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-- Topica Digest --
'So you'd like to... know if you qualify as NewAge++'
By barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:15:36 +0000
From: Barnaby McEwan (barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com)
Subject: 'So you'd like to... know if you qualify as NewAge++'
Happy New Year, eveyone.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/1FYGGVUOFRM6A/ref%3Dcm%5Fr8n%5Fsylt%5Ftop%5Ftv%5Fdp/002-4653293-6038405
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2015
-- Topica Digest --
RE: 'So you'd like to... know if you qualify as NewAge++'
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: 'So you'd like to... know if you qualify as NewAge++'
By barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com
RE: Narnia, Hollywood and Christianity
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: Narnia, Hollywood and Christianity
By ldenike aol.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 09:43:14 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: 'So you'd like to... know if you qualify as NewAge++'
Thanks Barnaby. Pretty funny. The claim "I'm spiritual but not religious" is
getting a bit old isn't it?
Happy New Year, critics and Waldorf enthusiasts alike! I hope that 2006 has
started off healthy and happy for all. Where does the time go?
Someone (does she mind if I quote her? hint hint) sent me an article about
vaccines and the Amish and their supposedly low rate of autism, which I'll
comment on here soon. Please tell me if you wish your name to be
unmentioned? (I am blind copying you.)
Diana
-----Original Message-----
From: Barnaby McEwan [mailto:barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 6:16 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: 'So you'd like to... know if you qualify as NewAge++'
Happy New Year, eveyone.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/1FYGGVUOFRM6A/re
f%3Dcm%5Fr8n%5Fsylt%5Ftop%5Ftv%5Fdp/002-4653293-6038405
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:05:41 +0000
From: Barnaby McEwan (barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: 'So you'd like to... know if you qualify as NewAge++'
Diana Winters wrote:
) The claim "I'm spiritual but not religious" is
) getting a bit old isn't it?
I guess so; those wacky Romantics! I don't really have a problem with
people describing themselves that way; I've been known to myself. The
people who bother me are the ones who confuse 'spirituality' with
subscribing to any old bollocks as long as it sounds mysterious.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 09:51:04 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Narnia, Hollywood and Christianity
Incidentally the article on Christianity in Hollywood that I was referring
to was in the Atlantic Monthly December '05 but isn't available on-line
(unless you are a subscriber to the magazine). It's called "Can Jesus Save
Hollywood?" by Hanna Rosin. I'll summarize it if I find time. Or maybe a
quick quote will do: George Barna, a "respected evangelist," recently "had a
revelation: he decided that film had more influence on parishioners than
church, and he started Barna Films, an arm of his Christian media company.
Philip Anschutz, a devout Christian and the billionaire founder of Qwest
Communications, founded the Anschutz Film Group last year; it includes
Walden Media, Disney's partner in 'The Chronicles of Narnia.' (Anschutz
produced last year's Oscar-winning 'Ray,' in which he insisted on excising
Ray Charles's cursing and womanizing.) Christians can now choose from among
a dozen Hollywood prayer groups, including the Hollywood Prayer Network,
dedicated to building 'an army of talented professionals to change Hollywood
from the inside out.'" etc Also the evangelical colleges, some of which used
to go so far as to forbid students to even watch most movies, let alone make
them, have started film programs, often with very expensive state-of-the-art
facilities. Etc.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 19:49:28 -0500
From: ldenike aol.com
Subject: Re: Narnia, Hollywood and Christianity
Thanks for following up on this for us, Diana. I will see if I can get my hands on the article. Re: Barna. Smart guy. I am surprised it took someone this long to "get" that films can influence large numbers of people. Even Hitler knew that! :)
By the way, I finally got to the cinema to see "The Chronicles of Narnia." I absolutely loved it, and so did both of my kids, neither one of whom has had any formal Christian education. (Well, the older girl was baptised when she was teensy, but the younger one wasn't, and neither one has attended a church service in her life.) They thought the story was compelling and thrilling and "got" the battle of good against evil. I thought the child actors (especially the little girl who played Lucy Pevensie) were generally wonderful and Tilda Swinton, who played the white witch, was superb. (I did some reading on her and she and her partner send their twins to a Steiner school. In fact, one article online said that they had moved from one home they had to another, to be closer to the Steiner school. Great actress, but bad decision for her kids, I daresay. (g))
I had a very interesting discussion with a Jewish colleague who took his sons to see "Narnia" before I had the chance to go, and who recommended it highly. (His son is about to be bar mitvahed. Is that a verb? Hope you guys know what I mean!) I asked him if the Christian elements (much talked about) were bothersome to him and his family. He replied (and I paraphrase, but the meaning is the same): "Christian elements were certainly there, if you know enough to look for them. But if you don't -- and my kids don't -- it is just a really compelling story about good and evil and the battle between them."
In my opinion, people will always take away from a movie (or book, or any work of art) what they bring to it, if you know what I mean. Christians who go to see "Narnia" will certainly see Aslan as the Jesus of Nazareth/Christ figure, from his willing sacrifice of himself to the words "It is finished" to the stone table cracking in half at his death. Those who have no religious belief, on the other hand, might just see an epic battle, as did my friend's sons.
To me, that's the beauty of most works of art. Certainly the author or producer, etc. has a certain idea and point of view in mind when he or she sets out to create something. But the audience often brings something else entirely.
Frankly, I don't get the fuss over "Narnia" and the "Christian elements." (If I read another interview with the actors in which they are asked about the "spiritual elements," I will throw up.) Most people know that CS Lewis was a strong Christian believer. Just take a look at some of the titles of his books and that is obvious. It makes sense that he would put a strong Christian viewpoint in his work. But one can enjoy and benefit from the story without knowing that. I wonder: do people worry that if kids see the movie, they will want to become Christians? If so, that's laughable.
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Sent: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 09:51:04 -0500
Subject: RE: Narnia, Hollywood and Christianity
Incidentally the article on Christianity in Hollywood that I was referring
to was in the Atlantic Monthly December '05 but isn't available on-line
(unless you are a subscriber to the magazine). It's called "Can Jesus Save
Hollywood?" by Hanna Rosin. I'll summarize it if I find time. Or maybe a
quick quote will do: George Barna, a "respected evangelist," recently "had a
revelation: he decided that film had more influence on parishioners than
church, and he started Barna Films, an arm of his Christian media company.
Philip Anschutz, a devout Christian and the billionaire founder of Qwest
Communications, founded the Anschutz Film Group last year; it includes
Walden Media, Disney's partner in 'The Chronicles of Narnia.' (Anschutz
produced last year's Oscar-winning 'Ray,' in which he insisted on excising
Ray Charles's cursing and womanizing.) Christians can now choose from among
a dozen Hollywood prayer groups, including the Hollywood Prayer Network,
dedicated to building 'an army of talented professionals to change Hollywood
from the inside out.'" etc Also the evangelical colleges, some of which used
to go so far as to forbid students to even watch most movies, let alone make
them, have started film programs, often with very expensive state-of-the-art
facilities. Etc.
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
threads are always welcome.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2016
-- Topica Digest --
Atlanta Waldorf School may be entangled in Abramoff scandal
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:57:20 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Atlanta Waldorf School may be entangled in Abramoff scandal
Mentioned in this report,
http://www.commondreams.org/news2006/0105-07.htm
Abramoff's phony foundation reported giving a large grant to the
Atlanta Waldorf School, but the purported recipient either didn't get
it or concealed the income.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2017
-- Topica Digest --
GLS Bank and Oikocredit to collaborate
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Narnia, Hollywood and Christianity
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Narnia, Hollywood and Christianity
By dan dandugan.com
SV: Atlanta Waldorf School may be entangled in Abramoff scandal
By mattias berndt-warn.dk
Atlanta Waldorf School may be entangled in Abramoff scandal- whistleinthewind
By g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:06:38 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: GLS Bank and Oikocredit to collaborate
Copyright 2006 News Network Anthroposophy Limited (NNA). All rights reserved.
NNA content on this website or distributed by NNA by any other means
may not be republished or redistributed without the prior consent of
News Network Anthroposophy. Users may use and print extracts of NNA
content without permission for their own personal and non-commercial
use only.
For republication or redistribution please contact NNA at:
(mailto:admin nna-news.org)admin nna-news.org.
+ + + + +
GLS Bank and Oikocredit to collaborate
BOCHUM (NNA) - The GLS ethical investment bank in Germany and the
international Oikocredit development cooperative intend to
collaborate more closely in the future. This is the outcome of a
cooperation agreement which was signed in Bochum in December.
Oikocredit is a privately owned cooperative society which is one of
the largest financiers in the microcredit sector for development
financing worldwide. Andreas Neukirch, GLS Bank board member, said
the bank wished to collaborate with Oikocredit because of the
important role played by the cooperative: "It is in many respects a
unique organisation, rather like a development bank. It provides
financial resources for people who would otherwise not have access to
such loans. Oikocredit supports sustainable development."
According to the GLS Bank press office, GLS and Oikocredit agreed the
collaboration in order to increase the range of investment
opportunities they could recommend to their customers. As a result
GLS customers now also have the opportunity to invest in
microfinancing in developing countries alongside the Bank's existing
opportunities in the investment and gift sectors.
Matthias Elstermann from Oikocredit emphasised at the contract
signing the similarity of the objectives pursued by GLS Bank and
Oikocredit: "We look forward to this cooperation because the GLS
Bank, like us, handles money in a different way based on ethical
criteria. We too support the establishment of fair structures and
give precedence to this over profit maximisation."
Oikocredit, which was established in 1975 one year after the GLS Bank
on the initiative of the World Council of Churches, provides
microcredits through regional offices managed by local professionals
in Africa, Asia, Latin America and Europe, who are in direct contact
with borrowers. Loans are awarded in accordance with ethical
criteria: considerations of economic viability are supplemented by
the role of cooperative structures, the involvement of women,
environmental protection and the social effects of the credit.
The loans are financed by equity provided by ecumenical institutions,
but above all private investors who can join a support association
and acquire fixed shares of 200 euros/200 dollars each. These shares
currently attract a dividend of two percent.
Both GLS-Bank and Oikocredit were given the rating "very good" last
year by the independent Ethibel rating agency.
NNA/end/ung/cva
+ + + + +
060106-01EN
6 December 2006
More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:28:03 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Narnia, Hollywood and Christianity
Lisa:
)By the way, I finally got to the cinema to see "The Chronicles of Narnia."
I )absolutely loved it, and so did both of my kids,
Yeah, I'm a drag, aren't I? (G) Can't take me anywhere.
)neither one of whom has had any formal Christian education. (Well, the
older girl )was baptised when she was teensy, but the younger one wasn't,
and neither one has )attended a church service in her life.)
Really? I assume you're not counting weddings and funerals? That's funny,
since I'm this virulent anti-religion person and my son goes to church all
the time, everything from weekly Quaker meeting to a midnight Christmas Eve
service. Another chum does a Live Nativity and we attend that every year.
Lately with his classmates' bar mitzvahs, it seems like my guy is dressing
for church every weekend. And you, who are always speaking up to defend
Christianity - your kids don't partake!
)They thought the story was compelling and thrilling and "got" the battle of
good )against evil.
Well, don't hit me but, that was kind of hard to miss, wasn't it? (G)
)I thought the child actors (especially the little girl who played Lucy
Pevensie) )were generally wonderful
Yeah, she's a doll.
)and Tilda Swinton, who played the white witch, was superb.
I agree.
Her kids are in Waldorf? Gee. Maybe that explains where she got some of her
inspiration for portraying a cruel and cold person who at first pretends to
love children, lures them to an enchanted wonderland with treats and
promises which others can see are thinly veiled threats,
(okay, I'll stop)
As to whether kids will "get" the Christianity explicitly, that wasn't
Lewis's intent anyway. I agree people will take different things from a
movie, book, etc., and people don't necessarily get what the author
intended. But fwiw, here is what Lewis said on his intentions in writing the
Narnia series:
Drat - I looked all over for this quote, to paste in here, and can't find it
again. Never mind - Lewis said, if I recall correctly - and I am willing to
be corrected if anyone knows this is mistaken - I think he said he aimed to
plant the ideas of Christianity so children might be open to it later in
life . . . Sound familiar?!
)Frankly, I don't get the fuss over "Narnia" and the "Christian elements."
To those sympathetic to the Christian elements, it's all good. To those not
really gung-ho for Christianity in the first place, we'd prefer not to have
it kind of snuck up on us, slipped into stories in codes and symbols, told
in images rather than explicitly, immersed in it as children in a delightful
sensory form in preparation to understand the doctrines on a conscious level
years later? Sound familiar??????
)I wonder: do people worry that if kids see the movie, they will want to
become )Christians? If so, that's laughable.
Maybe it's laughable. But it was indeed Lewis's intent, for the books, at
least. (I've heard it said he wouldn't have cared for the movie. Who knows.)
I don't think most kids in Waldorf turn into anthroposophists, either. I
might even say if the anthroposophists are hoping that, it's laughable! I
actually *have* said that here to people sounding a bugle call that Waldorf
is a dangerous conspiracy to convert the world to anthroposophy . . .
It's just that they shouldn't be weasels about it, trying to convert by
stealth.
Now, in looking around on Narnia again - a little mini-obsession I need to
shake - I found something completely different and (to my obsessive mind)
equally fascinating: a Christian accusation that Narnia is "occult"! Ain't
Christian at all - Narnian Christianity is a ploy to lure children to the
occult. I guess you're right Lisa, it's all in one's perception!
http://www.keepersofthefaith.com/BookReviews/BookReviewDisplay.asp?key=4
It's actually just like the controversy over anthroposophy in Waldorf - the
serious pagans are put off by all the Christianity, while the really serious
Christians think the Christianity is bogus and it's really pagan/occult!!
Diana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:33:29 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Narnia, Hollywood and Christianity
Diana, you wrote,
)Now, in looking around on Narnia again - a little mini-obsession I need to
)shake - I found something completely different and (to my obsessive mind)
)equally fascinating: a Christian accusation that Narnia is "occult"! Ain't
)Christian at all - Narnian Christianity is a ploy to lure children to the
)occult. I guess you're right Lisa, it's all in one's perception!
One possibly occultist detail I noticed was that the four crowns were
different metals--as in Goethe's The Green Snake and the Beautiful
Lily. As I recall in that tale, the king of "mixed metals" disappears.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 11:51:29 +0100
From: "Mattias" (mattias berndt-warn.dk)
Subject: SV: Atlanta Waldorf School may be entangled in Abramoff scandal
Why would Ambramoff donate to a Waldorf School?
Matt in Denmark
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Dan Dugan [mailto:dan dandugan.com]
Sendt: 6. januar 2006 00:57
Til: waldorf-critics topica.com
Emne: Atlanta Waldorf School may be entangled in Abramoff scandal
Mentioned in this report,
http://www.commondreams.org/news2006/0105-07.htm
Abramoff's phony foundation reported giving a large grant to the Atlanta
Waldorf School, but the purported recipient either didn't get it or
concealed the income.
-Dan Dugan
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 12:22:39 +0100
From: "Linda och Gabriel Arctaedius" (g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se)
Subject: Atlanta Waldorf School may be entangled in Abramoff scandal- whistleinthewind
Now this is some unbiased and level handed investigative reporting on your
part Dan! Seems that the Waldorf school isn't even accredited, so let me get
this straight.Abramoff contacted the tiny Atlanta Waldorf school to offer
them money.because.(?) Perhaps they reflected his orthodox Jewish views.
Help me understand how this scandal works and is supposed to suggest
impropriety on the part of Waldorf schools - are Waldorf schools easily
corruptable? Is that what you really mean to say?
gabriel
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2018
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Atlanta Waldorf School may be entangled in Abramoff scandal-
whistleinthewi
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 09:34:08 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Atlanta Waldorf School may be entangled in Abramoff scandal-
whistleinthewind
Gabriel, you wrote,
)Now this is some unbiased and level handed investigative reporting
)on your part Dan! Seems that the Waldorf school isn't even
)accredited, so let me get this straight.Abramoff contacted the tiny
)Atlanta Waldorf school to offer them money.because.(?) Perhaps they
)reflected his orthodox Jewish views. Help me understand how this
)scandal works and is supposed to suggest impropriety on the part of
)Waldorf schools - are Waldorf schools easily corruptable? Is that
)what you really mean to say?
I thought it was worth reporting here that an allegation has been
made in the press--that's all. I don't know whether any of it is
true. I'm interested in finding out what really happened.
Another story:
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/nation/12/15abramoff.html
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2019
-- Topica Digest --
Apologies again & some other stuff
By paul paulgeorghiades.wanadoo.co.uk
RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
By diana.winters verizon.net
Why Not Gabriel...?
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:56:54 +0200
From: "Paul Georghiades" (paul paulgeorghiades.wanadoo.co.uk)
Subject: Apologies again & some other stuff
Dear Waldorf Critics,
Happy New Year!
I have been away so much since July that I have had no chance to do anything I had put myself up for. Specifically: to do some physics experiments & get back to Dan; to respond to Diana on literacy teaching (the main hold up is to get the info about mainstream qualifications of our learning support teachers, because I haven't been around the school - I'm on my sabbatical year); to put up something about temperaments that doesn't tell you that phlegmatics like to munch (I do, though).
I have thought about much that I've read at WC & carried lots of it around mentally while visiting other schools, and observing my own from the outside. One area I'd like to discuss here sometime would be the issue of emotional/spiritual over-investment Waldorf schools seem to hoover up from teachers and parents alike and the cycles of disillusionment and illusion this can generate in everyone. People who love it all, come what may, and can't tolerate any mention of imperfection; people who leave embittered, stay angry for years after and will concede no value worth mentioning (well, some of the colours on the walls were quite pretty).
But I feel so genuinely obligated to deal with what I kept promising that I want to stay out of all else until I can clear that. BUT: I'm now off back to Romania until June and will unsubscribe till then as I can't trawl the new stuff OR get much done on the old promises with quick visits to the internet cafe.
A final thought: one view of anthroposophy would be that it consists of a spectrum of inner exercises out of which an individual might construct a path of spiritual development. Fully accomplished, those exercises would lead the person to being able to check Steiner's assertions. Would one of you like to try approaching anthroposophy by doing the exercises along with me & occasionally comparing notes? I'm a very lazy person who finds it hard to do much of this in a really consistent way, but a skeptical companion would be
welcome. I don't think it will turn either of us into racists or fascists - unless we are already inclined that way...
I won't unsubscribe for another few days.
PS. A French research scientist was awarded an IGNOBEL prize (you know about these?) for showing that water has memory. So far as I know these are spoof prizes awarded by real research scientists to other real research scientists for valid but utterly trivial research - like the exact amount of tea needed to saturate a biscuit before it crumbles into the mug when you try to lift it to your mouth. But that water has memory - do you see the implications for homeopathy? Can anyone point me to a source for this? I read it in a flier for a book club a couple of years ago and thought no more about it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 23:03:52 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
Hi, Paul.
)I have been away so much since July that I have had no chance to do
)anything I had put myself up for. Specifically: to do some physics
)experiments & get back to Dan; to respond to Diana on literacy teaching
)(the main hold up is to get the info about mainstream qualifications of our
)learning support teachers, because I haven't been around the school - I'm
)on my sabbatical year)
Have you considered phoning or e-mailing someone at the school? If not, I
guess we can wait from July of 2005 till July of 2006 for this information.
There were lots of other questions - but let's do them in '07 :)
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 23:03:52 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
Hi, Paul.
)I have been away so much since July that I have had no chance to do
)anything I had put myself up for. Specifically: to do some physics
)experiments & get back to Dan; to respond to Diana on literacy teaching
)(the main hold up is to get the info about mainstream qualifications of our
)learning support teachers, because I haven't been around the school - I'm
)on my sabbatical year)
Have you considered phoning or e-mailing someone at the school? If not, I
guess we can wait from July of 2005 till July of 2006 for this information.
There were lots of other questions - but let's do them in '07 :)
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 23:03:52 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
Hi, Paul.
)I have been away so much since July that I have had no chance to do
)anything I had put myself up for. Specifically: to do some physics
)experiments & get back to Dan; to respond to Diana on literacy teaching
)(the main hold up is to get the info about mainstream qualifications of our
)learning support teachers, because I haven't been around the school - I'm
)on my sabbatical year)
Have you considered phoning or e-mailing someone at the school? If not, I
guess we can wait from July of 2005 till July of 2006 for this information.
There were lots of other questions - but let's do them in '07 :)
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 23:06:58 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
Oh, great. First posts delay for a week, now posts appear instantly, in
triplicate. Tell me this isn't somebody's idea of a cute joke on the Waldorf
critics!
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:29:04 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Why Not Gabriel...?
Happy New Year Gabriel!
Glad to see you back at this discussion list. I hope that one of your New
Years resolutions is to attempt to resolve issues stemming from odd comments
you make at this list. For example, you ignored many of my requests for
clarification (I believe you thought I wrote "bullshit" at one point) last
year and here's hoping for clarity in communication this year.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2020
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 2020
By g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se
RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: Why Not Gabriel
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:05:33 +0100
From: "Linda och Gabriel Arctaedius" (g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se)
Subject: Re: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 2020
Happy New Year Gabriel!
Glad to see you back at this discussion list. I hope that one of your New
Years resolutions is to attempt to resolve issues stemming from odd comments
you make at this list. For example, you ignored many of my requests for
clarification (I believe you thought I wrote "bullshit" at one point) last
year and here's hoping for clarity in communication this year.
-Walden
------------------
That sure sounded passive aggressive, Walden.
..and I haven't been away at all. I ignore posts that are irrelevent, a
practice many have on this list.
Gabriel
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 08:39:03 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
I'm guessing we'll get all that information from Paul around the time Ian
substantiates this claim from last fall:
"But speaking of something other than eurythmy - there is
'proof', if you wil,l that bio-dynamic agriculture 'works'. Not just that
the food grows and you can eat it, but that it has special cellular and
structural characteristics that distinguish it from either conventional
or organically grown food. If you want to see the published works I
can direct you to them. I know the man who does the research."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 10:02:29 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Why Not Gabriel
Gabriel wrote:
)That sure sounded passive aggressive, Walden.
)..and I haven't been away at all. I ignore posts that are irrelevent, a
)practice many have on this list.
I wonder if you might be spending too much time thinking about how something
"sounds" as opposed to what is actually written?
What is relevant and important in any discussion is . . . clarity. For
example, when you commented on something that I wrote as being "bullshit" it
would be relevant to both of us if you explained where you saw the bullshit.
I will happily consider your thoughts about what you perceive as BS but I
unless you explain yourself, I will never know. Does that make sense?
Speaking of clarity - it helps if the subject line stays the same in these
threads. Eg. "Why Not..." as opposed to "Digest...." Thanks.
-Walden
Walden wrote:
))Happy New Year Gabriel!
))Glad to see you back at this discussion list. I hope that one of your New
))Years resolutions is to attempt to resolve issues stemming from odd
comments
))you make at this list. For example, you ignored many of my requests for
))clarification (I believe you thought I wrote "bullshit" at one point) last
))year and here's hoping for clarity in communication this year.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2021
-- Topica Digest --
Spirituality places one above the law
By gideonmills yahoo.com
Benveniste's ignobel prizes
By feetapparel hotmail.com
RE: 'So you'd like to... know if you qualify as NewAge++'
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
By pstaud hotmail.com
Harvey Bornfield
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: Why Not Gabriel
By pstaud hotmail.com
St Michael a volcano?
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:41:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com)
Subject: Spirituality places one above the law
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2006/0108/local/stories/01local.htm
I haven't posted here in quite some time. Someone sent this link to me today. What comes through this article and its quotes of the Waldorf parents perfectly mirrors what I have heard from and experienced with the Pleasant Ridge Waldorf School parents, students, teachers and administrators. They truly believe that because they are "spiritual" beings, that they need not abide by the law. Note that according to the quotes in this article, the parents admit to committing welfare fraud (a felony in Wisconsin that can also be federally charged), i.e. the non-earned income they apparently are not reporting would place them far outside being eligible for food stamps. If they are indeed receiving food stamps, then they are required to very actively search for employment; the mother's statement implying that she is not doing that, would further disqualify them from receiving food stamps. In addition, a 21 year old having sex with a 16 year old is committing a criminal act in every
state of which I am aware.
What I find classic and typical of the attitudes of the Waldorfers I know is the statement, "Johnson and Pancoast say they are very different from most of the people living on the street." The anthrop belief that they are somehow better those who are poor not by choice really seethes with the "karmic" esoteric elitism that is the hallmark of Waldorf. Also, note that this family is not "living on the street." Then there are the quotes from the Waldorf teacher exemplifying the Waldorf attitude that it is the surface look of things that counts, which runs directly counter to what they espouse to believe in.
Deborah
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:49:11 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Benveniste's ignobel prizes
Paul asked about Jacques Benveniste.
Info about Jacques Benveniste's TWO ignobel prizes can be found at
http://www.improbable.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html
from which I have taken
1997
CHEMISTRY
Jacques Benveniste of France, for his homeopathic discovery that
not only does water have memory, but that the information can be
transmitted over telephone lines and the Internet.
[NOTE: Benveniste also won the 1991 Ig Nobel Chemistry Prize.]
[REFERENCE:"Transatlantic Transfer of Digitized Antigen Signal by
Telephone Link," J. Benveniste, P. Jurgens, W. Hsueh and J. Aissa,
"Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology - Program and
abstracts of papers to be presented during scientific sessions
AAAAI/AAI.CIS Joint Meeting February 21-26, 1997"]
1991
CHEMISTRY
Jacques Benveniste, prolific proseletizer and dedicated
correspondent of "Nature," for his persistent discovery that
water, H2O, is an intelligent liquid, and for demonstrating to his
satisfaction that water is able to remember events long after all
trace of those events has vanished.
The original articles, comment and correspondence in Nature are well worth
reading. Some of these are available via links from the Wikipedia article on
Benveniste.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Benveniste
See you, Peter
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:35:10 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: 'So you'd like to... know if you qualify as NewAge++'
I thought this was both funny and perceptive. I especially liked the
connection to right-wing libertarianism, which is not often drawn but is
important in some quarters of the alternative spiritual milieu. And of
course the final rubric, "Your Friends Are All White".
Speaking of book recommendations, two brand new titles came to my attention
recently:
Karla Poewe, New Religions and the Nazis, is a study of the 'German Faith
Movement' of Jakob Hauer, who has been the subject of occasional discussion
on this list over the years (he was a tenacious adversary of anthroposophy,
for all the wrong reasons). Sharon Lombard recommended Poewe's work highly;
Poewe has been researching Hauer for some time. If I have an opportunity to
look through her new book, I will try to give a brief report here. I have
partly changed my mind about Hauer over the past two years, after reading
through the existing scholarship on him and his relationship to
anthroposophy, and I will try at some point to summarize that material as
well.
Thomas Trautmann, The Aryan Debate, is a large anthology including
selections from the eighteenth century to the present, on the very topic
that came up here last month (Romila Thapar's work is included as well). It
is arranged in an easily navigable fashion, and should be a welcome resource
to anyone who is still trying to figure what they think about the Aryan myth
and the Aryan invasion thesis.
Greetings to all,
Peter Staudenmaier
Barnaby McEwan wrote:
)Happy New Year, eveyone.
)
)http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/1FYGGVUOFRM6A/ref%3Dcm%5Fr8n%5Fsylt%5Ftop%5Ftv%5Fdp/002-4653293-6038405
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:55:48 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Apologies again & some other stuff
Paul Georghiades wrote:
))A final thought: one view of anthroposophy would be that it consists of a
))spectrum of inner exercises out of which an individual might construct a
))path of spiritual development. Fully accomplished, those exercises would
))lead the person to being able to check Steiner's assertions. Would one of
))you like to try approaching anthroposophy by doing the exercises along
))with me & occasionally comparing notes? I'm a very lazy person who finds
))it hard to do much of this in a really consistent way, but a skeptical
))companion would be
))welcome. I don't think it will turn either of us into racists or fascists
))- unless we are already inclined that way...
Hello Paul,
if you mean comparing notes in a public forum, on this list or elsewhere, I
am happy to oblige. We could begin with Knowledge of Higher Worlds, or some
other source of your choosing. Since similar suggestions have arisen here in
the past, it may be worth pointing out that while engaging in such practices
can be a useful way to sort out accurate from inaccurate readings of
Steiner's teachings, this approach is not necessary to understanding
anthroposophy as such. Indeed there is, thankfully, no general requirement
that analysts of a given phenomenon personally engage in the practical
methods associated with that phenomenon (to understand Leninism, for
example, it is not necessary to practice cadre building or engage in
centralist decision making, something of a relief to non-Leninists). Looking
forward to a reply,
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:20:59 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: Harvey Bornfield
Can't vouch if it's true, but according to folks on A_T, Harvey Bornfield
died. How sad!
He went by "earlyfire" sometimes on this list and elsewhere.
Diana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:45:46 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Why Not Gabriel
Hi Gabriel, you wrote:
)I haven't been away at all. I ignore posts that are irrelevent, a practice
)many have on this list.
I sometimes follow the same practice, and would be interested to hear more
about what counts as relevant in your view. In your last contribution to the
list a few weeks back, you began by claiming special insight into
anthroposophy, then reversed yourself and claimed only personal experience
with anthroposophy, without changing your original substantive assertions on
the matter. This was a thread that you began with some vigor, and then
abandoned without explanation. I take it that the subject itself remains
relevant to you, and I encourage you to explain again what you were trying
to say in the first place. You alse indicated some interest in esoteric
schools other than Steiner's, and if that topic continues to strike you as
relevant, it could be useful to include some sort of comparative framework
for discussions of anthroposophy. I invite you to offer suggestions along
these lines, or I'd be happy to provide some. Looking forward to a reply,
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 06:17:43 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: St Michael a volcano?
It has been suggested that St Michael was a volcano. See
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20060109/stmichael_his.html
See you, peter
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2022
-- Topica Digest --
FW: Spirituality places one above the law
By diana.winters verizon.net
Walden
By g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se
Re: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 2022
By g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se
RE: Benveniste's ignobel prizes
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Google Alert - Rudolf Steiner
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: Walden
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Admin: ad hominem warning to Gabriel [Re: Walden]
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
By paul paulgeorghiades.wanadoo.co.uk
Apologies for apologies, Diana
By paul paulgeorghiades.wanadoo.co.uk
Thank you, Peter F!
By paul paulgeorghiades.wanadoo.co.uk
PUBLIC WALDORF SCHOOLS CHURCH/STATE CASE APPEALED
By secretary waldorfcritics.org
Allergic disease and sensitization in Steiner school children
By barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:54:36 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: FW: Spirituality places one above the law
I just noticed that this post from Deborah is a blank on the web site. It
came through fine in my e-mail, but I'm going to send it to the list again
in case others weren't able to read it. (My personal take on it is that
while it is a disturbing story, it probably doesn't say that much about
Waldorf. The kid is going to a public school. The teacher is if anything to
be commended for trying to support this child.)
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2006/0108/local/stories/01local.htm
I haven't posted here in quite some time. Someone sent this link to me
today. What comes through this article and its quotes of the Waldorf
parents perfectly mirrors what I have heard from and experienced with the
Pleasant Ridge Waldorf School parents, students, teachers and
administrators. They truly believe that because they are "spiritual"
beings, that they need not abide by the law. Note that according to the
quotes in this article, the parents admit to committing welfare fraud (a
felony in Wisconsin that can also be federally charged), i.e. the non-earned
income they apparently are not reporting would place them far outside being
eligible for food stamps. If they are indeed receiving food stamps, then
they are required to very actively search for employment; the mother's
statement implying that she is not doing that, would further disqualify them
from receiving food stamps. In addition, a 21 year old having sex with a 16
year old is committing a criminal act in every
state of which I am aware.
What I find classic and typical of the attitudes of the Waldorfers I know
is the statement, "Johnson and Pancoast say they are very different from
most of the people living on the street." The anthrop belief that they are
somehow better those who are poor not by choice really seethes with the
"karmic" esoteric elitism that is the hallmark of Waldorf. Also, note that
this family is not "living on the street." Then there are the quotes from
the Waldorf teacher exemplifying the Waldorf attitude that it is the surface
look of things that counts, which runs directly counter to what they espouse
to believe in.
Deborah
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:07:00 +0100
From: "Linda och Gabriel Arctaedius" (g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se)
Subject: Walden
I wonder if you might be spending too much time thinking about how something
"sounds" as opposed to what is actually written?
What is relevant and important in any discussion is . . . clarity. For
example, when you commented on something that I wrote as being "bullshit" it
would be relevant to both of us if you explained where you saw the bullshit.
I will happily consider your thoughts about what you perceive as BS but I
unless you explain yourself, I will never know. Does that make sense?
Speaking of clarity - it helps if the subject line stays the same in these
threads. Eg. "Why Not..." as opposed to "Digest...." Thanks.
----------------------
Thank you for all the tips Walden, but I will keep calling them EXACTLY the
way I see them, if that is alright with you.
In general, anthroposophy is less about controlling others and having some
insight into your own behaviour. If you honestly do not believe that you
neither purposely write passive aggressive posts nor have the stink of bs
wafting out you mouth, then you can also ignore my irrelevant posts. You are
free.
On the other hand, if you want to look at yourself in the mirror, go right
ahead. You are free.
Look, I changed the heading to YOUR name instead! I am free.
Thanks.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:10:54 +0100
From: "Linda och Gabriel Arctaedius" (g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se)
Subject: Re: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 2022
Peter,
I mean exactly as I wrote previously. The initiations into anthroposophy are
like all mystery school: they are private. It is pointless for me to share
my inner experience on this critic's list. I am the last person to be
contradictory as anyone who knows me would verify.
Gabriel
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:35:25 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Benveniste's ignobel prizes
These are hysterical, this provides endless ways to procrastinate - as if I
needed more reasons to procrastinate - as it goes back several years.
I notice that in 1993 the idea of a television in a car was considered a
joke. Looking at new cars recently, we thought it was a joke when one car
had a sign on it saying it had 10 TV's in it. But it really did - a van with
a screen for each passenger. It also had two Playstations.
Diana
)Paul asked about Jacques Benveniste.
)Info about Jacques Benveniste's TWO ignobel prizes can be found at
)http://www.improbable.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:12:27 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Google Alert - Rudolf Steiner
Did you get this one, Dan? Check out the South African Journal of Natural
Medicine article. 3 references: two to other articles from the same
"scientific journal," and the third is: Steiner R. Curative Education.
London: Rudolf Steiner Press, 1972.
Breaking news in 2006!
I think I need to put this on critics.
Diana
Highly
(http://www.naturalmedicine.co.za/sajnm_main/article.php?story=2005122013250
2154) sensitive children Part 2 -- Care of the sensitive child
The South African Journal of Natural Medicine (subscription) - South Africa
... South African Journal of Natural Medicine 2004; 15: 54 - 59. 3. Steiner
R. Curative Education. London: Rudolf Steiner Press, 1972.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:45:46 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Walden
Gabriel wrote:
)Thank you for all the tips Walden, but I will keep calling them EXACTLY the
)way I see them, if that is alright with you.
Sure that is more than alright with me. I welcome such an approach in any
discussion. The problem is, of course, that you do not come close to calling
things "exactly" the way you might see them. That is my point, Gabriel.
)If you honestly do not believe that you neither purposely write passive
aggressive posts nor have the stink of bs
)wafting out you mouth, then you can also ignore my irrelevant posts. You
are
)free.
And here you prove my point. Aside from being rude, you are miles away from
explaining "exactly" what you think about any particular subject or what I
have written. Again, I am willing to reconsider my views based on your ideas
and reflections but comments like the above take away from that possibility
and only leave me wondering why you joined this discussion list in the first
place.
In real life, during a discussion with friends or acquaintances, do you
listen to various points of view/experiences and then tell people they are
passive aggressive and full of bs . . . or do you attempt to discuss the
ISSUES?
)On the other hand, if you want to look at yourself in the mirror, go right
)ahead. You are free.
Did you know that mirrors are frowned upon in Waldorf schools? Interesting
and worthy of discussion, perhaps . . . .
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:27:30 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: ad hominem warning to Gabriel [Re: Walden]
Gabriel, you wrote,
)If you honestly do not believe that you neither purposely write
)passive aggressive posts nor have the stink of bs wafting out you
)mouth, then you can also ignore my irrelevant posts.
Walden asked you a fair question: explain what it was in his post
that you thought was "bullshit." Instead of clarifying your position,
you made comments about him. Please address your posts to the topics
being discussed, not the personalities of your fellow subscribers.
)Look, I changed the heading to YOUR name instead! I am free.
Free to inconvenience the other subscribers, but I hope you will
change your ways. Web and email discussions are organized by
"threads." Mail reading software can sort messages by subject,
helping users to read the discussion of a topic in order. Thus it's
helpful to maintain a discussion thread by maintaining the subject
line unchanged, and equally helpful to change the subject when the
discussion has gone somewhere else.
Digest subscription mode is useful for lurkers. If you intend to
participate in the discussion, I recommend you change your
subscription to individual messages. Then you won't have to manually
edit out the other posts and change the subject line of your reply. I
can help you with this if you wish.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:22:41 +0200
From: "Paul Georghiades" (paul paulgeorghiades.wanadoo.co.uk)
Subject: RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
I agree, of course, that you don't have to seek revolution to engage in a serious study of Marx, and nor do you have to seek involution to engage in a serious study of Steiner. However, one could ask whether a territory exists separate from the map. If one begins with the assumption that there is no such territory then the map is already fictional or academic. If there might be a territory it's reasonable to ask how one gets there so that one could hope to compare map and territory.
It's still perfectly reasonable to stick with assessing the map, but then the reader should also clearly state their own philosophical placement.
I have no gripe with quoting Steiner as racist. The words are preserved in the public domain and are properly open to any reading from any position. My questions are 1) whether Steiner actually was racist even in the way someone like the appalling Italian was; 2) whether Steiner's words must mean that anthroposophy is a racist philosophy/belief system/sect/cult by definition 3) whether anthroposophical organisations practise and perpertrate racism (the Waldorf Kindergartens in South African townships, for example). 3) is especially interesting in light of the interest in anthroposophy in practice in Asia, Africa and Latin America, particularly Brazil.
More generally still, is it even possible, after the horrors and genocides of the late 19th and 20th centuries, to speculate about racial difference and cultural evolution? My feeling is that it is not, that our minds are so aware of the real dangers and real monsters that have been unleashed, that we have to leave this alone for a long time to come. And it would do no harm at all for the anthroposophists to acknowledge this.
I do believe that you get out what you put in. If you want to be a racist anthroposophist you'll find grist for your mill. If you want to celebrate global diversity you'll find the "Michael impulse" thread to help your explorations.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:43:02 +0200
From: "Paul Georghiades" (paul paulgeorghiades.wanadoo.co.uk)
Subject: Apologies for apologies, Diana
I know how it looks - put him in a corner and he vanishes. To give you serious replies does take me a long time: I guess you'll still be here when I get back, though won't you? One thing I checked out was whether I could get a copy of the Dutch assessment manual through the shop at the AWSNA website, or the similar British schools site. No joy there, otherwise I'd have offered you a late Christmas present.
And lose-lose is not a great motivator. I take so long and you can poke a bit of fun; I come up with a reply eventually and it won't satisfy you in any case. All the same, in the immortal worlds of Richard Nixon, "I'll be back..." I don't suppose he flew away on Easyjet.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:24:53 +0200
From: "Paul Georghiades" (paul paulgeorghiades.wanadoo.co.uk)
Subject: Thank you, Peter F!
Thanks for the references for M. Benveniste - I will surely look them up. Diana will tell you that will be in 2008 the way I operate, but I will get there one day!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:18:12 -0800
From: PLANS Secretary (secretary waldorfcritics.org)
Cc: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: PUBLIC WALDORF SCHOOLS CHURCH/STATE CASE APPEALED
PEOPLE FOR LEGAL AND NONSECTARIAN SCHOOLS, INC. (PLANS)
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
Debra Snell, President
12562 Rough and Ready Highway
Grass Valley, CA 95945
(530) 273-1005 president waldorfcritics.org
Lisa Ercolano, Vice President
220 Gaywood Road
Baltimore, MD 21212-1709
(410) 377-4204 vicepresident waldorfcritics.org
Dan Dugan, Secretary
290 Napoleon St. Studio E
San Francisco, CA 94124
(415) 821-9776 secretary waldorfcritics.org
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, JANUARY 12, 2006
PUBLIC WALDORF SCHOOLS CHURCH/STATE CASE APPEALED
PLANS has filed an appeal with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in
San Francisco of the U.S. District Court's dismissal of its lawsuit
alleging that public funding of Waldorf schools violates the
Establishment Clauses of the constitutions of both the United States
and California.
PLANS alleges that Judge Damrell made erroneous and prejudicial
rulings on witnesses and evidence.
BACKGROUND
Anthroposophy is the spiritual movement behind the world-wide network
of Waldorf schools. All Waldorf teacher training is done at
Anthroposophical seminaries. PLANS alleges that for Establishment
Clause purposes, Anthroposophy is a religious sect. The defendants
claim that it is a philosophy.
Joan Almon, currently General Secretary of the Anthroposophical
Society in America, wrote in the Waldorf Kindergarten Newsletter that
"Waldorf education is centered around the Christ as a Universal Being
who has helped humans in their development from the beginning of
time...Waldorf education strives to create a place in which the
highest beings, including the Christ, can find their home, but it is
not connected to one religion or another."*
PLANS contends that public Waldorf schools are intrinsically and
inseparably based upon Anthroposophy, an occultist sect that split
off from Theosophy in 1912. Curriculum decisions and teacher training
in public Waldorf schools are based on Anthroposophy's
spiritually-based child development model. Publicly-funded use and
reliance upon the doctrines of Anthroposophy impermissibly endorses
that religion in violation of the United States and California
constitutions.
PLANS filed its federal lawsuit in Sacramento on February 11, 1998,
naming as defendants the Sacramento Unified School District, which
operates a "Waldorf Methods" magnet school, and the Twin Ridges
Elementary School District, which has established six
"Waldorf-Inspired" charter schools.
In May, 2001, Judge Damrell dismissed the suit based on lack of
standing. PLANS appealed the decision, and in February, 2003, the 9th
Circuit Court of Appeals confirmed PLANS' right to sue the school
districts as taxpayers and reinstated the case.
The case came to trial on September 12, 2006. PLANS refused to
present its case to protest erroneous and prejudicial rulings on
evidence and witnesses, forcing Judge Damrell to dismiss the case
again.
WHAT IS PLANS?
Former Waldorf parents and teachers concerned about both private and
public Waldorf schools organized PLANS in 1995. It became a
California non-profit corporation in 1997. PLANS' mission is to
provide parents, teachers, and school boards with views of Waldorf
education from outside the cult of Rudolf Steiner, to expose the
illegality of public funding for Waldorf school programs in the US,
and to litigate against schools violating the Establishment Clause of
the First Amendment.
The volunteer board of PLANS includes two public school teachers, one
of whom has received Waldorf teacher training; the former president
of a skeptical society; the founder of a Christian cult information
ministry, and two former Waldorf parents. President Debra Snell was a
director of a private Waldorf school and helped found a Waldorf
charter school. For more information, please see the PLANS web site,
http://www.waldorfcritics.org.
* Almon, Joan. "The Waldorf Kindergarten Movement in North America."
An Overview of the Waldorf Kindergarten: Articles from the Waldorf
Kindergarten Newsletter 1981 to 1992 Volume One. Silver Spring, MD:
Waldorf Kindergarten Association of North America, Inc., 1993, p. 72.
-30-
-Dan Dugan, Secretary
PLANS, Inc.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:06:01 +0000
From: Barnaby McEwan (barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com)
Subject: Allergic disease and sensitization in Steiner school children
Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology. Volume 117, Issue 1, pp
59-66 (January 2006).
)From the abstract:
http://www.jacionline.org/article/PIIS0091674905021287/abstract
) Conclusion
) Certain features of the anthroposophic lifestyle, such as restrictive
) use of antibiotics and antipyretics, are associated with a reduced
) risk of allergic disease in children.
These features are of course not restricted to the lifestyles of
anthroposophists.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2023
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Apologies for apologies, Diana
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
By diana.winters verizon.net
Indigo children?
By diana.winters verizon.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:43:40 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Apologies for apologies, Diana
Paul:
)I know how it looks - put him in a corner
I didn't put you in a corner. You joined the discussion enthusiastically and
made various bold pronouncements. Taking a year to answer questions like
what reading program the school is using is silly.
)and he vanishes. To give you serious replies does take me a long time: I
)guess you'll still be here when I get back, though won't you?
Yes, I will. I am very patient.
)One thing I checked out was whether I could get a copy of the Dutch
)assessment manual through the shop at the AWSNA website, or the similar
)British schools site. No joy there, otherwise I'd have offered you a late
)Christmas present.
This is a manual they are *using at your school* yes? No one has a copy of
it? Anyway, all I'm asking you for is the name of it. If you can look to see
if there is a copy available at this or that web site, then you apparently
know the name of it and probably the authors.
)And lose-lose is not a great motivator.
It's not my job to "motivate" you to post here, Paul. You have chosen to pop
in sporadically, start discussions, then claim to be too busy to particpate
in them. It's like people who call you on the phone and say "Could you hold
on?" as soon as you answer :)
)I take so long and you can poke a bit of fun; I come up with a reply
)eventually and it won't satisfy you in any case.
Now, that kind of "out" I don't respect. You're acting like I sent you on
some kind of research project. You made very simple claims about the program
at your school that it should not be hard to supply basic facts on. You said
your teachers had mainstream credentials, I had no idea it would be
difficult to ask them what kind of credentials, where they got their degrees
etc. I thought they were *teachers at your school*. You claimed they were
using mainstream assessment methods - you alluded to Diane McGuinness. If
they are using a program by Diane McGuinness, the first or second grade
teacher ought to be able to tell you the name of it. (I can guess, but you
were the one claiming it is being used at your school.) You then said your
teachers used a literacy assessment program written by some Dutch Waldorf
teachers. I asked for the name of this book. You have claimed that it will
take from July 2005 to July 2006 to locate this information. A program you
say the school is using.
You claimed in a general way to be doing reading instruction faster, or
perhaps giving it a greater emphasis, than some Waldorf teachers. I asked a
few simple questions like, what were some of the books in your first grade
classroom. This, you can't remember off the top of your head? Anyone who's
*ever* taught first grade would be able to name a couple of the books the
children are reading, ordinarily. Henry and Mudge? Frog and Toad? Come on.
You were certain Dr. Seuss was inappropriate, I wanted to hear what you
thought was appropriate.
Obviously, you are "getting" that I doubt your claims. If you are claiming
that you are deviating from the usual delayed-reading program in some
notable way, it ought not to be difficult to explain how.
It is a typical Waldorf first grade classroom if there are few or no books,
or books with very minimal text, and reading instruction is mainly copying
the letters of the alphabet, and copying and then reciting a few phrases
from the board, from songs or verses or stories the teacher has told.
What books, Paul? What books are they using? What is the reading program and
methods the teachers are using, and what books are the kids reading.
You ought to be able to answer *any parent* who asks this about your school.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:00:14 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
Paul wrote:
)I agree, of course, that you don't have to seek revolution to engage in a
serious study of Marx, and nor do you have to seek involution to engage in a
serious study )of Steiner. However, one could ask whether a territory exists
separate from the map. If one begins with the assumption that there is no
such territory then the map )is already fictional or academic. If there
might be a territory it's reasonable to ask how one gets there so that one
could hope to compare map and territory.
)It's still perfectly reasonable to stick with assessing the map, but then
the reader should also clearly state their own philosophical placement.
Interesting analogy. My take: If I am on a ship, regardless of my philosophy
or whether or not I assume a territory is just around the corner or a
million miles away, as I continue on my journey I will eventually find the
territory. Or not. I will use logic during my travels and all territories
will be mapped and accounted for. If, on the other hand, I boldly announce
to my crew that I see land - "right there!" - and my crew sees nothing but
waves on the ocean, there are a few explanations:
My crew is blind. Or I am blind. Or we are not blind but I have discovered
magic mushrooms in the galley. In any case, we will be mourning the drowning
death of the poor fellow I ordered off the ship to check out the new land I
say I have seen. If I *still* believe the land is there, it could be a
matter of faith. My faith . . . which should be questioned because it
affects other people. One of my crewmen has just died.
)I have no gripe with quoting Steiner as racist. The words are preserved in
the public domain and are properly open to any reading from any position. My
)questions are 1) whether Steiner actually was racist even in the way
someone like the appalling Italian was;
Have you read those words that are preserved in the public domain? If so,
where do you see the real difference between what Steiner wrote and spoke
about and the thoughts of the (Anthroposophist - Scaligero)" appalling
Italian?" I'd really appreciate your take on the myriad of Steiner quotes
we have seen at this list and elsewhere.
)2) whether Steiner's words must mean that )anthroposophy is a racist
philosophy/belief system/sect/cult by definition
Excellent food for thought - thus, this discussion. Unless we can look at
the roots of Anthroposophy and *really* read what was actually written by
the founder of Anthroposophy, we can never claim to understand it. Can one
separate the *difficult" (racist) parts without taking away from the whole?
Can one pretend the *difficult* parts do not affect the whole? Can one
ignore the racism of Steiner and Scaligero and other Anthroposophists and
pretend there is nothing there except love and social renewal, etc?
)3) whether anthroposophical organisations practise and perpertrate racism
(the Waldorf )Kindergartens in South African townships, for example).
I won't deal with that question in depth except to say that - imo - by NOT
acknowledging racist thought in the founder of the movement and his
influential followers (Scaligero, etc.), those organizations are open for
questions like yours (above). What do you think, Paul, about Anthroposophic
Press endorsing and promoting books by Scaligero in the year 2006?
)More generally still, is it even possible, after the horrors and genocides
of the late 19th and 20th centuries, to speculate about racial difference
and cultural )evolution? My feeling is that it is not, that our minds are so
aware of the real dangers and real monsters that have been unleashed, that
we have to leave this alone )for a long time to come. And it would do no
harm at all for the anthroposophists to acknowledge this.
Cultural differences are wonderful and to be celebrated, imo. Adds colour to
the social fabric of humanity. Many people are happy to share their culture
and I am always grateful for such sharing - especially when it arrives with
food! Stating that race is linked to reincarnation, some races are more
advanced than others, skin colour is linked to spiritual evolution, has
nothing to do with evolution. Yes, Anthroposophists and organizations would
do well to acknowledge the *difficult* bits of their leader's lectures and
books.
)I do believe that you get out what you put in. If you want to be a racist
anthroposophist you'll find grist for your mill. If you want to celebrate
global diversity you'll )find the "Michael impulse" thread to help your
explorations.
The Ford Motor Company finally came to terms with Henry's anti-Semitism. The
Catholic Church seems to be acknowledging various issues - especially
involving child abuse. Why not Anthroposophy?
Some things ARE difficult to deal with but by pretending all is well in the
present, we only invite more light into the dusty corners of the past. Past,
present and future are all connected. IMO.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:51:39 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
Paul wrote to Peter S. and Diana butts in.
)I agree, of course, that you don't have to seek revolution to engage in a
)serious study of Marx, and nor do you have to seek involution to engage in
)a serious study of Steiner. However, one could ask whether a territory
)exists separate from the map.
I would think that it's *because* the territory exists separate from the map
that one can study it from so many, and such interesting, angles. Those who
confuse the territory with the map are indignant that anyone is looking at
the map as an interesting object of study in itself.
)If one begins with the assumption that there is no such territory then the
)map is already fictional or academic.
I've often thought if Steiner had expressed himself in fiction or poetry, or
even reported his "findings" as a sort of series of mystical adventures,
without insisting they were Great Cosmic Truths, he might be renowned today
as a creative genius, instead of another dubious guru with ethical skeletons
in the closet. Just a thought.
Anyway, there's nothing wrong with studying a fictional territory or map
thereof. It is as real to some people as any territory they can actually set
their feet in, and what's wrong with that?
)If there might be a territory it's reasonable to ask how one gets there so
)that one could hope to compare map and territory.
Yeah. But there are lots of places, real geographic places and other places,
some of them only in my own head or other people's, that I'll never get to
study by going there in person on an airplane or boat etc. Fortunately it is
possible to study them in other ways.
)It's still perfectly reasonable to stick with assessing the map, but then
)the reader should also clearly state their own philosophical placement.
Sure. All of this seems to me kind of shaky in view of the
epistemological/ontological pronouncements you made last summer, somehow,
but I guess I'd have to go back and look them up to remember. It isn't clear
if you're saying the map and the territory "are" or "aren't" the same thing,
somehow.
I don't think, in any case, that criticism of anthroposophy requires one to
take a position on this. We've heard this here a gazillion times, though
often not stated in your sophisticated jargon - we're often told we "just
aren't spiritual" if we would question anthroposophy; and I think that's all
you're really saying, too. It's irrelevant. The people on this list have a
wide variety of spiritual beliefs, from hard-boiled atheism to deep
religiosity in various forms. (And it isn't always clear from their posts
who is who, so don't be fooled.) Few people here, probably, agree word for
word with Rudolf Steiner, but then, I doubt most anthroposophists agree with
everything he wrote, either. Most of us are willing to say the map is wrong
sometimes. Critics just say so relatively frequently in comparison with
anthroposophists, I think, since in our case, critics are people who are no
longer invested in the social settings where agreeing with or at least
admiring Steiner is required.
I'm sure Peter is going to reply to the rest of this so I'll stop.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:43:12 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: Indigo children?
New York Times has an article on the people who believe their children are
"Indigo children."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/12/fashion/thursdaystyles/12INDIGO.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2024
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: Indigo children?
By ldenike aol.com
Re: Why Not Gabriel
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Indigo children?
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: Indigo children?
By ldenike aol.com
RE: Indigo children?
By barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:00:52 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
Paul wrote:
)I do believe that you get out what you put in. If you want to be a racist
)anthroposophist you'll find grist for your mill. If you want to celebrate
)global diversity you'll )find the "Michael impulse" thread to help your
)explorations.
This slides over the fact that it is so easy to find support for *both* in
anthroposophy. Take it a step further and you have to look at the fact that
these two things - racism and 'celebration of global diversity' - are not
seen as contradictory in anthroposophy! Why is that? What is wrong here?
Anthroposophy is based on a reincarnation scheme which is patently racist.
It is thought that because every individual will reincarnate numerous times
in different races (in order to experience the "tasks" of that race), this
justifies the continuance of racial thinking. Each race has its special
spiritual characteristics, its "mission" in the supposed spiritual progress
of humanity, its strengths and weaknesses. You can thus tell by a person's
skin color, and various other physical characteristics believed (though
sometimes inaccurately) to be tied to race, where they are in their personal
spiritual progression. (It may, of course, be considered indiscreet to talk
about this; but what is telling is that they will *not* give it up.)
We had a devout anthroposophist here not long ago insisting to us that
Steiner was not racist because he taught that you must "overcome your
blood."
This is, of course, "all good." They reject any characterization of this
sort of thinking as racist because they are "tolerant" of everyone; they
don't encourage discrimination. Because you, too, could come back in a lower
race, you are supposed to be tolerant of everyone regardless of race.
*This* is what they mean by characterizing anthroposophy as tolerant and
forward thinking, and since they don't see it as incompatible with
"encouraging diversity" they can't understand how anyone could view this as
racist.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:36:03 -0500
From: ldenike aol.com
Subject: Re: Indigo children?
I read this. While doing so, I kept twirling one finger near my temple and thinking "These people are whacked."
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Sent: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:43:12 -0500
Subject: Indigo children?
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New York Times has an article on the people who believe their children are
"Indigo children."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/12/fashion/thursdaystyles/12INDIGO.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
threads are always welcome.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:16:35 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Why Not Gabriel
Hi Gabriel,
)Peter,
)
)I mean exactly as I wrote previously. The initiations into anthroposophy
)are like all mystery school: they are private. It is pointless for me to
)share my inner experience on this critic's list. I am the last person to be
)contradictory as anyone who knows me would verify.
)
)
)
)Gabriel
I'm glad to hear that you meant what you wrote previously, but it might make
things a bit simpler if you would take a moment to read what you wrote
previously. Regardless of what you meant, and regardless of what kind of
person you are, what you wrote was indeed internally contradictory, which
makes it difficult for anyone else to understand your previous posts. In any
case, I think you have misunderstood the established practice of
anthroposophical initiation (as well as that of other mystery schools, but
we can leave that part aside if you like), and if you could overcome your
reluctance to discuss the matter openly, you might even find new reasons to
admire anthroposophical approaches to esotericism, particularly in
comparison with the available alternatives. But that's up to you.
What is perhaps more relevant in this context is that your assessment of
critical perspectives on anthroposophy (the ones you think are bullshit, for
instance) will remain of little interest to anyone other than yourself
unless you make some effort to substantiate them, and that will indeed
require you to go public with your thinking on the matter. In my experience,
this can also be an excellent source of insight into one's own behaviour,
another expressed interest of yours. I thus encourage you to reconsider your
judgement on the pointlessness of such an endeavor.
Yours for freedom,
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:44:58 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
Hi Paul,
for what it's worth, I really was responding to your invitation to compare
notes on following Steiner's indications for spiritual exercises, and if the
comparison is public, the offer still stands. In any case, thanks for your
reply. You wrote:
)I agree, of course, that you don't have to seek revolution to engage in a
)serious study of Marx, and nor do you have to seek involution to engage in
)a serious study of Steiner. However, one could ask whether a territory
)exists separate from the map. If one begins with the assumption that there
)is no such territory then the map is already fictional or academic. If
)there might be a territory it's reasonable to ask how one gets there so
)that one could hope to compare map and territory.
The territory of spiritual experiences does indeed exist, and I think you
will be hard pressed to find a critic of anthroposophy who begins from the
assumption that it does not. Steiner's maps are in some places very specific
(particularly where the racial and ethnic contours of the territory are
concerned), and have been an ongoing point of comparison for a century now.
I say let's continue the comparison.
)
)It's still perfectly reasonable to stick with assessing the map, but then
)the reader should also clearly state their own philosophical placement.
Yes, that is always a good idea, and one of the useful functions of forums
like this one.
As for your specific questions, both Walden and Diana have already made
several crucial points that I will try not to belabor:
)
)I have no gripe with quoting Steiner as racist. The words are preserved in
)the public domain and are properly open to any reading from any position.
)My questions are 1) whether Steiner actually was racist even in the way
)someone like the appalling Italian was; 2) whether Steiner's words must
)mean that anthroposophy is a racist philosophy/belief system/sect/cult by
)definition 3) whether anthroposophical organisations practise and
)perpertrate racism (the Waldorf Kindergartens in South African townships,
)for example). 3) is especially interesting in light of the interest in
)anthroposophy in practice in Asia, Africa and Latin America, particularly
)Brazil.
I think 3 is interesting no matter where anthroposophy is practiced. On
question 1, Scaligero's racism and Steiner's racism were different in
several ways, but both were forms of racism. If you disagree (it isn't clear
from your formulation above), I'd be interested to hear why. I also think
you might take Scaligero's status within today's anthroposophical movement
more seriously than you appear to here. On question 2, my answer is no.
Anthroposophy is a racist belief system not by definition but according to
Steiner's own statements about race and the attitude of the existing
anthroposophical movement toward these statements. On question 3, the answer
depends centrally on which anthroposophical organizations we look at, as
well as how we understand what it means to perpetrate racism. I would
welcome the opportunity to examine any or all of these questions with you.
)
)More generally still, is it even possible, after the horrors and genocides
)of the late 19th and 20th centuries, to speculate about racial difference
)and cultural evolution? My feeling is that it is not, that our minds are so
)aware of the real dangers and real monsters that have been unleashed, that
)we have to leave this alone for a long time to come. And it would do no
)harm at all for the anthroposophists to acknowledge this.
I think you mean "acceptable" rather than "possible" here (it is clearly
still possible to speculate about racial difference and cultural evolution,
and become a bestselling author in the process), but my real disagreement
with your claim is the "after the horrors and genocides" part. The dangers
of such speculation were clear to some critical observers before the worst
of the horrors and genocides had occurred. More to the point: for
anthroposophists to acknowledge this would mean the explicit repudiation of
the racist aspects of Steiner's teachings, as well as the racist aspects of
the teachings of his anthroosophical followers.
)
)I do believe that you get out what you put in. If you want to be a racist
)anthroposophist you'll find grist for your mill. If you want to celebrate
)global diversity you'll find the "Michael impulse" thread to help your
)explorations.
)
I think the first sentence is mistaken. Consider our original analogy to
Leninism: if you went into Leninist politics with the best of intentions for
freedom, democracy, and personal autonomy, you wouldn't be able to get out
of it some magically transformed kind of libertarian Leninism. You'd either
end up a Leninist and thus abandon your initial intentions, or you'd stay
true to those intentions and leave Leninism behind. Anthroposophy contains
significant and central elements that do not admit of a non-racist
interpretation. Coming to terms with these elements requires more than
simply waving vaguely in the direction of the other, less problematic
elements of anthroposophy. I would be delighted to learn whether you find
that claim accurate or not.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:47:12 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
Diana wrote:
)I'm sure Peter is going to reply to the rest of this so I'll stop.
Please don't! I'm out of the country at the moment with somewhat limited
internet access, and very much appreciated yours and Walden's contributions
in this thread.
Hello to everyone,
Peter S.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:39:05 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Peter S. on Spiritual Exercises
)I'm sure Peter is going to reply to the rest of this so I'll stop.
)Please don't! I'm out of the country at the moment with somewhat limited
)internet access, and very much appreciated yours and Walden's contributions
)in this thread.
But you did reply :) anyway I'll be back later.
diana
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:36:54 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Indigo children?
Indigos . . .
)I read this. While doing so, I kept twirling one finger near my temple and
)thinking "These people are whacked."
Well (G) . . . trying to come up with a kinder explanation, I think we could
say, like most parents they believe their children are special, highly
intelligent, gifted, and talented, and probably gorgeous too. This is
certainly true of my child.
They are taking this to a pathological extreme, however, and it really
worries me for their children. I think there are potentially big problems
down the road for a child who has grown up being told that he is a special
form of evolved humanity, come to "guide" others or "help" others because he
is spiritually superior, being guided by "beings" on another planet etc.
I would just like to tell those parents there are big therapy bills ahead.
It is a little too soon for these kids to be writing their trauma memoirs,
but that day is coming.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:30:28 -0500
From: ldenike aol.com
Subject: Re: Indigo children?
Diana is unquestionably right when she says that, like every parent, these people who have identified their children as "indigo" children simply see their children as gifted, beautiful, talented, intelligent, etc. That's true.
But most parents I know don't go around saying to newspaper reporters that their six month old child "told" them (nonverbally, of course) that he would have difficulty in school. Most parents don't go around claiming their kidlets have violet or indigo "auras" that indicate that they are a special breed apart.
Reminds me of my dear but undoubtedly wacky (but certainly loving and sweet) great aunt, who used to claim she could see people's auras. (She was a member of a cult called "I AM." This cult originated with a couple called the Ballards, who said they were the reincarnation of various historical figures and were in contact with a variety of spiritual "masters," including Saint Germain. As a child, I had to sit in the back seat of my aunt's car and listen as she and her husband -- my step great uncle -- chanted "Keep the violet flame running through me, through me, through me ..." (G)) The I AM people believed meat contained bad karma and that certain colors had preferable effects on people. (Sound familiar?)
Yes, these people in the Times seem to be taking their children's specialness to a ridiculous degree. In fact, I would posit that the whole thing derives from the parents' need to feel special themselves. (As in, "I am the mommy of a special indigo child, come to save the world.")
We all do want to think our children are special, and they are. But few of us tell those children that they are above other people. Some of us just love our children honestly for who they really are: normal, flawed human beings like us.
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Sent: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:36:54 -0500
Subject: RE: Indigo children?
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Indigos . . .
)I read this. While doing so, I kept twirling one finger near my temple and
)thinking "These people are whacked."
Well (G) . . . trying to come up with a kinder explanation, I think we could
say, like most parents they believe their children are special, highly
intelligent, gifted, and talented, and probably gorgeous too. This is
certainly true of my child.
They are taking this to a pathological extreme, however, and it really
worries me for their children. I think there are potentially big problems
down the road for a child who has grown up being told that he is a special
form of evolved humanity, come to "guide" others or "help" others because he
is spiritually superior, being guided by "beings" on another planet etc.
I would just like to tell those parents there are big therapy bills ahead.
It is a little too soon for these kids to be writing their trauma memoirs,
but that day is coming.
Diana
Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
threads are always welcome.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:40:25 +0000
From: Barnaby McEwan (barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Indigo children?
ldenike aol.com wrote:
) Yes, these people in the Times seem to be taking their children's
) specialness to a ridiculous degree. In fact, I would posit that the
) whole thing derives from the parents' need to feel special
) themselves. (As in, "I am the mommy of a special indigo child, come
) to save the world.")
The author of that NewAge++ checklist agrees with you, Lisa, and points
out the risks to the wellbeing of these unfortunate children:
http://mysticbourgeoisie.blogspot.com/2006/01/mood-indigo.html
) I've been tracking this quintessential New Age "development" for a
) couple years now, but it's so weird, and so depressing, that I
) haven't known where to begin trying to describe the phenomenon...
)
) By laying these hare-brained expectations on kids, the New Agers are
) building a whole generation of narcissists. I don't mean stuck-up
) egotists. We're talking about Narcissistic Personality Disorder
) (NPD), in which the child never develops a genuine sense of self
) because he or she is too busy attempting to live out the fantasies
) of a delusional and psychologically abusive parent. This
) requirement to embody by proxy the parent's own grandiose
) "spiritual" dreams of power and glory almost invariably results in
) lasting damage to the child -- and often to the people that child
) will come into contact with as an adult.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2025
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Indigo children?
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Indigo children?
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Indigo children?
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Apologies for apologies, Diana
By diana.winters verizon.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:00:08 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Indigo children?
Apparently George Kuhlewind has a book on the "Star Children":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/21994
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:00:08 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Indigo children?
Barnaby wrote:
)The author of that NewAge++ checklist agrees with you, Lisa, and points
)out the risks to the wellbeing of these unfortunate children:
)http://mysticbourgeoisie.blogspot.com/2006/01/mood-indigo.html
) I've been tracking this quintessential New Age "development" for a
) couple years now, but it's so weird, and so depressing, that I
) haven't known where to begin trying to describe the phenomenon...
)
) By laying these hare-brained expectations on kids, the New Agers are
) building a whole generation of narcissists. I don't mean stuck-up
) egotists. We're talking about Narcissistic Personality Disorder
) (NPD), in which the child never develops a genuine sense of self
) because he or she is too busy attempting to live out the fantasies
) of a delusional and psychologically abusive parent. This
) requirement to embody by proxy the parent's own grandiose
) "spiritual" dreams of power and glory almost invariably results in
) lasting damage to the child -- and often to the people that child
) will come into contact with as an adult.
Boy, I agree, he said just what I think about the "indigo children"
phenomenon. I thought it sounded a little extreme to say they are "abused"
but the more I think about it, I think that's right. I think it is very
damaging to a child to tell them they are superior to other people. They end
up actually terrified they are not good enough, as there is no way to live
up to the expectations, and it's just as bad as constantly putting a kid
down. Sorting out why your parents did this to you would be very difficult.
Of course some will never sort it out, just go on believing they are special
and misunderstood. I feel for them but I also feel for the rest of us who
will have to deal with these people as they grow up and take their place in
society.
Apparently anthroposophists have endorsed the "indigo children" thing as
correct according to spiritual science, and naturally, some parents who
believe their children are "indigo" seek out Waldorf schools. A lot of their
childrearing premises are incompatible with Waldorf, so there are probably
some explosive situations there. They are talking about it on A_T, I will
give the link in a minute.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:25:05 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Indigo children?
Barnaby linked us to:
)http://mysticbourgeoisie.blogspot.com/2006/01/mood-indigo.html
This guy also notes the focus on IQ and connects it to the eugenics
movement. Scary, and something I wouldn't have thought of.
I also have the impression this indigo thing is a rather *white* thing.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:17:07 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Apologies for apologies, Diana
Just for what it's worth, Paul, I have indeed tried to identify this
literacy assessment manual or program developed by somebody at a Dutch
Waldorf school. I tried last summer, and I've tried again this week. I am
not just trying to make you look bad. If I had the tiniest hint, an author's
name, a word in the title, etc., I might well locate it. But every
combination of words or phrases that I can think of that might unearth such
a thing, using google, searching European Waldorf-related web sites, has
yielded nothing. I've even just looked for Dutch sounding names at different
web sites!
Truly, if it exists, any tiny hint would be appreciated.
If it is unpublished, on paper and not anywhere on-line, not even discussed
anywhere on-line, that is useful information, too. Again, I am not trying to
be a jerk and make it look like "Well their stuff isn't even published!"
Lots of useful, great material that teachers use is not published. Waldorf
teachers, in particular, are encouraged to create their own teaching
materials, right?
I do, however, think that parents deserve to know that Waldorf is doing its
own thing in this regard. That in itself is important information. The
approach is *very* different (and that is why it is difficult to look up
information on what they are doing). It isn't found in the professional
literature other educators might refer to.
You've got to spoon feed it to people, Paul. Parents need explicit
information on what the Waldorf approach to literacy consists of - not
apologetics like pretending it's "whole language."
Did you ever search "whole language" online? If a parent wants to know what
whole language is, there's enough information online to keep you reading for
20 years. It's highly controversial, but at least nobody's trying to hide
the philosophical basis of what they're doing. Whatever is going on in
Waldorf elementary classrooms is much murkier to parents. The transparency
is not there - the open discussion is not there, the professional critiquing
from outside a closed circle, and the parental feedback are all not there.
Parents often don't *understand at all* what the teacher is doing or why,
and parents are generally shielded from total understanding of the spiritual
motives behind "literacy instruction" in Waldorf.
Diana
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2026
-- Topica Digest --
sophistry
By g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se
RE: Michaela Glockler: War of All
By dan dandugan.com
Re: "Patronizing"
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Michaela Glockler: War of All
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Benveniste's ignobel prizes
By feetapparel hotmail.com
RE: "the elimination of the Judaic virus"
By foncteur yahoo.fr
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:51:09 +0100
From: "Linda och Gabriel Arctaedius" (g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se)
Subject: sophistry
Sophistry is a school few if any anthroposophists find of particular
interest. However, Peter your comments find comfort in her. The work before
a waldorf school is a lot and worth genuine effort, not the effort displayed
by critics here. Fundamentally, The very premise of this list is
questionable.
Peter has accused me of being internally contradictory. After reading Peters
critic of me I wonder what his point is. Blame it on my ineptitude perhaps.
The point of this list is to be sceptical of Waldorf, anthroposophy,
anthroposophical insight and Steiner, not to discuss issues. Claims to
anything else are foolery. There is a level of moral dishonesty that is
obvious to us who read claims made on this list. As I have been accused of
communicative dysfunctions, Peter please explain what I have written which
is contradictory.
Peter writes,
(I) "think you have misunderstood the established practice of
anthroposophical initiation (as well as that of other mystery schools, but
we can leave that part aside if you like)."
.oh no Peter but I don't like. There is a fair amount of arrogance in your
comment so I do expect you to back it up. Peter, please explain yourself
more roundly before expecting others to do your work for you: how have I
misunderstood the established practice of
anthroposophical initiation (as well as that of other mystery schools)?
My opinion is that there is not much meat on the bone of your post Peter. I
am well aware of the initiations into the schooling that Steiner brought. I
am a student in that school. I have a rather good understanding-Standing
Under- of mystery schooling and what initiates experience, and the most
fundamental observation is that it is a private experience. Explain what you
mean by my experience not being my own property, but list property.
Where is my misunderstanding and contradiction? I have not taught you the
fundamentals of Steiner's work, but you would teach me them. Fine.
Also, you accuse me of not reading my own posts. Explain that to me as well.
I look forward to hearing from you. I pray with less sophistry.
Gabriel
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 11:14:25 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Michaela Glockler: War of All
Keith McLean, you wrote (on Dec. 8):
)Real Anthroposophy has something to offer society, I think. It means
)"Wisdom of Man" (or wisdom of humanity), so logically it should
)encompass all human knowledge and experience, with a desire to seek the
)spiritual foundations of this knowledge, and thus experience in full
)consciousness the relationships between things.
I'm so tired of hearing that supposed explanation of what
"Anthroposophy" means. It's a deflection, not an explanation.
Anthroposophy is much more than the roots of the word Steiner chose
as its name. It's a religious and political cult following the
teachings of Rudolf Steiner. -That's- what it meant in the 1920s, and
what it means now.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 11:25:19 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: "Patronizing"
Gabriel, you wrote,
)I think patronizing is called for and appropriate for most
)all of the critics here. Very often the quotes used are followed by
)interpretations of Steiner which prove - without a shadow of a doubt- that
)the poster - after claims of working at this or that school- has lots of
)books but little and I mean little insight. When someone who HAS insight
)explains how to think about these matters, it sounds patronizing but that is
)just the sound in the ear of the insecure listener, not the heart of the
)speaker.
Ah, "insight," that favorite word of Anthroposophists. What Steiner
said isn't an opinion, it's an insight. A book collecting papers from
a Waldorf conference is called "Developmental Insights." And on and
on.
Apparently acceptance of the tenets of Anthroposophy confers insight,
for Gabriel can now explain "how to think." Beware of narcissism.
In a later message you wrote,
)Insight is like porn; you know it when you hear it.
And so is pretentious crap!
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 11:04:36 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Michaela Glockler: War of All
Frank Thomas Smith wrote to Walden (I don't think Frank's still here,
but the archives are forever):
)Your question implies that anthroposophy is utopian, which it is not.
Here's an interesting note that's relevant:
"[I]t remains a widely espoused opinion today that the destructive
ecological practices of modern civilization are a new development.
The popular press frequently carries reports of people who advocate
returning to the balanced and reverential regard they suppose our
ancestors had for the natural world. The Garden of Eden is a primal
myth of Western civilization, and it was preceded in classical
antiquity by the belief in the Golden Age--a time, alas now lost,
when human beings were said to have lived in innocent harmony with
their natural environment.
"Sir Peter B. Medawar (in The Limits of Science, a book of his essys
published in 1984) described this kind of thinking as 'Arcadian.' He
compared the concepts of Utopia and Arcadia and concluded that
Arcadia is closer to the ideal of a Golden Age than are the Utopias
of Thomas More and Francis Bacon. Their Utopias were places where
science-based technology was employed for the melioration of society,
whereas Arcadia 'is the conception farthest removed from Utopia, for
one of its principal virtues is to be pastoral, prescientific and
pretechnological. In Arcadia, mankind lives in happiness, ignorance
and innocence, free from the diseases and psychic disquiet that
civilization brings with it-living indeed in that state of inner
spiritual tranquillity which comes today only from having a
substantial private income derived from trustee securities.'"
[Runnels, Curtis N. "Environmental Degradation in Ancient Greece."
Scientific American. March 1995.]
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:21:34 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Benveniste's ignobel prizes
Diana wrote:
)
)These are hysterical, this provides endless ways to procrastinate - as if I
)needed more reasons to procrastinate - as it goes back several years.
)
)I notice that in 1993 the idea of a television in a car was considered a
)joke. Looking at new cars recently, we thought it was a joke when one car
)had a sign on it saying it had 10 TV's in it. But it really did - a van
)with
)a screen for each passenger. It also had two Playstations.
There is an annual ceremony not far from your place at least from my
perspective. It sounds like a fun night.
There is at least one book.
See you, Peter
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:11:06 +0000
From: Foncteur (foncteur yahoo.fr)
Subject: RE: "the elimination of the Judaic virus"
this is not racism since judaism is not a race but a religion, to which
anybody can convert...
otherwise the Qur'an, who claims in surat 9 verse 5 that "After the
sacred months have expired, you should kill all non muslims wherever you
find them" is racist, and must be forbidden in all civilized countries.
Will you ask for interdiction of Quran and Islam ? I would join to you
in that campaign...
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
)
)
)
) When World War II began in September 1939, Massimo Scaligero published
) his
) views on the spiritual and racial significance of the struggle between
) the
) fascist countries and their foes in an article titled "The heroic task
) of
) the spirit within the racist campaign" (Massimo Scaligero, “Compito
) eroico
) dello spirito nell’azione razzista”, La Vita Italiana, September 1939,
) pp.
) 327-333). In this essay, Scaligero for the first time calls for "the
) elimination of the Judaic virus" in an explicit biological sense. To
) understand the article fully, it is important to keep in mind that
) Fascist
) Italy, in contrast to Nazi Germany, did not adopt an antisemitic policy
) until the fall of 1938, less than a year before the article appeared.
) Scaligero, who went on to become Italy's foremost anthroposophist and
) interpreter of Steiner's doctrines, was part of a relatively small group
) of
) radical antisemites within the Fascist movement who pushed for a strong
) racist line, tied closely to a particular version of mystical
) spirituality,
) and who devoted special efforts to denouncing the Jews and their
) supposed
) agents as a supreme racial and spiritual peril.
)
) The essay begins by addressing yet again the proper role of “the racist
) theme” within “the internal politics of Fascism”. Scaligero argues that
) the
) “correspondence between ethnic values and spiritual values” produces a
) “universality of the hierarchical type”. All of this goes to show “the
) universal validity of the racist idea” (p. 327).
)
) Introducing a theme that will re-appear elsewhere in his work, on the
) first
) page of the article Scaligero also envisions a final solution to the
) ‘Jewish
) problem’, stated in starkly biological terms:
)
) “In all of this, antisemitism represents only a single chapter; once it
) has
) been liquidated through the elimination of the Judaic virus and the
) biological re-integration of Aryan ethnic values, the campaign will
) assume
) much broader proportions in which even sharper forces will be at stake;
) then
) we will have achieved the conditions for engaging in a decisive battle
) against the profane, egalitarian, leveling, and anti-spiritual powers,
) against the promiscuity of values, against satanic materialism, against
) the
) abuses of bourgeois modernity, against the hedonistic and orgiastic
) modern
) world.” (p. 327)
)
) The article then associates democracy, humanitarianism, progress,
) intellectualism, socialism, deceptiveness, sensualism, soullessness,
) materialism, and bestiality with the Jews, describing these phenomena as
)
) “subtly Jewish” and blaming them for the decadence and false ideals of
) modernity (p. 329). Scaligero ridicules the idea that there is any
) contradiction between universalism and racism, and posits the fascist
) view
) of a superior race as the height of universalism (p. 330). “The
) spiritual
) conception of race” combined with “the mysticism of Fascism” will
) preserve
) “the perennial values of the blood” (p. 331). Indeed, for Scaligero
) spiritual strength and racial strength are essentially the same thing:
)
) “To forge the spirit means to prepare the real power of the race. The
) habitual rhetoricians will have to take heed of this, the ones who think
)
) they can dialectically liquidate the Roman spiritual Tradition. This
) Tradition is the pure Aryan heritage, the “solar” legacy of Imperial
) Rome,
) whose essence is anti-egalitarian, antisemitic, heroic, but at the same
) time
) mystical and ascetic. Thus there is no heroism without asceticism, there
) is
) no assertion of the race without action of the spirit.” (p. 331)
)
) Warning that “a masked group of ‘Pharisees’” threatens to obscure “our
) occidental spirituality,” (p. 331) Scaligero declares that the
) antisemitic
) campaign of the fascist regime has not gone far enough and that the
) tradition of western spirituality and “the spiritual ideal of race” are
) still in grave danger from “the final occult forces of Judaism” (p.
) 333). He
) calls on his fellow fascists to take on the stern responsibility of a
) ruthless struggle against the Jews:
)
) “The present correspondence between problems of the spirit and problems
) of
) politics and civilization must lead us to consider our racial dignity
) and
) our antisemitic stance as a profound spiritual responsibility, so that
) our
) movement does not exhaust itself in a merely exterior attitude, but
) imbues
) itself with the capacity to identify and neutralize those subtle forces
) of
) Judaism which act in secret under less suspicious guise. Behind every
) form
) of materialistic opportunism, behind every appearance of political or
) doctrinal camouflage, behind every kind of utilitarianism and
) personalism,
) in every polemical deployment that tries to confuse the terms of the
) vital
) problems of the spirit through the subversion of cultural influences, we
)
) must recognize a Jewish psychological style, orthodox in form and
) corrosive
) in essence, disguised as antisemitic but actually Jewish in its
) innermost
) intention. We must oppose the activity of these subtle and secret forces
)
) with an action that is radical in the inner sense and that can thus also
)
) strike those who are the conscious or unwitting instruments of Hebraism,
)
) those who partake in the Semitic campaign to sow doubt about the essence
) of
) our Roman Tradition, or who try to separate the concept of Romanness
) from
) the concept of metaphysical knowledge, or sunder the concept of the
) Empire
) from the concept of universality. The racist idea must transform itself
) into
) the positive reality of the Second Roman Empire.” (p. 332)
)
) For Massimo Scaligero at the beginning of World War II, even official
) fascist antisemitism wasn't antisemitic enough. As the war went on, "the
)
) elimination of the Judaic virus" in the name of higher spiritual virtues
)
) took on horribly concrete form. As we will see, Scaligero continued to
) use
) this phrase in connection with his call for a stronger "united Aryan
) front"
) of Nazism and Italian Fascism.
)
)
) Peter Staudenmaier
)
)
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2027
-- Topica Digest --
RE: "the elimination of the Judaic virus"
By barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:23:37 +0000
From: Barnaby McEwan (barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: "the elimination of the Judaic virus"
Foncteur wrote:
) this is not racism since judaism is not a race but a religion, to
) which anybody can convert...
Tell Scaligero that. He thought Jews were a race and believed them
inferior. Therefore his writings on Jews (or 'the Judaic virus', as he
styled them) are racist.
I'm no Quranic scholar, but I am aquainted with the fuss anthros make
when a critic exposes a possibly-embarrassing line from one of their
holy books to the light of day. If it's not okay to do that with
anthroposophy, it's not okay to do it with Islam.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2028
-- Topica Digest --
re: study on Steiner school children
By ldenike aol.com
RE: study on Steiner school children
By barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com
RE: sophistry
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: sophistry
By diana.winters verizon.net
on the impossibilty of understanding century old text
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:04:18 -0500
From: ldenike aol.com
Cc: waldorf-survivors-only yahoogroups.com
Subject: re: study on Steiner school children
I haven't been paying as much attention to this list as I should have been lately, so perhaps this has already been discussed. But this came into my work emailbox today via Newswise, a list that disseminates the latest news into newsrooms and PR offices nationwide:
Anthroposophic Lifestyle Reduces Risk of Youth Allergies
Certain features of the anthroposophic lifestyle, such as restrictive
use of antibiotics and fever antipyretics, reduce the risk of allergic
disease in children, according to a new study.
J. of Allergy & Clinical Immunology, Jan-2006
--American Academy of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology (AAAAI)
http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/517323/?sc=dwtp
Lisa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:35:48 +0000
From: Barnaby McEwan (barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: study on Steiner school children
ldenike aol.com wrote:
)
) I haven't been paying as much attention to this list as I should
) have been lately, so perhaps this has already been discussed...
) J. of Allergy & Clinical Immunology, Jan-2006
) --American Academy of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology (AAAAI)
) http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/517323/?sc=dwtp
Noted but not discussed:
http://lists.topica.com/lists/waldorf-critics/read/message.html?mid=1719835154&sort=d&start=30502
I see the press release describes Steiner as a 'scientist'. Gaaaah!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 12:51:46 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: sophistry
Hi Gabriel, thanks for your reply. You wrote:
)Sophistry is a school few if any anthroposophists find of particular
)interest. However, Peter your comments find comfort in her. The work before
)a waldorf school is a lot and worth genuine effort, not the effort
)displayed by critics here. Fundamentally, The very premise of this list is
)questionable.
Sounds like a good topic to me. Can you tell us more about what it is
specifically that you find questionable? Do you mean that you don't like
critique in general, or just when it is applied to anthroposophy?
)Peter has accused me of being internally contradictory. After reading
)Peters critic of me I wonder what his point is. Blame it on my ineptitude
)perhaps. The point of this list is to be sceptical of Waldorf,
)anthroposophy, anthroposophical insight and Steiner, not to discuss issues.
)Claims to anything else are foolery. There is a level of moral dishonesty
)that is obvious to us who read claims made on this list. As I have been
)accused of communicative dysfunctions, Peter please explain what I have
)written which is contradictory.
Sure. The last time you dropped in here, you said that you had special
insight into anthroposophical topics, and that you consider it appropriate
in such instances to explain to others "how to think about these matters"
even if that requires being patronizing. (Please feel free to elaborate on
that claim, or if I misunderstood what you meant, please feel free to
clarify.) I responded to that post, and in your rejoinder the following day,
you retreated from the claim of insight and said only that you have
"personal experience" with anthroposophy. That's perfectly fine with me. The
trouble is that what you challenged in your original post was precisely the
personal experience that others have with anthroposophy. As I explained to
you at the time, your argument thus made little sense. I encourage you to
reformulate it, or expand upon it, as you see fit.
)
)Peter writes,
)
)(I) "think you have misunderstood the established practice of
)anthroposophical initiation (as well as that of other mystery schools, but
)we can leave that part aside if you like)."
)
)
).oh no Peter but I don't like. There is a fair amount of arrogance in your
)comment so I do expect you to back it up. Peter, please explain yourself
)more roundly before expecting others to do your work for you: how have I
)misunderstood the established practice of
)anthroposophical initiation (as well as that of other mystery schools)?
You said that it is meant to be a private affair, and that it would thus be
pointless for you to share your "inner experience" here. I think this is a
misunderstanding of Steiner's approach to initiation, and indeed of the
theosophical tradition as a whole. One of the remarkable characteristics of
anthroposophy as Steiner presented it was its attempt to bridge private and
public.
)My opinion is that there is not much meat on the bone of your post Peter. I
)am well aware of the initiations into the schooling that Steiner brought. I
)am a student in that school. I have a rather good understanding-Standing
)Under- of mystery schooling and what initiates experience, and the most
)fundamental observation is that it is a private experience. Explain what
)you mean by my experience not being my own property, but list property.
I disagree that the metaphor of property is fitting for such cases. Esoteric
traditions usually don't fit easily into those sorts of categories. In any
case, you haven't been shy about saying what you think about some of the
perspectives put forth by critics of anthroposophy. Why hold back when it
comes to initiation? Steiner's indications about how best to approach
initiation are available for all to read. By the way, in the Waldorf school
where you work, do you avoid sharing knowledge with students in the fear
that it will thereby cease to be your property?
)Where is my misunderstanding and contradiction? I have not taught you the
)fundamentals of Steiner's work, but you would teach me them. Fine.
)
I'm not sure if that "fine" is sincere or sarcastic. If you are in fact
unwilling to be "taught" by me on this or related topics, we may well have a
difficult time getting somewhere. I am glad to hear that you know a lot
about anthroposophy and other esoteric strands, and I would be happy to
discuss them with you, but some of the time I am likely to know more about
specific questions than you, so we will probably both need to be taught by
each other. What do you say?
)
)Also, you accuse me of not reading my own posts. Explain that to me as
)well.
I think you would do well to re-read your posts of December 14, December 15,
and January 11, in light of the discussion above.
)
)I look forward to hearing from you. I pray with less sophistry.
)
I'll be back in regular email contact at the end of this week, and will
happily continue our exchange then.
Yours for insight,
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:26:38 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: sophistry
Peter pointed out to Gabriel, regarding anthroposophic "initiation" (and on
the general topic of whether it is cool to only express "personal
experiences" or to be necessarily "patronizing" to the poor slobs who don't
understand anthroposophy the way Gabriel does) -
)You said that it is meant to be a private affair, and that it would thus be
)pointless for you to share your "inner experience" here. I think this is a
)misunderstanding of Steiner's approach to initiation, and indeed of the
)theosophical tradition as a whole. One of the remarkable characteristics of
)anthroposophy as Steiner presented it was its attempt to bridge private and
)public.
May I point out that on this list Gabriel claimed at one point to be able to
tell whether I was an "old soul" or a "new soul." When pressed, he didn't
reply to my inquiry about which I was. Still, this is pretty public.
When Waldorf teachers take on the spiritual guidance of the children in
their classes, claiming to have "insights" into the child's karma, perhaps
intuiting whether the child is an "old" or "new" soul (presumably this
refers, crudely speaking, to how many times previously the person has
incarnated), in my view this is a rather significant "bridge" between the
private and the public.
This is not a matter of individuals' private initiation experiences, or, as
we so often hear, a case where we ought to just "respect other people's
beliefs" and shut up. Wrong - if they are going to claim to be offering a
fantastic form of education for today's children, they need to get a lot
more public about these supposedly private experiences they aim to foist on
our children when the classroom door closes. And they need to be dragged
kicking and screaming to do so, if they are going to turn all coy about it
when pressed, like Gabriel.
Diana
(Gabriel):
"I have a rather good understanding-Standing Under- of mystery schooling and
what initiates experience, and the most fundamental observation is that it
is a private experience. Explain what you mean by my experience not being my
own property, but list property."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:41:29 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: on the impossibilty of understanding century old text
I was reading the following article
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17805214%255E16947,00.html
from which I extracted
"Our aesthetic psychology has remained unchanged since the building of
cities and the advent of writing some 10,000 years ago, which explains why
The Iliad and The Odyssey of Homer, and the Epic of Gilgamesh, remain good
reading today. "
It reminded me of Joel's remarkable claim that we could not understand 100
year old text.
See you, peter
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2029
-- Topica Digest --
Peter
By g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se
RE: sophistry
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
RE: sophistry
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
RE: sophistry
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:25:27 +0100
From: "Linda och Gabriel Arctaedius" (g.pulgar kommunicera.umea.se)
Subject: Peter
"I think this is a
misunderstanding of Steiner's approach to initiation, and indeed of the
theosophical tradition as a whole."
Earlier...
(I) "think you have misunderstood the established practice of
)anthroposophical initiation (as well as that of other mystery schools, but
)we can leave that part aside if you like)."
-------------------
Peter, again, I ask you to explain my misunderstanding. You repeat this
accusation yet again and I ask yet again for an explaination.
Gabriel
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:38:19 +0000
From: Keith McLean (kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au)
Subject: RE: sophistry
Hi Gabriel,
Linda och Gabriel Arctaedius wrote:
)
) Sophistry is a school few if any anthroposophists find of particular
) interest. However, Peter your comments find comfort in her. The work
) before
) a waldorf school is a lot and worth genuine effort, not the effort
) displayed
) by critics here. Fundamentally, The very premise of this list is
) questionable.
As to the question of veracity and