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-- Topica Digest --
RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: YES to early reading!
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: YES to early reading!
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
By mom22gr8kidz comcast.net
Re: Waldorf Ed. & Anthrop..."Hollow Elistists"
By realwaldorf hotmail.com
Re: YES to early reading!
By nmfoss2004 hotmail.com
I look at Waldorf/Anthroposophy as one small part of New Age
By Yarngal webtv.net
Knitting and Waldorf
By Yarngal webtv.net
Weleda did not use Nazi prisoners for labor
By SerenaBlaue aol.com
RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
By mom22gr8kidz comcast.net
RE: YES to early reading!
By mom22gr8kidz comcast.net
Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
By mom22gr8kidz comcast.net
RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
By mom22gr8kidz comcast.net
RE: I look at Waldorf/Anthroposophy as one small part of New Age
By realwaldorf hotmail.com
Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy off-list
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy off-list
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:40:34 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
Serena wrote:
)the lawsuit is an unmistakeable action that seeks to, among other things,
)create a legal opinion that declares Anthroposophy a religion.
It seeks to acknowledge the obvious then. Pick any volume of Steiner off the
shelf at random and read 4 or 5 paragraphs. It's a religious doctrine.
Serena:
)So -- children should not be restricted in any way?
So typical of the ludicrous diversions thrown up by Waldorf supporters, once
they're done whining that critics "hate" them. Who said children should not
be restricted in any way, Serena? Ask my son if I restrict him in any way
(G)
)In my experience, our society agrees that children should be protected from
)a number of things-- violence, sexual content, and so forth, for good
)reason.
I so agree. It's just that I also found the Waldorf teachers thought my
child should be protected from Barney the purple dinosaur, the alphabet
song, the Beatles, Spot books, black crayons, books about dinosaurs, the
sight of his mother in sweatpants (I should have worn my apron to jog I
guess), hearing other children sing a TV commercial, seeing anyone use a
microwave oven, looking at a magazine lying on the coffee table, send away
for cheap prizes from a cereal box, play a video game for 5 minutes in the
dentist's waiting room, eat a Happy Meal once in awhile and collect junky
media-themed toys, and other ridiculous things.
They were *not* concerned he be protected from violent themes. The
curriculum is stuffed with violent themes even for the youngest children!
"Middle Europe fantasy world" comes to mind again. Gun play is bad but sword
play is good. (Explain this to me without reference to anthroposophy if you
can, or at least without reference to medieval chivalry.) The playground was
Lord of the Flies - heck the *classroom* was Lord of the Flies or maybe
something from Brothers Grimm. Basic safety was often disregarded and
children's emotional well-being was thought to be best safeguarded by making
sure the teachers were wearing the appropriate-color dresses.
)Why are AAP's suggestions reasonabe but not those suggested by Waldorf
)Schools?
Who said they aren't? What we ask is that they *explain* their reasons - all
of them, the reasons specific to their doctrines too, not just the ones that
happen to agree with the AAP (while scornfully dismissing the ones that
don't as "materialistic science"; note that they certainly aren't quoting
the AAP when it comes to vaccination).
)Parents' evenings are now the norm.
Get real. Parents' evenings have always been the norm. It's a question of
what's presented and what's not presented, at those evenings.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:03:36 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: YES to early reading!
Abd:
)Diana has no time to even indicate in a few words what she is talking
)about, but plenty of time to assert that I "don't know what [I'm] talking
)about."
That's right. You'll have to accept my sincere apologies, I am behind here
and elsewhere and cannot go into it. It is not correct that Chinese and
similar languages are learned without reference to phonics.
)I did not assert that the *language* was learned in that way. I asserted
)that ideograms were learned that way
Yes - true - I replied hastily and imprecisely as I am doing now. Copying an
ideogram is the same activity as copying a letter in the English alphabet.
This isn't how you learn to read in either of these languages. It is how you
learn to write your letters.
)Nicole wrote that her child "couldn't read at all." If a child can see
)words and identify them, she can read, at least to some degree.
No - or at least not farther than her short-term memory will take her. This
will work for awhile, but will become hugely burdensome once a few thousand
words at most have been memorized. (For most people - I suppose it's easier
for people who have photographic memories.)
)[By the way, there have been some proposals for rationalizing English
)spelling, so that one *could* read such English phonetically much more
)accurately
Yes - and these disputes reach nearly the level of vitriol here, believe it
or not. Not kidding. I don't think English will get further "rationalized,"
personally - unless it's by the incorporation of internet symbols and
emoticons and the shorthand the kids use on instant messaging ("r u there?"
- some of this is not laziness as a parent might assume, but has actually
evolved this way because these kids learned letter names and never did
systematic phonics - today's teenagers had mostly whole language - when they
think of the sound /ar/ they really think "r" and not "are.")
)and easily than is possible with our irregularities; but I
)wonder if our readers know that Arabic was, from the beginning of modern
)orthography (i.e., after the revelation of the Qur'an) written with
)phonetic accuracy; the goal, presumably, was to preserve the pronunciation
)of the Qur'an. Originally the vowels were not marked, but marks were added
)for the vowels early on. They are still missing from most written Arabic,
)usually only being seen in texts of the Qur'an.]
Interesting, no I didn't know that, thanks.
)Let's place this in context. Waldorf education delays reading, perhaps a
)year beyond the norm in U.S. public education.
Often 2 years, as they often urge a late start to first grade anyway. But,
to be fair, this is a trend in other schools too; so whether it is really a
1- or 2-year delay, we could dispute.
)Does Waldorf education produce children who are "burned out?" It does not,
No, I was referring to the charge Waldorf educators often make, that kids
who start reading "early" are "burnt out" by 5th or 6th grade. I had this
argument with the guy on anthroposophy_tomorrow last spring, I was thinking
you were there then but maybe not.
)However, skilled readers do not use phonics except with unfamiliar words.
Yes, I've heard this argument a thousand times too. Phonics is not all there
is to learning to read. But when you say, skilled readers don't do this
"except with unfamiliar words," think about it, you're saying they (we) *do*
do it to . . . learn to read. Every word is unfamiliar until you've learned
it.
)Rather, skilled readers visually identify the whole word and sometimes
)whole phrases. Skilled spellers *visualize* the whole word, phonetics only
)provides rough guidance. There's been a fair amount of work done on this, I
)recall from about twenty years ago.
It's incorrect, largely disproved at least as an instructional strategy. I'm
sure everyone's seen those emails that claim to prove that you can read any
word as long as the first and last letter are in the right place, the
letters in the middle are mixed up every which way. The claims are based on
several fallacies. Again I'm sorry I'm going to have to drop this, I'm over
my head timewise by a long shot.
)Yes, any reader who cannot use phonetics, to predict how a written word
)will probably be pronounced, is going to be under a burden of difficulty.
An understatement. That person probably is not going to succeed in school,
or ever enjoy reading or use it for purposes beyond daily utilitarian needs.
)The best method of learning to read and write is to read and write. This is
)necessarily by rote at the very beginning. Even with phonics, associating
)the symbol with the sound is a matter of learning something totally
)arbitrary.
Yes it is. There are approximately 43 phonemes in English (it's disputed).
It's much easier to learn these, and a set of correspondences - a couple of
hundred common ones - between these phonemes and various letters and letter
combinations (that's phonics), which will permit you to decode most texts,
than to learn hundreds of thousands of arbitrary connections between whole
*words* and the jumbles of letters that represent them. If there is no
system to those jumbles, every time, you're starting with nothing. It's like
trying to memorize the telephone book. You could as well spell "elephant"
"cjzishteess" - now remember that's "elephant" okay? If you'd like to
graduate from high school or college, you'll need the space in your brain
for other stuff than memorizing thousands upon thousands of meaningless
strings of letters that bear no consistent relationship to the words they
represent.
)My point is, quite simply, that copying out a book, *as part of a program
)that does provide additional tools*, can be an excellent tool;
I really have no objection to anyone copying out a book. I would probably
enjoy such a thing myself, weirdo that I am :)
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:07:16 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
Diana makes excellent points, as always. (I had to laugh at the idea of protecting children from the sight of their mothers in sweatpants. LOL! Though I can certainly fess up to wishing to protect my kids from seeing me first thing in the morning when I was up all night finishing an article! THAT sight, everyone ought to be protected from!)
Parents Evenings at Waldorf are nothing new. Come on! Even back 10 years ago when my daughter was in the Children's Garden at our local Waldorf school, they had parent evenings. But as Diana says, it is what is said and not said during those events that matters.
Toward the end of our Waldorf "journey," when I had finally twigged onto the fact that Anthroposophy contained the answers to all my questions about the school, I brought a tape recorder and a notebook to a parent evening in my daughters' kindergarten class. (At this point, my older one was in fourth grade and we were poised to take her out.) I was a newspaper reporter at the time, and as such, was accustomed to taking notes on class meetings so that I could write them up into a little newsletter for the other parents who couldn't come to parent nights. I asked for permission to tape record, which was given rather reluctantly, but given nonetheless. The evening went on, as it usually did, with teachers talking about how wonderful the children were, what they were baking, the puppet shows they saw, etc. It came to question time, and I raised my hand and began to ask questions about Anthroposophy. I asked why my daughter was not allowed to use a black crayon to draw with. Most parents looked up in amazement, as they had never considered that the school would restrict what color crayons their kids could use. The teacher, aware of the tape recorder, uneasily told us that black is "spiritually" not a good color for small children. Neither was brown, we found out. I asked how the children of color in the classroom could draw themselves, and was told the teachers could show them how to "smudge" various acceptably colored crayons together to form brown and black. Parents became visibly uneasy, especially me, because my daughter is Asian. I then asked other questions, such as about Ahriman, about whether teachers believed fairies and gnomes were real, and if they could explain how the snack of the day was aligned with teachings of Anthroposophy. I asked them to explain the role karma played in the classroom. The teachers became visibly more uneasy, and some parents had their mouths hanging open. "Why didn't you tell us this stuff?" one asked. "You never asked," a teacher said. I stated that that was nonsense, that without basic information about Waldorf, parents do not know enough to even ask the right questions. One mother was crying.
I wrote a newsletter up about the evening, covering thoroughly the questions and answers that had been raised. I gave, as always, a copy to the teacher to look at before I sent it out. She held onto it, and each time I asked her to approve it as what transpired at the meeting, she hesitated. I finally distributed it without her say so, because it was an accurate account of the evening. In the meantime, I received a call from the school saying I should leave the cassette tape of the evening at the office. Huh? That was my tape. I had permission to record the evening. And now the school was demanding I give it to them? I declined to do so. I still have it.
Are these the actions of a school that is comfortable with people asking questions and seeking answers? No, they are not.
Parent evenings. LOL!
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
Sent: Nov 30, 2004 3:40 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
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Serena wrote:
)the lawsuit is an unmistakeable action that seeks to, among other things,
)create a legal opinion that declares Anthroposophy a religion.
It seeks to acknowledge the obvious then. Pick any volume of Steiner off the
shelf at random and read 4 or 5 paragraphs. It's a religious doctrine.
Serena:
)So -- children should not be restricted in any way?
So typical of the ludicrous diversions thrown up by Waldorf supporters, once
they're done whining that critics "hate" them. Who said children should not
be restricted in any way, Serena? Ask my son if I restrict him in any way
(G)
)In my experience, our society agrees that children should be protected from
)a number of things-- violence, sexual content, and so forth, for good
)reason.
I so agree. It's just that I also found the Waldorf teachers thought my
child should be protected from Barney the purple dinosaur, the alphabet
song, the Beatles, Spot books, black crayons, books about dinosaurs, the
sight of his mother in sweatpants (I should have worn my apron to jog I
guess), hearing other children sing a TV commercial, seeing anyone use a
microwave oven, looking at a magazine lying on the coffee table, send away
for cheap prizes from a cereal box, play a video game for 5 minutes in the
dentist's waiting room, eat a Happy Meal once in awhile and collect junky
media-themed toys, and other ridiculous things.
They were *not* concerned he be protected from violent themes. The
curriculum is stuffed with violent themes even for the youngest children!
"Middle Europe fantasy world" comes to mind again. Gun play is bad but sword
play is good. (Explain this to me without reference to anthroposophy if you
can, or at least without reference to medieval chivalry.) The playground was
Lord of the Flies - heck the *classroom* was Lord of the Flies or maybe
something from Brothers Grimm. Basic safety was often disregarded and
children's emotional well-being was thought to be best safeguarded by making
sure the teachers were wearing the appropriate-color dresses.
)Why are AAP's suggestions reasonabe but not those suggested by Waldorf
)Schools?
Who said they aren't? What we ask is that they *explain* their reasons - all
of them, the reasons specific to their doctrines too, not just the ones that
happen to agree with the AAP (while scornfully dismissing the ones that
don't as "materialistic science"; note that they certainly aren't quoting
the AAP when it comes to vaccination).
)Parents' evenings are now the norm.
Get real. Parents' evenings have always been the norm. It's a question of
what's presented and what's not presented, at those evenings.
Diana
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==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:11:33 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: RE: YES to early reading!
Chinese children commonly use a method of phonetics called "Ba Pa Ma Fo." It connects sounds with characters.
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
Sent: Nov 30, 2004 4:03 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: YES to early reading!
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Abd:
)Diana has no time to even indicate in a few words what she is talking
)about, but plenty of time to assert that I "don't know what [I'm] talking
)about."
That's right. You'll have to accept my sincere apologies, I am behind here
and elsewhere and cannot go into it. It is not correct that Chinese and
similar languages are learned without reference to phonics.
)I did not assert that the *language* was learned in that way. I asserted
)that ideograms were learned that way
Yes - true - I replied hastily and imprecisely as I am doing now. Copying an
ideogram is the same activity as copying a letter in the English alphabet.
This isn't how you learn to read in either of these languages. It is how you
learn to write your letters.
)Nicole wrote that her child "couldn't read at all." If a child can see
)words and identify them, she can read, at least to some degree.
No - or at least not farther than her short-term memory will take her. This
will work for awhile, but will become hugely burdensome once a few thousand
words at most have been memorized. (For most people - I suppose it's easier
for people who have photographic memories.)
)[By the way, there have been some proposals for rationalizing English
)spelling, so that one *could* read such English phonetically much more
)accurately
Yes - and these disputes reach nearly the level of vitriol here, believe it
or not. Not kidding. I don't think English will get further "rationalized,"
personally - unless it's by the incorporation of internet symbols and
emoticons and the shorthand the kids use on instant messaging ("r u there?"
- some of this is not laziness as a parent might assume, but has actually
evolved this way because these kids learned letter names and never did
systematic phonics - today's teenagers had mostly whole language - when they
think of the sound /ar/ they really think "r" and not "are.")
)and easily than is possible with our irregularities; but I
)wonder if our readers know that Arabic was, from the beginning of modern
)orthography (i.e., after the revelation of the Qur'an) written with
)phonetic accuracy; the goal, presumably, was to preserve the pronunciation
)of the Qur'an. Originally the vowels were not marked, but marks were added
)for the vowels early on. They are still missing from most written Arabic,
)usually only being seen in texts of the Qur'an.]
Interesting, no I didn't know that, thanks.
)Let's place this in context. Waldorf education delays reading, perhaps a
)year beyond the norm in U.S. public education.
Often 2 years, as they often urge a late start to first grade anyway. But,
to be fair, this is a trend in other schools too; so whether it is really a
1- or 2-year delay, we could dispute.
)Does Waldorf education produce children who are "burned out?" It does not,
No, I was referring to the charge Waldorf educators often make, that kids
who start reading "early" are "burnt out" by 5th or 6th grade. I had this
argument with the guy on anthroposophy_tomorrow last spring, I was thinking
you were there then but maybe not.
)However, skilled readers do not use phonics except with unfamiliar words.
Yes, I've heard this argument a thousand times too. Phonics is not all there
is to learning to read. But when you say, skilled readers don't do this
"except with unfamiliar words," think about it, you're saying they (we) *do*
do it to . . . learn to read. Every word is unfamiliar until you've learned
it.
)Rather, skilled readers visually identify the whole word and sometimes
)whole phrases. Skilled spellers *visualize* the whole word, phonetics only
)provides rough guidance. There's been a fair amount of work done on this, I
)recall from about twenty years ago.
It's incorrect, largely disproved at least as an instructional strategy. I'm
sure everyone's seen those emails that claim to prove that you can read any
word as long as the first and last letter are in the right place, the
letters in the middle are mixed up every which way. The claims are based on
several fallacies. Again I'm sorry I'm going to have to drop this, I'm over
my head timewise by a long shot.
)Yes, any reader who cannot use phonetics, to predict how a written word
)will probably be pronounced, is going to be under a burden of difficulty.
An understatement. That person probably is not going to succeed in school,
or ever enjoy reading or use it for purposes beyond daily utilitarian needs.
)The best method of learning to read and write is to read and write. This is
)necessarily by rote at the very beginning. Even with phonics, associating
)the symbol with the sound is a matter of learning something totally
)arbitrary.
Yes it is. There are approximately 43 phonemes in English (it's disputed).
It's much easier to learn these, and a set of correspondences - a couple of
hundred common ones - between these phonemes and various letters and letter
combinations (that's phonics), which will permit you to decode most texts,
than to learn hundreds of thousands of arbitrary connections between whole
*words* and the jumbles of letters that represent them. If there is no
system to those jumbles, every time, you're starting with nothing. It's like
trying to memorize the telephone book. You could as well spell "elephant"
"cjzishteess" - now remember that's "elephant" okay? If you'd like to
graduate from high school or college, you'll need the space in your brain
for other stuff than memorizing thousands upon thousands of meaningless
strings of letters that bear no consistent relationship to the words they
represent.
)My point is, quite simply, that copying out a book, *as part of a program
)that does provide additional tools*, can be an excellent tool;
I really have no objection to anyone copying out a book. I would probably
enjoy such a thing myself, weirdo that I am :)
Diana
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==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:21:47 +0000
From: mom22gr8kidz comcast.net
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
Jill writes: Another simple question, if I may...what is the difference
between The Christian Community and Christianity?
Serena:
Go to: http://www.thechristiancommunity.org/
I did go to this website...I wanted to know what people are saying about it. In fact there is a branch close by to my home and I'm thinking about going...not to convert...just to experience.
Jill
-------------- Original message --------------
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)
)
) Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy walden
) Nov 29, 2004 23:17 PST
)
) Walden writes:
)
) Hi Serena,
)
) Welcome to the list.
)
) You wrote:
)
) "In just the last few days, I've learned that Waldorf Critics believe that
) Waldorf Schools and Anthroposophy are a cult, are that people involved
) with them are Nazis or linked to Nazi thought, are like Nazis, that anyone
) involved with these groups is promoting racial discrimination, that one
) should expect that anyone involved with either is insincere, lying, false,
) abusive, and above all, secretive and is working to recruit new members
) into the cult. Anthroposophical ideas and practices are sick, worthless,
) wrong, lies, racist, anti-semitic..."
)
) Is this really what you have learned? Is this ALL that you have learned?
) When I read the above passage I was reminded of other Anthroposophists here
) who seem to have a hard time understanding what they read on this list.
) Waldorf critics are not of One Mind. I wonder if this is where
) Anthroposophists miss the boat with regards to discussing
) Waldorf/Anthroposophy/Religion/Materialism, etc? You most likely have heard
) a myriad of opinions expressed here and yes--some of them seem disturbing to
) you. I *still* remember how troubled I was while reading this list some
) years ago. In that respect I understand how easy it is to lump "Waldorf
) Critics" into a nice little basket, study the basket and ignore the
) contents. Here's a challenge: let go of the judgments and hurt feelings and
) try listen to the message. Don't get stuck on one or two sentences from one
) or two critics. The message is more than that.
)
) Serena:
) Thank you for your welcome to the list. No, this is not all I've learned.
) I've read that some
) WC'ers believe that Waldorf methods simply don't work or are doubtful that
) any child can
) come out of a Waldorf School with an education that prepares them for life.
) They assume
) the negative without proof. Their "sample" (if you will) is severely
) limited, anecdotal, and
) flawed, but it is apparently enough for them to make sweeping judgments and
) advise
) others to stay away from both the W. schools, Camphill and Anthroposophy.
) Not very scientific.
)
) Do WC'ers have different opinions? Obviously. But the loudest voices as
) well as actions
) carry the day: the lawsuit is an unmistakeable action that seeks to, among
) other things,
) create a legal opinion that declares Anthroposophy a religion. The PLANS/WC
) is
) busy shouting to the world that Anthroposophy is a destructive, secretive
) cult with
) ties to Nazi theory, fostering anti-semiticism and racism that recruits
) unwary victims.
)
) Walden:
) (Serena)
) "According to some WC'ers, this cult seeks to restrict the freedom
) of children and anyone else who comes in contact with them."
)
) Waldorf education (in the early years) definitely restricts the freedom of
) children. That's a big chunk of Steiner's message and Waldorf education. Do
) you dispute this? Restrictions at home are also encouraged - TV, electronic
) music, certain foods, activities, etc. Note: this does not mean I am in
) favour of TV, etc.
)
) Serena:
) So -- children should not be restricted in any way? In my experience,
) our society agrees that children should be protected from a number of things
) --
) violence, sexual content, and so forth, for good reason. If Waldorf said
) "limit TV/media for kids" for no reason, I would agree that it is arbitrary
) and
) questionable. But there are reasons, including the latest AAP research that
) recommends limiting children's access to TV. Are you now going to go after
) the AAP for this research and rail against their vile attempts to restrict
) children's
) freedom? There is a growing consensus that TV contributes to childhood
) obesity as well as do junk foods. Why are AAP's suggestions reasonabe but
) not those suggested by Waldorf Schools?
)
) Walden:
) (Serena)
) "They are incapable of change or of being reformed. And on and on and on.
) They have to be stopped before they take over the world by stealth (a theory
) I saw somewhere back in the WC archives)."
)
) Have you been taking Linda lessons? Sarcasm and exaggeration to make a point
) are one thing, but ... whoa! Communication and openness are prerequisites
) for change and reform. Stealth is an apt term, imo.With your comment
) (above) do you agree that change and reform are needed?
)
) Serena:
) No anger here, nor sarcasm: this is what I have read on the WC list. There
) has been a listmember who was convinced that this was all a plot to create
) a One World government -- and it had to be stopped.
)
) Serena:
) "Sounds to me like a call to rend and destroy, don't you think? Maybe
) not with pitchforks and shovels and hoes: the tools of the modern
) witch hunts are legal torts and the Internet smear with a conference or
) two thrown in for credibility. And repetition, endless repetition to set it
) firmly in people's minds."
)
) Walden:
) Wow. Internet Smear. OK. Try this: If Waldorf promoters (schools, AWSNA,
) various "initiatives," etc.) would speak openly of the
) religious/spiritual/occult nature of the "movement," there would be NO PLANS
) or Waldorf Critics list. Guaranteed. I saw Michael Moore interviewed a while
) back - a mainstream American talk show where the glitzy host asked him why
) he gets away with calling F 9/11 a "documentary" when it really is more like
) propaganda? His answer was something about if mainstream media told the news
) as it really happens, there would be no need for him to create anything -
) documentary or otherwise. Internet Smear, Serena? Internet Reality Check.
) Or physics - action/reaction. Karma. Or... when one throws BS around,
) something is bound to grow somewhere. Fertilizer. And it stinks, too.
) Critics of Waldorf were born from such "fertilizer."
)
) Serena:
) There is a vast amount of information, in print and on the web, about
) Anthroposophy, the Waldorf School movement, Camphill, biodynamics,
) organic architecture, medical work, and so on. All schools have
) libraries or shops offering books, etc., to parents who want to read
) more about the foundations of the work. Parents' evenings are now
) the norm. Research and studies confirming some of WE's tenets
) are trickling out. Many thoughtful parents -- the vast majority who
) will never become AS members -- find inspiration from Waldorf,
) even if it is for a short time and their children go to other schools
) (as my own child did). Waldorf-inspired homeschooling is blossoming.
) And lives are changed - most often for the better, in my opinion.
)
) Any movement should expect -- and welcome -- mirroring and criticism.
) It should also be practicing self-criticism and self-evaluation.
)
) Movements or groups go through metamorphosis and change: the
) Anthroposophical movement (as well as its initiatives) are immersed
) in this process as we speak. Attentive AS members are well aware
) of this sometimes painful but exciting process.
)
) Being aware and respondng to PLANS is a part of this process,
) in my opinion -- I don't speak for the AS in any way. But it is only
) a small part.
)
) It's an illusion that the AS + WE can satisfy the WC list or PLANS.
) Nothing the A. Society or the schools do will ever be enough. Probably
) because the very basis for the Society's existence is questioned
) and challenged as a cult/sect/Nazi-related, racist, etc.
)
) And, if the truth were told, PLANS and its allies are astonished and
) angry at the very notion that the work being done has been accepted
) as good or valid -- and they have vowed to tell the "truth"to the world.
) Believing with all their hearts that they know the "truth", when will
) PLANS stop wanting to tell the "truth"?
)
) Don't forget PLANS' neat Catch 22: the more we try to tell people about
) Anthroposophy, Waldorf Scools, biodynamics, organic architecture,
) art of movement (eurythmy) and so on, the more we will be accused of
) trying to recruit, hoodwink, lure, brainwash unwary innocents and lies
) to the public.
)
) Walden:
)
)
) Serena:
) "Do you notice how you are pressuring Jill to see only what you want
) her to see? What about her own experiences...do they matter? So
) far you haven't taken anything she's said seriously."
)
) Walden:
) I don't know who you are addressing here, Serena. If Jill feels "pressured"
) into reading this list and suggested articles ( I suggested one - by me- as
) she asked for my thoughts and another by Eugene Schwartz, a master Waldorf
) teacher of teachers), then you don't give her much credit. And here I
) thought she had simply chosen to join this list looking for ... well...
) critiques of Waldorf. The name of the list kinda gives us away. My hunch is
) she figured that much out already.
)
) -Walden
)
) Serena:
) I have given Jill credit throughout. I didn't say that she was "pressured
) into reading this list."
) When she mentioned the positive things she had seen, you all had
) only negative things to say, i.e. she's being duped by Camphill and its
) co-workers. You are telling her how to frame her experiences. I trust
) she will make her own experiences and evaluate them herself.
)
) Jill writes: Another simple question, if I may...what is the difference
) between The Christian Community and Christianity?
)
) Go to: http://www.thechristiancommunity.org/
)
) Best,
)
) Serena Blaue
)
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:29:38 -0600
From: "Rudy Stein" (realwaldorf hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Ed. & Anthrop..."Hollow Elistists"
)At 12:12 PM 11/30/2004, Serena Blaue wrote:
))Serena:
))Closed system? _All_ texts are now published: there is no special
))knowledge
))given only to inside members. There is no "philosophical unity": the body
))of work is too large and there has never been the requirement for
))"agreement" to be a member.
Abdul wrote:
)
)What Serena writes is substantially true, in my opinion; however, there
)*is* special knowledge involved in anthroposophy, as in any esotericism.
)This special knowledge, generally, is not transmitted through books, nor
)even verbally.
)
)In Zen Buddhism, for example, there are special knowledges which students
)seek for years, coming to them through a process of insight; simply knowing
)the words which might be used to express the knowledge falls far short.
)
)This kind of esotericism is not closed except naturally. Making no
)presumption about who is blind and who is not, in the country of the closed
)eyes, those who open their eyes will gain a knowledge not available to
)those with eyes tightly shut. Would a society of those who can see be a
)"closed system"?
)
)Sure, you can argue that the vision of the anthroposophists is deluded,
)generated by self-hypnosis, a claim I've seen on this list and which is
)almost impossible to refute (as presented, it is not falsifiable, for the
)scientifically inclined), but that would simply be shared delusion, not the
)characteristic of a secret society.
)
)In fact, Steiner broke the ancient rule of esotericism: don't talk about it
)to the uninitiated, i.e., to those who don't have the experience necessary
)to process the information; time will tell if he was wise in doing this. In
)this he followed in the footsteps of Blavatsky; after all, the "Secret
)Doctrine" was no longer secret if you could buy the book. Or was it?
Rudy's reply:
Steiner's hope was for the "uninitiated" to become initiates themselves
through reading his text multiple times, and developing a "clarvoyance" to
the higher realms. In reality, as others on this list have stated, many
anthroposophists cloak themselves in such, thinking (and successfully
fooling others) that they have gained heights in those realms. In most
cases, they are following the human nature of "lifting" themselves above
the masses, which in fact simply makes them "hollow elitists". I admire
anthros like Eugene Schwarz because he has done more to genuinely follow
Steiner's challenge (and thereby can address faults in Waldorf/Anthrop in
the way it is practiced). Somewhat like comparing the late Mother Teresa to
the many unethical clergy out there.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:46:09 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss2004 hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: YES to early reading!
Abd wrote: Nicole wrote that her child "couldn't read at all." If a child can see
words and identify them, she can read, at least to some degree. To be sure,
she might not be reading well, and if that is all she does, she's going to
be hampered, but, after all, this was first grade.
Nicole: Abd, when I said she couldn't read at all, I meant exactly that. She could not "see words and identify them". She could copy forms from the board, but she could not identify words, any words, in what she had written. When I started to teach her to read myself (at age 7), she did not recognize even one word at first. We started from the very beginning (with the Oxford Reading Tree books, a British reading scheme which I highly recommend).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:18:17 -0600
From: Yarngal webtv.net (Yarngal)
Subject: I look at Waldorf/Anthroposophy as one small part of New Age
HI. To be plain and honest here, I really believe Waldorf Education,
ANthroposophy etc. to be just one small part of a wider New Age Movement
(NAM).
I was involved in the New Age Movement after I experienced severe abuse
as a child and teen and I was born to a secular Jewish family (with a
history of mental illness on my mother's side, which caused the wider
Jewish Community to reject and ostracize my very mentally ill and
abusive mother and by extension the rest of my family including me.
Anyway, that experience (being alienated from the Jewish Community,
which I admit I STILL am) caused me to run away a lot and experiment
with different religions hoping to find "a substitute family" and love
and peace and all the hippie stuff. I am 48 now, but then I was younger.
ANyway, I got caught up in the hippie and later the New AGe Movement
believing all the false promises of love, peace, and "community" (to me
"community" meant to be with a healthy loving substitute family and I
was STARVED for safe love and nurturing and very needy indeed.I have
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in fact, from the early abuse).
To make a long story short, (I also suffer from lifelong biochemical
Major Depression which runs in my family) I found out that many of the
"loving family" of people I trusted only wanted to use me for sex (some
men I trusted), only wanted to get any money out of me, and a lot of
them accused me of being "too needy" and worse, yet they discouraged me
from seeking mainstream medical and psychiatric help and I was left
untreated, self-destructive, and in great pain and trauma. Some of the
hippie/new age men used me sexually.
It was in that context I met the Waldorf people here. Well, I just
consider them more "New Age" although their lives are centered around
the Waldorf School for their children and organic farming around here.
So most of them rejected me and that HURT at first! It was subtle and
not so subtle rejection. I couldn't give them money, time, or other
things they wanted out of me. Okay, some were nice to me and some still
say "hi" (superficially--they don't want to talk at length about painful
subjects like abuse and depression. They label those subjects "too
negative" and avoid getting to close to me). I do some handicrafts as a
hobby and as a part of therapy, and I was also attracted to their
interests in hand crafts and knitting and weaving. They will still
gladly talk with me about crafts anytime, and about gardening, the
weather, politics (they are the local anti-war movement here too). But
NOT the deep personal and painful issues and not about abuse issues. I
feel if they won't accept ALL of me then I cannot trust them and allow
myself to get close with them. I also felt that some of them had a
"hidden agenda" which I couldn't figure out. Okay others I know who are
NOT involved with their community consider them to be "clique-like" and
closed and even elitist. Some locals call them "earth-heads" but
tolerate them due to the business and financial rewards all these "earth
heads" bring here to this poor rural area. The property values are going
up (along with the property taxes) due to the influx of the (I will just
call them new agers, although some of them call themselves "old hippies"
and "progressives") new agers attracted to the Waldorf school, organic
farming, their community life (for those they accept).
At the same time the "warm, fuzzy" appearance is what attracted me to
them in the first place. I admit I idealized them when I first moved
here. I was homeless and severely depressed and very traumatized and not
thinking clearly at all.
It's a long story, but they wanted me to join their community UNTIL they
found out the extent of my severe trauma and depression, etc.
Then they tried different "alternative healing" methods on me which
didn't work at all. So then some of them BLAMED/shamed me.
I connected with the local professional mental health clinics afterwards
who DID help me and I am NOT self-destructive now,although of course my
chronic PTSD, etc. are still part of my life. I just found a few
supportive friends (including those who also didn't fit into the new
age/Waldorf community for similar reasons as me) and I am actually glad
now that I am NOT part of the new age community. I am polite though,
and I want to be a tolerant person, but I am usually polite to everyone
anyway unless they are abusive and then I try to avoid them.
I stopped trying to win acceptance by the local new agers. I accept
the fact that my childhood (which I always have remembered, with no
"repressed memories") was horrible and deprived, but I can NEVER find a
"substitute family" (community) and I have to live with my grief and
pain over that, and I would rather be alone than be hurt and rejected
again! Well I do have the few good friends. In fact, my search for that
loving, substitute family only caused me to get re-victimized by some
men and by some very exploitive and psychologically abusive and mean
people who put on a "warm and fuzzy" front (in the greater hippie/new
age movement). They saw how VULNERABLE I am and exploited, used, and
re-victimized me.
Ha ha, I would rather be with my cat than with people who are mean!
I am NOT saying all new age people are bad and evil and exploitative,
and I met people like myself (emotionally needy and traumatized) who
were also attracted to the new age movement for the same reasons as I
was: starved for nurturing, inner peace, acceptance, and safe,
non-sexual love and friendship. Plus spiritual peace..
I LEFT the new age movement in 1994.
I now have some reservations and scepticism about those who call
themselves "spiritual" and make a big show of being "spiritual".
I am interested in this list because I really never got deeply involved
with the Waldorf Education part of it, and I do want to know what to
expect from those who are part of it who I must deal with in my daily
life, especially through the local medical system. I recently heard of
the term "Anthroposophic Medicine" (WHAT is it?) and I sure hope no
local doctors and other health care professionals would push it on me
against my will. I purposely avoid seeing the obviously new age health
care professionals, but what if I were in an emergency situation, where
I have no choice on who cares for me?
I have other chronic illnesses, too, so this is a big reality for me
(needing medical care on a long term basis). I learned the hard way to
first talk with those who LEFT a particular group to find out about any
harmful practices of a group, before trusting a group at it's word.
Actually my good friends now say I am a caring, giving, generous,and
kind, sensitive person. I'll always share my food, etc. with those in
need. I have no problem listening to others' psychological pain and
trauma. I don't see it as being "too negative"! It is a part of life
and bad things really do happen to innocent people, which has NOTHING to
do with "karma".
How can we stop abuse if we "bury our heads in the sand" and avoid
hearing about it?
I know one woman, who was and may still be a Waldorf teacher, who goes
out of her way to avoid others who are in any type of emotional pain or
distress or deep need, and she says they are "too negative" for her. So
what if a child in her class were in distress?
Best Wishes, Yarngal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:34:37 -0600
From: Yarngal webtv.net (Yarngal)
Subject: Knitting and Waldorf
Okay there is one good thing I need to say about Waldorf: they sure do
sell beautiful yarns (which are expensive) in their shops and I like to
wear comfortable cotton clothes (but not pure wool), even though I also
use and wear synthetic fibers (which is a big "no no" to many new age
people I've known).
Does Waldorf like handicrafts and knitting just for the beautiful look
and quality of the items?
I love handmade things.
I love the time and care put into handmade things, and the high quality
in many (well made) handmade things.
WHY do Waldorf communities place such emphasis on natural fibers,
knitting, weaving, and other hand-crafted things? Is there a deeper,
spiritual meaning to them?
I am not attacking their love of handmade things. I love handmade
things, too.
I just want to know peoples' reasons for why they do certain things . I
also like Amish quilts and I am not Amish.
Best Wishes, Yarngal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:13:30 EST
From: SerenaBlaue aol.com
Subject: Weleda did not use Nazi prisoners for labor
Lisa writes:
I do believe that there has been discussion on this list in the past about
the Nazi Party's sympathy with the Anthro movement back in those days, and how
an Anthro company (Weleda) used some prisoners of the Nazis for labor, and as
the subjects of freezing-water experiments with their products. (A European
group, Aktion Kinder De Holocaust, has apparently asked Weleda for an apology for
what happened during WWII. As far as a I know, no apology has been
forthcoming yet.)
Serena:
Weleda did not use prisoners of the Nazis for labor: this is a WC myth.
Sune Nordwall addresses this, but I thought that I should check out
the AKDH website to be sure and googled Nazi + Weleda. See below.
Dr. Rascher had the cream sent to his private address in Munich, not
the concentration camp.
Weleda did not know how the cream would be used; it had already
provided cream to soldiers in the field. AKDH considered the episode
closed after Weleda agreed that its dealings (as recorded in its firm's
papers) would be open to historical research and that they regretted and
apologized for the fact that they provided cream (even if they didn't know
how it would be used) for degrading experiments on human beings.
Weleda apologized and distanced itself from Rascher's profoundly
horrible human experimentation.
No doubt this whole story is already in the WC archives, but I don't mind
having a look-around myself and can read German.
Sune Nordwall links to a site that reveals that Weleda was not
approving when it's head gardener (mentioned below) went to
Dachau on his own initiative. See the heading The Garden at Dachau
at: http://www.passagen.se/jul2004/index_pop.shtml
Best,
Serena Blaue
http://www.akdh.ch/ps/ps_05.html
Crème für KZ: Weleda bedauert
Sonntags Zeitung vom 12. April 1998, Nr. 15
ARLESHEIM - Die Basler Aktion Kinder des Holocaust wirft der Firma Weleda
vor, sie stehle sich mit Nichtwissen aus der Verantwortung. Die deutsche
Tochterfirma hatte einem berüchtigten KZ-Arzt in Dachau Frostschutzcrème geliefert.
Wenn Samuel Althof, Sprecher der 1992 gegründeten Aktion Kinder des
Holocaust, Antisemitismus oder Rassismus entdeckt, kennt er kein Pardon. Dies musste
auch die Geschäftsleitung der Heilmittel - und Naturkosmetikfirma Weleda in
Arlesheim erfahren, die dem anthroposophischen Gedankengut von Rudolf Steiner
verpflichtet ist. Es geht um eine Lieferung von 20 Kilo Frostschutzcrème der
Weleda -- Tochter in Schwäbisch-Gmünd an den KZ-Arzt und SS - Hauptsturmführer
Sigmund Rascher im Kriegsjahr 1943, der in Dachau Unterkühlungsversuche an
Häftlingen vornahm.
Rascher, ein Protégé von SS - Chef Heinrich Himmler, forschte nach Lösungen
für die Probleme von ins Meer abgestürzten, unterkühlten Piloten. Für die
grausamen Kälteexperimente benutzte der skrupellose Arzt Häftlinge aus dem KZ
Dachau, die in voller Fliegeruniform ins Wasser gelegt wurden. «Sobald die
Unterkühlung 28 Grad erreicht hatte, starb die Versuchsperson mit Sicherheit, trotz
aller Versuche zur Rettung», schrieb er in einem Zwischenbericht. Tatsache ist
auch, dass der langjährige Betreuer der Weleda -Heilkräuteranlagen in
Schwäbisch-Gmünd von 1941 bis 1945 Obergärtner im KZ Dachau war.
Dass die Weleda den Stabsarzt Rascher beliefert hatte und im Gegenzug aus
Beständen des SS - Sanitsätshauptamts die zur Herstellung der Frostschutzcréme
benötigte Vaseline als Rohstoff erhielt, führte bereits in den achtziger Jahren
in Deutschland zu Vorwürfen an das Unternehmen.
Jetzt wehrt sich Moritz Aebersold, Weleda- Gruppenleitungsmitglied am
Stammsitz in Arlesheim. Die Frostschutzcréme sei in den Kriegszeiten von
verschiedenen Stellen der Wehrmacht für deutsche Soldaten bestellt worden, «um diese an
der Front vor starkem Kälteeinfluss zu schützen». Rascher habe die Créme in
seiner Funktion als Wehrmachtsoffizier bestellt und an seine Münchner
Privatadresse liefern lassen, ohne zu sagen, wofür er sie brauche. «Über die
menschenverachtende Verwendung war die Geschäftsleitung nicht informiert», versichert
Aebersold. Weleda verurteile und bedaure die Menschenversuche zutiefst.
Die Stellungnahme der Firmenleitung genügt Althof nicht: «Das Unternehmen
soll sich ihrem Nichtwissen stellen und einen konkreten Tatbeweis ihres Bedauerns
liefern.» Aebersold sieht jedoch kein Bedürfnis nach Wiedergutmachung. Doch
werde jetzt ein Historiker gestützt auf die Weleda -Archive - eine umfassende
Darstellung der Vorgänge abliefern. Iso Ambühl
Anmerkung AKdH: Die Aktion Kinder des Holocaust hat nie eine finanzielle
Wiedergutmachung von Weleda gefordert! Die folgenden 2 Forderungen wurden in einem
Schreiben der Aktion Kinder des Holocaust an WELEDA gestellt:
1. WELEDA soll die eigene Firmengeschichte in der Zeit des Zweiten
Weltkrieges von unabhängigen Historikern erforschen lassen und die Ergebnisse der
Öffentlichkeit zugänglich machen.
2. Die Aktion Kinder des Holocaust fordert WELEDA auf die Lieferung von
WELEDA an die Deutsche Wehrmacht sowie an den KZ-Arzt Rascher gesamthaft und
eindeutig zu verurteilen und dazu unmissverständlich Stellung zu beziehen.
Nachdem WELEDA sich bei der AKdH schriftlich für die oben beschriebenen
Vorgänge entschuldigte und distanzierte und der Universität Basel (Historisches
Seminar) die Möglichkeit einer wissenschaftlichen Untersuchung (öffnung der
Archive) zugesichert hat, betrachtet die AKdH diese Angelegenheit als erledigt.
(c) Aktion Kinder des Holocaust
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:38:38 +0000
From: mom22gr8kidz comcast.net
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
The trouble with activist-speak is that it isn't a real language that
can communicate thoughts or ideas. It's more like a monogram, an
official insignia employed to identify which activist "school" the
speaker trained under.
"My buzzwords are meaner than your buzzwords!"
Linda
I've been thinking this since I joined the group, but wasn't about to accuse anyone.
Jill :-)
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) Gideon Mills wrote:
) )
) )
) )
) ) mom22gr8kidz comcast.net wrote:
) ) "This may seem obvious to most of you, but could each of you tell me if
) ) you are for or against Waldorf."
) )
) ) It isn't a matter of being "for or against Waldorf." It has to do with
) ) exposing the truth about Waldorf. Someone who favors race-thinking and
) ) its consequent outcomes would be "for" Waldorf.
) )
)
) The trouble with activist-speak is that it isn't a real language that
) can communicate thoughts or ideas. It's more like a monogram, an
) official insignia employed to identify which activist "school" the
) speaker trained under.
)
) "My buzzwords are meaner than your buzzwords!"
)
) Linda
)
) Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:42:38 +0000
From: mom22gr8kidz comcast.net
Subject: RE: YES to early reading!
She can already
do this at three, i.e., look at a page and tell me what it says, but this
is almost certainly based on pictures rather than the letters
Isn't this how all kids learn to read? My children and every child I've ever known starts to retell stories that have been read to them...they've probably memorized the context but it is nonetheless the beginning stages of reading.
Jill :-)
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)
) At 12:06 AM 11/29/2004, Diana Winters wrote:
) )Abd wrote:
) )
) ) )Ahem. They write their textbooks. To do that, you have to be able to write.
) ) )Unless you think that they are somehow just copying the *shapes* on the
) ) )chalkboard.
) )
) )Yes, "somehow" that's what they're doing. What do you mean, "somehow"?
) )Unless they have actually learned to read, they're copying the shapes, yes.
) )Writing and copying aren't the same thing, Abd.
)
) To write a page by just copying shapes is possible. To write an entire
) textbook by just copying shapes (specifically the shapes of letters and
) words), without being able to read, is not quite impossible, but quite
) unlikely. Generally, if a child is exposed repetitively to the shapes of
) letters and words, in a context where the words (i.e, the sounds) are heard
) and connected to those shapes, the child will learn to read.
)
) )Nicole:
) )
) ) )This is exactly what my daughter was doing in the first grade. She
) ) )couldn't read at all, but was copying cursive script from the board. It was
) ) )nothing more than an elaborate form-drawing exercise.
)
) Called writing. For the child to continue this for a year and not learn to
) read ... I'd be looking for some special problem. It could be the child, it
) could be the teacher, it could even be the parent, but it would certainly
) not be normal.
)
) I mentioned in my earlier posts ideographic languages, like Chinese. The
) standard method of learning to read and write Chinese would be precisely to
) copy the shapes, over and over. There is no phonics in ideographic Chinese.
) Now, the phonetic aspect of English, with all its irregularities, is
) valuable and probably makes it easier to learn to read and write English
) (and Chinese is now written phonetically in some contexts), but the shapes
) are still arbitrary and learned by rote and repetition.
)
) A pupil who copies the forms without identifying the component shapes will
) make certain kinds of mistakes: I've seen this when teaching prison inmates
) to read Arabic. They often have copied written Arabic without knowing the
) letters, and, while it can usually be decoded, it is also obviously wrong,
) unless the copyist has been *very* careful; otherwise, for example,
) irrelevant aspects of the writing may be emphasized at the expense of what
) is essential.
)
) One thing that I hope I do when my child brings home her first books that
) she has copied is to read them to her. Over and over. And I'd gradually, as
) quickly as she could manage it, enjoy her reading it to me. She can already
) do this at three, i.e., look at a page and tell me what it says, but this
) is almost certainly based on pictures rather than the letters. Likewise,
) she points to a red octagon with letters along the road and tells me that
) it says "Stop." I don't recall ever telling her this.... but she picks up
) things like this from a single event. Which is reasonably normal at her age.
)
) Now, if she could do that, why could not Nicole's child look at a word she
) has written many times, presumably with some context being given, and then
) say, at least sometimes, what word it indicates? Again, unless she is
) specially challenged, it would indicate to me that she has been given
) insufficient context. Perhaps the teacher simply left the students alone
) with the blackboard while she read her trashy novels (or anthroposophical
) "self-help" books -- I've never seen such a book, by the way, they seem to
) exist, though, in the imagination of some critics), and perhaps the parent
) was insufficiently involved, expecting the school to provide complete
) education -- after all, isn't that what they are being paid to do?
)
) So I'm somewhat skeptical about Nicole's report; though it should be noted
) that I did indicate various possible explanations that would allow the
) report to be fully true. More likely, though, it was exaggerated. The
) little girl would be able to read, at least to some extent, after a school
) year of this; but Nicole did not tell us that the daughter was at the
) school for a full year. Perhaps she removed the child immediately,
) horrified by the rote learning and the useless and senseless tedium she
) imagined? Did she respond to those first written books with joy and
) appreciation? Or was she angry when she found that the books were merely
) copied?
)
) *Copying a book is a task which requires substantial and valuable skills,
) patience being among them. Though it has gone out of fashion, I've done it
) a number of times as an adult. I've never regretted it.*
)
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:16:43 +0000
From: mom22gr8kidz comcast.net
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
Let me see if I'm grasping at any of this...
Are the "critics" on the board, those who have had direct Waldorf experiences with their own children, asserting that if they were only told of the anthro connection, the experiences would not have been so negative? Come on! It sounds like you weren't told and when you discovered it, you didn't like it. It's not just a matter of disclosure. If your children were in a school and you weren't told what was going on but you were happy with the result, would you all still be so upset?
Some of the stuff I've read...and believe me I've saved it all and will research it further and continue to study it...reminds me of the parallels between Catholicism and Dan Brown's fictional work, The Da Vinci Code. If I believed everything I read in there, I'd be hard pressed to have remained faithful. Before I get a barrage of responses, I know, I know, The Da Vinci Code is fiction. I'm simply making a comparison to the secret societies. Is Anthroposophy a secret society? I'm hardly competent to answer or even make a judgment. But if it is not, this board makes it out to be. If it is, well then perhaps parents need to research the choices they make for their children before signing on the dotted line. (Another oversimplification, I'm sure, not intended to insult anyone's parenting at all.) I find myself wondering how anyone could sign their children up for something that they didn't know anything about! I mean, especially your children. It's beyond me.
Another poster wrote that most Waldorf schools cater to the affluent. What is the tuition for a Waldorf School? Are parents simply trying to "afford" their children something different, expensive and thereby perhaps better, only to realize later on that it is different, expensive and damaging? Just more thoughts from a beginner.
I'm so glad I found this board. Less than a month ago I never even heard the words Anthroposophy or Waldorf Education. I consider everything I learn here and on other sites regarding the subject to be very beneficial.
Thank you all!
Jill :-)
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)
) Hi Serena,
) I'm glad you're spending some time here.
)
) Serena wrote:
) " No, this is not all I've learned.
) I've read that some WC'ers believe that Waldorf methods simply don't work or
) are doubtful that any child can
) come out of a Waldorf School with an education that prepares them for life."
)
) Well, "some" WC'ers might hold those opinions but I'd like to know how one
) defines Waldorf methods as "working" or not? I would also question ANY
) educational institution's ability to prepare a person for life. I have
) mentioned here before that I know a few Waldorf grads - kids who have gone
) right through high school in Waldorf. I cannot compare their abilities,
) academic abilities, etc. with non-Waldorf grads but I can say that a couple
) of them seem to have social problems while one of them is extremely bright
) and socially competent. Again, I cannot say that Waldorf "prepared" any of
) them more than another school might have prepared other students. I do
) think, however, that a relatively small, sheltered *pretty darn different*
) community (Waldorf school) can become very isolated within the greater
) community. Not that the greater community (mainstream schools) is better,
) mind you - just that I have known Waldorf kids to feel isolated from their
) non-Waldorf peers. It can feel quite lonely. I have been told this more
) than once. It helps if the kids and their parents understand and agree with
) the Anthroposophical principles that "guide" them, but this is not often the
) case, making matters more confusing.
)
) "They assume the negative without proof. Their "sample" (if you will) is
) severely
) limited, anecdotal, and flawed, but it is apparently enough for them to make
) sweeping judgments and
) advise others to stay away from both the W. schools, Camphill and
) Anthroposophy.
) Not very scientific."
)
) Actually, there is plenty of proof to show that many families who enroll in
) Waldorf schools without understanding the reality of Anthro/Waldorf can and
) do have disturbing experiences. If those schools told those families about
) the reality of Anthro/Waldorf PRIOR to them joining... the disturbing
) experiences would not be as common. Instead, many Waldorf schools continue
) to mislead prospective Waldorf families with warm fuzzy explanations about
) the school via websites and PR.
)
) "Do WC'ers have different opinions? Obviously. But the loudest voices as
) well as actions carry the day: the lawsuit is an unmistakeable action that
) seeks to, among
) other things, create a legal opinion that declares Anthroposophy a
) religion."
)
) If change had happened or was happening, I doubt the lawsuit would be here
) today. As a misleading Waldorf PR campaign continues to confuse people, the
) lawsuit is an obvious reaction. Accountability, Serena. Wouldn't it be nice
) if Dan and PLANS did not feel obliged to go to court? There is a reason.
)
) "The PLANS/WC is busy shouting to the world that Anthroposophy is a
) destructive, secretive cult with
) ties to Nazi theory, fostering anti-semiticism and racism that recruits
) unwary victims."
)
) This made me smile. This is *exactly* what I believed some years ago. I
) thought Staudenmeir was deranged and Dan had Ahriman juice for breakfast. As
) bizarre at it seems, however, your comments are not that far off the mark.
) Important: I don't believe that most Waldorf folks (teachers, parents,etc)
) are Nazis, hate Jews or belong to the KKK. I do think, however, that by not
) acknowledging Steiner's beliefs on race and Judaism, the connection is
) there. Denial is the real problem. The same denial we see in Waldorf schools
) with regards to not explaining Anthroposophy and its roll in the schools.
) Which brings us back to accountability.
)
) Serena previously wrote:
) "According to some WC'ers, this cult seeks to restrict the freedom of
) children and anyone else who comes in contact with them."
)
) I previously replied:
) "Waldorf education (in the early years) definitely restricts the freedom of
) children. That's a big chunk of Steiner's message and Waldorf education. Do
) you dispute this? Restrictions at home are also encouraged - TV, electronic
) music, certain foods, activities, etc. Note: this does not mean I am in
) favour of TV, etc.
)
) Serena then wrote:
) "So -- children should not be restricted in any way? In my experience,
) our society agrees that children should be protected from a number of things
) --violence, sexual content, and so forth, for good reason."
)
) Look at this little snippet of dialogue - it is interesting. You initially
) claimed that "According to some WC'ers, this cult seeks to restrict the
) freedom of children and anyone else who comes in contact with them." I
) replied that yes, this is a Waldorf position. Then you infer that
) restrictions on children is a good thing - countering your initial argument
) about WC'ers. And you did not take into account my last "Note." By the
) way, I do think there should be some "restrictions" for kids but only when
) they understand the meaning of the restriction. And they really should agree
) to such restrictions after understanding the "whys." I talk with my kids
) constantly these days about TV, junk food, peer pressure, religion, ideas,
) right and wrong.... We actually communicate and explain how we feel. And
) so-called "restrictions" actually make sense to them while sometimes I feel
) obliged to change my position based on *their* feelings and needs. In
) Waldorf, however, this approach would mean parents and kids understanding
) and agreeing with the concept of Ahriman, gnomes and reincarnation - just to
) name a few.
)
) "If Waldorf said "limit TV/media for kids" for no reason, I would agree
) that it is arbitrary
) and questionable. But there are reasons, including the latest AAP research
) that
) recommends limiting children's access to TV. Are you now going to go after
) the AAP for this research and rail against their vile attempts to restrict
) children's freedom? There is a growing consensus that TV contributes to
) childhood
) obesity as well as do junk foods. Why are AAP's suggestions reasonabe but
) not those suggested by Waldorf Schools?"
)
) Because the AAP does not use occultism as a foundation for the research.
) Listen: I have no trouble accepting the negative impact of too much TV,
) computer games, bad food and lack of exercise on children's lives these
) days. Tell me this - at Waldorf teacher faculty meetings, do you think there
) is as much discussion about the latest scientific research on obesity, junk
) food and media impact on children as there is about Steiner's "visions.?" Do
) teachers study more modern research than Steiner lectures? I think there is
) value in sharing information and having communities where issues of health
) and media are discussed honestly. Using valid research, however, to further
) a spiritual/religious movement is unethical, imo.
)
) "There is a vast amount of information, in print and on the web, about
) Anthroposophy, the Waldorf School movement, Camphill, biodynamics,
) organic architecture, medical work, and so on. "
)
) Grrr. Please don't confuse "organic" with biodynamics or Steiner's trip.
) Maybe not your intent but there is a distinction.
)
) "All schools have libraries or shops offering books, etc., to parents who
) want to read
) more about the foundations of the work. Parents' evenings are now the
) norm."
)
) And why are some of these "foundations of the work" not readily available to
) parents BEFORE they enroll their kids?
) What parents continue to be served is a mish-mash of the warm and fuzzies.
) Once you're *in* you are invited to Parent's evenings where you *might* hear
) about Steiner's mission and the karmic connection your child has with
) her/his teacher preparing them for a future incarnation....
)
) "Research and studies confirming some of WE's tenets are trickling out."
)
) PLEASE share some of these studies!! PLEASE??
)
) "Many thoughtful parents -- the vast majority who will never become AS
) members -- find inspiration from Waldorf,
) even if it is for a short time and their children go to other schools
) (as my own child did). Waldorf-inspired homeschooling is blossoming.
) And lives are changed - most often for the better, in my opinion."
)
) And many try it, discover the shortcomings and potential danger and move
) on... but they still eat organic and bake bread! Lives are changed for the
) better - who knows? Better for Anthroposophists to have more
) anthroposophists I suppose. More the merrier on Vulcan at some point down
) the road.
)
) "Any movement should expect -- and welcome -- mirroring and criticism.It
) should also be practicing self-criticism and self-evaluation."
)
) Keyword: Should.
)
) "Movements or groups go through metamorphosis and change: the
) Anthroposophical movement (as well as its initiatives) are immersed
) in this process as we speak. Attentive AS members are well aware
) of this sometimes painful but exciting process.
)
) Being aware and respondng to PLANS is a part of this process,
) in my opinion -- I don't speak for the AS in any way. But it is only
) a small part."
)
) Please tell us more of this metamorphosis. And PLANS is helping? Then
) that's a good thing - no?
)
) "It's an illusion that the AS + WE can satisfy the WC list or PLANS.
) Nothing the A. Society or the schools do will ever be enough."
)
) How can you possibly know this? Dare to think outside of the box! It's not
) all that bad, Serena - you might be surprised. The views of Eugene Schwartz,
) for example, are not that far from the *impulse* of PLANS
)
) "Probably because the very basis for the Society's existence is questioned
) and challenged as a cult/sect/Nazi-related, racist, etc."
)
) Well, during the internal mirror process, you folks are going to need to
) deal with those issues. It really has nothing to do with anything other than
) what Rudolf Steiner actually said or wrote. You can pretend it's Waldorf
) critics spreading hate or nonsense but none of us has invented anything.
) This is something YOU will need to deal with. I find some of what Steiner
) said and wrote highly offensive and potentially dangerous. *I* did not write
) this stuff, Serena. I have seen, however, how Anthroposophy and the message
) can affect people - affecting me and my family and friends - and I find it
) disturbing. Steiner's ideas of racial and spiritual hierarchy disturb me a
) great deal. If you think you can separate the "difficult" bits of Steiner's
) message from the foundation, you are mistaken, imo. If you are part of the
) movement, you will need to deal with it - eventually.
)
) "Don't forget PLANS' neat Catch 22: the more we try to tell people about
) Anthroposophy, Waldorf Scools, biodynamics, organic architecture,
) art of movement (eurythmy) and so on, the more we will be accused of
) trying to recruit, hoodwink, lure, brainwash unwary innocents and lies
) to the public."
)
) I am not a member of PLANS but I completely disagree with your assessment.
) The more you tell people about the reality of Anthro/Waldorf, the happier I
) am!
) If you want to believe that lazuring the classroom walls will prepare
) students to see the Sun at Midnight - go right ahead. Just tell me about it
) before I send you my kids and my money. Please.
)
)
) -Walden
)
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) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:27:26 +0000
From: mom22gr8kidz comcast.net
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
You go girl! I would love to have been a fly on the lazure wall of that meeting!
I have to agree though with Waldorf on one point...mom in sweatpants is sometimes better left unseen! LOL!
Jill :-)
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)
) Diana makes excellent points, as always. (I had to laugh at the idea of
) protecting children from the sight of their mothers in sweatpants. LOL! Though I
) can certainly fess up to wishing to protect my kids from seeing me first thing
) in the morning when I was up all night finishing an article! THAT sight,
) everyone ought to be protected from!)
)
) Parents Evenings at Waldorf are nothing new. Come on! Even back 10 years ago
) when my daughter was in the Children's Garden at our local Waldorf school, they
) had parent evenings. But as Diana says, it is what is said and not said during
) those events that matters.
)
) Toward the end of our Waldorf "journey," when I had finally twigged onto the
) fact that Anthroposophy contained the answers to all my questions about the
) school, I brought a tape recorder and a notebook to a parent evening in my
) daughters' kindergarten class. (At this point, my older one was in fourth grade
) and we were poised to take her out.) I was a newspaper reporter at the time, and
) as such, was accustomed to taking notes on class meetings so that I could write
) them up into a little newsletter for the other parents who couldn't come to
) parent nights. I asked for permission to tape record, which was given rather
) reluctantly, but given nonetheless. The evening went on, as it usually did, with
) teachers talking about how wonderful the children were, what they were baking,
) the puppet shows they saw, etc. It came to question time, and I raised my hand
) and began to ask questions about Anthroposophy. I asked why my daughter was not
) allowed to use a black crayon to draw with. Most parents looked up in amazement,
) as they had never considered that the school would restrict what color crayons
) their kids could use. The teacher, aware of the tape recorder, uneasily told us
) that black is "spiritually" not a good color for small children. Neither was
) brown, we found out. I asked how the children of color in the classroom could
) draw themselves, and was told the teachers could show them how to "smudge"
) various acceptably colored crayons together to form brown and black. Parents
) became visibly uneasy, especially me, because my daughter is Asian. I then asked
) other questions, such as about Ahriman, about whether teachers believed fairies
) and gnomes were real, and if they could explain how the snack of the day was
) aligned with teachings of Anthroposophy. I asked them to explain the role karma
) played in the classroom. The teachers became visibly more uneasy, and some
) parents had their mouths hanging open. "Why didn't you tell us this stuff?" one
) asked. "You never asked," a teacher said. I stated that that was nonsense, that
) without basic information about Waldorf, parents do not know enough to even ask
) the right questions. One mother was crying.
)
) I wrote a newsletter up about the evening, covering thoroughly the questions and
) answers that had been raised. I gave, as always, a copy to the teacher to look
) at before I sent it out. She held onto it, and each time I asked her to approve
) it as what transpired at the meeting, she hesitated. I finally distributed it
) without her say so, because it was an accurate account of the evening. In the
) meantime, I received a call from the school saying I should leave the cassette
) tape of the evening at the office. Huh? That was my tape. I had permission to
) record the evening. And now the school was demanding I give it to them? I
) declined to do so. I still have it.
)
) Are these the actions of a school that is comfortable with people asking
) questions and seeking answers? No, they are not.
)
) Parent evenings. LOL!
)
) Lisa
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Diana Winters
) Sent: Nov 30, 2004 3:40 PM
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
)
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)
) Serena wrote:
)
) )the lawsuit is an unmistakeable action that seeks to, among other things,
) )create a legal opinion that declares Anthroposophy a religion.
)
) It seeks to acknowledge the obvious then. Pick any volume of Steiner off the
) shelf at random and read 4 or 5 paragraphs. It's a religious doctrine.
)
)
) Serena:
) )So -- children should not be restricted in any way?
)
) So typical of the ludicrous diversions thrown up by Waldorf supporters, once
) they're done whining that critics "hate" them. Who said children should not
) be restricted in any way, Serena? Ask my son if I restrict him in any way
)
)
) )In my experience, our society agrees that children should be protected from
) )a number of things-- violence, sexual content, and so forth, for good
) )reason.
)
) I so agree. It's just that I also found the Waldorf teachers thought my
) child should be protected from Barney the purple dinosaur, the alphabet
) song, the Beatles, Spot books, black crayons, books about dinosaurs, the
) sight of his mother in sweatpants (I should have worn my apron to jog I
) guess), hearing other children sing a TV commercial, seeing anyone use a
) microwave oven, looking at a magazine lying on the coffee table, send away
) for cheap prizes from a cereal box, play a video game for 5 minutes in the
) dentist's waiting room, eat a Happy Meal once in awhile and collect junky
) media-themed toys, and other ridiculous things.
)
) They were *not* concerned he be protected from violent themes. The
) curriculum is stuffed with violent themes even for the youngest children!
) "Middle Europe fantasy world" comes to mind again. Gun play is bad but sword
) play is good. (Explain this to me without reference to anthroposophy if you
) can, or at least without reference to medieval chivalry.) The playground was
) Lord of the Flies - heck the *classroom* was Lord of the Flies or maybe
) something from Brothers Grimm. Basic safety was often disregarded and
) children's emotional well-being was thought to be best safeguarded by making
) sure the teachers were wearing the appropriate-color dresses.
)
) )Why are AAP's suggestions reasonabe but not those suggested by Waldorf
) )Schools?
)
) Who said they aren't? What we ask is that they *explain* their reasons - all
) of them, the reasons specific to their doctrines too, not just the ones that
) happen to agree with the AAP (while scornfully dismissing the ones that
) don't as "materialistic science"; note that they certainly aren't quoting
) the AAP when it comes to vaccination).
)
) )Parents' evenings are now the norm.
)
) Get real. Parents' evenings have always been the norm. It's a question of
) what's presented and what's not presented, at those evenings.
)
) Diana
)
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) threads are always welcome.
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
--
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:08:38 -0600
From: "Rudy Stein" (realwaldorf hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: I look at Waldorf/Anthroposophy as one small part of New Age
Yarngal wrote:
...and I do want to know what to
expect from those who are part of it who I must deal with in my daily
life, especially through the local medical system. I recently heard of
the term "Anthroposophic Medicine" (WHAT is it?) and I sure hope no
local doctors and other health care professionals would push it on me
against my will. I purposely avoid seeing the obviously new age health
care professionals, but what if I were in an emergency situation, where
I have no choice on who cares for me?
Dear Yarngal:
What you state here is another reason for "getting the word out there"
pertaining to the esoteric occult-like qualities of many anthroposophic
institutions. While I would not worry too much about being forced to take
treatment from an anthroposophical doctor (they practice "homeopathy" as
well as other non-traditional medical treatments as prescribed by Steiner in
some of his lectures, and most mainstream practitioners view them as
"quacks"), the very fact that the Waldorf movement is continuing to make
inroads in our society (and our tax money in some instances) simply further
illustrates the need to get opposing (dare I say objective??) viewpoints of
anthroposophy out there. These people have money (many "trust-fund" boomer
babies here), are astute (in knowing how to play political/social games) and
can be very warm and sociable when it suits them. Sometimes it pays to beat
folks like this at their own game. Tell friends of yours about your
experiences, especially those seeking education for their children. (Be
objective and not emotional.) Support PLANS and other groups trying to get
an objective or critical point of view out to the mainstream. Write your
representatives, local healthcare and public school officials about the
concerns you have. One voice speaking out is a voice heard; one letter
written is a letter read.
Rudy
P.S. I feel for you re: your childhood experience and your Waldorf
experiences. Kudos to your efforts in helping yourself!
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:26:11 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
Serena, you wrote,
)Go back to where I suggested substituting the words "Blacks" or "Jews" in
)the diatribes of the last days. You could also try "Muslims." This more than
)makes my point of the clear prejudice and hate that infuses many (not all)
)Waldorf Critcs' messages.
I agree that substitution like that is a good way to test for racism.
If there's a joke about Eskimos, and you wouldn't want to repeat it
if you substituted "Negroes," then you've detected racism. But I'm
not clear that pointing out something -bad- that a religious group is
doing falls in the same class at all. Perhaps you could quote one or
two of the "prejudice and hate" statements you're referring to.
)Closed system? _All_ texts are now published: there is no special knowledge
)given only to inside members.
For Christmas I want a copy of the First Class readings in English.
Could you find one for me?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:48:30 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy off-list
Linda Clemens, you wrote,
)As prospective parents new to Waldorf, we were told that the school was
)"nonsectarian, nondenominational" which is true.
Nonsense. Waldorf is the school of Anthroposophy, an occultist sect.
That statement is a deception. But you and I were both so impressed
by the beauty that we were willing to look the other way.
)This is not to say it
)is "non-religious", which is what many in our post "Engel v Vitale"
)culture think the terms "nonsectarian/nondenominational" mean today. In
)a culture which believes "a moment of silence" in school is coercive and
)an "establishment of religion", Waldorf may be perceived as
)"deceptive".
It's much, much deeper than that, Linda, and you know it. The kids
chant prayers written by Steiner!
)Students here are told stories of early Christian Saints in 2nd grade,
Actually, the way I understand it, the "spiral curriculum" goes like
this: fairy tales in the first grade, Saints in the second as the
first turn from "ancient wisdom" to Christianity.
)of Hebrew peoples in 3rd grade, Norse mythology in 4th,
The second cycle, the ancient texts of the Semites and the Aryans
(Steiner believed).
)religious
)stories and myths from ancient India, Persia, Greece and Egypt in the
)5th, and of early Rome, Christianity, and Islam in the 6th.
That sequence is the "evolution of consciousness," taking the
children through the evolutionary stages of the sub-races of the
Aryan root race (according to Theosophy and Steiner).
)These
)aren't told as religious facts or dogma.
Every presentation I have seen has been immersive rather than
objective. Told as fact. Show me lesson books that back up your
assertion.
)In these grades, these
)subjects are all given equal value, and told as if they're grand
)chapters of our Human Story.
The Theosophical/Anthroposophical myth of the evolution of consciousness.
)Students here are also brought (through attitude and sense experience
)rather than words) to what I think of as a kind of Emersonian sense of
)beauty, awe, and reverence of spirit to the world. This is viewed as
)very important in Waldorf, and Rudolf Steiner described this feeling as
)a "religious" capacity.
I agree with that sentiment, and you know what? I get that feeling
from good science lectures, like Sagan's "Cosmos."
)Waldorf leads students through very basic blessings before meals which
)are in a doctrinal sense very "non-specific", and aren't identifiably
)sectarian or denominational.
They don't thank the farmer who grew the food, the truckers who
brought it, the grocer, the teacher. They thank the Earth and the
Sun. That's religion, a specific nature religion, Anthroposophy.
)I learned all this before my children enrolled.
But you didn't understand it.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:47:11 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy off-list
Jill, you wrote,
)I am currently reading two articles that were suggested to me in my
)quest for information. I appreciate all of the feedback and it has
)been very interesting. If I may, in each of your own experiences,
)why don't Waldorf schools disclose the religious aspect? Wouldn't
)not disclosing that information encourage the cult theory?
Originally, Steiner's group had to hide the relationship of
Anthroposophy to the Waldorf school because the government wouldn't
approve it if they thought it was an irregular religious school. Also
their "community" was too small to support a school, they had to
appeal to families outside of Anthroposophy. Keeping their
spirituality in the background to avoid social censure was habitual
for occultists anyway, so it seemed normal to them.
Governments are more liberal now, but they still need the patronage
of the non-devotees, and occultism still likes to hide in the
basement. So Steiner is "scientist, educator, philosopher."
It was actually my son's teacher who first planted the cult idea.
When I was arguing about Anthroposophy in the curriculum, she said
"you probably think we're a cult." It made more sense when I thought
about it that way.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:17:16 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
Jill, you asked,
)Another simple question, if I may...what is the difference between
)The Christian Community and Christianity?
Christian Community is an offshoot of Anthroposophy that Steiner
helped found. He was jealous of it and made them promise not to
proselytize among Anthroposophists!
Steiner viewed it as a transitional group, for people who weren't
ready for pure Anthroposophy.
In practice the CC has become the ritual arm of Anthropsophy,
providing sacraments for Anthroposophists.
) By the way, I was raised Roman Catholic but consider myself
)Christian. I do not believe that religion is God, rather, a vehicle
)to bring us closer to Him. (I hesitate to even bring God into this
)forum because I sense I will get a backlash) I believe in Jesus
)Christ as Lord and Savior and the only way to get to heaven. (Is
)anybody on this board with me?) I'm not trying to recruit anyone,
)just laying out who I am for anyone who cares.
I was raised Catholic too, but now I'm a secular humanist. It's
interesting to note that evangelical Christians were the first, years
before PLANS, to recognize the religious nature of Waldorf education
and publish warnings about it. See:
http://www.scp-inc.org/ (click publications, then profiles to
purchase a scholarly 4-page paper about Anthroposophy from a
Christian perspective for $1.50)
http://www.watchman.org/ca/ (enter waldorf in search box)
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:52:49 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
Serena, you wrote,
)They
)have to be stopped before they take over the world by stealth (a theory
)I saw somewhere back in the WC archives).
I don't think there's any danger of that, but I hope you do
understand that they would like to! Anthroposophy was originally, and
continues to be, a political movement in addition to its other fields
of activity. And in their political activism they play down the
relationship to Anthroposophy in the same way they do in the schools.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1555
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------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:18:14 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Weleda did not use Nazi prisoners for labor
Interesting. I will look into this further, because I frankly do not always trust what Sune says. (He says many things about myself and other PLANS people that are untrue.)
I would encourage you not to take Sune's word as the final arbiter on anything, just as you would not take my word or anyone else's.
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Serena Blaue (SerenaBlaue aol.com)
Sent: Nov 30, 2004 9:13 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Weleda did not use Nazi prisoners for labor
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Lisa writes:
I do believe that there has been discussion on this list in the past about
the Nazi Party's sympathy with the Anthro movement back in those days, and how
an Anthro company (Weleda) used some prisoners of the Nazis for labor, and as
the subjects of freezing-water experiments with their products. (A European
group, Aktion Kinder De Holocaust, has apparently asked Weleda for an apology for
what happened during WWII. As far as a I know, no apology has been
forthcoming yet.)
Serena:
Weleda did not use prisoners of the Nazis for labor: this is a WC myth.
Sune Nordwall addresses this, but I thought that I should check out
the AKDH website to be sure and googled Nazi + Weleda. See below.
Dr. Rascher had the cream sent to his private address in Munich, not
the concentration camp.
Weleda did not know how the cream would be used; it had already
provided cream to soldiers in the field. AKDH considered the episode
closed after Weleda agreed that its dealings (as recorded in its firm's
papers) would be open to historical research and that they regretted and
apologized for the fact that they provided cream (even if they didn't know
how it would be used) for degrading experiments on human beings.
Weleda apologized and distanced itself from Rascher's profoundly
horrible human experimentation.
No doubt this whole story is already in the WC archives, but I don't mind
having a look-around myself and can read German.
Sune Nordwall links to a site that reveals that Weleda was not
approving when it's head gardener (mentioned below) went to
Dachau on his own initiative. See the heading The Garden at Dachau
at: http://www.passagen.se/jul2004/index_pop.shtml
Best,
Serena Blaue
http://www.akdh.ch/ps/ps_05.html
Crème für KZ: Weleda bedauert
Sonntags Zeitung vom 12. April 1998, Nr. 15
ARLESHEIM - Die Basler Aktion Kinder des Holocaust wirft der Firma Weleda
vor, sie stehle sich mit Nichtwissen aus der Verantwortung. Die deutsche
Tochterfirma hatte einem berüchtigten KZ-Arzt in Dachau Frostschutzcrème geliefert.
Wenn Samuel Althof, Sprecher der 1992 gegründeten Aktion Kinder des
Holocaust, Antisemitismus oder Rassismus entdeckt, kennt er kein Pardon. Dies musste
auch die Geschäftsleitung der Heilmittel - und Naturkosmetikfirma Weleda in
Arlesheim erfahren, die dem anthroposophischen Gedankengut von Rudolf Steiner
verpflichtet ist. Es geht um eine Lieferung von 20 Kilo Frostschutzcrème der
Weleda -- Tochter in Schwäbisch-Gmünd an den KZ-Arzt und SS - Hauptsturmführer
Sigmund Rascher im Kriegsjahr 1943, der in Dachau Unterkühlungsversuche an
Häftlingen vornahm.
Rascher, ein Protégé von SS - Chef Heinrich Himmler, forschte nach Lösungen
für die Probleme von ins Meer abgestürzten, unterkühlten Piloten. Für die
grausamen Kälteexperimente benutzte der skrupellose Arzt Häftlinge aus dem KZ
Dachau, die in voller Fliegeruniform ins Wasser gelegt wurden. «Sobald die
Unterkühlung 28 Grad erreicht hatte, starb die Versuchsperson mit Sicherheit, trotz
aller Versuche zur Rettung», schrieb er in einem Zwischenbericht. Tatsache ist
auch, dass der langjährige Betreuer der Weleda -Heilkräuteranlagen in
Schwäbisch-Gmünd von 1941 bis 1945 Obergärtner im KZ Dachau war.
Dass die Weleda den Stabsarzt Rascher beliefert hatte und im Gegenzug aus
Beständen des SS - Sanitsätshauptamts die zur Herstellung der Frostschutzcréme
benötigte Vaseline als Rohstoff erhielt, führte bereits in den achtziger Jahren
in Deutschland zu Vorwürfen an das Unternehmen.
Jetzt wehrt sich Moritz Aebersold, Weleda- Gruppenleitungsmitglied am
Stammsitz in Arlesheim. Die Frostschutzcréme sei in den Kriegszeiten von
verschiedenen Stellen der Wehrmacht für deutsche Soldaten bestellt worden, «um diese an
der Front vor starkem Kälteeinfluss zu schützen». Rascher habe die Créme in
seiner Funktion als Wehrmachtsoffizier bestellt und an seine Münchner
Privatadresse liefern lassen, ohne zu sagen, wofür er sie brauche. «Über die
menschenverachtende Verwendung war die Geschäftsleitung nicht informiert», versichert
Aebersold. Weleda verurteile und bedaure die Menschenversuche zutiefst.
Die Stellungnahme der Firmenleitung genügt Althof nicht: «Das Unternehmen
soll sich ihrem Nichtwissen stellen und einen konkreten Tatbeweis ihres Bedauerns
liefern.» Aebersold sieht jedoch kein Bedürfnis nach Wiedergutmachung. Doch
werde jetzt ein Historiker gestützt auf die Weleda -Archive - eine umfassende
Darstellung der Vorgänge abliefern. Iso Ambühl
Anmerkung AKdH: Die Aktion Kinder des Holocaust hat nie eine finanzielle
Wiedergutmachung von Weleda gefordert! Die folgenden 2 Forderungen wurden in einem
Schreiben der Aktion Kinder des Holocaust an WELEDA gestellt:
1. WELEDA soll die eigene Firmengeschichte in der Zeit des Zweiten
Weltkrieges von unabhängigen Historikern erforschen lassen und die Ergebnisse der
Öffentlichkeit zugänglich machen.
2. Die Aktion Kinder des Holocaust fordert WELEDA auf die Lieferung von
WELEDA an die Deutsche Wehrmacht sowie an den KZ-Arzt Rascher gesamthaft und
eindeutig zu verurteilen und dazu unmissverständlich Stellung zu beziehen.
Nachdem WELEDA sich bei der AKdH schriftlich für die oben beschriebenen
Vorgänge entschuldigte und distanzierte und der Universität Basel (Historisches
Seminar) die Möglichkeit einer wissenschaftlichen Untersuchung (öffnung der
Archive) zugesichert hat, betrachtet die AKdH diese Angelegenheit als erledigt.
(c) Aktion Kinder des Holocaust
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==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:50:05 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
Jill wrote:
)Are the "critics" on the board, those who have had direct Waldorf
)experiences with their own children, asserting that if they were only told
)of the anthro connection, the experiences would not have been so negative?
)Come on!
Jill, almost everyone is "told of the anthro connection." Of course we were
told. But there is explaining, and then there is explaining. They try to
make it sound like "Steiner's philosophy called anthroposophy" is a separate
thing, somehow, yeah he made up this philosophy, but it's not in the
schools. Founding Waldorf schools was this other thing this guy Steiner did,
he was sort of a Renaissance man. Oh you could read about anthroposophy but
why would you? It's "difficult" and you don't need to get into all that for
your child to be happy in our sweet little school. Here is what you need to
know - we were told - natural toys - lots of time outdoors - healthy snacks
- no TV - creative play - no worksheets for toddlers - there's a handwork
group on Tuesday mornings, would you like to knit and sew some toys with
some of the other moms? Getting the picture Jill?
If we were told what the "anthro connection" *really* meant - had it really
spelled out the role of anthroposophy in this school, rather than downplayed
- had questions about it been answered straightforwardly rather than
evasively - we probably wouldn't have ever had *any* experiences with the
school . . . because we wouldn't have joined.
)It sounds like you weren't told and when you discovered it, you didn't like
)it. It's not just a matter of disclosure. If your children were in a
)school and you weren't told what was going on but you were happy with the
)result, would you all still be so upset?
Probably not. But what is your point?
We should *not* see the connection between the deceptiveness, and the myriad
of other dysfunctional things going on in these schools? Sorry, I think it's
related. Secrecy is a bad business, a bad basis for building community, a
bad basis for an educational system. It's the root of most of the problems
IMO.
)Some of the stuff I've read...and believe me I've saved it all and will
)research it further and continue to study it...reminds me of the parallels
)between Catholicism and Dan Brown's fictional work, The Da Vinci Code. If
)I believed everything I read in there, I'd be hard pressed to have remained
)faithful. Before I get a barrage of responses, I know, I know, The Da
)Vinci Code is fiction. I'm simply making a comparison to the secret
)societies. Is Anthroposophy a secret society? I'm hardly competent to
)answer or even make a judgment. But if it is not, this board makes it out
)to be.
Anthroposophy comes squarely out of a tradition of secret societies. They
are dealing with the legacy. I'm sorry, Jill, I know you want it to be
simple, for us to sit in opposite bleachers or wear different colors so you
can tell who is who and vote yes or no on "Is it a cult" but it is not that
simple. "Is Anthroposophy a secret society?" well hardly. Do
anthroposophists sometimes act like that? Yes. Part of that is just human
nature IMO but it is also related to occult traditions of secrecy. It's
complicated. I can certainly tell you no one in the schools my child has
been in since has acted so bizarre, and I definitely think it's because they
are not operating out of a belief that they are on an exalted spiritual
quest that separates them from the average, spiritually clueless parent.
)If it is, well then perhaps parents need to research the choices they make
)for their children before signing on the dotted line.
Well . . . to repeat tediously . . . this is much easier now than it was
when we signed up. We "researched." We read the literature they gave us. We
had no computer at home, and neither the library nor the local Barnes and
Noble had any Steiner books. I guess I could have called Waldorf schools in
other places and asked to interview parents or something. But it frankly
never occurred to me to imagine there was any controversy around a lovely
little nursery school in a church basement - good grief. I do remember
contacting a place called ALLPIE or something like that - can't remember now
what it stood for, but it was a group disseminating information on various
forms of alternative education. I probably heard of them through Mothering
magazine. They had only good things to say about Waldorf education. (As does
Mothering magazine, which at the time I read like it was the Bible.)
)I find myself wondering how anyone could sign their children up for
)something that they didn't know anything about! I mean, especially your
)children. It's beyond me.
Hold on there. What would you have done in my place? We visited, we
interviewed, we read the literature, I joined the study group and started
volunteering my butt off. Maybe I was naïve but it would have *never*
crossed my mind to be suspicious of a school in this way. There was no
Internet in our household. It's much different now.
Perhaps if you understand that many people attracted to Waldorf are
suspicious in the other direction. We remember the years of hell in public
schools and it's *them* we were suspicious of. I considered myself out of
the mainstream in many ways and wouldn't want my child in the mainstream
suffering the way I did in school, in ugly classrooms with mean teachers who
blew whistles and yelled at you for taking too long in the bathroom and mean
kids tormented each other. My baby was not going to have a school experience
like that. To have found an "alternative" and have it be down the street and
not even as expensive as the other private schools was joy.
)Another poster wrote that most Waldorf schools cater to the affluent.
Who said that? I have not read all the posts the past couple of days but I
wonder if you misunderstood a reference to "elitists"? I believe that person
was referring to spiritual "elitism."
I don't think Waldorf schools cater to the affluent any more than any other
private school.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:55:23 EST
From: SerenaBlaue aol.com
Subject: Re: Weleda did not use Nazi prisoners for labor
Interesting. I will look into this further, because I frankly do not always
trust what Sune says. (He says many things about myself and other PLANS people
that are untrue.)
I would encourage you not to take Sune's word as the final arbiter on
anything, just as you would not take my word or anyone else's.
Lisa
Lisa,
I am not taking Nordwall's word as the final arbiter on the Weleda
situation; I wanted to know for myself what AKDH had to say about
the whole affair, so I found their website about it. I read German
so it wasn't a problem.
I posted AKDH's press release of April 12, 1998 that reported on this
incident. Everything I wrote is based on what AKDH itself said -- not
on what Sune Nordwall wrote. However, if you compare what AKDH
says and how Nordwall reports it, he is accurate.
Best,
Serena Blaue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:02:32 +0000
From: L G Clemens (aesopo_aeternus yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
momof2gals mindspring.com wrote:
)
)
) I wrote a newsletter up about the evening, covering thoroughly the
) questions and answers that had been raised. I gave, as always, a copy to
) the teacher to look at before I sent it out. She held onto it, and each
) time I asked her to approve it as what transpired at the meeting, she
) hesitated. I finally distributed it without her say so, because it was
) an accurate account of the evening.
Have you posted it here, Lisa? I'd be interested to see it.
Linda
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:05:18 EST
From: SerenaBlaue aol.com
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
For Christmas I want a copy of the First Class readings in English.
Could you find one for me?
-Dan Dugan
This will have to be your own research project, Dan.
Best,
Serena Blaue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:33:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
Serena, I don't understand. You said, a day or so ago, that all of the teachings of Anthroposophy were published and available to anyone who wants them. Now you seem to be backtracking.
Are the First Class readings available to the public, or are they not?
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Serena Blaue (SerenaBlaue aol.com)
Sent: Dec 1, 2004 9:05 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
==========================================================
Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Get the latest weather,
sports, and lifestyle news you can't afford to miss, all
at a price you can afford to pay! Click now!
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==========================================================
For Christmas I want a copy of the First Class readings in English.
Could you find one for me?
-Dan Dugan
This will have to be your own research project, Dan.
Best,
Serena Blaue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:41:52 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
Linda,
Gosh, that was five years ago; I frankly am not sure if I can dig it up or not. I certainly will try. (I recall that I named my little newsletter, which came out every other month, "The Dandelion Digest," as the kindergarten room was called "The Dandelion Room." I usually took it to Kinko's to have it printed on pretty Steiner-approved peachblossom colored paper, which the teacher seemed to really love.)
I do recall being extremely judicious and careful about how I worded that last newsletter -- the one in which I presented the discussion that had taken place at the Parent Evening. I basically transcribed the tape I had made, and put the question, and then, the teachers' answers. I distinctly remember adding, at the end, something like "If you find you have more questions about this discussion or any other topic, please talk to your class teacher." My goal in doing the newsletter -- and in asking the questions I asked -- was not to embarrass the school and the teachers. (After all, my kids were still in their care.) It was to bring these issues to light and to make sure that all of us parents who had kids at the school were clear on what was going on vis a vis our children being educated in the "light" of Anthroposophy. I felt strongly, and still do, that parents deserve to know that Waldorf education is Anthroposophical, and what that means. I remember how shaken up many of the parents who were in the classroom that night acted and felt afterward; some were crying, and many gathered in the school parking lot to talk for more than an hour after the session. One woman kept saying "Why didn't anyone tell us this when we enrolled?" It was not so much that these parents were upset about what they learned (the actual facts); it was that they were upset that no one had told them. They had put trust in the school (putting one's children in a school is an act of great trust, and with that trust comes great responsibility!) and they felt the school had betrayed that trust by keeping information from them.
Waldorf schools could avoid this kind of thing by being completely open from the start. Does anyone disagree with that?
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: L G Clemens (aesopo_aeternus yahoo.com)
Sent: Dec 1, 2004 9:02 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
==========================================================
Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Get the latest weather,
sports, and lifestyle news you can't afford to miss, all
at a price you can afford to pay! Click now!
http://click.topica.com/caaa9eYb1dkiGb1IpcOa/TopOffers
==========================================================
momof2gals mindspring.com wrote:
)
)
) I wrote a newsletter up about the evening, covering thoroughly the
) questions and answers that had been raised. I gave, as always, a copy to
) the teacher to look at before I sent it out. She held onto it, and each
) time I asked her to approve it as what transpired at the meeting, she
) hesitated. I finally distributed it without her say so, because it was
) an accurate account of the evening.
Have you posted it here, Lisa? I'd be interested to see it.
Linda
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:21:40 +0000
From: L G Clemens (aesopo_aeternus yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: YES to early reading!
mom22gr8kidz comcast.net wrote:
)
) She can already
) do this at three, i.e., look at a page and tell me what it says, but
) this
) is almost certainly based on pictures rather than the letters
)
) Isn't this how all kids learn to read? My children and every child I've
) ever known starts to retell stories that have been read to
) them...they've probably memorized the context but it is nonetheless the
) beginning stages of reading.
)
Yes, it is.
A lot of really good research has been done in the last few years about
the skills readers need and the necessary elements in reading
instruction that would best help them build those skills. To better
understand and discuss these different elements, experts have tried to
systematize the terminology used, and is a big help to understanding the
different skills necessary in what is actually the pretty complicated
process of becoming a good reader.
Unfortunately here, often we're drawn into arguments about whether or
not this or that is "really" reading in a definitional sense, which
ignores the larger picture.
In development of good reading, children who hear stories told, who see
reading modeled by adults, who are cognizant that written "scratches"
record stories, and appreciate the ability to read back the story
recorded by these "scratches", are children who are taking the first
critical steps to becoming good readers. These steps are tremendously
important.
Further along the process, it is critical that children become skilled
in decoding those scratches, which is the phonics. Strictly speaking,
the ability to decode the scratches isn't "really" reading, though it is
frequently argued. Neither is recognizing certain words by
memorization, which is also a critical element to becoming a good
reader. They're part of "really" reading, but only a part. In learning
to read, if you don't have all the other parts as well, it is much more
challenging to becoming a good reader.
A lot of the argumentative "bickering" over reading is silly, really,
because it's essentially petty squabbles over which point along the
spectrum in the process of becoming a good reader can one claim a child
is really "learning to read".
Rather than arguing definition, I think the focus should be on whether
or not any of these elements are being neglected or misapplied, and
whether or not children are on the right track for developing all the
necessary skills to ultimately becoming good readers.
Linda
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:28:11 -0500
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax (abd lomaxdesign.com)
Subject: RE: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
At 03:40 PM 11/30/2004, Diana Winters wrote:
)Serena wrote:
)
) )the lawsuit is an unmistakeable action that seeks to, among other things,
) )create a legal opinion that declares Anthroposophy a religion.
)
)It seeks to acknowledge the obvious then. Pick any volume of Steiner off the
)shelf at random and read 4 or 5 paragraphs. It's a religious doctrine.
Perhaps Diana should read the appeals court decision denying PLANS plea for
summary judgement, and at least acknowledge that her opinion is different.
Her definition of "religion" is different from the legal one.
First of all, what she has written is not literally true. Take "Basic
Issues of the Social Question" of the shelf, and you'll have a bit of
difficulty establishing that it is "religious doctrine."
But you'll have little difficulty, by reading with a modicum of care,
finding hints that there is some occultism, or at least some rather fuzzy
philosophy, involved. Occultism is not religion, not legally, even though
it, like philosophy -- and science, for that matter -- may have religious
implications.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:46:56 EST
From: SerenaBlaue aol.com
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
Serena, I don't understand. You said, a day or so ago, that all of the
teachings of Anthroposophy were published and available to anyone who wants them.
Now you seem to be backtracking.
Are the First Class readings available to the public, or are they not?
Lisa
Dan has a link on the PLANS homepage -- he doesn't
need any assistance from me to find things.
Best,
Serena Blaue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:58:42 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
It feels as if you are backtracking. You said that the teachings were open and available; that they were not "closed," which is one of the hallmarks of a cult.
Now, ever since Dan asked if you could please help him get the First Class readings in English, you are backing off.
It's clear, Serena, that the First Class readings are NOT available to just anyone who might want to read them or to learn about that level of Anthroposophy.
So there apparently *are* secret documents/knowledge that are available only to a certain group of insiders.
Why don't you just admit it?
Instead, you are doing the typical Waldorf thing, which is to suddenly become mum about or deflect an issue with another question or statement when it is brought up.
I encountered this ad nauseum at our former Waldorf school, when things my daughter began to bring home in her backpack as assignments (such as the "draw an arm without using any lines" homework) that raised my curiosity and, frankly, concern. The more questions I asked, the more the teacher refused to look me in the eye and give me a straight answer, and the more she clouded the issue with short, terse statements that seemed to have little do with what I was asking.
This feels really familiar.
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Serena Blaue (SerenaBlaue aol.com)
Sent: Dec 1, 2004 11:46 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education & Anthroposophy
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