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RE: Defending Steiner
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
RE: Defending Steiner
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
RE: Defending Steiner
By pkcompany netzero.net
RE: Defending Steiner
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
RE: Defending Steiner
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
RE: Defending Steiner
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:06:07 +0000
From: Keith McLean (kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au)
Subject: RE: Defending Steiner
Pete,
Thank you, much appreciated. I think there are various connections which
have subtle meanings in his work, and Steiner at times touches on home
truths about human life.
Thanks,
Keith
Pete Karaiskos wrote:
)
) Keith,
)
) Thank you for this wonderful post. I don't want to step on the toes of
) others who will, no doubt, debate this in detail but in reading the
) quotes and refereneces you have provided, it seems clear to me that what
)
) Steiner is saying is that the individual can rise above his race (or as
) Dottie has said "overcome one's blood")and that when we seek a spiritual
)
) expression of an individual we must confront the individual and not the
) individual's race. I don't necessarily see these passages in conflict
) with the other passages by Steiner that addressed the races themselves
) and not the individual members of those races as spiritual beings. I
) think everyone here understands and appreciates that on a spiritual
) level, and even on an individual physical level, Steiner embraced the
) equality of all men as individuals. But he still had commentary about
) races and racial characteristics that are troubling.
)
) Pete
)
)
) Keith McLean wrote:
) )
) ) Hi Walden,
) )
) )
) ) "You wrote:
) ) "Race is a problemic concept anyway:" (I'm assuming this is a
) ) typo -"problematic")
) )
) ) I'm not trying to be argumentative here but I don't understand that if
) ) "race is problematic, anyway," why did Steiner make "race" such an
) ) important part of Anthroposophy?"
) )
) ) Yep, that was a typo - problematic is the word I intended.
) )
) ) The usage of the word race was the accepted idea/expression and usage of
) )
) )
) ) the time. Racist language was acceptable in Imperialistic Europe of the
) ) 19th/early 20th century. However, at the same time there were those in
) ) Europe who would have disagreed with the outlook expressed by the
) ) langauge, eg. Liberals/Reformists parties, etc. I'm sure it was
) ) difficult to bypass the racist/imperialist dogma which was dominating
) ) the scene at the time.
) )
) ) Before I make comments on your quotations in connection with why Steiner
) )
) )
) ) used the world "race", please have a look at some of Steiner's comments
) ) criticizing racism:
) )
) )
) ) (from: "Some of the roots of antiracism in anthroposophy and Waldorf
) ) education"
) )
) ) [http://www.waldorfanswers.com/AAnthroposophicalAntiracismRoots.htm]):
) )
) )
) ) 1897:
) )
) ) "Value should be attached solely to the mutual exchange between
) ) individuals. It is irrelevant whether someone is a Jew or a German ...
) ) This is so obvious that one feels stupid even putting it into words. So
) ) how stupid must one be to assert the opposite!"
) )
) ) Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) ) (Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, September 1897.
) )
) )
) ) 1900:
) )
) ) "I have never been able to see anti-Semitism as anything except a
) ) view that indicates in those who hold it an inferiority of spirit, a
) ) lack of ability to make ethical judgments and a tastelessness ... that
) ) is an insult to any normal way of thinking."
) )
) ) Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) ) (Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, 1 September 1900.
) )
) )
) ) 1901:
) )
) ) "Anti-Semitism is a mockery of all belief in ideas. It is a mockery
) ) especially of the idea that humanity rises above any specialized form
) ) (tribe, race, nation) in which this humanity expresses itself."
) )
) ) “Anti-Semitism is not only a danger for Jews, it is also a danger
) ) for non Jews. It arises out of a way of thinking that does not seriously
) )
) )
) ) strive for sound, straightforward judgments. Anti-Semitism promotes this
) )
) )
) ) way of thinking. And anyone who thinks philosophically should not just
) ) observe that passively. The belief in ideas will only return to
) ) prevalence if we oppose the contrary unbelief in all areas as
) ) energetically as possible.“
) )
) ) Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) ) (Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, 20 and 27 November 1901.
) )
) )
) ) 1904:
) )
) ) "Other qualities which ... have to be combated [on the path of
) ) spiritual development] are ... the making of distinctions in human
) ) beings according to the outward characteristics of rank, sex, race, and
) ) so forth. In our time it is difficult for people to understand how the
) ) combating of such qualities can have anything to do with the heightening
) )
) )
) ) of the faculty of cognition. But every spiritual scientist knows that
) ) much more depends upon such
) )
) ) matters than upon the increase of intelligence and employment of
) ) artificial exercises. Especially can misunderstanding arise if we
) ) believe that we must become foolhardy in order to be fearless; that we
) ) must close our eyes to the differences between people, because we must
) ) combat the prejudices of rank, race, and so forth. Rather is it true
) ) that a correct estimate of all things is to be attained only wen we are
) ) no longer entangled in prejudice. Even in the ordinary sense it is true
) ) that the fear of some phenomenon prevents us from estimating it rightly;
) )
) )
) ) that a racial prejudice prevents us from seeing into a man's soul. It is
) )
) )
) ) this ordinary sense that the student must develop in all its delicacy
) ) and subtlety."
) )
) ) Knowledge of the Higher Worlds And Its Attainment (GA 10),
) ) written in 1904. Chapter: Some Practical Aspects.
) )
) )
) ) 1919:
) )
) ) "... as regards ... what is independent of our bodily makeup we are
) ) all individually made; each one of us is his or her own self, an
) ) individual. With the exception of the far less important differences
) ) that show up as racial or national differences ... but which are (if you
) )
) )
) ) have a sense for this you cannot help noticing it) mere trifles
) ) by comparison with differences in individual gifts and skills: with the
) ) exception of these we are all equal as human beings ... as regards our
) ) external, physical humanity. We are equal as human beings, here in the
) ) physical world, specifically in that we all have the same human form and
) )
) )
) ) all manifest a human countenance. The fact that we all bear a human
) ) countenance and encounter one another as external, physical human
) ) beings... this makes us equal on this footing. We differ from one
) ) another in our individual gifts which, however, belong to our inner
) ) nature."
) )
) ) Education as a Force for Social Change (in GA 192), Hudson 1997,
) ) lecture of 23 April 1919."
) )
) ) ------
) )
) ) Now, on to the other points:
) )
) ) 1.
) )
) ) "For example, I'd appreciate your comments on only a few of Steiner's
) ) concepts on skin colour and race:
) )
) ) "White humankind is still on the path of absorbing the spirit deeper and
) )
) )
) ) deeper into its own essence. Yellow humankind is on the path of
) ) conserving the era when the spirit will be kept away from the body, when
) )
) )
) ) the spirit will only be sought outside of the human-physical
) ) organization. But the result will have to be that the transition from
) ) the fifth cultural epoch to the sixth cultural epoch cannot happen in
) ) any other way than as a violent battle of white humankind against
) ) colored humankind in myriad areas. And that which precedes these battles
) )
) )
) ) between white and colored humankind will occupy world history until the
) ) completion of the great battles between white and colored humankind.
) ) Future events are frequently reflected in prior events. You see, we
) ) stand before something colossal that - when we understand it through
) ) spiritual science - we will in the future be able to recognize as a
) ) necessary occurrence." (Rudolf Steiner, Die geistigen Hintergründe des
) ) Ersten Weltkrieges. Dornach, 1974 (GA 174b) p. 38)."
) )
) ) - Well, I'm stumped. The use of the terms "yellow" and "white" seem too
) ) crude for Steiner's discourse - I would question the authenticity of
) ) those sentences; also, Steiner was firmly anti-war. Is the source
) ) material translated into English? Where can I find it so as to examine
) ) it for myself? GA 174b is not reproduced online as yet (to my
) ) knowledge), so that makes it harder again to examine where Steiner was
) ) going with the argument.
) )
) ) Incidently, the following is also apparently an excerpt from GA 174b:
) )
) ) "1915:
) )
) ) “The very reason why we are working to reach a world view based on
) ) spiritual science is so that humanity may struggle to free itself from
) ) feelings of merely national concern as opposed to feelings concerned
) ) with humanity as a whole ... so that something may spread to encompass
) ) the whole earth, something that goes beyond all possible
) ) differentiations ...”
) )
) ) Die geistigen Hintergründe des Ersten Weltkriegs (The spiritual
) ) background of the First World War) (GA 174b), Dornach 1994, lecture of
) ) 14 February 1915."
) )
) ) ( - from: "Some of the roots of antiracism in anthroposophy and Waldorf
) ) education"
) ) [http://www.waldorfanswers.com/AAnthroposophicalAntiracismRoots.htm])
) )
) )
) ) 2.
) )
) ) ""Really, it is the whites who develop the human factor within
) ) themselves. Therefore they have to rely on themselves. When whites do
) ) emigrate, they partly take on the characteristics of other areas, but
) ) they die more as individuals than as a race. The white race is the
) ) race of the future, the race that is working creatively with the
) ) spirit."
) ) [Steiner, March 3 1923, lecture to the workmen (GA 349 p. 67)]"
) )
) ) - Firstly, I think there's a mistake here: GA 349 is not "Lecture to the
) )
) )
) ) workmen", but "Lecture I: The WHITSUN Mystery and its Connection with
) ) the Ascension" [check
) ) http://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/index.php?ga=GA0349].
) )
) ) Well, this again seems too crude a statement for Steiner. This also
) ) contradicts his other statements which supported the unity of humanity.
) ) Which leads to the question: How authentic are they? The only other
) ) thing I can think of that might remotely explain his emphasis here on
) ) race terms is that his audience were not presupposed to ornate
) ) vocabulary - I'm guessing he was communicating to manual labourers,
) ) mechanics etc. in his address. That said, this does not explain his
) ) sympathetic and emphatic anti-racist statements.
) )
) )
) ) 3.
) )
) ) ""I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
) )
) )
) ) them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
) ) Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
) ) children will be born in Europe" (from Steiner's "Health and
) ) Illness").""
) )
) ) - Can't find "Health and Illness" - where do I source that? Well,
) ) "negro" was a standard term then; and, I would like further explanation
) ) of what Steiner was endeavouring to do here - that is, if this source is
) )
) )
) ) genuine.
) )
) )
) ) 4.
) )
) ) ""No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through using the French
) )
) )
) ) language...It is also possible at the present time that the French will
) ) even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept their
) ) language going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people
) ) are doing to other people, the frightful cultural brutality of
) ) transplanting black people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of
) ) all. This has an incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This
) ) will substantially add to French decadence. The French nation will be
) ) weakened as a race." [Steiner, Rudolf.
) ) *Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School in Stuttgart 1922
) ) to 1923: Volume Three: Being the end of the Fourth Year*. (1923) Trans.
) ) Pauline Wehrle. Forest Row, U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship
) ) Publications, 1988, pp. 87-88.]"
) )
) ) - I think the fault with this passage is that it takes a very clinical
) ) view of human cultures. I think what you're seeing here is a bit of
) ) intellectualism at work and cultural bias. Also, I believe that there's
) ) a traditional animosity between Germany and France (at least in the
) ) past), and the fact that Steiner is speaking to a German audience (well,
) )
) )
) ) I assume so, it being Stuttgart) both help explain at least some of the
) ) high-handedness.
) )
) ) Regarding the "black people and Europe" dichotomy attitude conveyed
) ) here, it is not clear that Steiner is being dismissive of blacks. What
) ) would be more likely is that he was concerned about the cultural and
) ) attitudinal norms of African or Africanised cultures taking Europe down
) ) a materialistic road (that it was already heading down). Personally, I
) ) disagree with him: race is not a factor that should be of concern -
) ) societal ethics and values as applied to humanity globally is. He should
) )
) )
) ) have focussed on the relevant issues.
) )
) ) When he discusses races in relation to the spiritual timelines ofth
) ) "Epochs", he's talking about a progression of human development through
) ) different paradigms. Many of the ancient civilizations in Europe, Africa
) )
) )
) ) and Asia are considered expressions and applications of these
) ) developments. So, confusing as the description might appear, he means in
) )
) )
) ) this context not biological race but something more akin to cultural
) ) identity. At all times, Rudolf Steiner is concerned with the world of
) ) the spirit, inner development, and what this means for life on earth.
) )
) ) So, race is a problematic concept and should be applied carefully when
) ) used. I quoted from the Encarta Encyclopeadia in my last post regarding
) ) the concepts of race and ethnicity, which clearly showed that race is
) ) not a very useful concept; whilst ethnicity on the other hand is more
) ) applicable descriptively and analytically. Our knowledge of social
) ) reality changes, especially when science has an input: what was certain
) ) knowledge at one time can be defunct the next, based on the exploration
) ) of the area in question. Life is change and history is change.
) )
) ) I might say that the humanities departments of universities,
) ) philosophers and other thinkers often wonder about the discourse on
) ) social issues in the public, how things can be distorted and
) ) oversimplified. I can see the difference between the political and
) ) ideological use of an idea, and a dispassionate reflective approach on
) ) the same thing. In my view, we need to be more circumspect. Steiner and
) ) his work is not a formal part of academia (and some would have problems
) ) with his ideas), but he was exposed to it and thus he brings discipline
) ) from that experience to his work. If his ideas are wrong in some areas,
) ) it was not because of want of intelligence and awareness. It is
) ) repeatably clear also that he values compassion.
) )
) )
) ) Thanks,
) )
) ) Keith
) )
) ) ------
) )
) ) Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason
) ) and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to
) ) understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other
) ) people.
) )
) ) - Molleen Matsumura
Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason
and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to
understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other
people.
- Molleen Matsumura
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:14:18 +0000
From: Keith McLean (kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au)
Subject: RE: Defending Steiner
Lisa,
My interpertation of Steiner's statement: People need to overcome a
tendency to prejudice which is a product of an egotistical
identification with one's race (or one's biological heritage).
Thanks,
Keith
ldenike aol.com wrote:
)
)
) To me, it is telling that Steiner felt people *needed* to or should
) "overcome" their race or blood. Of course, he was a man of his time.
) That is what many Anthroposophers seem unwilling to admit. Why not
) acknowledge it?
)
) Lisa
)
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Pete Karaiskos (pkcompany netzero.net)
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Sent: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:14:12 +0000
) Subject: RE: Defending Steiner
)
)
) Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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)
) Keith,
)
) Thank you for this wonderful post. I don't want to step on the toes of
) others who will, no doubt, debate this in detail but in reading the
) quotes and refereneces you have provided, it seems clear to me that what
)
) Steiner is saying is that the individual can rise above his race (or as
) Dottie has said "overcome one's blood")and that when we seek a spiritual
)
) expression of an individual we must confront the individual and not the
) individual's race. I don't necessarily see these passages in conflict
) with the other passages by Steiner that addressed the races themselves
) and not the individual members of those races as spiritual beings. I
) think everyone here understands and appreciates that on a spiritual
) level, and even on an individual physical level, Steiner embraced the
) equality of all men as individuals. But he still had commentary about
) races and racial characteristics that are troubling.
)
) Pete
)
)
) Keith McLean wrote:
) )
) ) Hi Walden,
) )
) )
) ) "You wrote:
) ) "Race is a problemic concept anyway:" (I'm assuming this is a
) ) typo -"problematic")
) )
) ) I'm not trying to be argumentative here but I don't understand that if
) ) "race is problematic, anyway," why did Steiner make "race" such an
) ) important part of Anthroposophy?"
) )
) ) Yep, that was a typo - problematic is the word I intended.
) )
) ) The usage of the word race was the accepted idea/expression and usage of
) )
) )
) ) the time. Racist language was acceptable in Imperialistic Europe of the
) ) 19th/early 20th century. However, at the same time there were those in
) ) Europe who would have disagreed with the outlook expressed by the
) ) langauge, eg. Liberals/Reformists parties, etc. I'm sure it was
) ) difficult to bypass the racist/imperialist dogma which was dominating
) ) the scene at the time.
) )
) ) Before I make comments on your quotations in connection with why Steiner
) )
) )
) ) used the world "race", please have a look at some of Steiner's comments
) ) criticizing racism:
) )
) )
) ) (from: "Some of the roots of antiracism in anthroposophy and Waldorf
) ) education"
) )
) ) [http://www.waldorfanswers.com/AAnthroposophicalAntiracismRoots.htm]):
) )
) )
) ) 1897:
) )
) ) "Value should be attached solely to the mutual exchange between
) ) individuals. It is irrelevant whether someone is a Jew or a German ...
) ) This is so obvious that one feels stupid even putting it into words. So
) ) how stupid must one be to assert the opposite!"
) )
) ) Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) ) (Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, September 1897.
) )
) )
) ) 1900:
) )
) ) "I have never been able to see anti-Semitism as anything except a
) ) view that indicates in those who hold it an inferiority of spirit, a
) ) lack of ability to make ethical judgments and a tastelessness ... that
) ) is an insult to any normal way of thinking."
) )
) ) Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) ) (Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, 1 September 1900.
) )
) )
) ) 1901:
) )
) ) "Anti-Semitism is a mockery of all belief in ideas. It is a mockery
) ) especially of the idea that humanity rises above any specialized form
) ) (tribe, race, nation) in which this humanity expresses itself."
) )
) ) “Anti-Semitism is not only a danger for Jews, it is also a danger
) ) for non Jews. It arises out of a way of thinking that does not seriously
) )
) )
) ) strive for sound, straightforward judgments. Anti-Semitism promotes this
) )
) )
) ) way of thinking. And anyone who thinks philosophically should not just
) ) observe that passively. The belief in ideas will only return to
) ) prevalence if we oppose the contrary unbelief in all areas as
) ) energetically as possible.“
) )
) ) Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) ) (Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, 20 and 27 November 1901.
) )
) )
) ) 1904:
) )
) ) "Other qualities which ... have to be combated [on the path of
) ) spiritual development] are ... the making of distinctions in human
) ) beings according to the outward characteristics of rank, sex, race, and
) ) so forth. In our time it is difficult for people to understand how the
) ) combating of such qualities can have anything to do with the heightening
) )
) )
) ) of the faculty of cognition. But every spiritual scientist knows that
) ) much more depends upon such
) )
) ) matters than upon the increase of intelligence and employment of
) ) artificial exercises. Especially can misunderstanding arise if we
) ) believe that we must become foolhardy in order to be fearless; that we
) ) must close our eyes to the differences between people, because we must
) ) combat the prejudices of rank, race, and so forth. Rather is it true
) ) that a correct estimate of all things is to be attained only wen we are
) ) no longer entangled in prejudice. Even in the ordinary sense it is true
) ) that the fear of some phenomenon prevents us from estimating it rightly;
) )
) )
) ) that a racial prejudice prevents us from seeing into a man's soul. It is
) )
) )
) ) this ordinary sense that the student must develop in all its delicacy
) ) and subtlety."
) )
) ) Knowledge of the Higher Worlds And Its Attainment (GA 10),
) ) written in 1904. Chapter: Some Practical Aspects.
) )
) )
) ) 1919:
) )
) ) "... as regards ... what is independent of our bodily makeup we are
) ) all individually made; each one of us is his or her own self, an
) ) individual. With the exception of the far less important differences
) ) that show up as racial or national differences ... but which are (if you
) )
) )
) ) have a sense for this you cannot help noticing it) mere trifles
) ) by comparison with differences in individual gifts and skills: with the
) ) exception of these we are all equal as human beings ... as regards our
) ) external, physical humanity. We are equal as human beings, here in the
) ) physical world, specifically in that we all have the same human form and
) )
) )
) ) all manifest a human countenance. The fact that we all bear a human
) ) countenance and encounter one another as external, physical human
) ) beings... this makes us equal on this footing. We differ from one
) ) another in our individual gifts which, however, belong to our inner
) ) nature."
) )
) ) Education as a Force for Social Change (in GA 192), Hudson 1997,
) ) lecture of 23 April 1919."
) )
) ) ------
) )
) ) Now, on to the other points:
) )
) ) 1.
) )
) ) "For example, I'd appreciate your comments on only a few of Steiner's
) ) concepts on skin colour and race:
) )
) ) "White humankind is still on the path of absorbing the spirit deeper and
) )
) )
) ) deeper into its own essence. Yellow humankind is on the path of
) ) conserving the era when the spirit will be kept away from the body, when
) )
) )
) ) the spirit will only be sought outside of the human-physical
) ) organization. But the result will have to be that the transition from
) ) the fifth cultural epoch to the sixth cultural epoch cannot happen in
) ) any other way than as a violent battle of white humankind against
) ) colored humankind in myriad areas. And that which precedes these battles
) )
) )
) ) between white and colored humankind will occupy world history until the
) ) completion of the great battles between white and colored humankind.
) ) Future events are frequently reflected in prior events. You see, we
) ) stand before something colossal that - when we understand it through
) ) spiritual science - we will in the future be able to recognize as a
) ) necessary occurrence." (Rudolf Steiner, Die geistigen Hintergründe des
) ) Ersten Weltkrieges. Dornach, 1974 (GA 174b) p. 38)."
) )
) ) - Well, I'm stumped. The use of the terms "yellow" and "white" seem too
) ) crude for Steiner's discourse - I would question the authenticity of
) ) those sentences; also, Steiner was firmly anti-war. Is the source
) ) material translated into English? Where can I find it so as to examine
) ) it for myself? GA 174b is not reproduced online as yet (to my
) ) knowledge), so that makes it harder again to examine where Steiner was
) ) going with the argument.
) )
) ) Incidently, the following is also apparently an excerpt from GA 174b:
) )
) ) "1915:
) )
) ) “The very reason why we are working to reach a world view based on
) ) spiritual science is so that humanity may struggle to free itself from
) ) feelings of merely national concern as opposed to feelings concerned
) ) with humanity as a whole ... so that something may spread to encompass
) ) the whole earth, something that goes beyond all possible
) ) differentiations ...â€
) )
) ) Die geistigen Hintergründe des Ersten Weltkriegs (The spiritual
) ) background of the First World War) (GA 174b), Dornach 1994, lecture of
) ) 14 February 1915."
) )
) ) ( - from: "Some of the roots of antiracism in anthroposophy and Waldorf
) ) education"
) ) [http://www.waldorfanswers.com/AAnthroposophicalAntiracismRoots.htm])
) )
) )
) ) 2.
) )
) ) ""Really, it is the whites who develop the human factor within
) ) themselves. Therefore they have to rely on themselves. When whites do
) ) emigrate, they partly take on the characteristics of other areas, but
) ) they die more as individuals than as a race. The white race is the
) ) race of the future, the race that is working creatively with the
) ) spirit."
) ) [Steiner, March 3 1923, lecture to the workmen (GA 349 p. 67)]"
) )
) ) - Firstly, I think there's a mistake here: GA 349 is not "Lecture to the
) )
) )
) ) workmen", but "Lecture I: The WHITSUN Mystery and its Connection with
) ) the Ascension" [check
) ) http://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/index.php?ga=GA0349].
) )
) ) Well, this again seems too crude a statement for Steiner. This also
) ) contradicts his other statements which supported the unity of humanity.
) ) Which leads to the question: How authentic are they? The only other
) ) thing I can think of that might remotely explain his emphasis here on
) ) race terms is that his audience were not presupposed to ornate
) ) vocabulary - I'm guessing he was communicating to manual labourers,
) ) mechanics etc. in his address. That said, this does not explain his
) ) sympathetic and emphatic anti-racist statements.
) )
) )
) ) 3.
) )
) ) ""I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
) )
) )
) ) them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
) ) Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
) ) children will be born in Europe" (from Steiner's "Health and
) ) Illness").""
) )
) ) - Can't find "Health and Illness" - where do I source that? Well,
) ) "negro" was a standard term then; and, I would like further explanation
) ) of what Steiner was endeavouring to do here - that is, if this source is
) )
) )
) ) genuine.
) )
) )
) ) 4.
) )
) ) ""No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through using the French
) )
) )
) ) language...It is also possible at the present time that the French will
) ) even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept their
) ) language going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people
) ) are doing to other people, the frightful cultural brutality of
) ) transplanting black people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of
) ) all. This has an incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This
) ) will substantially add to French decadence. The French nation will be
) ) weakened as a race." [Steiner, Rudolf.
) ) *Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School in Stuttgart 1922
) ) to 1923: Volume Three: Being the end of the Fourth Year*. (1923) Trans.
) ) Pauline Wehrle. Forest Row, U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship
) ) Publications, 1988, pp. 87-88.]"
) )
) ) - I think the fault with this passage is that it takes a very clinical
) ) view of human cultures. I think what you're seeing here is a bit of
) ) intellectualism at work and cultural bias. Also, I believe that there's
) ) a traditional animosity between Germany and France (at least in the
) ) past), and the fact that Steiner is speaking to a German audience (well,
) )
) )
) ) I assume so, it being Stuttgart) both help explain at least some of the
) ) high-handedness.
) )
) ) Regarding the "black people and Europe" dichotomy attitude conveyed
) ) here, it is not clear that Steiner is being dismissive of blacks. What
) ) would be more likely is that he was concerned about the cultural and
) ) attitudinal norms of African or Africanised cultures taking Europe down
) ) a materialistic road (that it was already heading down). Personally, I
) ) disagree with him: race is not a factor that should be of concern -
) ) societal ethics and values as applied to humanity globally is. He should
) )
) )
) ) have focussed on the relevant issues.
) )
) ) When he discusses races in relation to the spiritual timelines ofth
) ) "Epochs", he's talking about a progression of human development through
) ) different paradigms. Many of the ancient civilizations in Europe, Africa
) )
) )
) ) and Asia are considered expressions and applications of these
) ) developments. So, confusing as the description might appear, he means in
) )
) )
) ) this context not biological race but something more akin to cultural
) ) identity. At all times, Rudolf Steiner is concerned with the world of
) ) the spirit, inner development, and what this means for life on earth.
) )
) ) So, race is a problematic concept and should be applied carefully when
) ) used. I quoted from the Encarta Encyclopeadia in my last post regarding
) ) the concepts of race and ethnicity, which clearly showed that race is
) ) not a very useful concept; whilst ethnicity on the other hand is more
) ) applicable descriptively and analytically. Our knowledge of social
) ) reality changes, especially when science has an input: what was certain
) ) knowledge at one time can be defunct the next, based on the exploration
) ) of the area in question. Life is change and history is change.
) )
) ) I might say that the humanities departments of universities,
) ) philosophers and other thinkers often wonder about the discourse on
) ) social issues in the public, how things can be distorted and
) ) oversimplified. I can see the difference between the political and
) ) ideological use of an idea, and a dispassionate reflective approach on
) ) the same thing. In my view, we need to be more circumspect. Steiner and
) ) his work is not a formal part of academia (and some would have problems
) ) with his ideas), but he was exposed to it and thus he brings discipline
) ) from that experience to his work. If his ideas are wrong in some areas,
) ) it was not because of want of intelligence and awareness. It is
) ) repeatably clear also that he values compassion.
) )
) )
) ) Thanks,
) )
) ) Keith
) )
) ) ------
) )
) ) Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason
) ) and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to
) ) understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other
) ) people.
) )
) ) - Molleen Matsumura
)
) Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
) basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason
and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to
understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other
people.
- Molleen Matsumura
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:01:38 +0000
From: Pete Karaiskos (pkcompany netzero.net)
Subject: RE: Defending Steiner
Thank you Keith.
So we agree that Steiner was not a bigot - and I don't think one needs
to jump to that conclusion to suggest racism in Steiner's writings. In
fact, I think that most people misunderstand that when critics of
Steiner's works suggest they apply racism, that doesn't mean bigotry.
Steiner, or anyone else, is free to discuss racial and ethnic
differences between people. Nobody has a problem with that - and in
much of Steiner's writings, this is exactly what he does. It is when
those differences were perceived by Steiner as suggesting a spiritual,
physical, intellectual or social advantage or elevation of one race over
another that there is a problem that is undeniable. This problem is a
social problem and it leads to social dysfunction. It is Steiner's
commentary about the races themselves, not necessarily the individuals
within the races, that people, myself included, find objectionable.
Wouldn't you agree that Steiner's commentary on the races themselves is
as valid as a topic of discussion as is his commentary about
individuals? The need to reconcile these two viewpoints that are
apparently in opposition is considerable - and I would welcome some
evidence that Steiner actually attempted to reconcile this.
Pete
Keith McLean wrote:
)
) Pete,
)
) Thank you, much appreciated. I think there are various connections which
)
) have subtle meanings in his work, and Steiner at times touches on home
) truths about human life.
)
)
) Thanks,
)
) Keith
)
)
) Pete Karaiskos wrote:
) )
) ) Keith,
) )
) ) Thank you for this wonderful post. I don't want to step on the toes of
) ) others who will, no doubt, debate this in detail but in reading the
) ) quotes and refereneces you have provided, it seems clear to me that what
) )
) )
) ) Steiner is saying is that the individual can rise above his race (or as
) ) Dottie has said "overcome one's blood")and that when we seek a spiritual
) )
) )
) ) expression of an individual we must confront the individual and not the
) ) individual's race. I don't necessarily see these passages in conflict
) ) with the other passages by Steiner that addressed the races themselves
) ) and not the individual members of those races as spiritual beings. I
) ) think everyone here understands and appreciates that on a spiritual
) ) level, and even on an individual physical level, Steiner embraced the
) ) equality of all men as individuals. But he still had commentary about
) ) races and racial characteristics that are troubling.
) )
) ) Pete
) )
) )
) ) Keith McLean wrote:
) ) )
) ) ) Hi Walden,
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) "You wrote:
) ) ) "Race is a problemic concept anyway:" (I'm assuming this is a
) ) ) typo -"problematic")
) ) )
) ) ) I'm not trying to be argumentative here but I don't understand that if
) ) ) "race is problematic, anyway," why did Steiner make "race" such an
) ) ) important part of Anthroposophy?"
) ) )
) ) ) Yep, that was a typo - problematic is the word I intended.
) ) )
) ) ) The usage of the word race was the accepted idea/expression and usage of
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) the time. Racist language was acceptable in Imperialistic Europe of the
) ) ) 19th/early 20th century. However, at the same time there were those in
) ) ) Europe who would have disagreed with the outlook expressed by the
) ) ) langauge, eg. Liberals/Reformists parties, etc. I'm sure it was
) ) ) difficult to bypass the racist/imperialist dogma which was dominating
) ) ) the scene at the time.
) ) )
) ) ) Before I make comments on your quotations in connection with why Steiner
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) used the world "race", please have a look at some of Steiner's comments
) ) ) criticizing racism:
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) (from: "Some of the roots of antiracism in anthroposophy and Waldorf
) ) ) education"
) ) )
) ) ) [http://www.waldorfanswers.com/AAnthroposophicalAntiracismRoots.htm]):
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) 1897:
) ) )
) ) ) "Value should be attached solely to the mutual exchange between
) ) ) individuals. It is irrelevant whether someone is a Jew or a German ...
) ) ) This is so obvious that one feels stupid even putting it into words. So
) ) ) how stupid must one be to assert the opposite!"
) ) )
) ) ) Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) ) ) (Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, September 1897.
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) 1900:
) ) )
) ) ) "I have never been able to see anti-Semitism as anything except a
) ) ) view that indicates in those who hold it an inferiority of spirit, a
) ) ) lack of ability to make ethical judgments and a tastelessness ... that
) ) ) is an insult to any normal way of thinking."
) ) )
) ) ) Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) ) ) (Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, 1 September 1900.
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) 1901:
) ) )
) ) ) "Anti-Semitism is a mockery of all belief in ideas. It is a mockery
) ) ) especially of the idea that humanity rises above any specialized form
) ) ) (tribe, race, nation) in which this humanity expresses itself."
) ) )
) ) ) “Anti-Semitism is not only a danger for Jews, it is also a danger
) ) ) for non Jews. It arises out of a way of thinking that does not seriously
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) strive for sound, straightforward judgments. Anti-Semitism promotes this
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) way of thinking. And anyone who thinks philosophically should not just
) ) ) observe that passively. The belief in ideas will only return to
) ) ) prevalence if we oppose the contrary unbelief in all areas as
) ) ) energetically as possible.“
) ) )
) ) ) Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) ) ) (Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, 20 and 27 November 1901.
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) 1904:
) ) )
) ) ) "Other qualities which ... have to be combated [on the path of
) ) ) spiritual development] are ... the making of distinctions in human
) ) ) beings according to the outward characteristics of rank, sex, race, and
) ) ) so forth. In our time it is difficult for people to understand how the
) ) ) combating of such qualities can have anything to do with the heightening
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) of the faculty of cognition. But every spiritual scientist knows that
) ) ) much more depends upon such
) ) )
) ) ) matters than upon the increase of intelligence and employment of
) ) ) artificial exercises. Especially can misunderstanding arise if we
) ) ) believe that we must become foolhardy in order to be fearless; that we
) ) ) must close our eyes to the differences between people, because we must
) ) ) combat the prejudices of rank, race, and so forth. Rather is it true
) ) ) that a correct estimate of all things is to be attained only wen we are
) ) ) no longer entangled in prejudice. Even in the ordinary sense it is true
) ) ) that the fear of some phenomenon prevents us from estimating it rightly;
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) that a racial prejudice prevents us from seeing into a man's soul. It is
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) this ordinary sense that the student must develop in all its delicacy
) ) ) and subtlety."
) ) )
) ) ) Knowledge of the Higher Worlds And Its Attainment (GA 10),
) ) ) written in 1904. Chapter: Some Practical Aspects.
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) 1919:
) ) )
) ) ) "... as regards ... what is independent of our bodily makeup we are
) ) ) all individually made; each one of us is his or her own self, an
) ) ) individual. With the exception of the far less important differences
) ) ) that show up as racial or national differences ... but which are (if you
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) have a sense for this you cannot help noticing it) mere trifles
) ) ) by comparison with differences in individual gifts and skills: with the
) ) ) exception of these we are all equal as human beings ... as regards our
) ) ) external, physical humanity. We are equal as human beings, here in the
) ) ) physical world, specifically in that we all have the same human form and
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) all manifest a human countenance. The fact that we all bear a human
) ) ) countenance and encounter one another as external, physical human
) ) ) beings... this makes us equal on this footing. We differ from one
) ) ) another in our individual gifts which, however, belong to our inner
) ) ) nature."
) ) )
) ) ) Education as a Force for Social Change (in GA 192), Hudson 1997,
) ) ) lecture of 23 April 1919."
) ) )
) ) ) ------
) ) )
) ) ) Now, on to the other points:
) ) )
) ) ) 1.
) ) )
) ) ) "For example, I'd appreciate your comments on only a few of Steiner's
) ) ) concepts on skin colour and race:
) ) )
) ) ) "White humankind is still on the path of absorbing the spirit deeper and
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) deeper into its own essence. Yellow humankind is on the path of
) ) ) conserving the era when the spirit will be kept away from the body, when
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) the spirit will only be sought outside of the human-physical
) ) ) organization. But the result will have to be that the transition from
) ) ) the fifth cultural epoch to the sixth cultural epoch cannot happen in
) ) ) any other way than as a violent battle of white humankind against
) ) ) colored humankind in myriad areas. And that which precedes these battles
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) between white and colored humankind will occupy world history until the
) ) ) completion of the great battles between white and colored humankind.
) ) ) Future events are frequently reflected in prior events. You see, we
) ) ) stand before something colossal that - when we understand it through
) ) ) spiritual science - we will in the future be able to recognize as a
) ) ) necessary occurrence." (Rudolf Steiner, Die geistigen Hintergründe des
) ) ) Ersten Weltkrieges. Dornach, 1974 (GA 174b) p. 38)."
) ) )
) ) ) - Well, I'm stumped. The use of the terms "yellow" and "white" seem too
) ) ) crude for Steiner's discourse - I would question the authenticity of
) ) ) those sentences; also, Steiner was firmly anti-war. Is the source
) ) ) material translated into English? Where can I find it so as to examine
) ) ) it for myself? GA 174b is not reproduced online as yet (to my
) ) ) knowledge), so that makes it harder again to examine where Steiner was
) ) ) going with the argument.
) ) )
) ) ) Incidently, the following is also apparently an excerpt from GA 174b:
) ) )
) ) ) "1915:
) ) )
) ) ) “The very reason why we are working to reach a world view based on
) ) ) spiritual science is so that humanity may struggle to free itself from
) ) ) feelings of merely national concern as opposed to feelings concerned
) ) ) with humanity as a whole ... so that something may spread to encompass
) ) ) the whole earth, something that goes beyond all possible
) ) ) differentiations ...”
) ) )
) ) ) Die geistigen Hintergründe des Ersten Weltkriegs (The spiritual
) ) ) background of the First World War) (GA 174b), Dornach 1994, lecture of
) ) ) 14 February 1915."
) ) )
) ) ) ( - from: "Some of the roots of antiracism in anthroposophy and Waldorf
) ) ) education"
) ) ) [http://www.waldorfanswers.com/AAnthroposophicalAntiracismRoots.htm])
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) 2.
) ) )
) ) ) ""Really, it is the whites who develop the human factor within
) ) ) themselves. Therefore they have to rely on themselves. When whites do
) ) ) emigrate, they partly take on the characteristics of other areas, but
) ) ) they die more as individuals than as a race. The white race is the
) ) ) race of the future, the race that is working creatively with the
) ) ) spirit."
) ) ) [Steiner, March 3 1923, lecture to the workmen (GA 349 p. 67)]"
) ) )
) ) ) - Firstly, I think there's a mistake here: GA 349 is not "Lecture to the
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) workmen", but "Lecture I: The WHITSUN Mystery and its Connection with
) ) ) the Ascension" [check
) ) ) http://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/index.php?ga=GA0349].
) ) )
) ) ) Well, this again seems too crude a statement for Steiner. This also
) ) ) contradicts his other statements which supported the unity of humanity.
) ) ) Which leads to the question: How authentic are they? The only other
) ) ) thing I can think of that might remotely explain his emphasis here on
) ) ) race terms is that his audience were not presupposed to ornate
) ) ) vocabulary - I'm guessing he was communicating to manual labourers,
) ) ) mechanics etc. in his address. That said, this does not explain his
) ) ) sympathetic and emphatic anti-racist statements.
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) 3.
) ) )
) ) ) ""I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
) ) ) Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
) ) ) children will be born in Europe" (from Steiner's "Health and
) ) ) Illness").""
) ) )
) ) ) - Can't find "Health and Illness" - where do I source that? Well,
) ) ) "negro" was a standard term then; and, I would like further explanation
) ) ) of what Steiner was endeavouring to do here - that is, if this source is
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) genuine.
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) 4.
) ) )
) ) ) ""No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through using the French
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) language...It is also possible at the present time that the French will
) ) ) even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept their
) ) ) language going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people
) ) ) are doing to other people, the frightful cultural brutality of
) ) ) transplanting black people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of
) ) ) all. This has an incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This
) ) ) will substantially add to French decadence. The French nation will be
) ) ) weakened as a race." [Steiner, Rudolf.
) ) ) *Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School in Stuttgart 1922
) ) ) to 1923: Volume Three: Being the end of the Fourth Year*. (1923) Trans.
) ) ) Pauline Wehrle. Forest Row, U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship
) ) ) Publications, 1988, pp. 87-88.]"
) ) )
) ) ) - I think the fault with this passage is that it takes a very clinical
) ) ) view of human cultures. I think what you're seeing here is a bit of
) ) ) intellectualism at work and cultural bias. Also, I believe that there's
) ) ) a traditional animosity between Germany and France (at least in the
) ) ) past), and the fact that Steiner is speaking to a German audience (well,
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) I assume so, it being Stuttgart) both help explain at least some of the
) ) ) high-handedness.
) ) )
) ) ) Regarding the "black people and Europe" dichotomy attitude conveyed
) ) ) here, it is not clear that Steiner is being dismissive of blacks. What
) ) ) would be more likely is that he was concerned about the cultural and
) ) ) attitudinal norms of African or Africanised cultures taking Europe down
) ) ) a materialistic road (that it was already heading down). Personally, I
) ) ) disagree with him: race is not a factor that should be of concern -
) ) ) societal ethics and values as applied to humanity globally is. He should
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) have focussed on the relevant issues.
) ) )
) ) ) When he discusses races in relation to the spiritual timelines ofth
) ) ) "Epochs", he's talking about a progression of human development through
) ) ) different paradigms. Many of the ancient civilizations in Europe, Africa
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) and Asia are considered expressions and applications of these
) ) ) developments. So, confusing as the description might appear, he means in
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) this context not biological race but something more akin to cultural
) ) ) identity. At all times, Rudolf Steiner is concerned with the world of
) ) ) the spirit, inner development, and what this means for life on earth.
) ) )
) ) ) So, race is a problematic concept and should be applied carefully when
) ) ) used. I quoted from the Encarta Encyclopeadia in my last post regarding
) ) ) the concepts of race and ethnicity, which clearly showed that race is
) ) ) not a very useful concept; whilst ethnicity on the other hand is more
) ) ) applicable descriptively and analytically. Our knowledge of social
) ) ) reality changes, especially when science has an input: what was certain
) ) ) knowledge at one time can be defunct the next, based on the exploration
) ) ) of the area in question. Life is change and history is change.
) ) )
) ) ) I might say that the humanities departments of universities,
) ) ) philosophers and other thinkers often wonder about the discourse on
) ) ) social issues in the public, how things can be distorted and
) ) ) oversimplified. I can see the difference between the political and
) ) ) ideological use of an idea, and a dispassionate reflective approach on
) ) ) the same thing. In my view, we need to be more circumspect. Steiner and
) ) ) his work is not a formal part of academia (and some would have problems
) ) ) with his ideas), but he was exposed to it and thus he brings discipline
) ) ) from that experience to his work. If his ideas are wrong in some areas,
) ) ) it was not because of want of intelligence and awareness. It is
) ) ) repeatably clear also that he values compassion.
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) Thanks,
) ) )
) ) ) Keith
) ) )
) ) ) ------
) ) )
) ) ) Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason
) ) ) and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to
) ) ) understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other
) ) ) people.
) ) )
) ) ) - Molleen Matsumura
)
)
)
) Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason
) and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to
) understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other
) people.
)
) - Molleen Matsumura
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:16:22 +0000
From: Keith McLean (kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au)
Subject: RE: Defending Steiner
Hi Dan,
"1919:
"... as regards ... what is independent of our bodily makeup we are
all individually made; each one of us is his or her own self, an
individual. With the exception of the far less important differences
that show up as racial or national differences ... but which are (if you
have a sense for this you cannot help noticing it) mere trifles
by comparison with differences in individual gifts and skills: with the
exception of these we are all equal as human beings ... as regards our
external, physical humanity. We are equal as human beings, here in the
physical world, specifically in that we all have the same human form and
all manifest a human countenance. The fact that we all bear a human
countenance and encounter one another as external, physical human
beings... this makes us equal on this footing. We differ from one
another in our individual gifts which, however, belong to our inner
nature."
Education as a Force for Social Change (in GA 192), Hudson 1997,
lecture of 23 April 1919."
That last one tries to work both sides...given
that Steiner said that "our inner nature" was
shown in skin color."
"Inner nature" here meaning that spiritual forces - which by nature are
hidden to physical senses - create biology, as Nature is a product of
spiritual beings. Soul and psychology is the domain of the individual
human being - his/her inner nature.
Just to repeat:
"[snip]...the far less important differences that show up as racial or
national differences ... but which are (if you have a sense for this you
cannot help noticing it) mere trifles by comparison with differences in
individual gifts and skills...[snip]"
"Do you notice how Steiner's position changes?
Staudenmaier wrote about the periods in Steiner's
life"
I read his comments, and he insists there that Steiner is trying to
cover-up anti-semitism. Firstly, the following is on the cultural
climate of anti-semitism in Germany in the period:
"In Germany, the process of Jewish emancipation was completed with the
formation of the German Empire in 1871. Although legal reforms put an
end to discrimination on religious grounds, hostility, based on racism,
grew. Racist theories that had been formulated during the preceding
decades provided the basis for a new grouping of anti-Semitic political
parties after the Franco-Prussian War and the economic crash of 1873.
The German political scene was marked by the presence of at least one
openly anti-Semitic party until 1933, when anti-Semitism became the
official policy of the government under National Socialism (Nazism).
Anti-Semitic hostility became justified by the racist theory, first
developed in Germany in the middle of the 19th century, that peoples of
so-called Aryan (Sanskrit, “noble”) stock are superior in physique and
character to those of Semitic stock. The Nazis subsequently used the
term “Aryan” to mean white and non-Jewish. Although the theory was
rejected by all responsible ethnologists, widely read books
incorporating anti-Semitic doctrines were written by such men as the
French diplomat and social philosopher Comte Joseph Arthur de Gobineau
and the German philosopher and economist Karl Dühring. The theory of
racial superiority was used to justify the civil and religious
persecution of Jews that had existed throughout history.
(c) 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved."
[ - from Encarta Encylopeadia 2004]
Nowhere in those quotes does his statements evoke racist propaganda as
described in the above passage. His core opposition to anti-semitism is
the same in all those statements. I can't see any noteworthy
"flip-floping" chronologically or otherwise.
"They are all from official Anthroposophical
sources. When you don't like something, you're
saying it must not be authentic! Could you accept
being wrong?"
- Well, I'm not familiar with either these passages or the documents
that contain them. Show me the document in full, and then I can look at
it and evaluate it properly.
"Some of the "difficult" material has not been
translated, or has been left out of the English
translations. Probably because "we just wouldn't
understand.""
- Well, I would like to see more material translated. It would make
sense to have the full Steiner opus in English. However, I do appreciate
that translation work is probably time-
consuming.
"I don't have the recent translation:
Steiner, Rudolf. From Limestone to Lucifer...:
Answers to Questions: Twelve discussions with
workers at the Goetheanum in Dornach between 17
February and 9 May 1923. (1923) Trans. A.R.
Meuss. London: Rudolf Steiner Press, 1999."
- Thanks for that.
"I think the contradictions come about depending
on who he is talking to, and when."
- But what was he trying to achieve by doing that?
"Do you think we're making this stuff up?"
- Someone along the line could be. I'd rather see the publications
themselves where possible.
""The only other
thing I can think of that might remotely explain his emphasis here on
race terms is that his audience were not presupposed to ornate
vocabulary - I'm guessing he was communicating to manual labourers,
mechanics etc. in his address. That said, this does not explain his
sympathetic and emphatic anti-racist statements."
The fact is he wanted to have it both ways."
- Well, that wouldn't have worked: wouldn't his emphasis on Christ and
the Gospels - and on ethical conduct - kind of presnet a stumblimg block
on any non-Christian aspirations he may have had? Wouldn't encouraging
ethical conduct in his audience tend to direct them towards that instead
of racial prejudice?
""When he discusses races in relation to the spiritual timelines ofth
"Epochs", he's talking about a progression of human development through
different paradigms. Many of the ancient civilizations in Europe, Africa
and Asia are considered expressions and applications of these
developments. So, confusing as the description might appear, he means in
this context not biological race but something more akin to cultural
identity."
That's a tired excuse. In some places Steiner is
vague about race, but in others, like the quote
from GA174b above, he makes it quite clear that
"cultural epochs" in Anthroposophy meant the same
thing as "races" in Theosophy--the words have
been changed for public consumption, insiders
know what they really mean."
No, not really races but civilizations:
"Just as the great cosmic evolution can be presented in the succession
of its states from the Saturn to the Vulcan evolution, it is also
possible to present smaller time-divisions; those of the Earth
evolution, for example. Since that enormous catastrophe that brought the
ancient Atlantean civilization to an end there have been successive
stages within human evolution that in this book have been designated as
the ancient Indian, the ancient Persian, the Egypto-Chaldean, and the
Greco-Latin epochs of culture. The fifth period is the one in which
mankind now stands, the present. This period gradually began during the
twelfth, thirteenth, and fourteenth centuries A.D., after it had
prepared itself since the fourth and fifth centuries. From the fifteenth
century onward it emerged quite clearly. The preceding Greco-Latin
culture began about the eighth century B.C. At the end of its first
third, the Christ event occurred. The condition of the human soul and
all the human faculties changed with the transition from the
Egypto-Chaldean to the Greco-Latin cultural period. In the former there
was not yet present what we now know as logical cogitation, as
intellectual comprehension of the world. What the human being now
acquires as knowledge through his intellect he received in the form that
was fitting for that time: directly through an inner, in a certain
respect, supersensible knowledge. He perceived objects, and while
perceiving them their concept, their image, needed by the soul, arose in
its inner being. With the power of cognition described, not only images
of the physical sense world emerge, but from the depths of the soul
there arises a certain knowledge of non-sensory facts and beings. This
was the remnant of ancient dim clairvoyant consciousness, once the
common possession of all mankind. During the Greco-Latin period there
arose more and more human beings who lacked such faculties. Instead of
these faculties, intellectual reflection upon objects began to appear.
Human beings were by degrees removed from a direct, dreamlike perception
of the world of soul and spirit and were ever more dependent upon a
picture of that world, formed by their intellect and feeling. This state
continued in a certain respect throughout the entire fourth
post-Atlantean period. Only those individuals who had preserved the
ancient soul condition like a heritage could still receive the spiritual
world directly into their consciousness. These individuals, however, are
stragglers of a more ancient epoch. The kind of knowledge they possessed
no longer fitted the new age. For it is a consequence of the laws of
evolution that an ancient soul faculty loses its full significance when
new faculties appear. Human life then adapts itself to these new
faculties, and it is no longer able to exercise the old faculties. There
were, however, also individuals who in a quite conscious manner began to
develop, besides the acquired powers of intellect and feeling, other
higher faculties that again made it possible for them to penetrate into
the world of soul and spirit. They had to begin to do this in a manner
quite different from what was customary for the pupils of the ancient
initiates. The latter did not yet have to consider the soul faculties
first developed in the fourth cultural period. In that period the method
of spiritual training began that has been described in this book as the
present-day method. But it was at that time only in its infancy; it
could be properly developed only in the fifth cultural period, actually
since the twelfth and thirteenth — chiefly the fifteenth — centuries of
our era. Human beings who in this way sought to ascend into the
supersensible world were able to experience through their own
imagination, inspiration, and intuition something of higher realms of
existence. Those who remained satisfied with the developed faculties of
intellect and feeling could learn only from tradition, what ancient
clairvoyance knew, and which was transmitted from generation to
generation by word of mouth, or in writing."
[from: Chapter 6 - "THE PRESENT AND FUTURE OF
COSMIC AND HUMAN EVOLUTION"; An Outline of Occult Science.
(http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA013/English/AP1972/GA013_c06.html)]
That excerpt shows what I understand "epoch" to mean in the Steiner
sense, and it's expressed in a similar way in the key Steiner books.
Perhaps the problem here, as often noted on the documents, is that
lecture material is sometimes inaccurate, due to it being unauthorised
or unchecked by Steiner. Not an excuse, just a possible factor to
consider.
Thanks,
Keith
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) Keith McLean, you wrote:
)
) )Before I make comments on your quotations in connection with why Steiner
) )used the world "race", please have a look at some of Steiner's comments
) )criticizing racism:
) )
) )(from: "Some of the roots of antiracism in anthroposophy and Waldorf
) )education"
) )
) )[http://www.waldorfanswers.com/AAnthroposophicalAntiracismRoots.htm]):
) )
) )
) )1897:
) )
) ) "Value should be attached solely to the mutual exchange between
) )individuals. It is irrelevant whether someone is a Jew or a German ...
) )This is so obvious that one feels stupid even putting it into words. So
) )how stupid must one be to assert the opposite!"
) )
) ) Gesammelte Aufs”tze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) )(Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, September 1897.
) )
) )1900:
) )
) ) "I have never been able to see anti-Semitism as anything except a
) )view that indicates in those who hold it an inferiority of spirit, a
) )lack of ability to make ethical judgments and a tastelessness ... that
) )is an insult to any normal way of thinking."
) )
) ) Gesammelte Aufs”tze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) )(Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, 1 September 1900.
) )
) )1901:
) )
) ) "Anti-Semitism is a mockery of all belief in ideas. It is a mockery
) )especially of the idea that humanity rises above any specialized form
) )(tribe, race, nation) in which this humanity expresses itself."
) )
) ) ìAnti-Semitism is not only a danger for Jews, it is also a danger
) )for non Jews. It arises out of a way of thinking that does not seriously
) )strive for sound, straightforward judgments. Anti-Semitism promotes this
) )way of thinking. And anyone who thinks philosophically should not just
) )observe that passively. The belief in ideas will only return to
) )prevalence if we oppose the contrary unbelief in all areas as
) )energetically as possible.ì
) )
) ) Gesammelte Aufs”tze zur Kultur- und Zeitgeschichte 1887-1901
) )(Collected essays) (GA 31), Dornach 1989, 20 and 27 November 1901.
) )
) )1904:
) )
) ) "Other qualities which ... have to be combated [on the path of
) )spiritual development] are ... the making of distinctions in human
) )beings according to the outward characteristics of rank, sex, race, and
) )so forth. In our time it is difficult for people to understand how the
) )combating of such qualities can have anything to do with the heightening
) )of the faculty of cognition. But every spiritual scientist knows that
) )much more depends upon such
) )
) )matters than upon the increase of intelligence and employment of
) )artificial exercises. Especially can misunderstanding arise if we
) )believe that we must become foolhardy in order to be fearless; that we
) )must close our eyes to the differences between people, because we must
) )combat the prejudices of rank, race, and so forth. Rather is it true
) )that a correct estimate of all things is to be attained only wen we are
) )no longer entangled in prejudice. Even in the ordinary sense it is true
) )that the fear of some phenomenon prevents us from estimating it rightly;
) )that a racial prejudice prevents us from seeing into a man's soul. It is
) )this ordinary sense that the student must develop in all its delicacy
) )and subtlety."
) )
) ) Knowledge of the Higher Worlds And Its Attainment (GA 10),
) )written in 1904. Chapter: Some Practical Aspects.
) )
) )1919:
) )
) ) "... as regards ... what is independent of our bodily makeup we are
) )all individually made; each one of us is his or her own self, an
) )individual. With the exception of the far less important differences
) )that show up as racial or national differences ... but which are (if you
) )have a sense for this you cannot help noticing it) mere trifles
) )by comparison with differences in individual gifts and skills: with the
) )exception of these we are all equal as human beings ... as regards our
) )external, physical humanity. We are equal as human beings, here in the
) )physical world, specifically in that we all have the same human form and
) )all manifest a human countenance. The fact that we all bear a human
) )countenance and encounter one another as external, physical human
) )beings... this makes us equal on this footing. We differ from one
) )another in our individual gifts which, however, belong to our inner
) )nature."
) )
) ) Education as a Force for Social Change (in GA 192), Hudson 1997,
) )lecture of 23 April 1919."
)
) That last one tries to work both sides...given
) that Steiner said that "our inner nature" was
) shown in skin color.
)
) Do you notice how Steiner's position changes?
) Staudenmaier wrote about the periods in Steiner's
) life:
)
) )Steiner's early antisemitism, which first
) )appeared in the context of his pan-German
) )activities in the 1880s, did indeed give way to
) )a philosemitic stance around the turn of the
) )century. Contrary to Abd's account, however,
) )this phase in Steiner's developing attitudes
) )toward Jewishness coincided with his explicit
) )dismissal of antisemitism as a serious concern
) )-- in other words, what Abd calls Steiner's
) )"early position" actually conflates his early
) )and mid-period positions (and for what it's
) )worth, organized antisemitism in Germany had
) )begun to ebb by the time Steiner got around to
) )opposing it publically for a brief time). More
) )important, Abd's description fails to note that
) )Steiner's mature position, promulgated
) )throughout his theosophical and anthroposophical
) )career after 1901, recapitulated the antisemitic
) )assumptions of his pan-German period; he very
) )explicitly returned to the same odious
) )statements about Jews in the final year of his
) )life. It thus makes little sense to invoke the
) )several shifts in Steiner's viewpoint regarding
) )Jews and Jewishness as a laudable example of
) )Steiner revising his own views in response to
) )historical trends. [w-c 6/4/04]
)
) You continued:
)
) )Now, on to the other points:
) )
) )1.
) )
) )"For example, I'd appreciate your comments on only a few of Steiner's
) )concepts on skin colour and race:
) )
) )"White humankind is still on the path of absorbing the spirit deeper and
) )deeper into its own essence. Yellow humankind is on the path of
) )conserving the era when the spirit will be kept away from the body, when
) )the spirit will only be sought outside of the human-physical
) )organization. But the result will have to be that the transition from
) )the fifth cultural epoch to the sixth cultural epoch cannot happen in
) )any other way than as a violent battle of white humankind against
) )colored humankind in myriad areas. And that which precedes these battles
) )between white and colored humankind will occupy world history until the
) )completion of the great battles between white and colored humankind.
) )Future events are frequently reflected in prior events. You see, we
) )stand before something colossal that - when we understand it through
) )spiritual science - we will in the future be able to recognize as a
) )necessary occurrence." (Rudolf Steiner, Die geistigen Hintergr¸nde des
) )Ersten Weltkrieges. Dornach, 1974 (GA 174b) p. 38)."
) )
) )- Well, I'm stumped. The use of the terms "yellow" and "white" seem too
) )crude for Steiner's discourse - I would question the authenticity of
) )those sentences;
)
) They are all from official Anthroposophical
) sources. When you don't like something, you're
) saying it must not be authentic! Could you accept
) being wrong?
)
) )also, Steiner was firmly anti-war. Is the source
) )material translated into English? Where can I find it so as to examine
) )it for myself? GA 174b is not reproduced online as yet (to my
) )knowledge), so that makes it harder again to examine where Steiner was
) )going with the argument.
)
) Some of the "difficult" material has not been
) translated, or has been left out of the English
) translations. Probably because "we just wouldn't
) understand."
)
) (snip)
) )2.
) )
) )""Really, it is the whites who develop the human factor within
) )themselves. Therefore they have to rely on themselves. When whites do
) )emigrate, they partly take on the characteristics of other areas, but
) )they die more as individuals than as a race. The white race is the
) )race of the future, the race that is working creatively with the
) )spirit."
) )[Steiner, March 3 1923, lecture to the workmen (GA 349 p. 67)]"
) )
) )- Firstly, I think there's a mistake here: GA 349 is not "Lecture to the
) )workmen", but "Lecture I: The WHITSUN Mystery and its Connection with
) )the Ascension" [check
) )http://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/index.php?ga=GA0349].
)
) I don't have the recent translation:
)
) Steiner, Rudolf. From Limestone to Lucifer...:
) Answers to Questions: Twelve discussions with
) workers at the Goetheanum in Dornach between 17
) February and 9 May 1923. (1923) Trans. A.R.
) Meuss. London: Rudolf Steiner Press, 1999.
)
) that I have identified in my bibliography as GA
) 349. Perhaps someone who has it can give us a
) correction.
)
) )Well, this again seems too crude a statement for Steiner. This also
) )contradicts his other statements which supported the unity of humanity.
)
) I think the contradictions come about depending
) on who he is talking to, and when.
)
) )Which leads to the question: How authentic are they?
)
) Do you think we're making this stuff up?
)
) )The only other
) )thing I can think of that might remotely explain his emphasis here on
) )race terms is that his audience were not presupposed to ornate
) )vocabulary - I'm guessing he was communicating to manual labourers,
) )mechanics etc. in his address. That said, this does not explain his
) )sympathetic and emphatic anti-racist statements.
)
) The fact is he wanted to have it both ways.
)
) )3.
) )
) )""I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
) )them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
) )Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
) )children will be born in Europe" (from Steiner's "Health and
) )Illness").""
) )
) )- Can't find "Health and Illness" - where do I source that? Well,
) )"negro" was a standard term then; and, I would like further explanation
) )of what Steiner was endeavouring to do here - that is, if this source is
) )genuine.
)
) Steiner, 30-12-1922 [speech to workers,
) Goetheanum]; GA 348, p.183. (not in the English
) translation Health and Illness, Part 2, lecture
) 1, see p. 16)
)
) )4.
) )
) )""No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through using the French
) )language...It is also possible at the present time that the French will
) )even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept their
) )language going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people
) )are doing to other people, the frightful cultural brutality of
) )transplanting black people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of
) )all. This has an incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This
) )will substantially add to French decadence. The French nation will be
) )weakened as a race." [Steiner, Rudolf.
) )*Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School in Stuttgart 1922
) )to 1923: Volume Three: Being the end of the Fourth Year*. (1923) Trans.
) )Pauline Wehrle. Forest Row, U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship
) )Publications, 1988, pp. 87-88.]"
) )
) )- I think the fault with this passage is that it takes a very clinical
) )view of human cultures. I think what you're seeing here is a bit of
) )intellectualism at work and cultural bias. Also, I believe that there's
) )a traditional animosity between Germany and France (at least in the
) )past), and the fact that Steiner is speaking to a German audience (well,
) )I assume so, it being Stuttgart) both help explain at least some of the
) )high-handedness.
)
) I think the date tells it all; France was
) punishing Germany severely at the time.
)
) )Regarding the "black people and Europe" dichotomy attitude conveyed
) )here, it is not clear that Steiner is being dismissive of blacks. What
) )would be more likely is that he was concerned about the cultural and
) )attitudinal norms of African or Africanised cultures taking Europe down
) )a materialistic road (that it was already heading down). Personally, I
) )disagree with him: race is not a factor that should be of concern -
) )societal ethics and values as applied to humanity globally is. He should
) )have focussed on the relevant issues.
) )
) )When he discusses races in relation to the spiritual timelines ofth
) )"Epochs", he's talking about a progression of human development through
) )different paradigms. Many of the ancient civilizations in Europe, Africa
) )and Asia are considered expressions and applications of these
) )developments. So, confusing as the description might appear, he means in
) )this context not biological race but something more akin to cultural
) )identity.
)
) That's a tired excuse. In some places Steiner is
) vague about race, but in others, like the quote
) from GA174b above, he makes it quite clear that
) "cultural epochs" in Anthroposophy meant the same
) thing as "races" in Theosophy--the words have
) been changed for public consumption, insiders
) know what they really mean.
)
) )At all times, Rudolf Steiner is concerned with the world of
) )the spirit, inner development, and what this means for life on earth.
) )
) )So, race is a problematic concept and should be applied carefully when
) )used. I quoted from the Encarta Encyclopeadia in my last post regarding
) )the concepts of race and ethnicity, which clearly showed that race is
) )not a very useful concept; (snip)
)
) Right, so Anthroposophy should repudiate those tired old ideas, and move
) on.
)
) -Dan Dugan
Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason
and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to
understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other
people.
- Molleen Matsumura
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:30:58 +0000
From: Keith McLean (kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au)
Subject: RE: Defending Steiner
Hi Walden,
I know I feel threatened when I hear Neo-Nazi gangs or other white
supremicists are active. I have a feeling of foreboding whenever I hear
about these things. It is the same with racist or extremist literature
of any kind - I just don't like it. So, I understand your feelings.
In the passages you just cited, I wonder about the significance of the
planet Mercury and the meaning of the term "abnormal". It is not clear
to me how these elements operate in the spiritual scheme. Otherwise, I
don't think Steiner here is dishonouring the Ethiopians or other blacks,
or any other race. At no time does he indicate here that any race is
less worthy of consideration or respect than the other. By the structure
of those passages in the text is he setting in train prejudicial
attitudes in others by implying inferiority of certain races?
At best Steiner here is endeavouring to explain the spiritual origin and
criteria for biological race development. I'm not aware of anyone in
conventional science who can explain the mystery of racial differences
beyond citing genetic adaption and heritage - the matter level of
creation.
Thanks,
Keith
walden wrote:
)
) Hi Keith,
)
) You wrote:
) The usage of the word race was the accepted idea/expression and usage of
) the time. Racist language was acceptable in Imperialistic Europe of the
) 19th/early 20th century. However, at the same time there were those in
) Europe who would have disagreed with the outlook expressed by the
) langauge, eg. Liberals/Reformists parties, etc. I'm sure it was
) difficult to bypass the racist/imperialist dogma which was dominating
) the scene at the time.
) Before I make comments on your quotations in connection with why Steiner
) used the world "race", please have a look at some of Steiner's comments
) criticizing racism:" (snip)
)
) I was about to respond to your thoughtful post when I noticed that Dan
) had
) dealt with some of the data.
) The sample Steiner quotes I posted the other day are not anomalies,
) Keith,
) and are not mistranslations, the results of bad stenographers, etc.
) There are simply far too many of the same thing for the pattern to be
) anything other than... there. I noticed that after one such quote you
) wrote
) that you are stumped. You posted some examples of where Steiner
) criticizes
) racism yet he also clearly uses examples of racism elsewhere. Many
) times.
) What are we left to believe about this remarkable man? That he was
) inconsistent? Apparently yes. That he was obsessed with the concept of
) "race?" Yes.
)
) It was this obsession with race (when moon separated from earth, etc.)
) that
) first caused me to question the "difficult" parts of Anthroposophy. I
) was
) very pro-Waldorf and interested in Anthroposophy long before I came to
) this
) list. When serious research began to awaken dormant faculties of
) critical
) thought, I came to the realization that this particular spiritual path
) was
) not for me. Frankly, I find some of Steiner's thoughts/beliefs quite
) repugnant - or *at least* worthy of open, honest discussion. And here we
) are.
)
) While I cannot possibly expect *you* (or anyone else) to align yourself
) with
) my take on Steiner, I must admit to very often feeling surprised at a
) lack
) of acknowledgment with regards to the actual writings of Steiner. I
) don't
) need a Staudenmaier or Dugan to tell me how to feel when I read certain
) Steiner passages -
) I feel shocked with no need for second party editorializing. When I see
) the
) twist of various writers at Anthro web sites - although I have no doubt
) as
) to their well intentioned sincerity - I am left wondering what this
) movement
) is really all about. When I read about genocide and a pending war based
) on
) race, I feel concerned that people believe it to be an act of Karma ...
) because Steiner says so. And when I see anger and obfuscation/denial
) when
) this topic is raised here (not necessarily by you) I just don't
) understand
) and perhaps I never will.
)
) I remember years ago reading FOUNDATIONS AT THE PERIPHERY: RUDOLF
) STEINER'S
) OBSERVATIONS ON STAR KNOWLEDGE
) http://wn.rsarchive.org/RelArtic/BobbetteRSW/steineraz.html
)
) and wondering how anyone can deny Steiner's obsession with "race" when
) we
) read things like:
)
) "The beings closest to the earth and active in its immediate vicinity up
) to
) the moon are the Angels. From this realm they guide the lives of
) individual
) human beings from incarnation to incarnation. But something more is
) required
) to distribute appropriately the masses of people of a nation so as to
) allot
) them their tasks on the face of the earth. Simple reflection will show
) that
) the cooperation of the cosmos is necessary. Whether a nation is endowed
) with
) this or that sort of character does not depend on earthly but on cosmic
) conditions. Consider, for instance, how one race acts differently from
) another, each with its particular skin and hair characteristics. Such
) things
) are due to cosmic relationships regulated from out of heavenly spaces.
) It
) comes from a realm extending up to Mercury and whose sphere of influence
) reaches up to Archangelic activity. The guidance of the whole
) development of
) humanity on earth is effected from more distant heavenly spaces, which
) extend as far as Venus. The guidance of the earth itself proceeds from
) the
) very centre of the whole system." (14, pg. 79)
)
) And:
)
) "If we now more closely characterise the spot which in our recent
) statements
) we placed in Africa, by saying, that through the co-operation of the
) normal
) Spirits of Form with the abnormal ones centred in Mercury, the negro
) race
) came into existence, we are then, from an occult standpoint, quite
) correct
) in describing what appears in the black race, as the `Mercury race'.
)
) "Here you see that the physical body of man is determined from within;
) so
) that these various spiritual Beings set to work in those parts of the
) physical body which are the projections, the shadows of the higher
) members.
) Now where for instance does Mercury set to work? I say Mercury, so as to
) include all the abnormal Spirits of Form to be found in Mercury. He
) intervenes by co-operating with others, especially in the glandular
) system.
) He seethes in the glandular system, and there are expressed the forces
) which
) originate through the preponderance of the Mercury forces, which work in
) the
) Ethiopian race. Everything which gives the Ethiopian race its special
) characteristics comes from the fact that the Mercury forces seethe and
) surge
) in the glandular system of this people. What modifies the universal
) human
) form into the special form of the Ethiopian race with black skin and
) wooly
) hair and so on, is the result of their activity. This modification of
) the
) common human form comes therefor from these forces."
)
) I'll leave out some of the more shocking quotes as this (above) paints
) the
) picture well enough to convey my point. I hope I have expressed my views
) well enough for them to be understood and I look forward to your
) response.
)
) -Walden
)
)
)
)
)
Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason
and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to
understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other
people.
- Molleen Matsumura
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 02:33:42 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Defending Steiner
Keith McLean wrote in response to Walden:
)At best Steiner here is endeavouring to explain the spiritual origin and
)criteria for biological race development. I'm not aware of anyone in
)conventional science who can explain the mystery of racial differences
)beyond citing genetic adaption and heritage - the matter level of
)creation.
G'day Keith,
thanks for the relatively sensible response you are making to the questions
and comments about race and Steiner. It is a refreshing change. I was
interested in the paragraph I have selected from your response above. I too
can't think of "anyone in conventional science who can explain the mystery
of racial differences beyond citing genetic adaption and heritage." I think
the reason for this is that there isn't anyone in conventional science who
thinks there is such a mystery, and hence there is no need for an
explanation beyond that which has been supplied. Equally I am yet to see
anything that Steiner wrote that explains anything about such a mystery. He
simply claims to "know" that the various races have various properties.
See you, Peter
------------------------------
==^================================================================
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RE: Bizarre email from Serena Blaue
By barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com
RE: Bizarre email from Serena Blaue
By pkcompany netzero.net
Re: Defending Steiner
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Defending Steiner
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:35:07 +0000
From: Barnaby McEwan (barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com)
Subject: Bizarre email from Serena Blaue
She emailed me privately after being booted from this list. I told her
not to contact me again. She ignored that. I've been in touch with her
ISP. Seems that she had more trouble understanding post policy than we
thought, apparently believing she has a say in what's posted even though
she's not a member.
) From :(SerenaBlaue [domain.invalid])
) Sent :28 March 2005 05:01:53
) To :WC_Fallacies yahoogroups.com
) CC :barnaby_mcewan [domain.invalid]
) Subject :RE: Jewish fundamentalists and Serena's biodynamic whining
)
) Note: If you write about me, you are going to hear from me.
) If you don't want to hear from me, then keep me out of your
) posts to the WC.
)
) Serena Blaue
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:41:16 +0000
From: Barnaby McEwan (barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Bizarre email from Serena Blaue
Oh, yeah, I forgot. From the CC address in that email, it seems there's
a Yahoo list devoted to the 'fallacies' on this list. The address is
WC_Fallacies at yahoogroups dot com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:43:12 +0000
From: Pete Karaiskos (pkcompany netzero.net)
Subject: RE: Bizarre email from Serena Blaue
LOL!!! Hey, I've had several threads going on AT using my name in the
subject line. Not only that, but they seem to want to talk about me
regularly, and not only am I not a member of that list, I've NEVER been
a member of that list. Maybe I should start emailing each of them
privately and ask them to stop talking about me LOL!!!
Barnaby, this is precious.
Pete
Barnaby McEwan wrote:
)
) She emailed me privately after being booted from this list. I told her
) not to contact me again. She ignored that. I've been in touch with her
) ISP. Seems that she had more trouble understanding post policy than we
) thought, apparently believing she has a say in what's posted even though
)
) she's not a member.
)
) ) From :(SerenaBlaue [domain.invalid])
) ) Sent :28 March 2005 05:01:53
) ) To :WC_Fallacies yahoogroups.com
) ) CC :barnaby_mcewan [domain.invalid]
) ) Subject :RE: Jewish fundamentalists and Serena's biodynamic whining
) )
) ) Note: If you write about me, you are going to hear from me.
) ) If you don't want to hear from me, then keep me out of your
) ) posts to the WC.
) )
) ) Serena Blaue
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:37:24 +0000
From: Barnaby McEwan (barnaby_mcewan hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Bizarre email from Serena Blaue
Pete Karaiskos wrote:
) Maybe I should start emailing each of them
) privately and ask them to stop talking about me LOL!!!
She wasn't asking; a more nervous person might have felt threatened by
the tone of that email. So much for love 'n' light 'n' healing.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:12:45 +0000
From: Pete Karaiskos (pkcompany netzero.net)
Subject: RE: Bizarre email from Serena Blaue
Barnaby McEwan wrote:
)
)
) Pete Karaiskos wrote:
)
) ) Maybe I should start emailing each of them
) ) privately and ask them to stop talking about me LOL!!!
)
) She wasn't asking; a more nervous person might have felt threatened by
) the tone of that email. So much for love 'n' light 'n' healing.
The "big boys" on the AT list taunt me to come play with them (like I
really need THAT). There is some impled threat, like I'm a coward to
come face them in their playground. It's the type of childishness that
one sees when dysfunctional people gather. And who said there's no
BULLYING in Waldorf and Anthroposophy? LOL!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 01:37:45 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Defending Steiner
Hi Keith,
You wrote:
I know I feel threatened when I hear Neo-Nazi gangs or other white
supremicists are active. I have a feeling of foreboding whenever I hear
about these things. It is the same with racist or extremist literature
of any kind - I just don't like it. So, I understand your feelings.
In the passages you just cited, I wonder about the significance of the
planet Mercury and the meaning of the term "abnormal". It is not clear
to me how these elements operate in the spiritual scheme. Otherwise, I
don't think Steiner here is dishonouring the Ethiopians or other blacks,
or any other race. At no time does he indicate here that any race is
less worthy of consideration or respect than the other. By the structure
of those passages in the text is he setting in train prejudicial
attitudes in others by implying inferiority of certain races?
At best Steiner here is endeavouring to explain the spiritual origin and
criteria for biological race development. I'm not aware of anyone in
conventional science who can explain the mystery of racial differences
beyond citing genetic adaption and heritage - the matter level of
creation."
We would seem to be in agreement as I do not like racist literature of any
kind, either. I don't care for bigots or racists - and there is a
difference.
OK. I also agree that Steiner is endeavouring to explain the spiritual
origin and criteria for biological race development. In doing so, however,
it becomes a matter of faith on behalf of the reader as there is no way for
Steiner to "explain" his concepts rationally. To each his own.... He also
writes, however, of races ascending and descending and this is clearly
"racist" thought. For example, Steiner clearly spoke of the Native American
population dying out and he explains this via karma. On this very list we
have seen similar sentiments. I cannot see this as anything other than a
strange and disturbing excuse for genocide.
Steiner and race - I'd appreciate your views on the following:
"Questions of great importance are pressing upon us these days; questions
dealing with the education, not alone of the young, but of entire nations.
And, furthermore, we are confronted by the momentous educational question
which humanity will have to face in the future, and which cannot fail to be
recognized by all who note the great social upheavals of our time, and the
claims which are everywhere being advanced, be they the Labor Question, or
the Question of Peace. All these things are pre-occupying our anxious minds.
But all such questions are illuminated as soon as we recognize the nature of
the spiritual essence which lies at the back of our blood. Who can deny that
this question is closely linked to that of race, which at the present time
is once more coming markedly to the front? Yet this question of race is one
that we can never understand until we understand the mysteries of the blood
and of the results accruing from the mingling of the blood of different
races. And finally, there is yet one other question, the importance of which
is becoming more and more acute as we endeavor to extricate ourselves from
the hitherto aimless methods of dealing with it, and seek to approach it in
its more comprehensive bearings. This problem is that of colonization, which
crops up wherever civilized races come into contact with the uncivilized:
namely - To what extent are uncivilized peoples capable of becoming
civilized? How can an utterly barbaric savage become civilized? And in what
way ought we to deal with them? And here we have to consider not only the
feelings due to a vague morality, but we are also confronted by great,
serious, and vital problems of the very fact of existence itself.
Those who are not aware of the conditions governing a people - whether it be
on the up- or down-grade of its evolution, and whether the one or the other
is a matter conditioned by its blood - such people as these will, indeed, be
unlikely to hit on the right mode of introducing civilization to an alien
race. These are all matters which arise as soon as the Blood Question is
touched upon."
Occult Significance of Blood An Esoteric Study A Lecture By Rudolf Steiner
Berlin, October 25, 1906 GA 55
How do you feel when you read this, Keith?
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 02:08:03 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Defending Steiner
Hi Keith,
I'd also appreciate your thoughts on another Steiner quote from the same
lecture:
"When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of evolution
are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of civilization can be
assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a people that is the product
of its environment, into whose blood this environment has built itself, and
try to graft upon such a people a new form of civilization. The thing is
impossible. This is why certain aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon
as colonists came to their particular parts of the world. "
-Occult Significance of Blood An Esoteric Study A Lecture By Rudolf Steiner
Berlin, October 25, 1906 GA 55
Thanks in advance.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1713
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Defending Steiner
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
RE: Defending Steiner
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
Re: Defending Steiner
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 13:20:52 +0000
From: Keith McLean (kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au)
Subject: RE: Defending Steiner
Hi Walden,
After reading that article on the blood aspect, I've come to the view
that where this subject is concerned Steiner has something interesting
to say about the process, but his conclusions don't seem to reflect the
evidence. I don't agree that certain biological races have "no hope" or
are somehow lesser in importance because of environment or blood
conditioning. Steiner seems to leave the door open for those who would
twist or abuse his ideas here: he seems to be assuming that his ideas
will be taken the way he intends them - in the light of spiritual
science. Thing is, despite this, he seems to be describing something of
a constructive nature, the processes of the psyche and the body and how
this expresses itself in society. I agree, there is not much evidence to
support his claims, but this is an intuitive study for the individual:
does material science have any easier answers, and also contain
assumptions which may or may not help?
As to questions of power, (cultural) warfare, and politics and the
effect these have (genocide or otherwise), I could ask you about the
impact of the US power elite on Australia; or the thoughtlessness and/or
diplomatic interference of the US elite in Northern Ireland (and to some
extent the lack of ability of the UK in the matter); or the
cultural/social assumption that all Irish people are Catholic - "Irish
are Protestant? Oh come on, that's IMPOSSIBLE!!!"; or the impact of
globalisation on jobs - isn't that a form of discrimination, even
genocide (ie. loss of jobs=)reduced opportunity=)lower quality of
life=)loss and pain)? You see, these things can be dealt with, but at
the same time they can be swept under the carpet, while the majority of
the population struggle in their jobs too occupied to notice. You speak
of disadvantage, and I say disadvantage is suffered by most people,
anywhere in the world, throughout history.
You quote:
""Questions of great importance are pressing upon us these days;
questions dealing with the education, not alone of the young, but of
entire nations. And, furthermore, we are confronted by the momentous
educational question which humanity will have to face in the future, and
which cannot fail to be recognized by all who note the great social
upheavals of our time, and the claims which are everywhere being
advanced, be they the Labor Question, or the Question of Peace. All
these things are pre-occupying our anxious minds.
But all such questions are illuminated as soon as we recognize the
nature of the spiritual essence which lies at the back of our blood. Who
can deny that this question is closely linked to that of race, which at
the present time is once more coming markedly to the front? Yet this
question of race is one that we can never understand until we understand
the mysteries of the blood and of the results accruing from the mingling
of the blood of different races. And finally, there is yet one other
question, the importance of which is becoming more and more acute as we
endeavor to extricate ourselves from the hitherto aimless methods of
dealing with it, and seek to approach it in
its more comprehensive bearings. This problem is that of colonization,
which crops up wherever civilized races come into contact with the
uncivilized: namely - To what extent are uncivilized peoples capable of
becoming civilized? How can an utterly barbaric savage become civilized?
And in what way ought we to deal with them? And here we have to consider
not only the feelings due to a vague morality, but we are also
confronted by great, serious, and vital problems of the very fact of
existence itself.
Those who are not aware of the conditions governing a people - whether
it be on the up- or down-grade of its evolution, and whether the one or
the other is a matter conditioned by its blood - such people as these
will, indeed, be unlikely to hit on the right mode of introducing
civilization to an alien race. These are all matters which arise as soon
as the Blood Question is touched upon."
Occult Significance of Blood An Esoteric Study A Lecture By Rudolf
Steiner
Berlin, October 25, 1906 GA 55"
Colonization was and is a problem for the indigenenious people of the
world, upon whom Europeans imposed themselves economically, culturally
and politically. It seems clear it was also a problem for the Europeans,
basing their civilization in part on resource and land procurement.
Partially it was practically necessary to expand into other lands, and
in many cases it was plainly greed which motivated the policies. So, I
don't think it was very useful or desirable; but on the other hand, it
also spread the opportunity for education, knowledge and participation
in modern civilization.
It's clear from the article that Steiner had thought about the role of
blood in human consciousness and social activity, but his conclusions
don't work given the social reality (as we understand it). He was not
saying that blood relations or race were descriptive containers with
which to deny social opportunity to a given racial heritage, but that
everyone is influenced by the social environment in which they are
brought up: they receive genetic information from their parents, and
they absorb influences from their life experience exposed. The blood
contains physical and "psychic information", linked as it is to the
etheric stream or "lifeforce", as well as to the astral sphere which
contains emotional information. Because, according to Steiner, the
etheric always exists beyond the physical and records information from
living creatures, lifetimes of experiences are available to the person
who is currently incarnated: thier etheric body passes on information
to thier consciousness and to their physical form. Pathways exist
between these things because they are all part of the human being and
help make him/her function.
See here:
"Were man merely endowed with a brain, he would only be able to
reproduce pictures of the outer world within himself, and to experience
them within himself; he would then only be able to say: “The outer world
is reflected in me as in a mirror.” If, however, he is able to build up
a new form for this reflection of the external world, this form is no
longer merely the external world reflected, it is “I” A creature
possessed of a spinal cord and a brain perceives the reflection as its
inner life. But when a creature possesses blood, it experiences its
inner life as its own form. By means of the blood, assisted by the
oxygen of the external world, the individual body is formed according to
the pictures of the inner life. This formation is expressed as the
perception of the “I.”
The ego turns in two directions, and the blood expresses this fact
externally. The vision of the ego is directed inwards; its will is
turned outwards. The forces of the blood are directed inwards; they
build up the inner man, and again they are turned outwards to the oxygen
of the external world. This is why, on going to sleep, man sinks into
unconsciousness; he sinks into that which his consciousness can
experience in the blood. When, however, he again opens his eyes to the
outer world, his blood adds to its constructive forces the pictures
produced by the brain and the senses. Thus the blood stands midway, as
it were, between the inner world of pictures and the exterior living
world of form. This role becomes clear to us when we study two
phenomena, viz., ancestry — the relationship between conscious beings —
and experience in the world of external events. Ancestry, or descent,
places us where we stand in accordance with the law of blood
relationship. A person is born of a connection, a race, a tribe, a line
of ancestors, and what these ancestors have bequeathed to him is in his
blood. In the blood is gathered together, as it were, all that the
material past has constructed in man; and in the blood is also being
formed all that is being prepared for the future.
When, therefore, man temporarily suppresses his higher consciousness,
when he is in a hypnotic state, or one of somnambulism, or when he is
atavistically clairvoyant, he descends to a far deeper consciousness,
one wherein he becomes dreamily cognizant of the great cosmic laws, but
nevertheless perceives them much more clearly than the most vivid dreams
of ordinary sleep. At such times the activity of his brain is in
abeyance and during states of the deepest somnambulism this applies also
to the spinal cord. The man experiences the activities of his
sympathetic nervous system; that is to say, in a dim and hazy fashion he
senses the life of the entire cosmos. At such times the blood no longer
expresses pictures of the inner life which are produced by means of the
brain, but it presents those which the outer world has formed in it.
Now, however, we must bear in mind that the forces of his ancestors have
helped to make him what he is. Just as he inherits the shape of his nose
from an ancestor, so does he inherit the form of his whole body. At such
times of suppressed consciousness he senses the pictures of the outer
world; that is to say, his forebears are active in his blood, and at
such a time he dimly takes part in their remote life."
(Occult Significance of Blood An Esoteric Study A Lecture By Rudolf
Steiner
Berlin, October 25, 1906 GA 55 [for a web reference for this document,
see http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0055/19061025p01.html])
I think Steiner is talking about social upbringing as much as anything ,
as influenced by where you live and your family background. Clearly, it
makes no difference what your race is, who have the same opportunities
as anyone else, modified realistically according to the characteristics
of your culture, socio-economic status, and personal values. I disagree
with Steiner's apparently narrow opinion on this.
Thanks,
Keith
------
Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason
and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to
understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other
people.
- Molleen Matsumura
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 14:35:50 +0000
From: Keith McLean (kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au)
Subject: RE: Defending Steiner
Hi Walden,
You quoted:
""When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of
evolution are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of
civilization can be assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a
people that is the product of its environment, into whose blood this
environment has built itself, and try to graft upon such a people a new
form of civilization. The thing is impossible. This is why certain
aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as colonists came to their
particular parts of the world. "
-Occult Significance of Blood An Esoteric Study A Lecture By Rudolf
Steiner
Berlin, October 25, 1906 GA 55"
Like I was saying in my last post, colonialism was not helpful to
anyone. Aboriginal peoples certainly did "go under": they were
dispossessed of lands, suffered new diseases, were attacked and socially
controlled by white settlers. The reasons were: lack of awareness of
European intentions; lack of weapons technology to majorily resist the
forced settlements; suppression of culture and beliefs by the white
administrators; lack of a materialistic, structured culture, which would
deal better with these threats (a so-called level playing field with the
settlers). Now, of course, some of these issues are being redressed:
educational and employment opportunities, and professional and political
roles exist for people of indigenous heritage.
However, that said, there are still problems for many native people in
these areas. Steiner was right about the environment having a major role
on how a person or people respond to issues. For example, Australian
aborigines believe that the land and it's natural features are
spiritual, and that their identity is intimately connected and formed by
it: their creation myth - The Dreamtime - held that various powerful
nature spirits formed the land and it's creatures, often transforming
into them in the process; and the spirits of the tribe's ancestors also
occupy the land - this is why the land is sacred. It's important also,
of course, for survival and when the land was denied them by white
settlers and the government, the aboriginal tribes were immediately
disenfranchised - their districts was their ancestral homes and
therefore their's as descendents. In such a case, the social and psychic
features of a tribe are clearly influenced by the social and natural
environment by their interpretation and identification/s.
When white society attempted to assimilate the aborigines into the white
culture they made a number of misinformed and prejudiced assumptions.
Among these were: that aboriginal culture had no value; that removal of
children from their families, and placing them with white foster parents
would help "breed out" and civilization aborigines; Christian religion
and missions would "save them"; and aborginal economic conditions and
living standards of little concern or of low priority. The issues of
alcholism and family violence and unemployment have plagued aborigines
to this day. Many aborigines and others would point out or claim that
this is because aborigines have lost their spiritual heritage. I would
suggest too, that the former freedom of tribal life is a strong aspect
of this. Some tribal groups have succeeded in developing their
communities so more positive environments exists with opportunities
economic and spiritual.
It might be suggested that they are suffering only because of economic
and social discrimination, that this is the rational explanation and it
has nothing to do with spirituality concerns. However, if a given
individual or a group feel strongly in their bones that their spiritual
identity is associated with their environment - which defines their
traditions and beliefs - then this spirituality is real. In contrast, an
English person, for example, defines thier spirituality in more of an
internal sense and often in line with a technical culture. If the human
being has these influences, then the relationships cited by Steiner
between blood as a major nourisher of the body and of the psyche, and
the environment spiritual and physical has some applicability and merit
at least as a theory.
The following is from the same article has your quote above and includes
it:
"At the present time everything in a man's environment is impressed upon
his blood; hence the environment fashions the inner man in accordance
with the outer world. In the case of primitive man it was that which was
contained within the body that was more fully expressed in the blood. In
those early times the recollection of ancestral experiences was
inherited, and, along with this, good or evil tendencies. In the blood
of the descendants were to be traced the effects of the ancestors'
tendencies. Now, when the blood was mixed through exogamy, this close
connection with ancestors was severed, and the man began to live his own
personal life. Thus, in an unmixed blood is expressed the power of the
ancestral life, and in a mixed blood the power of personal experience.
The myths and legends tell of these things. They say: “That which has
power over thy blood, has power over thee.” This traditional power
ceased when it could no longer work upon the blood, because the latter's
capacity for responding to such power was extinguished by the admixture
of foreign blood. This statement holds good to the widest extent.
Whatever power it is that wishes to obtain the mastery over a man, that
power must work upon him in such a way that the working is expressed in
his blood. If, therefore, an evil power would influence a man, it must
be able to influence his blood. This is the deep and spiritual meaning
of the quotation from Faust. This is why the representative of the evil
principle says: “Sign thy name to the pact with thy blood. If once I
have thy name written in thy blood, then I can hold thee by that which
above all sways a man; then shall I have drawn thee over to myself.” For
whoever has mastery over the blood is master of the man himself, or of
the man's ego.
When two groups of people come into contact, as is in the case of
colonization, then those who are acquainted with the conditions of
evolution are able to foretell whether or not an alien form of
civilization can be assimilated by the others. Take, for example, a
people that is the product of its environment, into whose blood this
environment has built itself, and try to graft upon such a people a new
form of civilization. The thing is impossible. This is why certain
aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as colonists came to their
particular parts of the world.
It is from this point of view that the question will have to be
considered, and the idea that changes are capable of being forced upon
all and sundry will in time cease to be upheld, for it is useless to
demand from blood more than it can endure.
Modern science has discovered that if the blood of one animal is mixed
with that of another not akin to it, the blood of the one is fatal to
that of the other. This has been known to occultism for ages. If you
mingle the blood of human beings with that of the lower apes, the result
is destructive to the species, since the one is too far removed from the
other. If, again, you mingle the blood of man with that of the higher
apes, death does not ensue. Just as this mingling of the blood of
different species of animals brings about actual death when the types
are too remote, so, too, the ancient clairvoyance of undeveloped man was
killed when his blood was mixed with the blood of others who did not
belong to the same stock. The entire intellectual life of today is the
outcome of the mingling of blood, and the time is not far distant when
people will study the influence this had upon human life, and they will
be able to trace it back in the history of humanity when investigations
are once more conducted from this standpoint.
We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the case
of more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The physical
organism of man survives when strange blood comes in contact with
strange blood, [except, of course, in the case of incompatible blood
types, which mutually coagulate one another] but clairvoyant power
perishes under the influence of this mixing of blood, or exogamy."
Steiner is very specific about the mechanism, but very general about the
effect: he doesn't explain how one could ever judge incompatability of
blood according to environment. The evidence is not born out that
aboriginal peoples cannot be westernised and as educated as anyone else,
but deliberate politics and policies will present the barriers to
opportunity. What Steiner seems to recognize, though, is that tradition
is a powerful influence on identity and outlook, and he attributes this
to the whole human organism and psyche and it's development, ie. human
beings manifest themselves and their identity, drawing on influences
that are formative.
Thanks,
Keith
------
Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason
and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to
understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other
people.
- Molleen Matsumura
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 00:24:09 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Defending Steiner
Hi Keith,
You wrote:
"After reading that article on the blood aspect, I've come to the view
that where this subject is concerned Steiner has something interesting
to say about the process, but his conclusions don't seem to reflect the
evidence. I don't agree that certain biological races have "no hope" or
are somehow lesser in importance because of environment or blood
conditioning."
Then you and I are in agreement with regards to Steiner being wrong.
You wrote:
"Steiner seems to leave the door open for those who would
twist or abuse his ideas here: he seems to be assuming that his ideas
will be taken the way he intends them - in the light of spiritual
science."
You lost me there, Keith. One does not need any twisting or abusing of
Steiner's ideas; one need only read what Steiner actually wrote on the
subject of blood and race to discover his ideas. I thought this is what you
were getting at above?
You wrote:
"Thing is, despite this, he seems to be describing something of
a constructive nature, the processes of the psyche and the body and how
this expresses itself in society."
Constructive? To whom? Certainly not to First Nations.
You wrote:
"I agree, there is not much evidence to
support his claims, but this is an intuitive study for the individual:
does material science have any easier answers, and also contain
assumptions which may or may not help?"
Again - help who? If Steiner had no evidence to support his claims of blood
and higher and lower races, why not simply invite people to meditate, be
good and forget all this problematic talk about races?
You wrote:
"As to questions of power, (cultural) warfare, and politics and the
effect these have (genocide or otherwise), I could ask you about the
impact of the US power elite on Australia; or the thoughtlessness and/or
diplomatic interference of the US elite in Northern Ireland (and to some
extent the lack of ability of the UK in the matter); or the
cultural/social assumption that all Irish people are Catholic - "Irish
are Protestant? Oh come on, that's IMPOSSIBLE!!!"; or the impact of
globalisation on jobs - isn't that a form of discrimination, even
genocide (ie. loss of jobs=)reduced opportunity=)lower quality of
life=)loss and pain)? You see, these things can be dealt with, but at
the same time they can be swept under the carpet, while the majority of
the population struggle in their jobs too occupied to notice. You speak
of disadvantage, and I say disadvantage is suffered by most people,
anywhere in the world, throughout history."
Hey - there are plenty of "wrongs" on planet earth these days including
discrimination and genocide. We agree.
Absolutely, these things can be dealt with and shame on those who think they
are too occupied to notice. How are these things best dealt with?
By dealing with them - shedding light on discrimination and genocide,
talking about difficult issues and differences between people. Science can,
in fact, help us in dealing with some of these issues as can the capacity to
think critically and act with reason and with a real sense of justice. As
"human" beings. When we allow Steiner's ideas to become part of a faith
based ideology including higher and lower races and karmic reasons for
groups of people to "go under," we begin, in my opinion, a slide down the
slippery slope of becoming less-than-human beings. I find *that* slide as
disturbing as you find talk of neo-Nazis or white supremacists.
Racism still smells like racism no matter how much well intentioned (or
spiritual) perfume it wears.
You wrote:
"Colonization was and is a problem for the indigenenious people of the
world, upon whom Europeans imposed themselves economically, culturally
and politically. It seems clear it was also a problem for the Europeans,
basing their civilization in part on resource and land procurement.
Partially it was practically necessary to expand into other lands, and
in many cases it was plainly greed which motivated the policies. So, I
don't think it was very useful or desirable; but on the other hand, it
also spread the opportunity for education, knowledge and participation
in modern civilization."
Knowledge and participation? Education? I find the suggestion patronizing
and more than misguided and we could argue forever on those points.
Let's agree that greed motivated the invasion of the Americas
You wrote:
"It's clear from the article that Steiner had thought about the role of
blood in human consciousness and social activity, but his conclusions
don't work given the social reality (as we understand it).
Of course they don't work. I would encourage Anthroposophists to acknowledge
this.
You wrote:
"He was not saying that blood relations or race were descriptive containers
with
which to deny social opportunity to a given racial heritage, but that
everyone is influenced by the social environment in which they are
brought up: they receive genetic information from their parents, and
they absorb influences from their life experience exposed."
How can you read that into what Steiner actually did write? He was not
talking about denying social opportunity - he spoke about going up and down
in people's evolution and this involved "blood." He spoke about physical
bodies dying. He spoke about genocide. What "social opportunity" is afforded
a member of a group that is destined to die out? Why did Steiner write:
"This is why certain aboriginal peoples had to go under, as soon as
colonists came to their particular parts of the world. "
(Occult Significance of Blood An Esoteric Study A Lecture By Rudolf Steiner
Berlin, October 25, 1906 GA 55)
Or:
"Those who are not aware of the conditions governing a people - whether it
be
on the up- or down-grade of its evolution, and whether the one or the other
is a matter conditioned by its blood - such people as these will, indeed, be
unlikely to hit on the right mode of introducing civilization to an alien
race. These are all matters which arise as soon as the Blood Question is
touched upon."
(Occult Significance of Blood An Esoteric Study A Lecture By Rudolf Steiner
Berlin, October 25, 1906 GA 55)
You wrote:
"I think Steiner is talking about social upbringing as much as anything ,
as influenced by where you live and your family background. Clearly, it
makes no difference what your race is, who have the same opportunities
as anyone else, modified realistically according to the characteristics
of your culture, socio-economic status, and personal values. I disagree
with Steiner's apparently narrow opinion on this."
Social upbringings? OK - for the white folks of the current epoch. Others
are involved in downbringings. This is demonstrably clear in Steiner's
writings.
I must say I am encouraged that you tend to disagree with some of Steiner's
opinions but am still curious to see such blatant racism spoken of in terms
of being an "apparently narrow opinion."
Meditate, be good to each other and our fellow creatures and planet earth?
No problem. Accept that various races rise and fall and link this to blood
and skin colour and a cosmic, karmic plan?
Problem.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1714
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Defending Steiner
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
RE: Defending Steiner
By pkcompany netzero.net
RE: Defending Steiner
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
Re: Fwd: RE: Defending Steiner
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Defending Steiner
By pkcompany netzero.net
RE: Defending Steiner
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
RE: Defending Steiner
By pkcompany netzero.net
eBook Release: STRIPPING THE GURUS (re: Steiner)
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:12:49 +0000
From: Keith McLean (kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au)
Subject: RE: Defending Steiner
Hi Walden,
[You quoted and said:]
""Steiner seems to leave the door open for those who would
twist or abuse his ideas here: he seems to be assuming that his ideas
will be taken the way he intends them - in the light of spiritual
science.""
"You lost me there, Keith. One does not need any twisting or abusing of
Steiner's ideas; one need only read what Steiner actually wrote on the
subject of blood and race to discover his ideas. I thought this is what
you
were getting at above?"
------My response:
Except he was using these ideas in a different context and meaning. In
light of the ENTIRE article, and the goals of Anthroposophy he was not
clearly not interested in dehumanisation, but he seemed to have a rigid
idea about non European societies. People with a bad attitude and few
ethics would gladly twist and use these elements to justify their
actions, regardless of their original context.
--
[You quoted and said:]
""You wrote:
"Thing is, despite this, he seems to be describing something of
a constructive nature, the processes of the psyche and the body and how
this expresses itself in society."
Constructive? To whom? Certainly not to First Nations.""
------My response:
Constructive to those who took a proper scientific and open-minded
attitude - not the thug down the street, or the so-called "respectable"
power broker. "First Nations" represents Native Americans, right? Hey,
well my ancestors were Irish celts and Scottish Highlanders: you seem to
be implying "European=no ancestors or ancestral validity", but what's
the difference? We are all descended from tribal cultures, many of whom
were the target of violence and disenfranchisement.
--
[You quoted and said:]
""You wrote:
"I agree, there is not much evidence to
support his claims, but this is an intuitive study for the individual:
does material science have any easier answers, and also contain
assumptions which may or may not help?"
Again - help who? If Steiner had no evidence to support his claims of
blood
and higher and lower races, why not simply invite people to meditate, be
good and forget all this problematic talk about races?"
------My Response:
Help those who study the phenomena accurately and obtain evidence, and
endeavour to add to society's knowledge. Steiner apparently obtained
information that was evidence to him, but for us it's theory until
verified (which he recommends everyone do before accepting his
statements, incidently). Like I say, he seems to have a rigid view,