraiskos"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 1:43 PM
> Subject: [wc] Theodor
>
>
> > Little does he know, I've been pretending to be "Dottie" for all these
> > years... the goofy little Anthroposophist on his list who swallows
> > Steiner's bullshit hook, line and sinker. Ha... the joke's on Tarjei.
> >
> > Pete
> >
>
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "Os Wilkes" oswilkes@netptc.net oswald_wilkes
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 7:58 am ((PDT))
>>I think Diana is right. Straume's recent messages to his
>>anthroposophy_tomorrow list come from the same address block,
>>controlled by the Norwegian ISP get.no, as those of his alter-egos'
>>recent posts to this list. Pitiful.
>
>>Yes, you're quite right. Now I'm (semi-)convinced. I must've looked at
>>wrong message or something, I never seem to get that right. Norwegian
>>trawlers in our waters...
>
>There isn't any question I'm right, it has been openly discussed on AT.
>No I don't plan to spend 30 seconds "proving" it - go to the AT
>archives if you don't believe me. He invents characters that argue with
>each other and pretend to be out to get each other - "sheriffs" who are
>still after him for pot smoking and "hit men" (check out Os's yahoo
>profile, if you don't mind wandering into the "adult" area, that is),
>this is just these immature idiots' idea of a good time.
>
>Come on Dan -ditch these people.
>Diana
>
Dear Diana,
Dan invited me to join this group. He didn't have any problem with my
netiquette on the Topica board.
Look at the date on my profile. I created this profile to use in a role
play board based on the TV show "Push Nevada". Oswald Wilkes was a gay,
nutty hitman in that show- a very small character who was killed off
early. That is why I took that role, it had great possibilities. I was
also about seven other people on role plays. I use this as a PSEUDONYM.
Nobody is fooled. It is tantamount to a form of insanity to put
identifying information on a public profile if you want your privacy
especially if you generate animus from fanatic cult adherents because of
what you write, which I do.
I post regularly on other boards including
and where another member of this board
KEITH participates. Keith is a good person but we have argued about
Anthroposophy and those arguments are on Uforia. I have known Keith for
a couple of years or so, and I am certain he does not think I am from
NORWAY. Look at my IP, please. It originates from Central California.
I use a nom de plume because I have been cyberstalked by SCIENTOLOGISTS
and people participating in another cult OTO. Before going to a
pseudonym, I used my real name. I have been subjected to physical
threats, my home has been broken into, my pets killed, I have been run
off the road, I have been forced to move hundreds of miles away from the
Los Angeles area- all because of my outspoken behaviour using my real
name while opening up my mouth against cult generated scams.
I think you should respect people who do not want to reveal their
identities to the disordered fanatics who lack any moral compass- such as
the ones you are complaining about who post on these boards
I do not like Anthroposophy. I do not like trolling. I do not like
Uncle Taz. I am not one of his sockpuppets, and I want them banned just
as much as you do.
BTW- that is a picture of me dressing up for the role play board. My
friend Smitty also dressed up. We had a lot of fun, probably the most
fun I have had in years. I can't do much these days but imagine, since I
am unwell and injured. Google my name and see what kind of person I am.
I may be a jerk myself, but I resent being lumped in with cult apologist
jerks. Please place me in the proper jerk category, and we could be
great cyber friends someday.
Love,
Os
Messages in this topic (40)
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2.2. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "petekaraiskos" pkcompany@netzero.net petekaraiskos
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 8:11 am ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Os Wilkes" wrote:
>
> >>I think Diana is right. Straume's recent messages to his
> >>anthroposophy_tomorrow list come from the same address block,
> >>controlled by the Norwegian ISP get.no, as those of his alter-egos'
> >>recent posts to this list. Pitiful.
> >
> >>Yes, you're quite right. Now I'm (semi-)convinced. I must've looked at
> >>wrong message or something, I never seem to get that right. Norwegian
> >>trawlers in our waters...
> >
> >There isn't any question I'm right, it has been openly discussed on
AT.
> >No I don't plan to spend 30 seconds "proving" it - go to the AT
> >archives if you don't believe me. He invents characters that argue
with
> >each other and pretend to be out to get each other - "sheriffs" who
are
> >still after him for pot smoking and "hit men" (check out Os's yahoo
> >profile, if you don't mind wandering into the "adult" area, that is),
> >this is just these immature idiots' idea of a good time.
> >
> >Come on Dan -ditch these people.
> >Diana
> >
>
>
> Dear Diana,
>
> Dan invited me to join this group. He didn't have any problem with my
> netiquette on the Topica board.
>
> Look at the date on my profile. I created this profile to use in a role
> play board based on the TV show "Push Nevada". Oswald Wilkes was a gay,
> nutty hitman in that show- a very small character who was killed off
> early. That is why I took that role, it had great possibilities. I was
> also about seven other people on role plays. I use this as a PSEUDONYM.
> Nobody is fooled. It is tantamount to a form of insanity to put
> identifying information on a public profile if you want your privacy
> especially if you generate animus from fanatic cult adherents because of
> what you write, which I do.
>
> I post regularly on other boards including
> and where another member of this board
> KEITH participates. Keith is a good person but we have argued about
> Anthroposophy and those arguments are on Uforia. I have known Keith for
> a couple of years or so, and I am certain he does not think I am from
> NORWAY. Look at my IP, please. It originates from Central
California.
>
> I use a nom de plume because I have been cyberstalked by SCIENTOLOGISTS
> and people participating in another cult OTO. Before going to a
> pseudonym, I used my real name. I have been subjected to physical
> threats, my home has been broken into, my pets killed, I have been run
> off the road, I have been forced to move hundreds of miles away from the
> Los Angeles area- all because of my outspoken behaviour using my real
> name while opening up my mouth against cult generated scams.
>
> I think you should respect people who do not want to reveal their
> identities to the disordered fanatics who lack any moral compass-
such as
> the ones you are complaining about who post on these boards
>
> I do not like Anthroposophy. I do not like trolling. I do not like
> Uncle Taz. I am not one of his sockpuppets, and I want them banned just
> as much as you do.
>
> BTW- that is a picture of me dressing up for the role play board. My
> friend Smitty also dressed up. We had a lot of fun, probably the most
> fun I have had in years. I can't do much these days but imagine,
since I
> am unwell and injured. Google my name and see what kind of person I am.
> I may be a jerk myself, but I resent being lumped in with cult
apologist
> jerks. Please place me in the proper jerk category, and we could be
> great cyber friends someday.
>
>
> Love,
>
> Os
>
Yeah, nice profile... Next!
Pete
Messages in this topic (40)
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2.3. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "Os Wilkes" oswilkes@netptc.net oswald_wilkes
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))
>
>Yeah, nice profile... Next!
>
>Pete
Well, it seems that you don't like my profile, if I read your statement
properly. Why don't you complain to the admin instead of making an issue
of it on the board? That would be proper netiquette. Complaining about
it on the board is disruptive.
As I said before, I received the invitation to join this group from DAN.
I am certain that Dan would wish to avoid inviting known trolls and
troublemakers and that he vetted me before inviting me. I did not even
know this board existed except for the invitation. My first post here
was helpful & informative, I thought. What is helpful or informative
about this post to which I am responding?
In the meantime, I would like to draw YOUR attention to the fact that my
profile is NOT on topic of this board except in as much as it is being
used as an innuendo to lump me in with a trolling expedition by Diana who
has JUMPED to an erroneous conclusion. I hope this ends the discussion
on my profile, and I hope you and everyone else who think that I am with
Uncle Taz check my IP addy and look into my posting history on other
boards by googling my names oswald wilkes and os wilkes. I am a member
of multiple boards of all types and have never had my profile questioned
by any admin or board member before. My profile is not accessible to
anyone under 18, and I expect that you and any other ADULT on this board
who views it will perceive it as being as ludicrous and amusing as it
appears to me. Certainly it is within the ToS of Yahoo! Groups. Since I
quit role playing on designated role playing venues, I only post in one
identity and that is what should matter, not what appears on my profile.
Unless the admin is going to make an issue of profiles, it should not be
discussed here. I noticed you are not discussing Uncle Taz's profiles,
which would be on topic since he is accused of installing sockpuppets on
this board with the intent to disrupt it.
Maybe y'all want to run actual cult critics like me off this board by
making issues out of things that shouldn't be issues and taking the
attention off the troll-fest that is happening here-
-which is a trolling tactic in and of itself.
Love,
Os
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
2.4. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "petekaraiskos" pkcompany@netzero.net petekaraiskos
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 3:06 pm ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Os Wilkes" wrote:
>
> >
> >Yeah, nice profile... Next!
> >
> >Pete
>
> Well, it seems that you don't like my profile, if I read your statement
> properly. Why don't you complain to the admin instead of making an
issue
> of it on the board?
Why would that be more appropriate? I'm sure other groups would find
your profile absolutely stimulating. Don't change it on my account...
> That would be proper netiquette. Complaining about
> it on the board is disruptive.
No, the discussion here is "Recent troll IPs" - I'm not only on topic,
but I'm apparently pretty accurate in my assessment. How you wish to
represent yourself on the internet is your business. Whether you
belong in this group is a completely separate question.
> As I said before, I received the invitation to join this group from DAN.
> I am certain that Dan would wish to avoid inviting known trolls and
> troublemakers and that he vetted me before inviting me.
It's more likely, as Diana suggested, that a blanket invitation went
out which disturbed a lot of silt that has brought some old trolls
back from the dead.
> I did not even
> know this board existed except for the invitation. My first post here
> was helpful & informative, I thought. What is helpful or informative
> about this post to which I am responding?
You can consider my post part of an opinion poll - about the very
topic of recent troll IP's (the topic under discussion).
> In the meantime, I would like to draw YOUR attention to the fact that my
> profile is NOT on topic of this board except in as much as it is being
> used as an innuendo to lump me in with a trolling expedition by
Diana who
> has JUMPED to an erroneous conclusion.
Well, it's always good to know who we are inviting to our discussions.
Indeed, you may have arrived at an unfortunate time when Tarjei and
other trolls perhaps were having their feeding frenzy. Nonetheless,
your profile is somewhat... how shall I say this... bizarre and that,
in and of itself, renders anything you say rather pointless for me.
> I hope this ends the discussion
> on my profile, and I hope you and everyone else who think that I am with
> Uncle Taz check my IP addy and look into my posting history on other
> boards by googling my names oswald wilkes and os wilkes.
Yes, I'll just run over and do that as soon as I'm done cleaning out
my hall closet. Oswald Wilkes... Hmmmm I hope I don't have trouble
remembering that name...
> I am a member
> of multiple boards of all types and have never had my profile questioned
> by any admin or board member before.
> My profile is not accessible to
> anyone under 18, and I expect that you and any other ADULT on this board
> who views it will perceive it as being as ludicrous and amusing as it
> appears to me. Certainly it is within the ToS of Yahoo! Groups.
I don't know if I can adequately express to you the full extent to
which I am uninterested in any of that.
> Since I
> quit role playing on designated role playing venues, I only post in one
> identity and that is what should matter, not what appears on my profile.
> Unless the admin is going to make an issue of profiles, it should
not be
> discussed here.
It's not that I'm not up to the reasonably difficult challenge of
taking you seriously, but I'm really not interested in doing so.
Thanks though - for choosing this as your next roll-playing venue.
> I noticed you are not discussing Uncle Taz's profiles,
> which would be on topic since he is accused of installing sockpuppets on
> this board with the intent to disrupt it.
How is he behaving any different than you?
> Maybe y'all want to run actual cult critics like me off this board by
> making issues out of things that shouldn't be issues and taking the
> attention off the troll-fest that is happening here-
>
> -which is a trolling tactic in and of itself.
I'm pretty sure we don't need no steenking cult critics here. But it's
not up to me to decide... I'm just weighing in. Personally, I don't
see anything of value here from you. The information on this list is
very specific and the ideas about Waldorf as a cult are applied very
carefully... If you're serious about posting here, you may consider
taking off your mask and putting your assault weapon on semi-auto.
Pete
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
2.5. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 6:46 pm ((PDT))
Os, if it's as you say, then I've misjudged you, and I apologize.
May I ask why you have been signing your posts "Love"? I think most
people who were sincere would realize that was all wrong, and make
you appear to be just hassling us.
Diana
>Dan invited me to join this group. He didn't have any problem with
>my netiquette on the Topica board.
>Look at the date on my profile. I created this profile to use in a
>role play board based on the TV show "Push Nevada". Oswald Wilkes
>was a gay, nutty hitman in that show- a very small character who was
>killed off early. That is why I took that role, it had great
>possibilities. I was also about seven other people on role plays.
>I use this as a PSEUDONYM.
>Nobody is fooled. It is tantamount to a form of insanity to put
>identifying information on a public profile if you want your privacy
>especially if you generate animus from fanatic cult adherents
>because of what you write, which I do.
>I post regularly on other boards including
>http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb>
>and where another member of this
>board KEITH participates. Keith is a good person but we have argued
>about Anthroposophy and those arguments are on Uforia. I have known
>Keith for a couple of years or so, and I am certain he does not
>think I am from NORWAY. Look at my IP, please. It originates from
>Central California.
>I use a nom de plume because I have been cyberstalked by
>SCIENTOLOGISTS and people participating in another cult OTO. Before
>going to a pseudonym, I used my real name. I have been subjected to
>physical threats, my home has been broken into, my pets killed, I
>have been run off the road, I have been forced to move hundreds of
>miles away from the Los Angeles area- all because of my outspoken
>behaviour using my real name while opening up my mouth against cult
>generated scams.
>I think you should respect people who do not want to reveal their
>identities to the disordered fanatics who lack any moral compass-
>such as the ones you are complaining about who post on these boards
>I do not like Anthroposophy. I do not like trolling. I do not like
>Uncle Taz. I am not one of his sockpuppets, and I want them banned
>just as much as you do.
>BTW- that is a picture of me dressing up for the role play board. My
>friend Smitty also dressed up. We had a lot of fun, probably the
>most fun I have had in years. I can't do much these days but
>imagine, since I am unwell and injured. Google my name and see what
>kind of person I am. I may be a jerk myself, but I resent being
>lumped in with cult apologist jerks. Please place me in the proper
>jerk category, and we could be great cyber friends someday.
>Love,
>Os
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
2.6. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 6:52 pm ((PDT))
It doesn't all add up, Os. First you said Dan had no problem with
your behavior on the topica board. Now you say you didn't know this
board existed before Dan invited you. BTW, I don't think Dan "vets"
anybody before they join, anybody can join unless he knows they're
someone he's previously banned.
Then you say we should google you if we want to know who you are. We
can't google you if you aren't using your real name.
Again I apologize if I've got you all wrong. Maybe start posting
something as to your actual interest in Waldorf or anthroposophy and
if you're sincere we will all quickly realize that.
I think I recall an Oz posting here briefly once before, are you the
same person? The person I recall had very strongly negative opinions
about anthroposophy and I believe I challenged this person at the
time.
>My profile is not accessible to anyone under 18,
You're mistaken about that.
Diana
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
2.7. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 7:21 pm ((PDT))
Os, So is this you I guess?
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/archives/WCA0509.html
(full post below)
I see you were signing "Love" then too so perhaps I just overreacted
to this. (It's, um, inappropriate.)
At the time I replied to this with some skepticism that "total
destruction of the planet" is a useful way to summarize
anthroposophical ambitions.
So this sort of thing coming just when Tarjei et al. showed up to
send a flurry of hoax posts meant to make the critics look like
loons, as if we constantly allege outrageous things, Waldorf children
locked in basements etc., well, this appears of the same ilk to me,
or at least questionable.
I found several other things in that post somewhat off, such as your
references to a Steiner site that refers to an "imperative to
recruit" questionable. What Steiner site suggests an imperative to
recruit?
I'll break this in half as there's more.
Os wrote in 2005:
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:52:06 +0000
From: Os Wilkes (oswald_wilkes yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: *** SPAM *** RE: The popularity of Waldorf schools -
QUESTION FOR PE
Paul Georghiades wrote:
) ) I suppose this saga can end with mutual disdain, "the indignant
prince
) ) and princess rode off into the sunset having no idea what had
transpired
) )
) ) nor what anyone else had said."
)
) I don't know how to make it more clear to you. It's about honesty.
)
) Pete
Hi,
I have been lurking on this list for a long time. I have been
studying
the conversations here, and the tactics employed by the "defenders"
of
Steiner. I am going to call a spade a spade because I am NOT a
polite
person.
Pete, I have studied Anthroposphy only briefly, but have found a
number
of references to the necessity for people to toss out morality as we
know it in order to become spiritually superior. So why would
anybody
expect honesty from a follower of Steiner? Or any kind of fair
dealings
*our* concept of morality requires?
I have visited the Steiner site, and have seen a number of references
to
their imperative to recruit. If you study Steiner enough to see
where
his lessons slowly lead, you will understand that he is not teaching
a
science or a philosophy, but is teaching a polytheistic pagan
religion
that is in many ways congruent to satansim (which is inherently
destructive). Anthroposophy's ultimate goal is to destroy this
planet
and everyone on it to free their spirits to live on Jupiter. Blacks
need not apply because by scientific spiritual fact, their skins
being
black prevent them from having the spiritual superiority needed to
make
the cut. The rest of the coloureds and people who are not
Anthroposophists have to live in coarser, grosser strata depending on
their spiritual advancement. Did I get any of that wrong?
Now, a satanist would just stand up and applaud a school for tiny
kids
to indoctrinate them into that mindset, a school which also teaches
them
how to apply principals of black magick. And they probably have
schools
like that for themselves. But since the total destruction of the
planet
involves indoctrinating MULTITUDES into the mindset, they have to
CONVERT PEOPLE. And as we know, MOST Americans would NOT want to
destroy the world, they DO NOT believe Lucifer is Mr. Nice Guy, and
they
don't believe that Jesus was just a vessel for Osiris to manifest in
for
three years in order to fulfill an ancient, recurring polytheistic
pagan
ritual.
So, you cannot tell people that this is what you are about UP FRONT.
Because they would REJECT IT OUT OF HAND. Except for the people who
already believe it.
But your goal is to gain CONVERTS. How are you to do that if your
religion will be rejected?
Well, you could employ a "bait and switch" con on the unsuspecting
folks.
1) If you want to convert Christians, tell them your philosophy
holds
Christ up as a figurehead.
2) If you want to convert people who value the Earth and all the
lifeforms on it, tell them that you yourself honour Nature.
3) If you want to convert those who are trying to instill
affirmation
of life into their children and independence, tell them that those
are
your goals.
4) If you want to convert logical people, tell them Anthroposophy is
a
science.
5) If you want to convert the artistic types, tell them their
children
will be taught to become in tune with their inner creativity.
Whatever you do, DO NOT TELL THE POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS:
1) That Jesus was a Monotheistic Jew who did not believe in Ancient
Gods
like Osiris and Isis and as such could not have manifested true
spiritual superiority in and of himself. That he didn't have the
maximum amount of pure spirit because he wasn't pure white, and that
he
was just a convenient body for Osiris to manifest in. That later in
the
teachings, Lucifer will be held up to be the true friend of mankind.
2) That for you to fulfil the doctrine of Anthroposophy, you must
wish
for the destruction of the planet and all life on it, which is
diametrically opposed to environmentalism.
3) That Anthroposophy promotes an apocalyptic vision which is not
life
affirming. It seeks to indoctrinate people into an "us and them"
warfare mentality, while slowly robbing the adherant of independence
and
the ability to think critically. It employs TRANCE INDUCING
EXERCISES
to heighten suggestibility in the partipants.
4) That application of faith is required to make the "science"
work.
Of course, if the adherent experiences effects, he is not likely to
attribute them to the self hypnosis, trance induction, and constant
suggestions he has been subjected to. He is likely to experience it
as
a Phenomenon which Proves that the Science is Effective.
5) That their children's creativity will be channeled into rigid
trance
inducing exercises while their individuality is quashed.
Now, with the Waldorf Schools, they are NOT upfront about the pagan
religious training which is surreptitiously injected into the
curriculum. They are not upfront about the techniques they employ to
entrance children and keep them in a suggestible state. If they
were,
Christian folk would not send their kids there.
So, they call it something else. They invent their own use of words,
very much like Scientology does. Oddly, I find Anthroposophy and
Scientology very congruent. I would suggest that people wishing to
understand why Waldorf and Biodynamics aren't honestly represented
potential customers to google Scientology and see how many businesses
they have as fronts for indoctrination. Waldorf is to Anthroposophy
what Delphi Academy is to Scientology.
Waldorf behaves as a CULT. You should all google articles on how to
recognize a cult.
They separate the "invested" maleable believers from the outside
world
as much as they can. They foster an "us and them" mentality. They
engulf the clients in an entire segregated social system, and they
create a painful exit cost. They deflect reasonable concerns, and
unless you are 100% on, you are a potential trouble source and are
treated as such. They don't want their membership to seek outside
health or mental health services, or any outside validation for their
concerns. They want to keep you IN as long as they can.
That is why you have Anthroposophists BABYSITTING this message board,
disrupting the discussions by baiting you all into tangential
arguments.
Whenever they pop up, whatever you were trying to discuss gets lost
in
a barrage of back and forth as they put words in your mouth, bait you
into responding, harass you, and subtly change the subject OFF your
concerns and ONTO THEM. The net result is that people who visit this
list are unable to examine your LEGITIMATE CONCERNS through the FLAK
BARRAGE.
These trolls PURPOSEFULLY AVOID answering directly to any allegation
you
bring up and skew the conversation AWAY from any DISCOVERY. They are
not interested in achieving a meeting of the minds. They have NO
INTENTION of doing anything other than destroy YOUR ABILITY to
discuss
Waldorf Schools honestly amongst yourselves.
And yet, some of you bother to address their trolls as if they were
HONESTLY trying to COMMUNICATE with any of you. THEY ARE NOT. It is
very obvious they do not have the goal of communication. They have
the
goal of INFORMATION CONTROL.
They are so very afraid of the truth getting out, that they have to
do
this. And the REASON they are afraid is that NOBODY WOULD ENROLL
THEIR
KIDS IN A WALDORF SCHOOL IF THEY KNEW THE TRUTH.
I didn't mean to barge in here and pee in the punchbowl. But I just
can't stand to see what is happening here because I believe that the
aggrieved Waldorf partipants have LEGITIMATE CONCERNS that PEOPLE
SHOULD
BE MADE AWARE OF BEFORE THEY SEND THEIR KIDS IN TO THOSE SCHOOLS.
The
people trolling this board have their OWN boards to disinform people
on.
And they are doing that by misrepresenting what is being said HERE.
They will scream "INFORMATION CONTROL!!!" if you ban them from this
list
for trolling, and that is OK with me and other people who understand
what they are about. The problem is, if you let them take up
residence
here, you will have much less ability to deal with the issues you
came
here to deal with as you are basically being forced into NON
CONVERSATIONS with THEM.
So, I hope you seriously consider creating or maintaining some venue
where you all can publically address your concerns where you can
actually work on stuff without being waylaid by people who feel they
must "DEFEND STEINER".
My opinion is that if what he said were TRUE it would stand without
having to be defended. If what Waldorf were doing was HONEST, this
board would not exist. It needs to exist, it really does. What you
are
doing would be much more effective if trolling were not allowed. I
think sometimes trolls seem to be sincere, and you want to give them
the
benefit of the doubt. But time reveals them: the dead giveaways are
that they do NOT specifically address your concerns, especially the
one
about Waldorf being MISREPRESENTED to POTENTIAL CLIENTS, they
deflect,
they continue to escalate conflict, and they have the uncanny ability
to
cause you to digress into tangents.
Love,
Os
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
2.8. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 7:33 pm ((PDT))
So I guess I'm following Peter's advice that it's never too late to
revive old topics :)
Os, you wrote here in 2005 (and correct me if I'm mistaken but I
think you went away after I sent a reply challenging a number of
things in this post) - so now's your chance to follow up.
>If you study Steiner enough to see where his lessons slowly lead,
>you will understand that he is not teaching a science or a
>philosophy, but is teaching a polytheistic pagan religion
>that is in many ways congruent to satansim (which is inherently
>destructive). Anthroposophy's ultimate goal is to destroy this
>planet and everyone on it to free their spirits to live on Jupiter.
It's this kind of ridiculous statement that makes serious critics
smell a rat.
>Blacks need not apply because by scientific spiritual fact, their
>skins being black prevent them from having the spiritual superiority
>needed to make the cut. The rest of the coloureds and people who
>are not Anthroposophists have to live in coarser, grosser strata
>depending on their spiritual advancement. Did I get any of that
>wrong?
Yeah. Far be it from me to defend Steiner's racial doctrines, but
yes, you've got that wrong. There is nothing I'm aware of in Steiner
that suggests because someone's skin is black, they can't reincarnate
some day on Jupiter (or wherever). In anthroposophy future planetary
incarnations are many eons away for all of us, and we all alternate
skin colors in various incarnations. Someone who's black in this
lifetime may be white next time etc.
There's plenty to criticize in Steiner's racial doctrines - it isn't
necessary or useful to exaggerate. It's a problem to suggest black
skin reflects spiritual inferiority in *any* lifetime.
There's more, some stuff I agree with and some I don't but that'll
have to do for tonight.
Diana
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
2.9. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 7:37 pm ((PDT))
I wrote:
>It doesn't all add up, Os. First you said Dan had no problem with
>your behavior on the topica board. Now you say you didn't know this
>board existed before Dan invited you.
Oh, I see - you think this is a different board, because you just got
an invitation to join. What's happened is the list has *moved* here,
Os. Dan probably sent the invitation to anyone who'd ever been on the
topica list.
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Mail
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))
Hello, all.
I have written a few private messages to some of you since I ended (more or less÷I'm weak)
my participation in the list. But now I find that Yahoo mail does not support my server. I
assume this means my messages got to you but any replies you may have sent will not reach
me via Yahoo. So if you wish to reply to me, please use my regular, anti-intuitive email
address: iankilburn@bellsouth.net.
My best to all.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Mail
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog@yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 1:37 pm ((PDT))
What the h? Is Yahoo blocking non-Yahoo addresses? Quick: iankilburn@bellsouth.net. If this,
too, gets blocked, Dan (who has nothing else to do with his time) can give my address to my
friends.
--Roger
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
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There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: kmlightseeker
1.2. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: kmlightseeker
1.3. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: petekaraiskos
1.4. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: winters_diana
2.1. Admin: Re: [wc] Recent troll IPs
From: Dan Dugan
2.2. Re: Admin: Re: [wc] Recent troll IPs
From: Os Wilkes
2.3. Admin: Re: [wc] Recent troll IPs
From: petekaraiskos
2.4. Admin: Re: [wc] Recent troll IPs
From: winters_diana
3a. You Know This Word
From: eyelean5280
3b. Re: You Know This Word
From: petekaraiskos
3c. Re: You Know This Word
From: petekaraiskos
3d. Re: You Know This Word
From: winters_diana
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "kmlightseeker" kmlightseeker@yahoo.com.au kmlightseeker
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 9:22 am ((PDT))
Hi Os!
Diana, I can vouch for what Os has said below as being consistent with
what he has told me or that I have read in his discussions with other
contributers. And it seems to me that he really is serious about cult
issues, so I think he can offer some serious psychological input into
the Waldorf discussion.
Regards,
Keith
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Os Wilkes" wrote:
>
> >>I think Diana is right. Straume's recent messages to his
> >>anthroposophy_tomorrow list come from the same address block,
> >>controlled by the Norwegian ISP get.no, as those of his alter-egos'
> >>recent posts to this list. Pitiful.
> >
> >>Yes, you're quite right. Now I'm (semi-)convinced. I must've looked at
> >>wrong message or something, I never seem to get that right. Norwegian
> >>trawlers in our waters...
> >
> >There isn't any question I'm right, it has been openly discussed on
AT.
> >No I don't plan to spend 30 seconds "proving" it - go to the AT
> >archives if you don't believe me. He invents characters that argue
with
> >each other and pretend to be out to get each other - "sheriffs" who
are
> >still after him for pot smoking and "hit men" (check out Os's yahoo
> >profile, if you don't mind wandering into the "adult" area, that is),
> >this is just these immature idiots' idea of a good time.
> >
> >Come on Dan -ditch these people.
> >Diana
> >
>
>
> Dear Diana,
>
> Dan invited me to join this group. He didn't have any problem with my
> netiquette on the Topica board.
>
> Look at the date on my profile. I created this profile to use in a role
> play board based on the TV show "Push Nevada". Oswald Wilkes was a gay,
> nutty hitman in that show- a very small character who was killed off
> early. That is why I took that role, it had great possibilities. I was
> also about seven other people on role plays. I use this as a PSEUDONYM.
> Nobody is fooled. It is tantamount to a form of insanity to put
> identifying information on a public profile if you want your privacy
> especially if you generate animus from fanatic cult adherents because of
> what you write, which I do.
>
> I post regularly on other boards including
> and where another member of this board
> KEITH participates. Keith is a good person but we have argued about
> Anthroposophy and those arguments are on Uforia. I have known Keith for
> a couple of years or so, and I am certain he does not think I am from
> NORWAY. Look at my IP, please. It originates from Central
California.
>
> I use a nom de plume because I have been cyberstalked by SCIENTOLOGISTS
> and people participating in another cult OTO. Before going to a
> pseudonym, I used my real name. I have been subjected to physical
> threats, my home has been broken into, my pets killed, I have been run
> off the road, I have been forced to move hundreds of miles away from the
> Los Angeles area- all because of my outspoken behaviour using my real
> name while opening up my mouth against cult generated scams.
>
> I think you should respect people who do not want to reveal their
> identities to the disordered fanatics who lack any moral compass-
such as
> the ones you are complaining about who post on these boards
>
> I do not like Anthroposophy. I do not like trolling. I do not like
> Uncle Taz. I am not one of his sockpuppets, and I want them banned just
> as much as you do.
>
> BTW- that is a picture of me dressing up for the role play board. My
> friend Smitty also dressed up. We had a lot of fun, probably the most
> fun I have had in years. I can't do much these days but imagine,
since I
> am unwell and injured. Google my name and see what kind of person I am.
> I may be a jerk myself, but I resent being lumped in with cult
apologist
> jerks. Please place me in the proper jerk category, and we could be
> great cyber friends someday.
>
>
> Love,
>
> Os
>
Messages in this topic (48)
________________________________________________________________________
1.2. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "kmlightseeker" kmlightseeker@yahoo.com.au kmlightseeker
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 9:49 am ((PDT))
Hi Pete,
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "petekaraiskos"
wrote:
>
[Os:]
> > Maybe y'all want to run actual cult critics like me off this board by
> > making issues out of things that shouldn't be issues and taking the
> > attention off the troll-fest that is happening here-
> >
> > -which is a trolling tactic in and of itself.
> [Pete:]
> I'm pretty sure we don't need no steenking cult critics here. But it's
> not up to me to decide... I'm just weighing in. Personally, I don't
> see anything of value here from you. The information on this list is
> very specific and the ideas about Waldorf as a cult are applied very
> carefully...
And much of it concerns psychology and communication styles, as well
as cultural patterns. The general attributes of cult groups are worth
considering always, whether we are talking about children (students)
or adults or both, or schools or homes or churches or whatever. So,
Waldorf teachers are socialised into Anthroposophical themes if not
outrightly instructed in the Anthroposophical philosophy, and students
are influenced similarly in turn by the teaching and encouraging of
beliefs and feelings that are harmonious with the aims of
Anthroposophy. Indoctrination occurs in all school social settings -
students are taught to trust and obey authority and authority figures,
whether or not such figures or institutions are worthy of such respect
and attention (as concepts and as role models).
Regards,
Keith
If you're serious about posting here, you may consider
> taking off your mask and putting your assault weapon on semi-auto.
>
> Pete
>
Messages in this topic (48)
________________________________________________________________________
1.3. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "petekaraiskos" pkcompany@netzero.net petekaraiskos
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 11:21 am ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "kmlightseeker"
wrote:
>
> Hi Pete,
>
>
> --- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "petekaraiskos"
> wrote:
> >
>
>
>
> [Os:]
> > > Maybe y'all want to run actual cult critics like me off this
board by
> > > making issues out of things that shouldn't be issues and taking the
> > > attention off the troll-fest that is happening here-
> > >
> > > -which is a trolling tactic in and of itself.
> > [Pete:]
> > I'm pretty sure we don't need no steenking cult critics here. But it's
> > not up to me to decide... I'm just weighing in. Personally, I don't
> > see anything of value here from you. The information on this list is
> > very specific and the ideas about Waldorf as a cult are applied very
> > carefully...
>
>
> And much of it concerns psychology and communication styles, as well
> as cultural patterns. The general attributes of cult groups are worth
> considering always, whether we are talking about children (students)
> or adults or both, or schools or homes or churches or whatever.
This is, of course, important Keith. What is not of value is going
overboard, as OS has done, describing things that are blown out of
proportion. It causes the entire list to lose credibility when
someone perhaps unfamiliar with the nuances of Waldorf/Anthroposophy
starts painting with a broad brush. To the man with a hammer,
everything becomes a nail.
> So,
> Waldorf teachers are socialised into Anthroposophical themes if not
> outrightly instructed in the Anthroposophical philosophy, and students
> are influenced similarly in turn by the teaching and encouraging of
> beliefs and feelings that are harmonious with the aims of
> Anthroposophy. Indoctrination occurs in all school social settings -
> students are taught to trust and obey authority and authority figures,
> whether or not such figures or institutions are worthy of such respect
> and attention (as concepts and as role models).
Yes that is common to other non-cult settings. This is the kind of
thing that people will find suspect in our discussions if we apply the
"cult" word to Waldorf without caution. Attention to what is
distinctive about Anthroposophy or Waldorf - what distinguishes it
from, say, public schools, or other religious schools - that's what's
of value and requires careful study.
Pete
Messages in this topic (48)
________________________________________________________________________
1.4. Re: Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 7:18 pm ((PDT))
Keith:
>Diana, I can vouch for what Os has said below as being consistent with
>what he has told me or that I have read in his discussions with other
>contributers.
This lacks credibility, Keith, since you're over on AT congratulating
Tarjei on his clever games here.
Diana
Messages in this topic (48)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Admin: Re: [wc] Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan@dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 9:45 am ((PDT))
Os Wilkes, you wrote,
>As I said before, I received the invitation to join this group from DAN.
I sent invitations to everyone subscribed to the list on Topica.
Nothing personal.
> I am certain that Dan would wish to avoid inviting known trolls and
>troublemakers and that he vetted me before inviting me.
No one is vetted here; it's an open public discussion group.
>I did not even
>know this board existed except for the invitation.
That doesn't make sense. Perhaps you were subscribed to the Topica
list at one time, turned off email, and forgot that your subscription
was still there.
-Dan Dugan, Moderator
Messages in this topic (48)
________________________________________________________________________
2.2. Re: Admin: Re: [wc] Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "Os Wilkes" oswilkes@netptc.net oswald_wilkes
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 12:19 pm ((PDT))
>Os Wilkes, you wrote,
>>I did not even
>>know this board existed except for the invitation.
>
>That doesn't make sense. Perhaps you were subscribed to the Topica
>list at one time, turned off email, and forgot that your subscription
>was still there.
>
>-Dan Dugan, Moderator
Dear Dan,
It makes sense to me. I was a member of the Topica board. I did turn
off the email. I am a member of a multitude of boards and cannot handle
the volume anymore. I am sick and only visit boards irregularly
nowadays. That is why I did not know of the existence of this board
until I received your invitation. I have always enjoyed your board
except for the trolling.
I ASSUMED that you came to Yahoo! Groups because they are very efficient
about "socking it to" sockpuppet violators.
I also ASSUMED that you vetted the people you invited.
My friend and I run various Yahoo boards and we vet the invitees.
Trolling is very disruptive. You can see how much inane conversation has
been generated about my Yahoo ID. Making issues of people's ID and
Avatars is a cultic tactic to derail discussion. The discussion about my
ID has displaced discussions we may have engaged in regarding Waldorf and
Anthroposophy tactics- one of which tactics my first post addressed:
sockpuppet violations of the Yahoo! Boards Terms of Service. People were
posting that they wanted Uncle Taz's sockpuppets off the board, and I
gave this board a suggestion as to how to accomplish that.
I will reiterate that my first post was about the IP addresses of Klaus
and Ted being one and the same originating from Oslo. This is good
enough to get these two IDs banned from Yahoo! Groups. I know because we
have had people's IDs banned for disrupting our boards. I'll be damned
if this tidbit of good and useful information wasn't met with total
disregard and a personal ad hom directed at me from Diana (which is
forbidden by your own masthead as one of the two rules of engagement).
And this ad hom was jumped on by Pete who decided to continue to make my
ID a topic of discussion rather than address anything having to do with
my post, Uncle Taz's violations of the ToS, Anthroposophy or Waldorf.
Of course, new people to this board would look at this kind of BS and
decide not to join or participate, because no real information is being
provided as THIS discussion dominating the first page.
Love,
Os
Messages in this topic (48)
________________________________________________________________________
2.3. Admin: Re: [wc] Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "petekaraiskos" pkcompany@netzero.net petekaraiskos
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 12:34 pm ((PDT))
The topic was Trolls... I addressed that topic. Nothing more needs to
be said.
Pete
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Os Wilkes" wrote:
>
> >Os Wilkes, you wrote,
>
> >>I did not even
> >>know this board existed except for the invitation.
> >
> >That doesn't make sense. Perhaps you were subscribed to the Topica
> >list at one time, turned off email, and forgot that your subscription
> >was still there.
> >
> >-Dan Dugan, Moderator
>
> Dear Dan,
>
> It makes sense to me. I was a member of the Topica board. I did turn
> off the email. I am a member of a multitude of boards and cannot handle
> the volume anymore. I am sick and only visit boards irregularly
> nowadays. That is why I did not know of the existence of this board
> until I received your invitation. I have always enjoyed your board
> except for the trolling.
>
> I ASSUMED that you came to Yahoo! Groups because they are very efficient
> about "socking it to" sockpuppet violators.
>
> I also ASSUMED that you vetted the people you invited.
>
> My friend and I run various Yahoo boards and we vet the invitees.
> Trolling is very disruptive. You can see how much inane
conversation has
> been generated about my Yahoo ID. Making issues of people's ID and
> Avatars is a cultic tactic to derail discussion. The discussion
about my
> ID has displaced discussions we may have engaged in regarding
Waldorf and
> Anthroposophy tactics- one of which tactics my first post addressed:
> sockpuppet violations of the Yahoo! Boards Terms of Service. People
were
> posting that they wanted Uncle Taz's sockpuppets off the board, and I
> gave this board a suggestion as to how to accomplish that.
>
> I will reiterate that my first post was about the IP addresses of Klaus
> and Ted being one and the same originating from Oslo. This is good
> enough to get these two IDs banned from Yahoo! Groups. I know
because we
> have had people's IDs banned for disrupting our boards. I'll be damned
> if this tidbit of good and useful information wasn't met with total
> disregard and a personal ad hom directed at me from Diana (which is
> forbidden by your own masthead as one of the two rules of engagement).
> And this ad hom was jumped on by Pete who decided to continue to make my
> ID a topic of discussion rather than address anything having to do with
> my post, Uncle Taz's violations of the ToS, Anthroposophy or Waldorf.
>
> Of course, new people to this board would look at this kind of BS and
> decide not to join or participate, because no real information is being
> provided as THIS discussion dominating the first page.
>
> Love,
>
> Os
>
Messages in this topic (48)
________________________________________________________________________
2.4. Admin: Re: [wc] Recent troll IPs
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 7:21 pm ((PDT))
Os:
>a personal ad hom directed at me from Diana (which is
>forbidden by your own masthead as one of the two rules of
>engagement).
I've invited you to discuss more substantive issues, like following up
on posts you wrote here nearly 2 years ago and declined to discuss, but
I see you still decline to discuss them.
DIana
Messages in this topic (48)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. You Know This Word
Posted by: "eyelean5280" esmyth@pobox.com eyelean5280
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 3:16 pm ((PDT))
hearásay
öadjective: an item of idle or unverified information or gossip;
rumor: a malicious hearsay.
The narrative offered here would not be permissable in any occidental
court, nor would any responsible journalist credit such a flimsy
tale.
Bracketing such a story with "I'm skeptical myself... I've never seen
the documents..." does not in any way excuse trafficking in such
adolescent gossip.
Carl Segan said extrordinary claims require extrordinary evidence. If
you don't have any evidence, none at all, why on Earth repeat (if
indeed you are repeating) this nonsense?
If anyone wants to tell his or her tale of woe concerning a bad
Waldorf experience, I'm ready to listen with sympathy - there are
good and bad Waldorf schools just as there are good and bad public
schools.
If someone wants to argue against Steiner's pedagogy or philosophy,
great. It's a free country and we need every considered opinion in
order to inform our own.
But telling stories such as this??? Please!
By the way, my mother used to work at the American Institute of
Physics. A publishing house specializing in scientific journals. A
local nutjob occassionally would accuse them of hiding UFOs in their
basement. Funny thing though, the building was on a slab. There was
no basement.
So third-hand stories about secret basements do not wash with me -
nor with any reasonable grown-up, I would think.
> Dear Waldorf Critics,
>
> My interest in Rudolf Steiner and his works came rather late. Many
> years ago, I was seeking help from a homeopath for my MPD condition
> (multiple personality disorder). He prescribed some of those little
> pills in addition to som other medicines attributed to
> anthroposophical medicine. As it turned out, my condition worsened
> considerably, my number of personalities actually doubled.
>
> Some of my fellow skeptics have argued that homeopaths and
> anthroposophical doctors are practicing quack medicine, and that
> this is the reason for the worsening of my condition. I thought so
> myself too at the time, but later on I did some extensive research
> on the topic and concluded that this type of alternative medicine
is
> harmless at worst; I had simply been inadequately diagnosed and
> given wrong dosages or something like that.
>
> Later on, I was treated at the Jawaharlal Nehru University in New
> Dehli by Dr. Masaro Delitsu for my multiple personality disorder.
> Dr. Delitsu didn't cure me, but he succeeded in reducing my
> personalities down to eight (from 25 originally). I felt so well
> that I wanted to learn how to help others, and Dr. Delitsu sent me
> to a colleague of his at Oxford in England, Dr. Herbert von
> Bisselkahn from Hamburg, who also became a good personal friend of
> mine. He taught me how to counsel recovering drug abusers.
>
> During my own practice, I was introduced to Dr. Rudolf Steiner's
> works through a patient of mine. Later on, when I was visiting
> Herbert at his home in Hamburg, I told him that I had been looking
> into Steiner, and that I thought Steiner suffered from a unique
> variety of schizophrenia because of his suppressed childhood
> traumas. What I didn't know was that Herbert had also taken a keen
> interest in Steiner, and that although he was very sympathetic to
my
> views, he also had some startling opinions of his own.
>
> I hesitate to share the following, not only because the
> anthroposophists refused to take a hard look at it, although they
> claim to believe in magic and occultism, but because I don't give
it
> much credence myself, but that's because I'm a rationalist and I
> think it's all nonsense. But I couldn't help noticing that Sharon
> Lombard used to be on your team, and she has all kinds of articles
> on your website and other places on the internet that go very
> strongly in this direction, so if there are people here interested
> in Lombard's research on Steiner magic, they might like to take a
> look at Herbert's ideas, where this is taken a significant step
> further.
>
> Herbert's opinions were based upon letters he had seen, copies of
> letters that had been procured by German Waldorf parents. Herbert
> said they were called 'The Basement Files'. Someone had tried to
> publish them once, but the Anthroposophical Society had banned the
> publication by court order, confiscated the letter copies, and
> threatened to sue. They couldn't even be mentioned in the media, it
> was complete hush-hush. According to Herbert, that is, who said he
> had it from a good source.
>
> I have never seen those documents, and I am very skeptical about
> this kind of thing. All I know is what Herbert told me, and I don't
> know if this is reliable or even credible, but here it goes:
>
> In his later years, Steiner was desperate to reproduce his peculiar
> schizophrenia, this so-called 'clairvoyance' or 'initiation', in
> other human beings after recommending exercises had yielded no
> results among his students, so he began to concentrate on children,
> whose minds, he said, were more attuned to the desired condition.
> And in order to facilitate this spiritual condition in children,
> initiation or clairvoyance, he thought he had to reproduce
something
> similar to his own childhood traumas. For this purpose, he
extracted
> a certain number of kids from the first Waldorf school in Stuttgart
> and took them to a secret area below the Goethanum: The Basement.
>
> According to alleged descriptions, this was no ordinary basement.
It
> was a cluster of rooms that looked like bomb shelters, with many
> long and winding corridors going in many directions, some of them
to
> unknown underground facilities underneath the woods nearby, and one
> such corridor was said to reach all the way to Basel. It was said
> that Steiner had acquired the services of an Italian man who knew
> the secrets of the ancient pyramids. Anyway, the juxtaposition of
> these underground rooms and corridors created a peculiar resonance
> and echo when children chanted. Copies of the chants have never
been
> seen, but the resonance of the chants, which had been composed by
> the young Aleister Crowley, Steiner's apprentice, produced some
sort
> of trance in the listeners. One of the underground rooms in the
> direction of the nearby woods was said to contain chains, shackles,
> whips, and there were pentagrams and hexagrams everywhere.
>
> Herbert didn't know much about the activities that Steiner had
> arranged there, but the letters describing all of it are supposedly
> called 'The Steiner Basement Files'. And there's more: The
Stuttgart
> Waldorf kids who came back home from the Goetheanum Basement, were
> said to be permanently changed; their personalities, attitudes,
> opinions, interests were altered. Some became incurably
> schizophrenic, and on at least one occasion, a boy became so
violent
> and dangerous that he had to be locked up. Those who were obviously
> insane were later "mercy-killed" by the Nazis, others became Nazis
> themselves, and some survived the second world war and denied that
> the Nazi era and the war ever happened. Herbert had also heard of
> anthroposophists who denied the holocaust, and he thought this was
> their background. A few of them were not in any condition to leave
> the Goethanum Basement, and some of those unfortunate children have
> been rumored to still live in the Basement, over 90 years old at
the
> present time.
>
> But that is not all. After Steiner's death, the knowledge of the
> secret Goetheanum Basement was passed on, and some founders of
> Waldorf schools built such 'special facilities' underneath their
> schools. There are not many of these, but rumors have it that there
> are at least three such 'Waldorf Basements' on each continent.
Those
> Waldorf teachers who learned the special skills of the Basement,
> were called 'inspectors', and they would visit the schools equipped
> with such facilities at night. The most important element was the
> echo effect that the chanting had to produce. One rumor says that
> the Goethanum Basement also contained, and still contains, a
special
> chamber for animal and human sacrifices.
>
> Not all 'Basement children' became schizophrenic; some became
> artists, composers, actors, and film producers. Inspired by the
> Basement Chanting, they composed music for vampire movies. Alfred
> Hitchcock, himself a former Waldorf student, although his parents
> quickly moved him over to the Catholic school St. Ignatius College
> in London when they discovered how Waldorf had awakened those
> macabre fantasies in the boy, was very much aware of this eerie
> talent and its origin. For this reason, it was always easier to get
> a job on a Hitchcock's movie set if you had Waldorf Education on
> your resume. He used to say that he wanted 'that Waldorf effect'
for
> many of his films. Tony Perkins was not only a Waldorf graduate, he
> was also a Basement Child. After 'Psycho', Hitchcock used to refer
> to Tony Perkins' facial expression at the end of the film, when he
> sits in custody thinking he is his deceased mother, for 'that
> Waldorf look'.
>
> Personally, I am very skeptical about all this. I am an ultra-
> skeptic, especially about occult claims. Nobody I have ever met or
> heard about, has seen the Goetheanum Basement, or any Waldorf
> Basement for that matter, so it's possible that the whole thing is
a
> hoax. Besides, I'm personally convinced that Rudolf Steiner was a
> kind-hearted, benign hallucinating madman, not a sadist with wicked
> subterranean blood-rituals and enslavement and programming of
> innocent children.
>
> At least, that is what I thought when Herbert told me all this. But
> Dr. Herbert von Bisselkahn is a thorough man, he is meticulous
about
> his research, unless he has been carried away with this particular
> thing, which is always a possibility. I will write to him and ask
if
> he can get electronic copies of The Basement Files somewhere, in
> which case I will be happy to upload them to Waldorf Critics.
>
> Theodor Grekenquist
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: You Know This Word
Posted by: "petekaraiskos" pkcompany@netzero.net petekaraiskos
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "eyelean5280" wrote:
>
>
> hearásay
>
> öadjective: an item of idle or unverified information or gossip;
> rumor: a malicious hearsay.
>
> The narrative offered here would not be permissable in any occidental
> court, nor would any responsible journalist credit such a flimsy
> tale.
Hi Eyelean,
The troll who produced this apparently got the desired reaction from
you. It is not a true story, nor is Theodor a real person. The tale
he relates is nothing more than nonsense (disinformation if you like)
to try to destroy the credibility of critics. The troll himself has
been identified as Tarjei - the moderator of the Anthroposophy
Tomorrow list. His behavior sends a very good message to people
reading this list - about the level to which Anthroposophists will
stoop in their hate against critics. Once the trolls have been
identified and shown the door, I have confidence that honest
discussion/debate will once again prevail on this list.
In the mean time, thank you for challenging this sort of nonsense
whenever you read it here. Everyone should be held accountable for
the claims they make here.
Pete
>
> Bracketing such a story with "I'm skeptical myself... I've never seen
> the documents..." does not in any way excuse trafficking in such
> adolescent gossip.
>
> Carl Segan said extrordinary claims require extrordinary evidence. If
> you don't have any evidence, none at all, why on Earth repeat (if
> indeed you are repeating) this nonsense?
>
> If anyone wants to tell his or her tale of woe concerning a bad
> Waldorf experience, I'm ready to listen with sympathy - there are
> good and bad Waldorf schools just as there are good and bad public
> schools.
>
> If someone wants to argue against Steiner's pedagogy or philosophy,
> great. It's a free country and we need every considered opinion in
> order to inform our own.
>
> But telling stories such as this??? Please!
>
> By the way, my mother used to work at the American Institute of
> Physics. A publishing house specializing in scientific journals. A
> local nutjob occassionally would accuse them of hiding UFOs in their
> basement. Funny thing though, the building was on a slab. There was
> no basement.
>
> So third-hand stories about secret basements do not wash with me -
> nor with any reasonable grown-up, I would think.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear Waldorf Critics,
> >
> > My interest in Rudolf Steiner and his works came rather late. Many
> > years ago, I was seeking help from a homeopath for my MPD condition
> > (multiple personality disorder). He prescribed some of those little
> > pills in addition to som other medicines attributed to
> > anthroposophical medicine. As it turned out, my condition worsened
> > considerably, my number of personalities actually doubled.
> >
> > Some of my fellow skeptics have argued that homeopaths and
> > anthroposophical doctors are practicing quack medicine, and that
> > this is the reason for the worsening of my condition. I thought so
> > myself too at the time, but later on I did some extensive research
> > on the topic and concluded that this type of alternative medicine
> is
> > harmless at worst; I had simply been inadequately diagnosed and
> > given wrong dosages or something like that.
> >
> > Later on, I was treated at the Jawaharlal Nehru University in New
> > Dehli by Dr. Masaro Delitsu for my multiple personality disorder.
> > Dr. Delitsu didn't cure me, but he succeeded in reducing my
> > personalities down to eight (from 25 originally). I felt so well
> > that I wanted to learn how to help others, and Dr. Delitsu sent me
> > to a colleague of his at Oxford in England, Dr. Herbert von
> > Bisselkahn from Hamburg, who also became a good personal friend of
> > mine. He taught me how to counsel recovering drug abusers.
> >
> > During my own practice, I was introduced to Dr. Rudolf Steiner's
> > works through a patient of mine. Later on, when I was visiting
> > Herbert at his home in Hamburg, I told him that I had been looking
> > into Steiner, and that I thought Steiner suffered from a unique
> > variety of schizophrenia because of his suppressed childhood
> > traumas. What I didn't know was that Herbert had also taken a keen
> > interest in Steiner, and that although he was very sympathetic to
> my
> > views, he also had some startling opinions of his own.
> >
> > I hesitate to share the following, not only because the
> > anthroposophists refused to take a hard look at it, although they
> > claim to believe in magic and occultism, but because I don't give
> it
> > much credence myself, but that's because I'm a rationalist and I
> > think it's all nonsense. But I couldn't help noticing that Sharon
> > Lombard used to be on your team, and she has all kinds of articles
> > on your website and other places on the internet that go very
> > strongly in this direction, so if there are people here interested
> > in Lombard's research on Steiner magic, they might like to take a
> > look at Herbert's ideas, where this is taken a significant step
> > further.
> >
> > Herbert's opinions were based upon letters he had seen, copies of
> > letters that had been procured by German Waldorf parents. Herbert
> > said they were called 'The Basement Files'. Someone had tried to
> > publish them once, but the Anthroposophical Society had banned the
> > publication by court order, confiscated the letter copies, and
> > threatened to sue. They couldn't even be mentioned in the media, it
> > was complete hush-hush. According to Herbert, that is, who said he
> > had it from a good source.
> >
> > I have never seen those documents, and I am very skeptical about
> > this kind of thing. All I know is what Herbert told me, and I don't
> > know if this is reliable or even credible, but here it goes:
> >
> > In his later years, Steiner was desperate to reproduce his peculiar
> > schizophrenia, this so-called 'clairvoyance' or 'initiation', in
> > other human beings after recommending exercises had yielded no
> > results among his students, so he began to concentrate on children,
> > whose minds, he said, were more attuned to the desired condition.
> > And in order to facilitate this spiritual condition in children,
> > initiation or clairvoyance, he thought he had to reproduce
> something
> > similar to his own childhood traumas. For this purpose, he
> extracted
> > a certain number of kids from the first Waldorf school in Stuttgart
> > and took them to a secret area below the Goethanum: The Basement.
> >
> > According to alleged descriptions, this was no ordinary basement.
> It
> > was a cluster of rooms that looked like bomb shelters, with many
> > long and winding corridors going in many directions, some of them
> to
> > unknown underground facilities underneath the woods nearby, and one
> > such corridor was said to reach all the way to Basel. It was said
> > that Steiner had acquired the services of an Italian man who knew
> > the secrets of the ancient pyramids. Anyway, the juxtaposition of
> > these underground rooms and corridors created a peculiar resonance
> > and echo when children chanted. Copies of the chants have never
> been
> > seen, but the resonance of the chants, which had been composed by
> > the young Aleister Crowley, Steiner's apprentice, produced some
> sort
> > of trance in the listeners. One of the underground rooms in the
> > direction of the nearby woods was said to contain chains, shackles,
> > whips, and there were pentagrams and hexagrams everywhere.
> >
> > Herbert didn't know much about the activities that Steiner had
> > arranged there, but the letters describing all of it are supposedly
> > called 'The Steiner Basement Files'. And there's more: The
> Stuttgart
> > Waldorf kids who came back home from the Goetheanum Basement, were
> > said to be permanently changed; their personalities, attitudes,
> > opinions, interests were altered. Some became incurably
> > schizophrenic, and on at least one occasion, a boy became so
> violent
> > and dangerous that he had to be locked up. Those who were obviously
> > insane were later "mercy-killed" by the Nazis, others became Nazis
> > themselves, and some survived the second world war and denied that
> > the Nazi era and the war ever happened. Herbert had also heard of
> > anthroposophists who denied the holocaust, and he thought this was
> > their background. A few of them were not in any condition to leave
> > the Goethanum Basement, and some of those unfortunate children have
> > been rumored to still live in the Basement, over 90 years old at
> the
> > present time.
> >
> > But that is not all. After Steiner's death, the knowledge of the
> > secret Goetheanum Basement was passed on, and some founders of
> > Waldorf schools built such 'special facilities' underneath their
> > schools. There are not many of these, but rumors have it that there
> > are at least three such 'Waldorf Basements' on each continent.
> Those
> > Waldorf teachers who learned the special skills of the Basement,
> > were called 'inspectors', and they would visit the schools equipped
> > with such facilities at night. The most important element was the
> > echo effect that the chanting had to produce. One rumor says that
> > the Goethanum Basement also contained, and still contains, a
> special
> > chamber for animal and human sacrifices.
> >
> > Not all 'Basement children' became schizophrenic; some became
> > artists, composers, actors, and film producers. Inspired by the
> > Basement Chanting, they composed music for vampire movies. Alfred
> > Hitchcock, himself a former Waldorf student, although his parents
> > quickly moved him over to the Catholic school St. Ignatius College
> > in London when they discovered how Waldorf had awakened those
> > macabre fantasies in the boy, was very much aware of this eerie
> > talent and its origin. For this reason, it was always easier to get
> > a job on a Hitchcock's movie set if you had Waldorf Education on
> > your resume. He used to say that he wanted 'that Waldorf effect'
> for
> > many of his films. Tony Perkins was not only a Waldorf graduate, he
> > was also a Basement Child. After 'Psycho', Hitchcock used to refer
> > to Tony Perkins' facial expression at the end of the film, when he
> > sits in custody thinking he is his deceased mother, for 'that
> > Waldorf look'.
> >
> > Personally, I am very skeptical about all this. I am an ultra-
> > skeptic, especially about occult claims. Nobody I have ever met or
> > heard about, has seen the Goetheanum Basement, or any Waldorf
> > Basement for that matter, so it's possible that the whole thing is
> a
> > hoax. Besides, I'm personally convinced that Rudolf Steiner was a
> > kind-hearted, benign hallucinating madman, not a sadist with wicked
> > subterranean blood-rituals and enslavement and programming of
> > innocent children.
> >
> > At least, that is what I thought when Herbert told me all this. But
> > Dr. Herbert von Bisselkahn is a thorough man, he is meticulous
> about
> > his research, unless he has been carried away with this particular
> > thing, which is always a possibility. I will write to him and ask
> if
> > he can get electronic copies of The Basement Files somewhere, in
> > which case I will be happy to upload them to Waldorf Critics.
> >
> > Theodor Grekenquist
> >
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: You Know This Word
Posted by: "petekaraiskos" pkcompany@netzero.net petekaraiskos
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 4:10 pm ((PDT))
BTW, here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/31328
is Tarjei, the moderator of the Anthroposophy Tomorrow list admitting
to intentionally trolling on this list. If only there was a Yahoo god...
Pete
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "petekaraiskos"
wrote:
>
>
> --- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "eyelean5280" wrote:
> >
> >
> > hearásay
> >
> > öadjective: an item of idle or unverified information or gossip;
> > rumor: a malicious hearsay.
> >
> > The narrative offered here would not be permissable in any occidental
> > court, nor would any responsible journalist credit such a flimsy
> > tale.
>
>
> Hi Eyelean,
>
> The troll who produced this apparently got the desired reaction from
> you. It is not a true story, nor is Theodor a real person. The tale
> he relates is nothing more than nonsense (disinformation if you like)
> to try to destroy the credibility of critics. The troll himself has
> been identified as Tarjei - the moderator of the Anthroposophy
> Tomorrow list. His behavior sends a very good message to people
> reading this list - about the level to which Anthroposophists will
> stoop in their hate against critics. Once the trolls have been
> identified and shown the door, I have confidence that honest
> discussion/debate will once again prevail on this list.
>
> In the mean time, thank you for challenging this sort of nonsense
> whenever you read it here. Everyone should be held accountable for
> the claims they make here.
>
> Pete
>
> >
> > Bracketing such a story with "I'm skeptical myself... I've never seen
> > the documents..." does not in any way excuse trafficking in such
> > adolescent gossip.
> >
> > Carl Segan said extrordinary claims require extrordinary evidence. If
> > you don't have any evidence, none at all, why on Earth repeat (if
> > indeed you are repeating) this nonsense?
> >
> > If anyone wants to tell his or her tale of woe concerning a bad
> > Waldorf experience, I'm ready to listen with sympathy - there are
> > good and bad Waldorf schools just as there are good and bad public
> > schools.
> >
> > If someone wants to argue against Steiner's pedagogy or philosophy,
> > great. It's a free country and we need every considered opinion in
> > order to inform our own.
> >
> > But telling stories such as this??? Please!
> >
> > By the way, my mother used to work at the American Institute of
> > Physics. A publishing house specializing in scientific journals. A
> > local nutjob occassionally would accuse them of hiding UFOs in their
> > basement. Funny thing though, the building was on a slab. There was
> > no basement.
> >
> > So third-hand stories about secret basements do not wash with me -
> > nor with any reasonable grown-up, I would think.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Dear Waldorf Critics,
> > >
> > > My interest in Rudolf Steiner and his works came rather late. Many
> > > years ago, I was seeking help from a homeopath for my MPD condition
> > > (multiple personality disorder). He prescribed some of those little
> > > pills in addition to som other medicines attributed to
> > > anthroposophical medicine. As it turned out, my condition worsened
> > > considerably, my number of personalities actually doubled.
> > >
> > > Some of my fellow skeptics have argued that homeopaths and
> > > anthroposophical doctors are practicing quack medicine, and that
> > > this is the reason for the worsening of my condition. I thought so
> > > myself too at the time, but later on I did some extensive research
> > > on the topic and concluded that this type of alternative medicine
> > is
> > > harmless at worst; I had simply been inadequately diagnosed and
> > > given wrong dosages or something like that.
> > >
> > > Later on, I was treated at the Jawaharlal Nehru University in New
> > > Dehli by Dr. Masaro Delitsu for my multiple personality disorder.
> > > Dr. Delitsu didn't cure me, but he succeeded in reducing my
> > > personalities down to eight (from 25 originally). I felt so well
> > > that I wanted to learn how to help others, and Dr. Delitsu sent me
> > > to a colleague of his at Oxford in England, Dr. Herbert von
> > > Bisselkahn from Hamburg, who also became a good personal friend of
> > > mine. He taught me how to counsel recovering drug abusers.
> > >
> > > During my own practice, I was introduced to Dr. Rudolf Steiner's
> > > works through a patient of mine. Later on, when I was visiting
> > > Herbert at his home in Hamburg, I told him that I had been looking
> > > into Steiner, and that I thought Steiner suffered from a unique
> > > variety of schizophrenia because of his suppressed childhood
> > > traumas. What I didn't know was that Herbert had also taken a keen
> > > interest in Steiner, and that although he was very sympathetic to
> > my
> > > views, he also had some startling opinions of his own.
> > >
> > > I hesitate to share the following, not only because the
> > > anthroposophists refused to take a hard look at it, although they
> > > claim to believe in magic and occultism, but because I don't give
> > it
> > > much credence myself, but that's because I'm a rationalist and I
> > > think it's all nonsense. But I couldn't help noticing that Sharon
> > > Lombard used to be on your team, and she has all kinds of articles
> > > on your website and other places on the internet that go very
> > > strongly in this direction, so if there are people here interested
> > > in Lombard's research on Steiner magic, they might like to take a
> > > look at Herbert's ideas, where this is taken a significant step
> > > further.
> > >
> > > Herbert's opinions were based upon letters he had seen, copies of
> > > letters that had been procured by German Waldorf parents. Herbert
> > > said they were called 'The Basement Files'. Someone had tried to
> > > publish them once, but the Anthroposophical Society had banned the
> > > publication by court order, confiscated the letter copies, and
> > > threatened to sue. They couldn't even be mentioned in the media, it
> > > was complete hush-hush. According to Herbert, that is, who said he
> > > had it from a good source.
> > >
> > > I have never seen those documents, and I am very skeptical about
> > > this kind of thing. All I know is what Herbert told me, and I don't
> > > know if this is reliable or even credible, but here it goes:
> > >
> > > In his later years, Steiner was desperate to reproduce his peculiar
> > > schizophrenia, this so-called 'clairvoyance' or 'initiation', in
> > > other human beings after recommending exercises had yielded no
> > > results among his students, so he began to concentrate on children,
> > > whose minds, he said, were more attuned to the desired condition.
> > > And in order to facilitate this spiritual condition in children,
> > > initiation or clairvoyance, he thought he had to reproduce
> > something
> > > similar to his own childhood traumas. For this purpose, he
> > extracted
> > > a certain number of kids from the first Waldorf school in Stuttgart
> > > and took them to a secret area below the Goethanum: The Basement.
> > >
> > > According to alleged descriptions, this was no ordinary basement.
> > It
> > > was a cluster of rooms that looked like bomb shelters, with many
> > > long and winding corridors going in many directions, some of them
> > to
> > > unknown underground facilities underneath the woods nearby, and one
> > > such corridor was said to reach all the way to Basel. It was said
> > > that Steiner had acquired the services of an Italian man who knew
> > > the secrets of the ancient pyramids. Anyway, the juxtaposition of
> > > these underground rooms and corridors created a peculiar resonance
> > > and echo when children chanted. Copies of the chants have never
> > been
> > > seen, but the resonance of the chants, which had been composed by
> > > the young Aleister Crowley, Steiner's apprentice, produced some
> > sort
> > > of trance in the listeners. One of the underground rooms in the
> > > direction of the nearby woods was said to contain chains, shackles,
> > > whips, and there were pentagrams and hexagrams everywhere.
> > >
> > > Herbert didn't know much about the activities that Steiner had
> > > arranged there, but the letters describing all of it are supposedly
> > > called 'The Steiner Basement Files'. And there's more: The
> > Stuttgart
> > > Waldorf kids who came back home from the Goetheanum Basement, were
> > > said to be permanently changed; their personalities, attitudes,
> > > opinions, interests were altered. Some became incurably
> > > schizophrenic, and on at least one occasion, a boy became so
> > violent
> > > and dangerous that he had to be locked up. Those who were obviously
> > > insane were later "mercy-killed" by the Nazis, others became Nazis
> > > themselves, and some survived the second world war and denied that
> > > the Nazi era and the war ever happened. Herbert had also heard of
> > > anthroposophists who denied the holocaust, and he thought this was
> > > their background. A few of them were not in any condition to leave
> > > the Goethanum Basement, and some of those unfortunate children have
> > > been rumored to still live in the Basement, over 90 years old at
> > the
> > > present time.
> > >
> > > But that is not all. After Steiner's death, the knowledge of the
> > > secret Goetheanum Basement was passed on, and some founders of
> > > Waldorf schools built such 'special facilities' underneath their
> > > schools. There are not many of these, but rumors have it that there
> > > are at least three such 'Waldorf Basements' on each continent.
> > Those
> > > Waldorf teachers who learned the special skills of the Basement,
> > > were called 'inspectors', and they would visit the schools equipped
> > > with such facilities at night. The most important element was the
> > > echo effect that the chanting had to produce. One rumor says that
> > > the Goethanum Basement also contained, and still contains, a
> > special
> > > chamber for animal and human sacrifices.
> > >
> > > Not all 'Basement children' became schizophrenic; some became
> > > artists, composers, actors, and film producers. Inspired by the
> > > Basement Chanting, they composed music for vampire movies. Alfred
> > > Hitchcock, himself a former Waldorf student, although his parents
> > > quickly moved him over to the Catholic school St. Ignatius College
> > > in London when they discovered how Waldorf had awakened those
> > > macabre fantasies in the boy, was very much aware of this eerie
> > > talent and its origin. For this reason, it was always easier to get
> > > a job on a Hitchcock's movie set if you had Waldorf Education on
> > > your resume. He used to say that he wanted 'that Waldorf effect'
> > for
> > > many of his films. Tony Perkins was not only a Waldorf graduate, he
> > > was also a Basement Child. After 'Psycho', Hitchcock used to refer
> > > to Tony Perkins' facial expression at the end of the film, when he
> > > sits in custody thinking he is his deceased mother, for 'that
> > > Waldorf look'.
> > >
> > > Personally, I am very skeptical about all this. I am an ultra-
> > > skeptic, especially about occult claims. Nobody I have ever met or
> > > heard about, has seen the Goetheanum Basement, or any Waldorf
> > > Basement for that matter, so it's possible that the whole thing is
> > a
> > > hoax. Besides, I'm personally convinced that Rudolf Steiner was a
> > > kind-hearted, benign hallucinating madman, not a sadist with wicked
> > > subterranean blood-rituals and enslavement and programming of
> > > innocent children.
> > >
> > > At least, that is what I thought when Herbert told me all this. But
> > > Dr. Herbert von Bisselkahn is a thorough man, he is meticulous
> > about
> > > his research, unless he has been carried away with this particular
> > > thing, which is always a possibility. I will write to him and ask
> > if
> > > he can get electronic copies of The Basement Files somewhere, in
> > > which case I will be happy to upload them to Waldorf Critics.
> > >
> > > Theodor Grekenquist
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: You Know This Word
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 7:23 pm ((PDT))
Eyelean:
>The narrative offered here would not be permissable in any occidental
>court, nor would any responsible journalist credit such a flimsy tale.
It was a hoax, Eyelean.
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
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There are 2 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Nostalgia for play and the new "play-positive" agenda
From: winters_diana
2. When should a kid start kindergarten?
From: winters_diana
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Nostalgia for play and the new "play-positive" agenda
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 7:04 am ((PDT))
Interesting Waldorf-relevant piece in the Times Sunday magazine today
by Walter Kirn on the nostalgia for play that today's parents are
apparently experiencing, looking back at their own childhoods through
rose-colored glasses:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/magazine/03wwln-lede-t.html?
_r=1&ref=magazine&oref=slogin
Summarizing his stance briefly (and I usually agree with Walter
Kirn), I would paraphrase: Yeah, play was great, we did more real
play when we were kids, the outdoor and unstructured kind where you
slammed the screen door behind you and took off for the afternoon and
ran free till darkness fell or mother called for dinner. Today
children's play is too structured, too controlled, too micromanaged
by adults, and risk-averse to an unwholesome extreme ö too many
organized activities and teams etc. (and, it almost goes without
saying, too much electronic media). But, playing devil's advocate,
the new attempts to perhaps *enforce* a more spontaneous, free
wheeling style of play are likely to backfire. It's like some parents
and educators are now trying paradoxically to structure a less
structured play experience for their children, and this is, well, a
little messed up.
He does not mention Waldorf but hopefully the relevance is obvious.
He's also uncomfortable with what he calls "deliberate promotion of
character-building childhood mishaps," a discomfort I think Waldorf
parents often share when they see how poorly supervised and seemingly
careless of risk and injury Waldorf environments can be.
And, unfortunately he mentions the "play-positive" Alliance for
Childhood apparently without awareness of its anthroposophical
agenda. (In fact he mentions Montessori in the next sentence, and
while he doesn't explicitly connect Montessori and the Alliance, I
wondered if he had confused Waldorf with Montessori, as many people
do.)
He points out that some of these parents seem to have forgotten how
often the light-hearted rough and tumble of our own youth ended in,
say, head injuries (he describes games involving "baseball bats, a
big tin can and no discernible rules" that ended in "sheets of blood
and a cracked skull"). It's one thing to remember such adventures
fondly decades later even if at the time they really *hurt*, and
another thing to go about orchestrating them for our own children,
when in fact, their safety really is our primary responsibility.
And though he doesn't go into this, I would add that it's a mistake
to sentimentalize how light hearted all these long afternoons of fun
were. Kids can be unbelievably cruel to one another ö I'm sure that
game is not remembered happily by the kid whose *head* the big tin
can was aimed at. I think in my day most of this went unobserved and
unknown to parents unless or until it required a trip to the
emergency room.
Diana
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. When should a kid start kindergarten?
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 8:02 am ((PDT))
Another interesting Waldorf-relevant article in today's Times.
When Should a Kid Start Kindergarten? By Elizbeth Weil
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/magazine/03kindergarten-t.html?
ref=magazine
What I've always thought was interesting about the fad of holding
kids back a year is the denial or obliviousness among parents that
this is a competitive thing. The children entering later are
obviously more mature and will appear brighter and more accomplished
and confident.
For the education establishment, of course, there are cynical reasons
for this practice they call "redshirting"; the article notes
that "increasing the average age of the children in a kindergarten
class is a cheap and easy way to get a small bump in test scores."
Improved test scores in the district appear to be the handwork of an
administrator who in reality simply moved the kindergarten birthday
cut-off date back 3 months.
It is a class issue, too; in affluent communities apparently the
number of children "redshirted" is three or four times the national
average, for the obvious reason that their parents can afford to keep
them home longer, and have the time and resources to make that extra
year a constructive one in terms of school readiness (they aren't
just watching TV in the basement with grandma, as the author puts
it).
Diana
Messages in this topic (1)
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There are 16 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy list
From: winters_diana
1b. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: winters_diana
1c. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: winters_diana
1d. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: Eileen Smyth
1e. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: petekaraiskos
1f. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: kmlightseeker
1g. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: Margaret Sachs
1h. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: petekaraiskos
1i. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: awaldenpond
1j. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: winters_diana
1k. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: winters_diana
1l. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: winters_diana
1m. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: winters_diana
1n. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: petekaraiskos
1o. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
From: Margaret Sachs
2.1. Re: Recent troll IPs
From: petekaraiskos
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy list
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 6:08 am ((PDT))
Thought I'd catch up this morning on the "anthroposophy" list at
yahoo. (The "anthroposophy_tomorrow" list is a black hole at the
moment; all they're doing is congratulating themselves on
their "trolling" on this list.)
On "anthroposophy," however, a poster named Carol (post 13286)
heartily recommends a "great selection of essays and lectures"
reflecting the present-day anthroposophical world conception. I have
to recommend it as well for showing everything that is repellent in
the anthroposophical world conception today. The very first "article
of interest" highlighted on the page is by an anthroposophical
holocaust denier, Gennady Bondarev, with an introduction by Robert
Mason, also a holocaust denier and anthroposophist. Articles by Mason
are also featured further down the main page. (There's lots of other
objectionable stuff on that web site, too, but we'll stick with
holocaust denial.)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/13286
post 13286
http://www.eleggua.com/spirit.html
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 6:20 am ((PDT))
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/13286
post 13286
http://www.eleggua.com/spirit.html
Let me repeat that if you click this link, the article by Bondarev is
the first highlighted article. Then opening his article the second
paragraph contemptuously describes the "so-called `Holocaust' of Jews
under the Nazi regime."
I point this out because this material is not difficult to find and
not difficult to understand. It is not likely that readers of the
list did not notice or understand its import. I did not have to dig
deep or follow a maze of links to find this, read between the lines,
or interpret anything subtle or mysteriously worded. (Indeed a large
diagram on the main page of the eluggua site suggests that "Zionism"
is to be considered an equivalent evil to "National Socialism.") If
you are a reader of the "anthroposophy" list (one of the main public
forums for anthroposophical discussion in English), this material is
IN YOUR FACE.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/
Diana
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 6:22 am ((PDT))
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/13286
post 13286
http://www.eleggua.com/spirit.html
Let me repeat that if you click this link, the article by Bondarev is
the first highlighted article. Then opening his article the second
paragraph contemptuously describes the "so-called `Holocaust' of Jews
under the Nazi regime."
I point this out because this material is not difficult to find and
not difficult to understand. It is not likely that readers of the
list did not notice or understand its import. I did not have to dig
deep or follow a maze of links to find this, read between the lines,
or interpret anything subtle or mysteriously worded. (Indeed a large
diagram on the main page of the eluggua site suggests that "Zionism"
is to be considered an equivalent evil to "National Socialism.") If
you are a reader of the "anthroposophy" list (one of the main public
forums for anthroposophical discussion in English), this material is
IN YOUR FACE.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/
Diana
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "Eileen Smyth" esmyth@pobox.com eyelean5280
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 7:21 am ((PDT))
I haven't looked at Diana's links so I can't comment on them specifically
but of course, Holocaust denial is morally disgusting as well as
historically mendacious. It should be exposed to public scrutiny and outcry
wherever we find it.
That said, I would like to point out that Waldorf schools (and this site is
about Waldorf) are independent institutions and one cannot infer anything
about a particular school on the basis of the opinions of anthroposophists
outside of that school.
Our school has a history block focusing on the holocaust given in seventh
grade and in our school store, we sell young readers' literature such as
Anne Frank's diary and the novel The Devil's Arithmetic.
Eileen
-----Original Message-----
From: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of winters_diana
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 9:07 AM
To: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [wc] Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy
list
Thought I'd catch up this morning on the "anthroposophy" list at
yahoo. (The "anthroposophy_tomorrow" list is a black hole at the
moment; all they're doing is congratulating themselves on
their "trolling" on this list.)
On "anthroposophy," however, a poster named Carol (post 13286)
heartily recommends a "great selection of essays and lectures"
reflecting the present-day anthroposophical world conception. I have
to recommend it as well for showing everything that is repellent in
the anthroposophical world conception today. The very first "article
of interest" highlighted on the page is by an anthroposophical
holocaust denier, Gennady Bondarev, with an introduction by Robert
Mason, also a holocaust denier and anthroposophist. Articles by Mason
are also featured further down the main page. (There's lots of other
objectionable stuff on that web site, too, but we'll stick with
holocaust denial.)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/13286
post 13286
http://www.eleggua.com/spirit.html
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date: 6/2/2007 5:26
PM
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "petekaraiskos" pkcompany@netzero.net petekaraiskos
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 8:29 am ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Smyth" wrote:
>
> I haven't looked at Diana's links so I can't comment on them
specifically
> but of course, Holocaust denial is morally disgusting as well as
> historically mendacious. It should be exposed to public scrutiny and
outcry
> wherever we find it.
>
> That said, I would like to point out that Waldorf schools (and this
site is
> about Waldorf) are independent institutions and one cannot infer
anything
> about a particular school on the basis of the opinions of
anthroposophists
> outside of that school.
>
> Our school has a history block focusing on the holocaust given in
seventh
> grade and in our school store, we sell young readers' literature such as
> Anne Frank's diary and the novel The Devil's Arithmetic.
>
> Eileen
Hi Eileen,
Don't Waldorf schools collectively take credit for every good that
happens? When a graduate goes on to become CEO of Am Ex, we hear that
he was a "Waldorf graduate" - not a graduate from a particular
independent Waldorf school. Why is that pretense of "collective"
automatically abandoned when something negative is brought to light?
When we hear about something unfortunate happening, suddenly each
school is "independent" and cannot be connected to other schools.
While I applaud that your school doesn't ban literature that discusses
the holocaust, I'm weary of the same game that is played every time
some horrible truth about Waldorf is revealed here and everywhere.
Pete
> -----Original Message-----
> From: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of winters_diana
> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 9:07 AM
> To: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [wc] Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo
anthroposophy
> list
>
>
>
> Thought I'd catch up this morning on the "anthroposophy" list at
> yahoo. (The "anthroposophy_tomorrow" list is a black hole at the
> moment; all they're doing is congratulating themselves on
> their "trolling" on this list.)
>
> On "anthroposophy," however, a poster named Carol (post 13286)
> heartily recommends a "great selection of essays and lectures"
> reflecting the present-day anthroposophical world conception. I have
> to recommend it as well for showing everything that is repellent in
> the anthroposophical world conception today. The very first "article
> of interest" highlighted on the page is by an anthroposophical
> holocaust denier, Gennady Bondarev, with an introduction by Robert
> Mason, also a holocaust denier and anthroposophist. Articles by Mason
> are also featured further down the main page. (There's lots of other
> objectionable stuff on that web site, too, but we'll stick with
> holocaust denial.)
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/13286
>
> post 13286
>
> http://www.eleggua.com/spirit.html
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date:
6/2/2007 5:26
> PM
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "kmlightseeker" kmlightseeker@yahoo.com.au kmlightseeker
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 11:25 am ((PDT))
Hi Eileen,
I think these pages might of interest to the discussion:
"Holocaust Education in Germany" -
http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1998-no-frames/holocaust-ed-in-germany.htm
"Holocaust education in germany: an interview" -
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/germans/germans/education.html
Regards,
Keith
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "Eileen Smyth" wrote:
>
> I haven't looked at Diana's links so I can't comment on them
specifically
> but of course, Holocaust denial is morally disgusting as well as
> historically mendacious. It should be exposed to public scrutiny and
outcry
> wherever we find it.
>
> That said, I would like to point out that Waldorf schools (and this
site is
> about Waldorf) are independent institutions and one cannot infer
anything
> about a particular school on the basis of the opinions of
anthroposophists
> outside of that school.
>
> Our school has a history block focusing on the holocaust given in
seventh
> grade and in our school store, we sell young readers' literature such as
> Anne Frank's diary and the novel The Devil's Arithmetic.
>
> Eileen
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of winters_diana
> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 9:07 AM
> To: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [wc] Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo
anthroposophy
> list
>
>
>
> Thought I'd catch up this morning on the "anthroposophy" list at
> yahoo. (The "anthroposophy_tomorrow" list is a black hole at the
> moment; all they're doing is congratulating themselves on
> their "trolling" on this list.)
>
> On "anthroposophy," however, a poster named Carol (post 13286)
> heartily recommends a "great selection of essays and lectures"
> reflecting the present-day anthroposophical world conception. I have
> to recommend it as well for showing everything that is repellent in
> the anthroposophical world conception today. The very first "article
> of interest" highlighted on the page is by an anthroposophical
> holocaust denier, Gennady Bondarev, with an introduction by Robert
> Mason, also a holocaust denier and anthroposophist. Articles by Mason
> are also featured further down the main page. (There's lots of other
> objectionable stuff on that web site, too, but we'll stick with
> holocaust denial.)
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/13286
>
> post 13286
>
> http://www.eleggua.com/spirit.html
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date:
6/2/2007 5:26
> PM
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004@yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 1:16 pm ((PDT))
Thanks, Diana, for posting these links. Yet another
thing prospective parents should see before choosing
to send their children to a school run by
Anthroposophists.
Pete K, does Highland Hall's history teacher include a
trip to the Museum of Tolerance in his high school
history course? After all, it is right here in Los
Angeles and serves as one of the most significant
educational resources on the Holocaust.
Best,
Margaret
--- winters_diana wrote:
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/13286
>
> post 13286
>
> http://www.eleggua.com/spirit.html
>
> Let me repeat that if you click this link, the
> article by Bondarev is
> the first highlighted article. Then opening his
> article the second
> paragraph contemptuously describes the "so-called
> `Holocaust' of Jews
> under the Nazi regime."
>
> I point this out because this material is not
> difficult to find and
> not difficult to understand. It is not likely that
> readers of the
> list did not notice or understand its import. I did
> not have to dig
> deep or follow a maze of links to find this, read
> between the lines,
> or interpret anything subtle or mysteriously worded.
> (Indeed a large
> diagram on the main page of the eluggua site
> suggests that "Zionism"
> is to be considered an equivalent evil to "National
> Socialism.") If
> you are a reader of the "anthroposophy" list (one of
> the main public
> forums for anthroposophical discussion in English),
> this material is
> IN YOUR FACE.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/
>
> Diana
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "petekaraiskos" pkcompany@netzero.net petekaraiskos
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 2:19 pm ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, Margaret Sachs
wrote:
>
> Thanks, Diana, for posting these links. Yet another
> thing prospective parents should see before choosing
> to send their children to a school run by
> Anthroposophists.
>
> Pete K, does Highland Hall's history teacher include a
> trip to the Museum of Tolerance in his high school
> history course? After all, it is right here in Los
> Angeles and serves as one of the most significant
> educational resources on the Holocaust.
>
> Best,
> Margaret
Hi Margaret,
I've never heard of Highland Hall organizing such a field trip - and
certainly my own kids have never been taken there by the school. I
think, however, now that you mention it - I'll take the initiative and
ask about it - and even offer to organize a field trip there. It
would be interesting to see what their response might be.
Here's an opportunity for them to step up... let's see...
Pete
>
> --- winters_diana wrote:
>
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/13286
> >
> > post 13286
> >
> > http://www.eleggua.com/spirit.html
> >
> > Let me repeat that if you click this link, the
> > article by Bondarev is
> > the first highlighted article. Then opening his
> > article the second
> > paragraph contemptuously describes the "so-called
> > `Holocaust' of Jews
> > under the Nazi regime."
> >
> > I point this out because this material is not
> > difficult to find and
> > not difficult to understand. It is not likely that
> > readers of the
> > list did not notice or understand its import. I did
> > not have to dig
> > deep or follow a maze of links to find this, read
> > between the lines,
> > or interpret anything subtle or mysteriously worded.
> > (Indeed a large
> > diagram on the main page of the eluggua site
> > suggests that "Zionism"
> > is to be considered an equivalent evil to "National
> > Socialism.") If
> > you are a reader of the "anthroposophy" list (one of
> > the main public
> > forums for anthroposophical discussion in English),
> > this material is
> > IN YOUR FACE.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/
> >
> > Diana
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos
new Car Finder tool.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "awaldenpond" awaldenpond@shaw.ca awaldenpond
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 5:12 pm ((PDT))
Hi Eileen,
You wrote
> I haven't looked at Diana's links so I can't comment on them
specifically
> but of course, Holocaust denial is morally disgusting as well as
> historically mendacious. It should be exposed to public scrutiny
and outcry
> wherever we find it.
>
> That said, I would like to point out that Waldorf schools (and this
site is about Waldorf)
To be clear,this discussion list deals with Waldorf and it's founding
philosophy/religion, Anthroposophy.
>are independent institutions and one cannot infer anything
> about a particular school on the basis of the opinions of
>anthroposophists
> outside of that school.
I don't think this is correct. There are many things common to all
Waldorf schools - Eurythmy, for example. Anthroposophists at the
Association of Waldorf Schools of North America and their opinions
*do* have something to do with particular schools. AWSNA owns the
name "Waldorf." Etc.
> Our school has a history block focusing on the holocaust given in
seventh
> grade and in our school store, we sell young readers' literature
such as
> Anne Frank's diary and the novel The Devil's Arithmetic.
This is good to know. Here's the issue, though: Whereas the founder
of Anthroposophy/Waldorf (Steiner) issued many anti-Semitic remarks
during his lifetime and whereas we see equally offensive comments by
Anthroposophists today with regards to holocaust denial, do you think
the powers-that-be at your particular school would be willing to
issue a statement distancing your school from Steiner's antisemitism
and modern Anthro holocaust deniers? This same statement could also
carry a condemnation of published Anthroposophic racial sentiment.
It's a good thing, imo, that your school offers a block on the
holocaust but as you have seen here, "history" is not a strong
subject for many Anthroposophists. As Waldorf is based on
Anthroposophy and Anthroposophic initiatives (biodynamics) were part
of concentration camps, would you be willing to suggest this
discussion be part of the holocaust history block at your Waldorf
school?
-Walden
>
> Eileen
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of winters_diana
> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 9:07 AM
> To: waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [wc] Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo
anthroposophy
> list
>
>
>
> Thought I'd catch up this morning on the "anthroposophy" list at
> yahoo. (The "anthroposophy_tomorrow" list is a black hole at the
> moment; all they're doing is congratulating themselves on
> their "trolling" on this list.)
>
> On "anthroposophy," however, a poster named Carol (post 13286)
> heartily recommends a "great selection of essays and lectures"
> reflecting the present-day anthroposophical world conception. I
have
> to recommend it as well for showing everything that is repellent
in
> the anthroposophical world conception today. The very
first "article
> of interest" highlighted on the page is by an anthroposophical
> holocaust denier, Gennady Bondarev, with an introduction by Robert
> Mason, also a holocaust denier and anthroposophist. Articles by
Mason
> are also featured further down the main page. (There's lots of
other
> objectionable stuff on that web site, too, but we'll stick with
> holocaust denial.)
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/13286
>
> post 13286
>
> http://www.eleggua.com/spirit.html
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date:
6/2/2007 5:26
> PM
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1j. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 5:58 pm ((PDT))
On the "anthroposophy" list, Carol posted her recommended summer
reading list for her listmates yesterday morning, and there has been
amiable chat since then, with no one complaining about or perhaps
even noticing the offensive site she endorsed. I'm going to post a
follow-up she wrote today as well. The list is discussing various
conspiracy theories (usual fare on anthroposophical lists, I'm sorry
to say). Carol is replying here to a listmate who commented on 9/11
and other "conspiracies," bemoaning that most Americans don't seem to
understand all these conspiracies.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/13298
I will quote Carol's new post in full:
"It's a very strange phenomena in North America that the population
seems divided into 2 major groupings. Those who respond to, and
possess a tendency to want to think and actually feel `truth' through
their hearts, and those who adhere to an extreme materialistic
dictum. There's no arguing with the latter (they seem pretty sealed
in their belief systems), and their `way' seems to have taken the
lead on how society will direct itself into the future (especially
since Bush stole his first mandate). `Theirs' has basically quashed
the possibility of publicly discussing `issues of dissent' from out
of a primordial set ignorance; wherein the question of secular
Jewish rights and the forbidding of a review WW11 events seem to
exist as the imposed, generalized sensitivities which justify
distracting everyone from living and viewing what is happening in
their `very present' lives. (This is a view from 1 angle).
Basically, if North America were to allowed one lie to be openly
discussed, the simple act of permitting this would undoubtedly
(unleash) open the door to (collective) healthy human reflection, and
this exercise would inevitably turn and focus on many other events
from out of the near and distant past ( which are presently
recognized in the form of their lies ex. Aids `biological warfare',
torture, political assassinations, state run mind control operations,
the ongoing human disgrace taking place in the Middle East, etc. )
The mechanisms for `criticizing' are effectively submerged by the
forces which run society at the moment, and great efforts are in
place to effectively expand this work. (Subliminal terror tactics on
the unsuspecting population). Basically the underlying message
is 'the lies MUST go on' and that 'the state is organising itself
increasingly to ensure this'.
Alot of people know about the false flag which 911 represents, but
they also know that 'dissent'is very risky, and that their 'power of
vote' has been reduced to child play.
Which brings us back to the pressing questions of which Anthroposophy
addresses."
Diana resumes:
If I'm understanding this correctly, she starts by invoking the usual
dichotomy between spiritual people and the rest of us who have a
supposedly hopelessly "materialistic" understanding of things.
The "issues of dissent" that Americans are supposedly not allowed to
discuss include the supposed fabrication of the Holocaust, as she
alludes in the same sentence to the "forbidding of a review WW11
events." . . . "if North America were to allowed one lie to be openly
discussed" includes the "lie" of the Holocaust.
The immediate reply to her post, from someone named Gloria, reads in
part:
"seeing it from the anthroposophical perspective gives me somehow the
feeling that I am not fully alone with these perceptions." (Gloria is
not replying solely to the question of the "WWII events," I assume,
but to Carol's post in general. She seems to be saying in general she
has found kindred spirits among anthroposophists.)
If anyone thinks perhaps I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading here,
let me know.
All of the replies and subsequent discussion have been amiable; no
one has objected to the material on the eluggua site.
Diana
Messages in this topic (15)
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1k. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 6:09 pm ((PDT))
Eileen wrote:
>I haven't looked at Diana's links
May I gently suggest that looking at them might make it less easy to
dismiss the topic?
>so I can't comment on them specifically but of course, Holocaust
>denial is morally disgusting as well as historically mendacious. It
>should be exposed to public scrutiny and outcry wherever we find it.
Then perhaps you'll join me in exposing it to public scrutiny. That
would probably include looking at the links.
>That said, I would like to point out that Waldorf schools (and this
>site is about Waldorf) are independent institutions and one cannot
>infer anything about a particular school on the basis of the
>opinions of anthroposophists outside of that school.
All Waldorf schools are influenced by anthroposophy: all Waldorf
schools. What is required is that Waldorf schools actively *reject*
certain aspects of anthroposophy - not just demur that (so to
speak) "this has nothing to do with us."
What individuals believe or don't believe you can only determine by
asking them, of course, and unless people from your school are
posting on that particular list (which may be hard to know for sure
since so many people don't use their real names), you can't know
whether they agree with Carol and her friends or not.
>Our school has a history block focusing on the holocaust given in
>seventh grade and in our school store, we sell young readers'
>literature such as Anne Frank's diary and the novel The Devil's
>Arithmetic.
I have never read "The Devil's Arithmetic" but apropos of the
discussion of Holocaust education, I'd like to recommend the
book "Fateless" by the Hungarian author Imre Kertesz, who survived
Buchenwald and Auschwitz as a teenager. It is definitely appropriate
for the seventh or eighth grade, and though it sounds strange to say
so of Holocaust literature, it is a really wonderful book. (The movie
is also great. I don't usually like the kneejerk "We'll read the book
and then we'll watch the movie" that so many teachers fall back on,
even if the movie is crappy - to fill up class time I always suspect -
but in this case, the movie is excellent.)
Diana
Messages in this topic (15)
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1l. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 6:20 pm ((PDT))
Margaret wrote:
>Pete K, does Highland Hall's history teacher include a trip to the
>Museum of Tolerance in his high school history course? After all, it
>is right here in Los Angeles and serves as one of the most significant
>educational resources on the Holocaust.
I can't say how it's done in all schools, but my son's Quaker school
began holocaust education in the sixth grade. High school seems a bit
late. They also read the Diary of Anne Frank in sixth grade. I partly
liked "Fateless" because it is a boy's story; I hope it doesn't make
him sound shallow but my son at age 11 had a hard time relating to Anne
Frank, and I had to admit it's kinda girly. "Fateless" also does not
contain anything too graphic for this age but is a very powerful story;
the horror of what is happening builds very slowly.
Diana
Messages in this topic (15)
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1m. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters@verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 6:29 pm ((PDT))
I wrote:
>All Waldorf schools are influenced by anthroposophy: all Waldorf
>schools. What is required is that Waldorf schools actively *reject*
>certain aspects of anthroposophy - not just demur that (so to
>speak) "this has nothing to do with us."
and I really think this piece is clear. Waldorf, as a movement, is
based on anthroposophy as a package deal. There is absolutely no doubt
about this; this is institutionalized in the training centers, which
require study of the overall anthroposophical worldview before Waldorf
pedagogy is taught, and in the make-up of the traditional "College of
Teachers" in Waldorf schools: they are almost always all
anthroposophists.
And in North America it is institutionalized, as Walden pointed out, by
the Association of Waldorf Schools of North America, which leadership
consists of anthroposophists. A similar situation pertains, to my
understanding, in Europe; the organizations and federations that
accredit and at least loosely direct Waldorf education are run by
anthroposophists.
Therefore, specifically disassociating themselves from the offensive
material in Steiner is what is required of Waldorf schools. It is not
adequate to say, "Maybe not everybody at all the schools believes all
of it."
Diana
Messages in this topic (15)
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1n. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "petekaraiskos" pkcompany@netzero.net petekaraiskos
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 7:48 pm ((PDT))
--- In waldorf-critics@yahoogroups.com, "winters_diana"
wrote:
>
> Margaret wrote:
>
> >Pete K, does Highland Hall's history teacher include a trip to the
> >Museum of Tolerance in his high school history course? After all, it
> >is right here in Los Angeles and serves as one of the most significant
> >educational resources on the Holocaust.
>
> I can't say how it's done in all schools, but my son's Quaker school
> began holocaust education in the sixth grade. High school seems a bit
> late. They also read the Diary of Anne Frank in sixth grade. I partly
> liked "Fateless" because it is a boy's story; I hope it doesn't make
> him sound shallow but my son at age 11 had a hard time relating to Anne
> Frank, and I had to admit it's kinda girly. "Fateless" also does not
> contain anything too graphic for this age but is a very powerful story;
> the horror of what is happening builds very slowly.
> Diana
>
Meanwhile, I have contacted one of the class sponsors for the 9th
grade and asked if this could be a field trip for next year. She
indicated that she would have to find out more about the exhibit and
suggested I talk directly with the high school history teacher. I
will follow up on this.
I have to say, it was an unexpected and pleasant surprise that I got a
response so quickly and on a Sunday afternoon.
Pete
Messages in this topic (15)
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1o. Re: Holocaust denial material recommended on yahoo anthroposophy lis
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004@yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 9:21 pm ((PDT))
Good luck, Pete. The museum focuses not just on the
Holocaust but also on worldwide human rights issues.
It's absolutely appropriate for teenagers. If you
check out their Web site you'll see they have several
youth programs for di