return to WCA Archive
Index
-- Topica Digest --
RE: General remarks
By jaquesdm msn.com
puff piece in Washington Times
By dan dandugan.com
Deby Re: General remarks
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
Re: puff piece in Washington Times
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
Re: Kimberton Waldorf School graduates
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: puff piece in Washington Times
By dan dandugan.com
Re: puff piece in Washington Times
By Gary goodwinter.com
happy birthday, PLANS
By dan dandugan.com
Re: General remarks
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:19:31 +0000
From: (jaquesdm msn.com)
Subject: RE: General remarks
=?iso-8859-1?q?Dirk=20Klose?= wrote:
)
) Your gross generalizations do not fit with reality.
) How many children have you interviewed etc. The same
) questions I can ask you.
) It is my own experience what I wrote. And I am
) grateful that I could make those experiences. I don't
) believe you guys here really want to perceive anything
) but the negative.
This really wont do Dirk. Most of us speak from our own experiences too.
"Stressing the negative" is a well recognised anthro cliche, generally
used where anthroposophists know that this or that aspect is somewhat
distasteful, so lets not discuss it.
) So I don't really feel like sharing
) any of my personal views. I doubt that you want to
) know them.
Well, apart from being somewhat petulant, one must ask just where you
are coming from Dirk. How might one differentiate between your
*personal* views or thats of Steiner?
Many of us attempted to work within the bounds of a *personal* view,
only to find ourselves marginalised, sometimes demonised.
Dirk, I suggest that a *personal* view is incompatible with Steinerism.
) Rather do I spend my time with the
) practical work than theorizing.
) Why don't you all make the step beyond critcizing and
) offer a healthy alternative to Waldorf.
That again is something we tried to do.
)Education is
) really a tough job. Maybe you already you and in this
) case I wish you good luck.Yet I doubt it and in this
) case I am prejudiced.
) Anything that will improve the education of the
) children is good work.
Agreeed. Can you suggest then why anything not precisely within the
sphere of Steiner influence is treated with such contempt?
) I already imagine what you all think now. Go ahead and
) post it. It seems to me that you don't get anywhere
) here.
)
Dirk, I wonder just what you mean by this? Did you think that (I for
instance) coming from a seven year association with Anthroposophy would
be persuaded to see the error of my ways? No, this group offers a
platform to ask the questions which Anthroposophy would prefer to leave
un-asked.
) Peace
)
and you.
Davy
)
)
)
)
)
)
) __________________________________________________________________
)
) Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
) Logos und Klingelt–ne f¸rs Handy bei http://sms.yahoo.de
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:10:19 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: puff piece in Washington Times
There's a Waldorf puff piece in the Washington Times:
http://washingtontimes.com/entertainment/20030601-090111-8886r.htm
I don't suppose there'd be much point in writing to the editor--the
Washington Times itself is owned by a religious cult.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:58:10 -0700
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
Subject: Deby Re: General remarks
Wow, Deby, what a neat-looing school! Good for you.
:-)
Sarina
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:01:15 -0700
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
) I don't suppose there'd be much point in
) writing to the editor--the Washington Times
) itself is owned by a religious cult.
It is???
S.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:27:29 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Kimberton Waldorf School graduates
Did anyone notice that in several cases, students have two colleges listed
after their names? (Example: John Doe will attend either College X or
College Y.) I don't get this. Are we to presume that the students with two
colleges listed were accepted at both and are just now deciding where to go?
Lisa
) From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 16:52:18 -0700
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Kimberton Waldorf School graduates
)
) Kimberton Waldorf School has a list of their 2003 high school
) graduating class's destinations on their web page,
)
) http://www.kimberton.org.
)
) What I find interesting is that four out of the twenty-three
) graduates will be going on to Anthroposophical institutions. That's a
) 17% recruitment rate. I wonder what percentage of a Catholic high
) school's graduates go on to a seminary.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:43:12 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
) ) I don't suppose there'd be much point in
)) writing to the editor--the Washington Times
)) itself is owned by a religious cult.
)
)It is???
Rev. Moon's.
-Dan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:43:26 -0400
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
on 6/30/03 4:01 PM, Sarina McDonald at sarinamcdonald msn.com wrote:
)) I don't suppose there'd be much point in
)) writing to the editor--the Washington Times
)) itself is owned by a religious cult.
)
) It is???
)
) S.
Note that this is the Washington TIMES, not the esteemed Washington POST.
The WT is owned by the Moonies.
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:46:50 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: happy birthday, PLANS
People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools (PLANS), Inc., will be five
years old tomorrow, July 1.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:44:25 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: General remarks
To Dirk, et al:
I was going through some files this evening and came across this article by
fellow list member, Peter Staudenmaier. I remember feeling uncomfortable
reading his articles a couple of years ago. At that time I was trying to
convince myself that there was no racist element in Anthroposophy and that
Threefolding really *was* a potential source for the betterment of
humankind. I really was trying to *not take things out of context* as the
need to believe in *something* was so very strong. And, of course, there
was the sense of community in Waldorf. All that striving for community.
Who would not want a better tomorrow for our children? A "sense" of
community....
So, the Peters and Dans and Debras of the world took a big sharp pin to my
bubble. It was not easy to pop. The bubble took years to make. It
contained lofty ideals, family, as well as what I believed were the seeds
to a better world. It was impervious to all but the mightiest of tools.
Try as they might, those Waldorf Critics were not quite able to burst the
dream. They scratched the surface, though, and I could see the writing on
the wall. I didn't recognize the writing at first. Eventually, however, I
knew whose handwriting I was reading. I had a few books and I read them -
really read them from the real *I.* I began to read most nights for weeks
and months via the Internet. Finally, the bubble popped with a big loud
BANG! Woke me up. Who popped the bubble at Walden Pond? Rudolf Steiner.
http://www.elib.com/Steiner/index.php
I digress. I suggest reading Peter's work - even it is uncomfortable to do
so. It's almost like engaging in *inner work* from the outside. While not
always easy it has afforded me my Freedom. And that makes all the
difference.
-Walden
An excerpt from: The Art of Avoiding History
by Peter Staudenmaier
Reply to G–ran Fant, "The Art of Making White into Black"
http://www.waldorfcritics.com/active/articles/Art_of_Avoiding_History.html
Anthroposophy can, after all, be viewed as an attempt to bridge occultism
and rationalism, the esoteric and the practical, mysticism and humanism. But
this attempt failed in interwar Germany because it ignored its own political
context, and was consequently drawn into the orbit of mass barbarism.
Anthroposophy's failure, from this perspective, is an object lesson in the
perils of spiritualized politics. Its latter-day practitioners would do well
to heed this lesson.
For now, however, the lesson remains unlearned. G–ran Fant is so taken with
"the great, inspiring wholeness" of Steiner's teachings that he has allowed
his critical faculties to be incapacitated. His unwillingness to come to
terms with anthroposophy's racist, nationalist, and pro-fascist legacy is
typical of far too many contemporary anthroposophists. Indeed this defensive
and evasive attitude seems to be most common among relatively liberal
anthroposophists. There are many readily available sources that describe and
analyze anthroposophy's reactionary heritage; progressive anthroposophists
have no excuse for continuing to ignore them. Fant's reply exemplifies not
so much the denial of history as the avoidance of history, the refusal to
engage with a compromised past in a dignified and honest way. Until
anthroposophists overcome this self-exculpatory abdication of moral
responsibility, their claims to represent an enlightened and tolerant
doctrine will remain insincere.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1078
-- Topica Digest --
=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_K=FChlewind_on_=22Star_Children=22?=
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FChlewind?= on "Star Children"
By snell gv.net
Re: puff piece in Washington Times
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: puff piece in Washington Times
By momof2gals mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:30:30 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_K=FChlewind_on_=22Star_Children=22?=
This kind of mystification (slathering soul-talk all over the subject of
children with special needs; never getting around to the actual skills
they may need help with) does such a disservice to the children it is
supposedly helping, it makes me angry. You're right, Dan, that the main
point is self-serving - it just happens that what these children
supposedly need is exactly what Waldorf offers everyone else anyway.
Doesn't Waldorf say *all* children "live in a picture-like or feeling
'thinking' instead of a linear, conceptual thinking" (or ought to if
their parents weren't screwing them up)? The "special" cases in Waldorf,
the children who need an "extra lesson," always just get more of the
same. The rhetoric places anyone who would do differently for the child
in the wrong. If you would actually try to teach a "star child"
something, you're an insensitive brute destroying their "spiritual soul
structure."
"The Research Bulletin of the Research Institute for Waldorf Education
(sounds scientific, doesn't it!) Vol. VIII No. 2 (June 2003) has an
article by Georg K¸lewind "In What Respect are Star Children
Different?"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:06:57 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: RE: =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FChlewind?= on "Star Children"
)This kind of mystification (slathering soul-talk all over the subject of
)children with special needs; never getting around to the actual skills
)they may need help with) does such a disservice to the children it is
)supposedly helping, it makes me angry. You're right, Dan, that the main
)point is self-serving - it just happens that what these children
)supposedly need is exactly what Waldorf offers everyone else anyway.
)Doesn't Waldorf say *all* children "live in a picture-like or feeling
)'thinking' instead of a linear, conceptual thinking" (or ought to if
)their parents weren't screwing them up)?
Debra:
Steiner lectured to "teachers and doctors" about a child who was
"restless and fidgety - a backward little boy, still very young, who
has not learned to speak and is behindhand with all the training he
should have received in the first period of life."
. . .[I]t is a relief to hear that you will not have the mother there
with you. But with a child of this kind, it will, in any case, be
imperative to hold your own - even with a certain obstinacy - in the
face of the demands and expectations of the parents. . . The parents
of such a child do not, and cannot, know what is right and necessary
for him."
Steiner prescribed "tone Eurythmy" and "rhythmical sentences, first
forwards and then backwards," followed with a sequence of vowels.
(First forwards then backwards, of course.)
Education for SpecialNeeds - The Curative Education Course, Rudolf
Steiner, Rudolf Steiner Press, 1998, pp.189 -191
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:24:20 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
Even though the Times *is* owned by the Moonies, there *is* sense in writing
to them.
I know several people who have worked for the Washington Times and none of
them ever felt that they had to censor their stories or slant them in any
particular way. It was, they said, like working for any other newspaper. (No
need to say here that the Washington Times is considered a "conservative"
newspaper by virtue of its editorials, just as the Washington Post is
considered "liberal" by virtue of its editorials.)
I actually was more surprised that the Times' reporter was taken in by
Waldorf's pretty facade than I would be if the Post did a similar story. In
my experience, reporters who are liberal politically and philosophically
tend to be more open and accepting of things that look New Agey than are the
more conservative reporters I know. The liberals would put that under the
rubric of being "open minded" and "tolerant."
This goes for all people, of course, not just reporters. Think about it. The
evangelical Christians who are largely politically right wing were among the
first people to stand up and say that Waldorf schools are religious, occult
schools.
Lisa
) From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:10:19 -0700
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: puff piece in Washington Times
)
) There's a Waldorf puff piece in the Washington Times:
)
) http://washingtontimes.com/entertainment/20030601-090111-8886r.htm
)
) I don't suppose there'd be much point in writing to the editor--the
) Washington Times itself is owned by a religious cult.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:25:15 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
It is owned by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon, the leader of the so-called
"Moonies." Rev. Moon said he started the paper as a bastion of free speech
because he wants to fight Communism. (He is from North Korea, I believe.)
Lisa
) From: Sarina McDonald (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:01:15 -0700
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
)
)) I don't suppose there'd be much point in
)) writing to the editor--the Washington Times
)) itself is owned by a religious cult.
)
) It is???
)
) S.
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1079
-- Topica Digest --
New booklet
By ulfva telia.com
Ritter
By ulfva telia.com
Admin: web counter 122,090
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 19:20:01 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: New booklet
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_006A_01C340CE.EF079CC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hello waldorfcritics!
Does anyone here know about Herbert Kopf or/and Bodo von Plato?
Theese two have written a book about "The biodynamic movement during
second world war" Thomas Luthi from the antropsosofic movement in
J”rna, Sweden is giving an account of it in the latest number of the
magazine "Kultura". In this book you can read that the antroposofic
movement was forbidden during the nazi era, but that the biodynamic
method was quite appreciated and therefore was the last to be
stopped. Once, when 200 farmers were assembled at (a farm) Marienh–he
they receaved a letter from Rudolf Hess where he expressed
appreciation for "serious-minded and hard work" and for "returning to
the natural" They also tell about a reverse document written by a
professor G Nolte that was spread free in a million ex.(poor
antroposophists!!!)
Is this a true story?
Ylva Eliasson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 22:34:36 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: Ritter
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_010C_01C340EA.1DFAB380
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Talking about Washington Times I¥d like to mention that a local paper
in (S–dert”lje near to ) J”rna which is the antroposofical centre in
Sweden had a documentary sequence - 10 I believe - about the
antroposophists. It was all very positive - they just mentioned in a
short note that there had been some criticism against the movement.
(That criticism was a half a year ongoing serial debate that I
initiated in another local paper.)
One statement they made was that a man, Gustav Ritter, escaped from
Germany to Sweden ( 193?) because Hitler wished to make him a school
manager. Why would he? Does anybody know?
When I ask the same question to antroposophists here or to the paper
I get no answer. They say he was a brilliant (medicine )pedagogue.
It is also impossible to have a "letter-to-the-editor" published in
that paper if it is critical against antroposophists.
Ylva Eliasson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 23:14:14 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: web counter 122,090
On July 1, 2003, the PLANS web site had registered 122,090 visitors
since August 12, 1996. (Visitors, not hits. Repeats on the same day
are not counted. Thanks to Web-Counter: http://www.digits.com.)
We had 2708 visitors in June, averaging 90 per day.
Hit counters give much higher but less meaningful numbers, because
they count every page and image viewed. The hits on our site in the
month of June totaled 220,144, averaging 7,338 per day.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1080
-- Topica Digest --
Re: New booklet
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Ritter
By pstaud hotmail.com
biodynamics in WWII
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: biodynamics in WWII
By ulfva telia.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:58:07 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: New booklet
Hi Ylva,
I've never heard of Herbert Kopf, but Bodo von Plato is a prominent
anthroposophist and member of the Board of Directors of the General
Anthroposophical Society in Dornach. I checked on-line, and it looks like
the book you mention is an overall history of biodynamics, published two
years ago by an anthroposophic press, rather than a book specifically about
the biodynamic movement during World War II. But perhaps you mean a new book
that I haven't come across.
What you describe is indeed true (with the possible exception of the last
line about a document by a G Nolte, which I don't know anything about); many
leading Nazis were strongly interested in and supportive of biodynamic
farming, and much of the leadership of the biodynamic movement was solidly
pro-Nazi. The biodynamic movement wasn't suppressed until mid-1941, after
their chief protector, Hess, flew to Britain; and even after that point
there were still many instances of collusion between biodynamic growers and
the Nazis, including a network of biodynamic plantations at major
concentration camps, from Dachau to Auschwitz. I am away from my books and
files for the summer so I can't give you lots of details, but I will try to
post a summary of what we know about this convergence between anthroposophy
and Nazism. A number of scholarly studies have appeared in recent years that
address this topic. If you read German, I could recommend some books and
articles.
Peter Staudenmaier
)Does anyone here know about Herbert Kopf or/and Bodo von Plato? Theese two
)have written a book about "The biodynamic movement during second world war"
) Thomas Luthi from the antropsosofic movement in J”rna, Sweden is giving
)an account of it in the latest number of the magazine "Kultura". In this
)book you can read that the antroposofic movement was forbidden during the
)nazi era, but that the biodynamic method was quite appreciated and
)therefore was the last to be stopped. Once, when 200 farmers were assembled
)at (a farm) Marienh–he they receaved a letter from Rudolf Hess where he
)expressed appreciation for "serious-minded and hard work" and for
)"returning to the natural" They also tell about a reverse document written
)by a professor G Nolte that was spread free in a million ex.(poor
)antroposophists!!!)
)
)Is this a true story?
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 13:21:29 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Ritter
Hi again Ylva,
the story of Gustav Ritter is one of Sune Nordwall's favorites, and his
version differs considerably from the one you report from the newspaper
series. Sune has a marked interest in detailing the number of
anthroposophists from Jewish families who fled the Nazis and came to Sweden
(he thinks this is a refutation of Steiner's antisemitism), and he mentions
Ritter as one of these Jewish refugee anthroposophists; you can find an
example here:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/two-mythologies.htm
According to Sune, Ritter was Austrian and fled to Sweden after the Nazis
annexed Austria; he founded the Mikaelgarden in Jaerna. If Sune is right
that Ritter was of Jewish origin, then it can hardly be the case that Hitler
wished to appoint him to any managerial position. Sune's version sounds more
plausible to me than the version from the newspaper.
One rather important fact that anthroposophists today prefer to forget is
that anthroposophists from Jewish backgrounds fled the Nazis not because
they were anthroposophists, but because they counted as Jews in the eyes of
the Nazis, and their gentile anthroposophist comrades in Germany, Austria,
and Switzerland were not always particularly supportive of them. Another
very prominent Austrian anthroposophist of Jewish origin, Ludwig Thieben,
wrote the definitive anthroposophical account of the "Jewish question": a
book called "The Mystery of Jewry", which argues, in line with Steiner, that
the very existence of Jews is an anachronism that needs to be overcome. But
you're unlikely to learn anything about that history from anthroposophist
sources.
Peter S.
)One statement they made was that a man, Gustav Ritter, escaped from Germany
)to Sweden ( 193?) because Hitler wished to make him a school manager. Why
)would he? Does anybody know?
)
)When I ask the same question to antroposophists here or to the paper I get
)no answer. They say he was a brilliant (medicine )pedagogue.
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 14:14:16 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: biodynamics in WWII
Well before the start of the second world war, a number of leading Nazis had
become intensely interested in Rudolf Steiner's approach to farming,
biodynamic agriculture. Some of these Nazi bosses were also intrigued by
additional aspects of anthroposophy (and some of them became
anthroposophists themselves), while others were primarily concerned with
promoting anthroposophical methods of cultivation, which they perceived as
more natural than standard agricultural approaches. The best-known of these
pro-anthroposophical Nazis was Rudolf Hess, Hitler's deputy, but others were
just as important in providing direct support for biodynamics by the Nazi
state: R. Walther Darre, Hitler's minister of agriculture; Alwin Seifert,
the Nazis' "Reich Advocate for the Landscape"; and Oswald Pohl, chief of the
concentration camp system, among others.
The leadership of the biodynamic movement, for its part, was
enthusiastically pro-Nazi; their journal vigorously promoted Darre's
agricultural policies, and put Hitler's picture on their title page early in
1939. The movement's leader, Erhard Bartsch, offered to collaborate with the
SS in its plans for re-settling the conquered territories in eastern Europe
with 'Aryan' farmers. Because of this ongoing sympathetic relationship
between top Nazis and biodynamic growers, the biodynamic movement was
largely spared the vicissitudes that beset other anthroposophical projects,
which were caught in a tug of war between opposing factions within the Nazi
hierarchy.
When the war began, Nazi support for biodynamic undertakings did not slacken
in the least; in fact it intensified. Bartsch's estate at Marienhoehe became
a gathering point for environmentally-minded Nazis and anthroposophists;
Darre visited there, and Hess sent his greetings. Before Darre fell from
power, he attempted to establish biodynamics -- which he renamed 'farming
according to the laws of life' -- as the officially favored and subsidized
form of agriculture in the Third Reich.
After Hess's flight to Britain in 1941, the anti-anthroposophist faction
within the Nazi leadership seized the opportunity to crack down on the
remaining anthroposophical institutions, including biodynamics. But in an
intriguing turn of events, SS head Heinrich Himmler himself took a notable
interest in biodynamics, and arranged for a large-scale conversion of
several SS enterprises to biodynamic methods. The most notorious of these
were the biodynamic plantations at major concentration camps like Dachau and
Auschwitz, where the labor was performed by camp inmates. A leading
anthroposophist, Franz Lippert, who had been head gardener at Weleda for
many years (along with Bartsch, he participated in Steiner's 1924
agriculture course, where biodynamics was born), volunteered to oversee the
plantation at Dachau, and joined the SS. Well into the war, he continued to
express a fanatical commitment to Nazism. His stint at Dachau did not
discredit Lippert in the eyes of his fellow anthroposophists; after the war,
he remained a central contributor to biodynamic journals, and
anthroposophists continue to defend his wartime activities to this day.
Much of this history is recounted in two books by British historian Anna
Bramwell: Blood and Soil (a study of Darre), and Ecology in the 20th Century
(which includes a chapter on the Nazis titled "The Steiner Connection"). I
have strong reservations about several aspects of Bramwell's work, but for
those who would like an introduction to the issue in English, these books
are the most thorough source. Two books have recently been published in
Germany that address the issue at length; one is a study of Seifert written
by Charlotte Reitsam, which emphasizes Seifert's anthroposophical
associations. The other is a book about the biodynamic farms at
concentration camps: Wolfgang Jacobeit and Christoph Kopke, Die
Biologisch-Dynamische Wirtschafstweise im KZ. Anthroposophists themselves
generally prefer to ignore the topic entirely, though there have been brief
treatments by the more historically inclined anthroposophists, such as Arfst
Wagner or Norbert Deuchert. The massive book on anthroposophists during the
Third Reich by anthroposophist Uwe Werner has very little to say on the
subject that is either useful or reliable. Whenever I get around to writing
again on anthroposophy's history, I plan to give more attention to the
biodynamics-Nazi connection.
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 22:37:15 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: Re: biodynamics in WWII
A lot to read - but I will (and have some.) Thank you so much Peter
Staudenmaier.
I¥m not sure if I misunderstand, but I can¥t find any relevance for
the anthroposophical accusations against you for forgery. All I have
read before at the "Vetenskap och Folkbildning" sight is, as far as I
can see, thourogly supported by a source list.
But I have myself, in the answers from anthros to my "letters-
to-editor" ,(is there a better word?) experienced their very special
technic of arguing. They first of all try not to answer the question,
next is to point out a very small thing to focus on to avoid what¥s
the real point. Very often they accuse their criticis for persecution
- that is what they say you are doing (when I referr to your
articles, calling you disparaging "an activist")!
Have you heard of a Pentecostalist pastor Sigvard Sv”rd? He wrote two
books some years ago examining anthroposophy from the view of a
christian. I¥ve talked to him and he also sent me some material about
what is called "the class" ( for the initiated) at first lead by
Gustav Ritter, later on by Arne Klingborg. I also had some
information about certain cases that should be quite aggravating
circumstances if authorities took notice of them. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND
WHY THEY SEEM NOT TO CARE ! Each case is regarded a private one and
no-one seem to notice the connection to anthroposophy.
Ylva Eliasson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:14 PM
Subject: biodynamics in WWII
) Well before the start of the second world war, a number of leading Nazis had
) become intensely interested in Rudolf Steiner's approach to farming,
) biodynamic agriculture. Some of these Nazi bosses were also intrigued by
) additional aspects of anthroposophy (and some of them became
) anthroposophists themselves), while others were primarily concerned with
) promoting anthroposophical methods of cultivation, which they perceived as
) more natural than standard agricultural approaches. The best-known of these
) pro-anthroposophical Nazis was Rudolf Hess, Hitler's deputy, but others were
) just as important in providing direct support for biodynamics by the Nazi
) state: R. Walther Darre, Hitler's minister of agriculture; Alwin Seifert,
) the Nazis' "Reich Advocate for the Landscape"; and Oswald Pohl, chief of the
) concentration camp system, among others.
)
) The leadership of the biodynamic movement, for its part, was
) enthusiastically pro-Nazi; their journal vigorously promoted Darre's
) agricultural policies, and put Hitler's picture on their title page early in
) 1939. The movement's leader, Erhard Bartsch, offered to collaborate with the
) SS in its plans for re-settling the conquered territories in eastern Europe
) with 'Aryan' farmers. Because of this ongoing sympathetic relationship
) between top Nazis and biodynamic growers, the biodynamic movement was
) largely spared the vicissitudes that beset other anthroposophical projects,
) which were caught in a tug of war between opposing factions within the Nazi
) hierarchy.
)
) When the war began, Nazi support for biodynamic undertakings did not slacken
) in the least; in fact it intensified. Bartsch's estate at Marienhoehe became
) a gathering point for environmentally-minded Nazis and anthroposophists;
) Darre visited there, and Hess sent his greetings. Before Darre fell from
) power, he attempted to establish biodynamics -- which he renamed 'farming
) according to the laws of life' -- as the officially favored and subsidized
) form of agriculture in the Third Reich.
)
) After Hess's flight to Britain in 1941, the anti-anthroposophist faction
) within the Nazi leadership seized the opportunity to crack down on the
) remaining anthroposophical institutions, including biodynamics. But in an
) intriguing turn of events, SS head Heinrich Himmler himself took a notable
) interest in biodynamics, and arranged for a large-scale conversion of
) several SS enterprises to biodynamic methods. The most notorious of these
) were the biodynamic plantations at major concentration camps like Dachau and
) Auschwitz, where the labor was performed by camp inmates. A leading
) anthroposophist, Franz Lippert, who had been head gardener at Weleda for
) many years (along with Bartsch, he participated in Steiner's 1924
) agriculture course, where biodynamics was born), volunteered to oversee the
) plantation at Dachau, and joined the SS. Well into the war, he continued to
) express a fanatical commitment to Nazism. His stint at Dachau did not
) discredit Lippert in the eyes of his fellow anthroposophists; after the war,
) he remained a central contributor to biodynamic journals, and
) anthroposophists continue to defend his wartime activities to this day.
)
) Much of this history is recounted in two books by British historian Anna
) Bramwell: Blood and Soil (a study of Darre), and Ecology in the 20th Century
) (which includes a chapter on the Nazis titled "The Steiner Connection"). I
) have strong reservations about several aspects of Bramwell's work, but for
) those who would like an introduction to the issue in English, these books
) are the most thorough source. Two books have recently been published in
) Germany that address the issue at length; one is a study of Seifert written
) by Charlotte Reitsam, which emphasizes Seifert's anthroposophical
) associations. The other is a book about the biodynamic farms at
) concentration camps: Wolfgang Jacobeit and Christoph Kopke, Die
) Biologisch-Dynamische Wirtschafstweise im KZ. Anthroposophists themselves
) generally prefer to ignore the topic entirely, though there have been brief
) treatments by the more historically inclined anthroposophists, such as Arfst
) Wagner or Norbert Deuchert. The massive book on anthroposophists during the
) Third Reich by anthroposophist Uwe Werner has very little to say on the
) subject that is either useful or reliable. Whenever I get around to writing
) again on anthroposophy's history, I plan to give more attention to the
) biodynamics-Nazi connection.
)
) Peter Staudenmaier
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
) http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
) )
)
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1081
-- Topica Digest --
RE: biodynamics in WWII
By Percedol netscape.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 04:01:49 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: biodynamics in WWII
Ylva Eliasson wrote:
)
) A lot to read - but I will (and have some.) Thank you so much Peter
) Staudenmaier.
)
) I¥m not sure if I misunderstand, but I can¥t find any relevance for the
) anthroposophical accusations against you for forgery.
P:
To begin from the title of the lecture Peter Steudenmeier proposes in
his article as:
"The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to
Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
To which lecture is he referring to, since there is no such lecture?
(And if there is this lecture he can post it here!)
There is, instead a lecture series called:
"Die Mission einzelner Volksselen im zusammenhange mit der
germanisch-nordischen Mythologie" ["The mission of single folk souls in
relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology"], all held in Oslo from June 7 to
June 17, 1910.
Why is Peter writing of a tour in Norway, if it was actually a lecture
series held in Oslo?
Etc.
What questions were not, in your opinion, answered to you about the
spiritual science?
And what cases do you refer to?
) But I have myself, in the answers from anthros to my "letters-
) to-editor" ,(is there a better word?) experienced their very special
) technic of arguing. They first of all try not to answer the question,
) next is to point out a very small thing to focus on to avoid what¥s the
) real point. Very often they accuse their criticis for persecution - that
) is what they say you are doing (when I referr to your articles, calling
) you disparaging "an activist")!
)
I also had some information about certain cases that should be quite
aggravating circumstances if authorities took notice of them. I DO NOT
UNDERSTAND WHY THEY SEEM NOT TO CARE !
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1082
-- Topica Digest --
RE: biodynamics in WWII
By dan dandugan.com
Re: biodynamics in WWII
By ulfva telia.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:47:13 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: biodynamics in WWII
)Ylva Eliasson wrote:
))
)) A lot to read - but I will (and have some.) Thank you so much Peter
)) Staudenmaier.
))
)) I*m not sure if I misunderstand, but I can*t find any relevance for the
) ) anthroposophical accusations against you for forgery.
Percedol commented:
)To begin from the title of the lecture Peter Steudenmeier proposes in
)his article as:
)"The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to
)Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
)
)To which lecture is he referring to, since there is no such lecture?
)(And if there is this lecture he can post it here!)
)There is, instead a lecture series called:
)"Die Mission einzelner Volksselen im zusammenhange mit der
)germanisch-nordischen Mythologie" ["The mission of single folk souls in
)relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology"], all held in Oslo from June 7 to
)June 17, 1910.
Everybody knows what lecture series is being referred to. It's silly
to object to Peter's translation of the title. I don't know German,
but it looks accurate to me. One official Anthroposophical
translation of it is:
"The Mission of the Individual Folk Souls in realtion to Teutonic
Mythology: Eleven lectures given in Christiania (Oslo) from 7th to
17th June, 1910"
[Trans. A.H. Parker, Rudolf Steiner Press, London, 1970]
)Why is Peter writing of a tour in Norway, if it was actually a lecture
)series held in Oslo?
)Etc.
That was Peter's mistake, in my opinion a trivial one. For one or two
suddenly very Ahrimanic Anthroposophists, it was cause enough for
them to say he's referring to a lecture that doesn't exist, or a
forgery! That's really silly.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:27:49 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: Re: biodynamics in WWII
And i say it again, as an answer to Percedol:
I have experienced their very special
technic of arguing.
They first of all try not to answer the question,
next is to point out a very small thing to focus on to avoid what¥s
the real point. Very often they accuse their criticis for persecution
Ylva
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Dugan" (dan dandugan.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 8:47 PM
Subject: RE: biodynamics in WWII
) )Ylva Eliasson wrote:
) ))
) )) A lot to read - but I will (and have some.) Thank you so much Peter
) )) Staudenmaier.
) ))
) )) I*m not sure if I misunderstand, but I can*t find any relevance for the
) ) ) anthroposophical accusations against you for forgery.
)
) Percedol commented:
)
) )To begin from the title of the lecture Peter Steudenmeier proposes in
) )his article as:
) )"The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to
) )Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
) )
) )To which lecture is he referring to, since there is no such lecture?
) )(And if there is this lecture he can post it here!)
) )There is, instead a lecture series called:
) )"Die Mission einzelner Volksselen im zusammenhange mit der
) )germanisch-nordischen Mythologie" ["The mission of single folk souls in
) )relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology"], all held in Oslo from June 7 to
) )June 17, 1910.
)
) Everybody knows what lecture series is being referred to. It's silly
) to object to Peter's translation of the title. I don't know German,
) but it looks accurate to me. One official Anthroposophical
) translation of it is:
)
) "The Mission of the Individual Folk Souls in realtion to Teutonic
) Mythology: Eleven lectures given in Christiania (Oslo) from 7th to
) 17th June, 1910"
)
) [Trans. A.H. Parker, Rudolf Steiner Press, London, 1970]
)
) )Why is Peter writing of a tour in Norway, if it was actually a lecture
) )series held in Oslo?
) )Etc.
)
) That was Peter's mistake, in my opinion a trivial one. For one or two
) suddenly very Ahrimanic Anthroposophists, it was cause enough for
) them to say he's referring to a lecture that doesn't exist, or a
) forgery! That's really silly.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
) )
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1083
-- Topica Digest --
Re: biodynamics in WWII
By pstaud hotmail.com
Percedol on forgery
By pstaud hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 21:15:47 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: biodynamics in WWII
Hi Ylva,
your experiences with trying to engage anthroposophists in reasoned dialogue
sound very familiar to me, and I'm sure to many others here. Avoiding the
question seems to count as some sort of virtue with Steiner's followers. The
"forgery" charge is an excellent example; instead of challenging my
interpretation of Steiner's lectures on 'national souls', some
anthroposophists pretend that these lectures don't exist. Percedol's latest
contribution confirms that this dismal procedure is not restricted to a
handful of Scandinavian Steinerites. I think the point of this sort of thing
is simply to distract attention from Steiner's writings, as well as from the
compromised history of the anthroposophical movement. I'm sorry to say that
I have encountered very few fans of Steiner who do not fall into this
pattern. If there are any anthroposophists reading this list who would like
to show a different face to the public, I encourage them to post here.
Peter Staudenmaier
)I¥m not sure if I misunderstand, but I can¥t find any relevance for the
)anthroposophical accusations against you for forgery. All I have read
)before at the "Vetenskap och Folkbildning" sight is, as far as I can see,
)thourogly supported by a source list.
)
)But I have myself, in the answers from anthros to my "letters- to-editor"
),(is there a better word?) experienced their very special technic of
)arguing. They first of all try not to answer the question, next is to point
)out a very small thing to focus on to avoid what¥s the real point. Very
)often they accuse their criticis for persecution - that is what they say
)you are doing (when I referr to your articles, calling you disparaging "an
)activist")!
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 22:32:25 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Percedol on forgery
Percedol writes:
)To begin from the title of the lecture Peter Steudenmeier proposes in
)his article as:
)"The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to
)Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
That is exactly how the title of Steiner's Oslo lectures appears in Hans
Mandl's book Vom Geist des Nordens. Mandl was an early anthroposophist, and
his book was published in 1966, three decades before the definitive version
of these lectures was published. At the time I wrote the first draft of my
article, Mandl's book seemed a reliable source, although now that I have
consulted the various published version of the lectures, I think that the
word "European" most likely did not appear in the original title that
Steiner himself used in 1910, assuming he used any title at all in the
actual spoken lectures.
)To which lecture is he referring to, since there is no such lecture?
All of the 1910 Oslo lectures have been published in authorized editions by
anthroposophists themselves; I have three different versions of the book,
and would be happy to mail photocopies of any of the lectures to anyone who
requests it.
)(And if there is this lecture he can post it here!)
Sune Nordwall has already done that, though he has also altered the text in
several places to make it sound less racist. You can find his version of
lecture six ("The Five Root Races of Mankind"), for example, here:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-6.htm
I highly recommend this chapter, as well as the whole book, to anyone who
would like an introduction to Steiner's racial doctrines.
)There is, instead a lecture series called:
)"Die Mission einzelner Volksselen im zusammenhange mit der
)germanisch-nordischen Mythologie" ["The mission of single folk souls in
)relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology"], all held in Oslo from June 7 to
)June 17, 1910.
Percedol seems to be confused; the word "instead" makes no sense here, since
this is the very same lecture series that my article refers to. As Dan
pointed out, the official English translation of this book is The Mission of
the Individual Folk Souls in Relation to Teutonic Mythology (published in
1970 by the Rudolf Steiner Press). This is the same version that forms the
basis of Sune's on-line version, minus Sune's alterations, of course.
)Why is Peter writing of a tour in Norway, if it was actually a lecture
)series held in Oslo?
If you look very, very carefully at a map, Percedol, you will see that Oslo
is in Norway. (By the way, I don't think that this is a mistake on either my
part or on Mandl's part; it is not unusual, much less incorrect, to refer to
a 'lecture tour' in which all the lectures take place in the same city. The
last time I did a lecture tour of Maryland -- as the organizers of that tour
referred to it -- all of my talks took place within the city of Baltimore.)
As for the anthroposophist term "folk souls": in my opinion, this is a
straightforward translation error. Steiner was hardly the first author to
use the word "Volksseelen"; the term was common among German Idealist
philosophers of the early 19th century, and English translators of Hegel,
for example, have rendered this word as "national souls" for many years. The
German "Volk" (which means nation or people) and the English "folk" are, in
many contexts, false cognates. Steiner goes to considerable lengths, in this
book and elsewhere, to clarify that he means that each specific people or
nation has its own distinctive soul; the longstanding translation "national
souls" conveys this meaning clearly, while the anthroposophist neologism
"folk souls" obscures it.
On the topic of "forgery" in general: I wholeheartedly agree with Dan that
this particular ruse on the part of anthroposophists like Sune and Percedol
is simply silly. Everyone who reads my article can read Steiner's lectures
themselves and decide if I have misrepresented their content. As for the
other ostensible errors in the opening paragraph of my article, the only one
that is even potentially a genuine mistake is directly traceable to the
anthroposophist Hans Mandl; if his version of the title is indeed
inaccurate, the fault obviously lies with him, not with me.
If list members would like to undertake a comparison of my article with the
Steiner works that I cite, including the book on "folk souls", you can find
the final version of the article as a pdf file at the openwaldorf site:
http://www.openwaldorf.com/anthroposophyandecofascism.pdf
This article also surveys the collaboration between the leadership of the
biodynamic movement (along with many other anthroposophists) and the
so-called 'green wing' of the Nazis. I encourage any and all
anthroposophists posting under the moniker "Percedol" (or anybody else, for
that matter) to state their views on this collaboration and its significance
for anthroposophy's history.
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1084
-- Topica Digest --
Quackery
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
New person
By Redwoodforest msn.com
how to deal with PLANS and Dan Dugan
By dan dandugan.com
Re: biodynamics in WWII
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:01:31 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Quackery
I could not resist. I tried to imagine Steiner lecturing on occultism and
future epochs *and then* using terms like "quackery" to describe those not
in tune with Anthroposophy. Classic:
From: Evil and the Future of Man
A Lecture By
Rudolf Steiner
Dornach, October 26, 1918
GA 185
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/EvlMan_index.html
"How often do we see men arising here or there, making this or that proposal
for the social and economic life out of a specious wisdom, and always with
the mistaken idea that it is still possible to make constructive proposals
for the social life without calling in the aid of Spiritual Science. He
alone thinks in accordance with the times who knows that every attempted
proposal concerning the social configuration of mankind in future is the
merest quackery unless it is founded on Spiritual Science. Only he who
realises this, in all its implications, is thinking truly in accordance with
the times. Those who still pay heed to all manner of professorial wisdom on
social economics - arising on the basis of an unspiritual science - are
passing through the present time asleep."
Later... "- how surprising it is to compare the essays on Historic Method
by Hermann Grimm, who stood so fully within the German mid-European culture
of the nineteenth century, with essays on the same subject by Woodrow
Wilson. I have carried out the experiment with great care: it is possible to
take over certain sentences from Woodrow Wilson and insert them bodily in
Hermann Grimm's essays, for they are almost word-for-word identical with
sentences in Hermann Grimm. Again, whole sentences on Historic Method by
Hermann Grimm can be transplanted into the lectures subsequently published
by Woodrow Wilson. And yet there is a radical difference between the two - a
difference which we notice as we read. Not indeed a difference in content:
literal content will be of far less importance for mankind as we evolve
towards the future. The difference is this: in Hermann Grimm, everything -
even passages with which one cannot agree - has been struggled for, it has
been conquered step by step, sentence by sentence. In Woodrow Wilson, on the
other hand, it is as though his own inner demon, by which he is possessed in
his subconsciousness, had instilled it all into his consciousness. On the
one hand the things spring forth directly, at the surface of consciousness;
on the other, they are "inspirations" imparted by a demon out of the
subconscious into the conscious life. Indeed, we must say that what comes
from Woodrow Wilson's side derives from a certain state of possession."
Still later...
"To see through the veils of language: this must come over humanity in
future. Men must acquire the faculty to perceive the inner gesture in
speech. This age will not come to an end - certainly the last stages of it
will go on into the following epoch - but the third millennium will not pass
by till men have come to this: they will no longer listen to another man who
speaks to them as they listen to him nowadays. They will find expressed in
speech and language the human being's dependence on the third Hierarchy - on
the Angels, Archangels and Archai. In speech they will find an expression of
that whereby a man penetrates into the spiritual - into the supersensible.
Then they will hear through speech into the soul of man. Needless to say, we
shall have an altogether different social life when men can hear through
speech the inner soul of man. Much indeed of the force of so-called evil
will have to be transmuted in this way, by man becoming able to hearken to
the things another man is saying and to hear, through his speech, his soul.
Then, when the soul is heard through speech, there will come over man a
wonderful feeling of colour, and through this feeling of colour in speech
men will learn to understand one another internationally. Quite as a matter
of course one sound will call forth the same feeling as the sight of a blue
colour, and another sound the same feeling as the sight of a red colour.
Thus, what will only be felt as warmth when one sees the human being, will
grow as it were into colour when one listens to his speech. One will have to
enter with intimate sympathy into the sound of the speech which is borne
from human lips to human ear. That is the second thing which is
approaching."
Me: It is not simply my intention to poke fun at Steiner here with *his*
claim of unbelievers and "quackery." (I am left wondering if this
translation is correct?) I do believe, however, had I not been told that
Rudolf Steiner was a philosopher, educator, artist, etc., but was clearly a
turn of the century occultist (with strong opinions of those who do not
follow *his* path) our family would have probably avoided
WaldorfAnthroposophy from day one. I suspect I am not alone.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 00:41:02 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: New person
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C344E9.9BAA3DC0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hello,
My name is Lysa. I am new to this group.
A little bit about me:
When I was working on my New York State teaching credential in 1986 I
was very upset with the methods used in traditional education. I
felt that they were very "cookie cutter like" with their basil
reading and math programs. All the emphasis was going solely towards
reading and math at the expense of science, social studies, art,
music, and geography. When I voiced my opinion about this I was sent
to do my student teaching in a local Waldorf School. I was very
excited. I had seen Waldorf children's artwork and had been told
stories of children learning their multiplication tables in new ways.
Yet, when I started working there I was saddened by the lack of any
education at the lower levels and the "miseducation" at the higher
levels. One of my strongest memories was a sixth grader asking how a
copy machine worked. As I started to explain about circuits and such
her teacher came running across the classroom and pushed me out of
the way. "You see," she said, "There are these little gnomes that
live inside. It's all dark and cozy and so they are asleep, yet when
you push the start button a light goes on and they wake up and
quickly copy the paper." I was appalled at this fairytale answer to
a scientific question. They were appalled at my scientific answer
and so I was asked not to return to my student teaching position.
I left the position and was then assigned to a Montessori school
where I was told that children didn't have to do anything unless they
wanted to, and that every problem a child had was because of the
teacher. When a 5 grade boy urinated in the corner of the classroom
I was told it was because he was "expressing" himself. I could not
discipline him. When another went to the bathroom 15 times in a day,
I was asked, "Why are you counting? Why do you care where he is ?"
Needless to say I graduated from school frustrated with every system
of education I had come in contact with.
A few years later, fending off homelessness, I took a Montessori
teaching position. Reluctantly I attended a course where I learned
that so much of what I experienced in the Montessori school was a
complete and utter misinterpretation of the Montessori Philosophy. I
received my Montessori certification with delight and have been
working for the past ten years to help build and train Montessori
teachers that truly understand the method.
Which made me think of Waldorf. I kept on thinking that maybe there
was a misinterpretation of the philosophy or method that had
happened at the Waldorf School where I had done my student teaching.
Yet every time I tried to talk to Waldorf teachers about this I
watched them freeze up. Just hearing the word Montessori put them
out. Although frustrated, I decided that it was probably due to a
long lived philosophical debate and was still interested in the
method. So I started posing as a disillusioned public school teacher.
Yet every time I tried to ask about the program or method I was
referred to expensive long term courses.
Now although I love and believe in the Montessori Method, I always
see room for improvement and wanted to include some of the Waldorf
Art and teaching methods such as stamping out the multiplication
tables. So on and off I have attempted to give Waldorf a chance, yet
to no avail. I even lived with a woman whose 9 year old daughter
attended the Santa Cruz Waldorf School and would try to discuss the
philosophy and method with the different people from the school when
they came to dinner or we attended one of their functions, only to be
given the cold shoulder and a referral to an intro class. In every
intro class I attended my questions were addressed with annoyance
and either a brush off or referral to an expensive class. It was
really frustrating to me at that point because I wasn't just trying
to learn about the method anymore, but I was truly worried about my
housemates 9 year old child who couldn't even write her own name and
NO ONE seemed worried about it. (They did worry about how well she
was knitting though. This amazed me since I wasn't impressed with
her handiwork. My cousins and I had been taught to knit at 4 by my
mother and were more accomplished by 9 then she or any of her friends
were at the school.) After the death of my housemate I decided to
forget about Waldorf for good. But it hasn't been easy. People often
ask me to explain the difference between Waldorf and Montessori, or
worse yet get us confused and start attacking me telling me that I am
a cultist and try to indoctrinate people into my new age cult.
Because of this I have decided to learn as much as I can about
Waldorf education so I can address people's questions and concerns
adequately.
In addition, this year I had a young boy in my 2nd grade class who
was having trouble learning to read and write, and yet was so
artistic that I was often left breathless at his art work. I kept on
thinking to myself, "If only I could learn more about art techniques,
maybe I would be able to help him academically through art." and so
of course I came back to trying to learn about Waldorf techniques.
This time, since I am far from any Waldorf schools, I decided to use
the net. That is how I found you. As I read your stories I realized
that it wasn't me, or even Montessori, that had built the wall that I
so often saw while asking about Waldorf, but the questioning of their
methods in general. I guess I feel better, but I am still saddened.
I do see good in things that they do. I notice that this was
considered fluff in some people's posts, and I understand that, but I
think that some of the "fluff", combined in a different setting would
be quite beneficial to some children, don't you think? I do like the
idea of integrating beautiful drawings with math, science, language
and so on, as well as exposing the children to a more kinesthetic way
of learning the multiplication tables. I mean we all were looking for
a better way to education children, that is why we ended up looking
into Waldorf in the first place isn't it?
Anyhow, that is why I have joined your group. I hope you don't mind.
I want to learn. I also noticed that there are other people who are
interested in trying to create a better method of education for
children. I am VERY interested in corresponding with them.
Thank You and looking forward to reading your posts,
Lysa De Thomas
redwoodforest msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 00:31:49 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: how to deal with PLANS and Dan Dugan
I was amused to find my name mentioned on an Anthroposophical web
page. The Council of Anthroposophical Organizations has a front
organization:
http://www.spiritworking.org
If you browse to the press room and the "Media and Multicultural Project":
http://www.spiritworking.org/press/mmproject.html
There is a collection of Word files that download when you click on
them. The one titled "Media and Multicultural Relations Project"
begins:
)In response to your requests, the Spirit Working Media Office has
)worked with AWSNA to design a project to help Waldorf Schools assess
)and clarify their messages and practices and become more skilled at
)reaching out and responding to the public and the media. We offer 3
)types of support:
)
)I. Group Training Program - via conference call
)II. In-House Workshops - for your school or regional group of schools
)III. Individual Consultation
)
)This project can help you:
)* Feel prepared and more confident during media interviews.
)* Clarify your goals regarding cultural diversity.
)* Understand how media relations are connected to cultural diversity.
)* Create more clarity about roles within your organization.
)* Respond to critics.
)* Foster positive relationships with media contacts.
)* Increase enrollment and visibility within your community.
)* Affect broader cultural change regarding childhood and education.
In the Group Training Program, the problems are addressed:
)Session #4 Crisis Communication and Prevention
)Objectives
)* Learn how to respond to the hard questions: diversity, race,
)Waldorf culture, PLANS website/Dan Dugan, religion, science,
)academics, patriotism etc. (Sample language from AWSNA provided.)
)* Gain experience with techniques for crisis communications - being
)prepared, do's and don'ts in the moment.
)* Hear success stories. What's working for other schools? What
)doesn't work so well?
So here's where they learn how to deflect and dismiss the hard
questions. Best of luck, folks!
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 00:48:16 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: biodynamics in WWII
I recently saw the movie "Max," which is a fictional account (with
some basis in fact) of the young Hitler's relationship with a Jewish
art dealer--their common ground is having both been wounded in the
war. It takes place in 1918-1919, crucial years for both Hitler and
Anthroposophy. The Nazi party and the Waldorf school were both
founded in 1919.
In the film there's a passing reference to what I suspect is
biodynamic agriculture. In discussing what's to be served at a
reception, someone says, "oh, everything's bio now."
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1085
-- Topica Digest --
Re: New person
By dan dandugan.com
RE: how to deal with PLANS and Dan Dugan
By diana.winters verizon.net
on forgery
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: biodynamics in WWII
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: New person
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: New person
By spectmore yahoo.com
Re: New person
By Redwoodforest msn.com
[NNA-news] Rise in turnover for Weleda in Germany despite
difficult climate in
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 01:02:49 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: New person
)My name is Lysa. I am new to this group.
Welcome, Lysa!
)...One of my strongest memories was a sixth grader asking how a copy
)machine worked. As I started to explain about circuits and such her
)teacher came running across the classroom and pushed me out of the
)way. "You see," she said, "There are these little gnomes that live
)inside. It's all dark and cozy and so they are asleep, yet when you
)push the start button a light goes on and they wake up and quickly
)copy the paper."
Sixth graders! A good example of Waldorf's infantilizing.
)...this year I had a young boy in my 2nd grade class who was having
)trouble learning to read and write, and yet was so artistic that I
)was often left breathless at his art work. I kept on thinking to
)myself, "If only I could learn more about art techniques, maybe I
)would be able to help him academically through art." and so of
)course I came back to trying to learn about Waldorf techniques.
Unfortunately, the art in Waldorf is so tied up with Anthroposophical
principles that it's hardly art as most people use the word. They do,
in fact, consider a lot of the art they do to be "therapeutic," but
the therapy they mean is healing the damage of materialistic society,
that needs to be re-spiritualized. Unfortunately, their ideological
objectives have little to do with the kind of help that that boy
could use.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:04:05 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: how to deal with PLANS and Dan Dugan
I found this awhile ago Dan, and I thought I posted it here, maybe I
forgot. This is what I was talking about when I was saying they are
going to get more sophisticated about their PR, and this use of "front"
organizations is the wave of the future in anthro-land I'm sure.
Did you ever hear such bullshit? I love "understand how media relations
are connected to cultural diversity" - we don't have enough dark faces,
dark faces are what they want to see, think fast here . . .
I was amused to find my name mentioned on an Anthroposophical web
page. The Council of Anthroposophical Organizations has a front
organization:
http://www.spiritworking.org
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 03:49:54 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: on forgery
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
)
) Percedol writes:
)
) )To begin from the title of the lecture Peter Steudenmeier proposes in
) )his article as:
) )"The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to
) )Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
)
) That is exactly how the title of Steiner's Oslo lectures appears in Hans
)
) Mandl's book Vom Geist des Nordens. Mandl was an early anthroposophist,
) and
) his book was published in 1966, three decades before the definitive
) version
) of these lectures was published. At the time I wrote the first draft of
) my
) article, Mandl's book seemed a reliable source, although now that I have
)
) consulted the various published version of the lectures, I think that
) the
) word "European" most likely did not appear in the original title
P:
It does not appear!
that
) Steiner himself used in 1910, assuming he used any title at all in the
) actual spoken lectures.
)
) )To which lecture is he referring to, since there is no such lecture?
)
) All of the 1910 Oslo lectures have been published in authorized editions
) by
) anthroposophists themselves; I have three different versions of the
) book,
) and would be happy to mail photocopies of any of the lectures to anyone
) who
) requests it.
)
) )(And if there is this lecture he can post it here!)
)
) Sune Nordwall has already done that, though he has also altered the text
) in
) several places to make it sound less racist. You can find his version of
)
) lecture six ("The Five Root Races of Mankind"), for example, here:
)
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-6.htm
)
) I highly recommend this chapter, as well as the whole book, to anyone
) who
) would like an introduction to Steiner's racial doctrines.
P:
I have an Italian translation of that cycle. I don't see anything wrong
with the content of lecture six.
)
) )There is, instead a lecture series called:
) )"Die Mission einzelner Volksselen im zusammenhange mit der
) )germanisch-nordischen Mythologie" ["The mission of single folk souls in
) )relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology"], all held in Oslo from June 7 to
) )June 17, 1910.
)
) Percedol seems to be confused; the word "instead" makes no sense here,
) since
) this is the very same lecture series that my article refers to. As Dan
) pointed out, the official English translation of this book is The
) Mission of
) the Individual Folk Souls in Relation to Teutonic Mythology (published
) in
) 1970 by the Rudolf Steiner Press).
P:
It would be totally wrong if 'germanisch-nordischen' had ben translated
with 'teutonic'.
This is the same version that forms the
) basis of Sune's on-line version, minus Sune's alterations, of course.
)
) )Why is Peter writing of a tour in Norway, if it was actually a lecture
) )series held in Oslo?
)
) If you look very, very carefully at a map, Percedol, you will see that
) Oslo
) is in Norway. (By the way, I don't think that this is a mistake on
) either my
) part or on Mandl's part; it is not unusual, much less incorrect, to
) refer to
) a 'lecture tour' in which all the lectures take place in the same city.
) The
) last time I did a lecture tour of Maryland -- as the organizers of that
) tour
) referred to it -- all of my talks took place within the city of
) Baltimore.)
)
) As for the anthroposophist term "folk souls": in my opinion, this is a
) straightforward translation error. Steiner was hardly the first author
) to
) use the word "Volksseelen"; the term was common among German Idealist
) philosophers of the early 19th century, and English translators of
) Hegel,
) for example, have rendered this word as "national souls" for many years.
) The
) German "Volk" (which means nation or people) and the English "folk" are,
) in
) many contexts, false cognates.
P:
I would say it is 'People Souls', literally. But there is no 'European'
and, especially, no 'teutonic'. It's a big difference.
Steiner goes to considerable lengths, in this
) book and elsewhere, to clarify that he means that each specific people
) or
) nation has its own distinctive soul; the longstanding translation
) "national
) souls" conveys this meaning clearly, while the anthroposophist neologism
)
) "folk souls" obscures it.
)
) On the topic of "forgery" in general: I wholeheartedly agree with Dan
) that
) this particular ruse on the part of anthroposophists like Sune and
) Percedol
) is simply silly. Everyone who reads my article can read Steiner's
) lectures
) themselves and decide if I have misrepresented their content. As for the
)
) other ostensible errors in the opening paragraph of my article, the only
) one
) that is even potentially a genuine mistake is directly traceable to the
) anthroposophist Hans Mandl; if his version of the title is indeed
) inaccurate, the fault obviously lies with him, not with me.
One can check and compare at:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/plans1.html
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/PS/Staudenmaier.htm
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/comments1.htm
)
) If list members would like to undertake a comparison of my article with
) the
) Steiner works that I cite, including the book on "folk souls", you can
) find
) the final version of the article as a pdf file at the openwaldorf site:
)
) http://www.openwaldorf.com/anthroposophyandecofascism.pdf
)
) This article also surveys the collaboration between the leadership of
) the
) biodynamic movement (along with many other anthroposophists) and the
) so-called 'green wing' of the Nazis. I encourage any and all
) anthroposophists posting under the moniker "Percedol" (or anybody else,
) for
) that matter) to state their views on this collaboration and its
) significance
) for anthroposophy's history.
P:
If there were individuals who were siding with the nazis and practiced
biodynamic methods, and or followed A. to me it does not mean anything.
Following A. does not automatically make that a good person to me. And
different people understand different things, some more some less, and
some misunderstand everything. So, what you say does not tell me
anything about A.
It tells me about people who can embrace any idea or theory, etc. and
mix it with other views.
Would you have expected that all Christians in history were good. Or do
you blame Christianity for those who were bad?
And if they were bad, were they really Christians?
Or is it enough to cultivate some land with biodynamic methods to
understand A.?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 03:52:19 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: biodynamics in WWII
Ylva Eliasson wrote:
)
) And i say it again, as an answer to Percedol:
)
) I have experienced their very special
) technic of arguing.
) They first of all try not to answer the question,
) next is to point out a very small thing to focus on to avoid what¥s the
) real point. Very often they accuse their criticis for persecution
)
) Ylva
P:
What is the real point?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 03:59:57 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: New person
Lysa De Thomas wrote:
)
) Hello,
) My name is Lysa.
)
)
)
) I left the position and was then assigned to a Montessori school where I
) was told that children didn't have to do anything unless they wanted to,
) and that every problem a child had was because of the teacher. When a 5
) grade boy urinated in the corner of the classroom I was told it was
) because he was "expressing" himself. I could not discipline him. When
) another went to the bathroom 15 times in a day, I was asked, "Why are
) you counting? Why do you care where he is ?"
)
) Needless to say I graduated from school frustrated with every system of
) education I had come in contact with.
)
) A few years later, fending off homelessness, I took a Montessori
) teaching position. Reluctantly I attended a course where I learned that
) so much of what I experienced in the Montessori school was a complete
) and utter misinterpretation of the Montessori Philosophy. I received my
) Montessori certification with delight and have been working for the past
) ten years to help build and train Montessori teachers that truly
) understand the method.
P:
Are you saying that the teachers you met in the first place did NOT
understand the Montessori method they were teaching?
If so, could you please expand a little on what was the actual attitude
of that method? It is not about letting children express themselves
freely?
Second:
Is it possible that Waldorf teachers did not understand Waldorf
education as well? So, in one case eventually you were able to get the
right thing, but not in the second.
I know some parents of Waldorf students and they are happy, also those
who do not follow A.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 05:16:17 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: New person
Can I say how much I gleefully enjoy seeing the monkier 'Percedol" with
the subjct line of 'New Person"?
Tee hee.
Which person now?
Percedol wrote:
)
) Lysa De Thomas wrote:
) )
) ) Hello,
)
) ) My name is Lysa.
) )
)
) )
) )
) ) I left the position and was then assigned to a Montessori school where I
) )
) ) was told that children didn't have to do anything unless they wanted to,
) )
) ) and that every problem a child had was because of the teacher. When a 5
) )
) ) grade boy urinated in the corner of the classroom I was told it was
) ) because he was "expressing" himself. I could not discipline him. When
) ) another went to the bathroom 15 times in a day, I was asked, "Why are
) ) you counting? Why do you care where he is ?"
) )
) ) Needless to say I graduated from school frustrated with every system of
) ) education I had come in contact with.
) )
) ) A few years later, fending off homelessness, I took a Montessori
) ) teaching position. Reluctantly I attended a course where I learned that
) )
) ) so much of what I experienced in the Montessori school was a complete
) ) and utter misinterpretation of the Montessori Philosophy. I received my
) )
) ) Montessori certification with delight and have been working for the past
) )
) ) ten years to help build and train Montessori teachers that truly
) ) understand the method.
)
) P:
) Are you saying that the teachers you met in the first place did NOT
) understand the Montessori method they were teaching?
) If so, could you please expand a little on what was the actual attitude
) of that method? It is not about letting children express themselves
) freely?
)
) Second:
) Is it possible that Waldorf teachers did not understand Waldorf
) education as well? So, in one case eventually you were able to get the
) right thing, but not in the second.
) I know some parents of Waldorf students and they are happy, also those
) who do not follow A.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 22:31:39 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: New person
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C345A0.B2B3AF30
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
P:
Are you saying that the teachers you met in the first place did NOT
understand the Montessori method they were teaching?
Absolutely! There are many "Montessori schools out there who do not
have one Montessori certified teacher in them. The program that I am
running at the moment had three teachers and a director all without
any training before I came.
If so, could you please expand a little on what was the actual attitude
of that method? It is not about letting children express themselves
freely?
Montessorians believe that children are naturally inquisitive and
that their job is to help children learn to learn. We see the child
as an individual even when teaching to a standard. (Very important in
the public sector at the moment.) For example I need to teach
children to read, but each child has their own learning style,
strengths and weaknesses, interests and so on. Therefore my classroom
is prepared for that. I have a full range of phonics and whole
language materials from pre- K level to junior high in my 6 to 9 year
old classroom. I have the same range of mathematics materials.
There are also many ways to teach a concept. (For example I have 10
different materials to teach a child to add.) My job is to set up
activities for each child so that they can learn from the material or
materials that will suit them the best. My job is also to monitor
each child closely so when they have mastered a concept they can
move along to the next "level" without being bored. Likewise
children who need extra time mastering a concept are not pushed on to
the next level simply because other children are ready, or the
textbook says it's time to move on. They are allowed time to work on
the concept that is troubling them for as long as they need to. Our
philosophy is "If you can't add single digit numbers together, how
are you going to be able to add double and triple digit numbers
together, especially when you need to regroup."( The teacher also
needs to be monitoring this, changing materials if needed, giving
extra one on one help when needed, and so on.)
Montessorians also don't teach in units, but in flowing and
integrating strands. To use Mathematics as an example, Math facts,
algorithms, geometry, graphing, fractions, algebra, to name a few are
taught independently of each other flowing forward and integrating
with the other topics when it can, yet never being a two week
vacation from each other. This works with all areas of academics:
science, history, social studies, language, mathematics, geography,...
The freedom that we Montessorians so cherish is that each child can
work at their optimal pace of acquisition, which is rarely linear.
Also in most classes, they have a choice as to when they do their
work (some classrooms and days it is due before lunch, at others it
can be at the end of the day or even the week.) Which materials they
use to complete their work is often their choice too. (Would you like
to use the strip board, bead stair, golden beads, snake game or one
of the 5 addition boards to do your addition today?) It also comes
from being able to use topics that interest them. 2nd grade
standards in California are knowing about the table of contents, the
index and the glossary . Instead of using a dry textbook with
questions at the end of the chapter, my students used books they
choose themselves. At first they answered my questions like, "If you
wanted to find the pages in your book on dinosaurs that mentions with
the t-rex Tyler, what would you use?" Later they do it themselves
while writing research projects that they choose themselves.
I guess that's enough for now.
Second:
Is it possible that Waldorf teachers did not understand Waldorf
education as well? So, in one case eventually you were able to get the
right thing, but not in the second.
I know some parents of Waldorf students and they are happy, also those
who do not follow A.
That's exactly what I was saying. I have experienced first hand how
a method can be butchered. I have always wondered if that was what
was happening at the Waldorf school where I student taught, yet I
have never been able to have a decent conversation with an
experienced Waldorf teacher. They always evade my questions. Also I
said I LIKED the art, and am always looking for new ways to teach
academics. From what I have heard, Waldorf has a great many
kinesthetic and artistic techniques for teaching academic subjects.
I would love to learn them.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 20:52:27 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: [NNA-news] Rise in turnover for Weleda in Germany despite
difficult climate in 2002
Copyright 2003 News Network Anthroposophy Limited. All rights reserved.
The following material may be republished without the prior consent
of News Network Anthroposophy. News Network Anthroposophy does,
however, require acknowledgement of the source and, if provided, the
author of the material.
+ + + + +
NNA-B U S I N E S S
Rise in turnover for Weleda in Germany despite difficult climate in 2002
By Christian von Arnim
Schwabisch Gmund, 2 July (NNA) - The difficult overall economic
climate in Germany has also affected the results of the producer of
anthroposophical medicines and natural cosmetics, Weleda AG, in
Schwabisch Gmund in Germany.
The 2002 pre-tax profits of the German subsidiary of the Swiss-based
Weleda Group lay two percentage points below the previous year at
just under 4.5m euros and thus below expectations. Results after tax
were 2.7m euros (2.8m euros in previous year).
Despite this decline in results, the company was able to increase
turnover by six percent from 83.4m euros to 88.7m euros. The body
care segment contributed six percent to the growth in turnover. The
company launched a new wild rose face care range and a new sandthorn
line and the sandthorn hand cream had been a great success, Weleda
said.
Exports to western and eastern Europe as well as to America had also
been satisfactory with growth of more than ten percent, the company
said.
Despite these positive developments, director Rudolf Frisch,
responsible for finances, controlling and production, commented:
"Turnover has not fulfilled our expectations." This was due to the
economic situation in Germany. The slow speed of social reform and
sluggish growth in the German economy were being watched with concern.
Considerable improvements had been achieved in the internal
organisation of the company, Weleda said. There had been significant
progress particularly in supply chain management, the
customer-oriented interaction between sales, production, purchasing
and logistics: "As a result of the new organisation, inventories have
been reduced by 33 percent within one year," Frisch said. This had
had a positive effect on costs, liquidity and degree of indebtedness.
Restrained growth anticipated for 2003
Weleda anticipates slow growth in the body care segment in 2003, too,
due to the lack of improvement in the overall economic situation.
With medicines, stagnation or slightly negative growth is expected,
caused by the effects of statutory regulations.
On 1 January 2003, a six percent price reduction was imposed by law
on the pharmaceutical industry, which would have a direct effect on
results. Weleda was thus expecting a lower result in comparison to
2002. In future, too, Weleda would have additional expenditures of
millions of euros for approval and registration of medicines.
International Weleda Group
The Weleda Group employed 1,264 staff last year. In 2002, the parent
company Weleda AG in Arlesheim, Switzerland, with its German
subsidiary in Schwabisch Gmund and 18 majority holdings worldwide
achieved an increase in consolidated world sales to 147.2m euros,
representing growth of 6.1 percent. The Group result after tax grew
by 20.9 percent to three million euros. Operating costs rose
significantly less at 3.2 percent than in the previous year (9.4
percent).
In the year just passed, Weleda France, too, was able to show record
domestic growth in turnover of 16 percent.
ENDS
+ + + + +
Item reference number: N030702-01EN
Date: 2 July 2003
More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1086
-- Topica Digest --
Re: on forgery
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: New person
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: New person
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: New person
By Redwoodforest msn.com
Sorry for the brain glitch!
By Redwoodforest msn.com
Re: New person
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: New person
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: on forgery
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: on forgery
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: on forgery
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: New person
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: on forgery
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: New person
By Redwoodforest msn.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:04:51 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on forgery
I wrote:
) ) At the time I wrote the first draft of
) ) my
) ) article, Mandl's book seemed a reliable source, although now that I have
) ) consulted the various published version of the lectures, I think that
) ) the
) ) word "European" most likely did not appear in the original title that )
)Steiner himself used in 1910, assuming he used any title at all in the )
)actual spoken lectures.
and Percedol replied:
)It does not appear!
I don't think you're paying attention here, Percedol. Unless you believe
that you were present at Steiner's Oslo lectures in June 1910, your claims
about which titles Steiner used at that time require some sort of
substantiation, such as a secondary source from a first-generation
anthroposophist, like Mandl. If all you're trying to say is that the word
'European' does not appear in the current published edition of those
lectures, then we have no disagreement. What does this have to do with
forgery, by the way?
)P:
)I have an Italian translation of that cycle. I don't see anything wrong
)with the content of lecture six.
No, of course you don't. You believe in Steiner's theory of "root races",
you agree with his description of "racial characteristics", you share his
views on "the proper distribution of the races", you promote his teachings
about "Race Spirits", and you embrace his ideas about "Aryans". The fact
that your perspective on such matters is widespread within the contemporary
anthroposophist movement is exactly what prompted me to write that article
in the first place.
For those who haven't yet had an opportunity to read lecture six (from which
all of the quoted terms in the preceding paragraph are taken), here is small
sample of the content that Percedol finds so appealing: Steiner writes here
that "racial continuity through the blood-stream was of particular
importance to the Semitic Hebrew people", and expounds on this theme as
follows:
"the Jahve forces from the Moon sphere meet and cooperate with the Mars
Spirits and thus a special kind of modification arises, namely, the Semitic
race. Here is the occult explanation for the origin of the Semites. The
Semitic people are an example of a modification of collective humanity.
Jahve or Jehovah shuts Himself off from the other Elohim and invests this
people with a special character by cooperating with the Mars Spirits, in
order to bring about a special modification of his people. You will now
understand the peculiar character of the Semitic people and its mission."
Many, many anthroposophists do not see anything wrong with these racial
doctrines.
) ) the official English translation of this book is The
) ) Mission of
) ) the Individual Folk Souls in Relation to Teutonic Mythology (published
) ) in
) ) 1970 by the Rudolf Steiner Press).
)
)P:
)It would be totally wrong if 'germanisch-nordischen' had ben translated
)with 'teutonic'.
I suggest you take up that matter with your fellow anthroposophists. The
translator was an anthroposophist, and the translation was fully authorized
by the executors of Steiner's literary estate.
)P:
)I would say it is 'People Souls', literally.
Yes, "people souls" is a literal translation of "Volksseelen", as I have
often noted before. If that phrase didn't sound stilted and clumsy in
English, it would be an acceptable rendering.
)But there is no 'European'
)and, especially, no 'teutonic'. It's a big difference.
I don't agree that this constitutes a big difference, but in any case you're
telling this to the wrong person. I didn't come up with either term;
anthroposophists did. Remind me again: what does this have to do with
forgery?
)P:
)If there were individuals who were siding with the nazis and practiced
)biodynamic methods, and or followed A.
That isn't an open question; there's no "if" involved here. And it wasn't
merely "individuals", it was the official and acknowledged leadership of the
biodynamic movement. Quite a few of the official and acknowledged leaders of
the anthroposophical movement as a whole also sided with the Nazis. But to
latter-day anthroposophists like Percedol, of course, this history of
collaboration "does not mean anything." I rest my case.
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 14:34:09 +0000
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa wrote: My job is also to monitor each child closely so when they have
mastered a concept they can move along to the next "level" without being
bored. Likewise children who need extra time mastering a concept are not
pushed on to the next level simply because other children are ready, or the
textbook says it's time to move on. They are allowed time to work on the
concept that is troubling them for as long as they need to. Our philosophy
is "If you can't add single digit numbers together, how are you going to be
able to add double and triple digit numbers together, especially when you
need to regroup."
Nicole: Welcome Lysa. I was a Waldorf subject teacher, class parent and
parent of 3 children in Waldorf and I think you may find Waldorf is not what
is appears to be in many ways. Waldorf, in my experience, takes exactly the
opposite approach to the one you describe above- a 'you are this age
therefore it is spiritually necessary for you to be doing this work'
approach, especially in math. I agree with you that children who can't add
single digit numbers together should master that before moving on (this is
the Kumon approach as well), but Waldorf would disagree. I have seen, in
more than one class, children who cannot add and do not know their
multiplication tables being asked to multiply 2 and 3 digit number together
(grade 4/5) or do multi-digit decimal division (grade 6). I have seen
essentially innumerate children graduate from the school, where there is
nothing systmatic about the way math is taught at all as far as I can see,
and proceed into high school where they are expected to solve systems of
simultaneous linear equations, factor binomial expressions or find the
volume of complex shapes. It is an almost impossible task. Children should
never be set up to fail in such a way.
On the other had, I have also seen children, my son included, who are bored
to tears with what is being taught in math and yet are not allowed to work
at their own level. Waldorf dislikes children who are prematurely 'too
awake' (ie capable of abstract, logical thought before the age of about 14)
and spends time and energy trying to stuff the genie back into the bottle.
Waldorf doesn't see young children as individuals to be encouraged in their
individuality, as Montessori obviously does, but as incompletely incarnated
components of a group rigidly defined by age. Waldorf is not about freedom -
quite the opposite in fact.
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 14:55:03 +0000
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa wrote: I have experienced first hand how a method can be butchered. I
have always wondered if that was what was happening at the Waldorf school
where I student taught, yet I have never been able to have a decent
conversation with an experienced Waldorf teacher. They always evade my
questions. Also I said I LIKED the art, and am always looking for new ways
to teach academics. From what I have heard, Waldorf has a great many
kinesthetic and artistic techniques for teaching academic subjects. I would
love to learn them.
Nicole: Here's a link (I hope it comes up as a link anyway, if not you
could paste it into your browser) to a description of the experiences of Dr
David Mollet (a dedicated fan of Waldorf teaching methods who has spent his
career trying to disentangle them from anthroposophy). I think his
experiences with the Steinerites speak for themselves. He has designed his
own curricula, which might be of interest to you as another method which
might work for some children.
http://members.aol.com/WaldorfEdu/experiences.html
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:58:01 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: New person
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C34600.94FE6470
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Nicole,
Thank you for the link. Reading that post was an amazing experience
for me, in so many ways it mirrored my own experiences with
Montessori Education (I had to run off of a Caribbean island with a
fake passport after being fired from one school.)
I tried to look up the articles he wrote about, but the web pages
have expired. I am going to attempt to send him an e-mail at the
address that he gave, but do you know his name?
Thanks,
Lysa
PS
I'm so sorry that your child is bored in math. This happens so much.
Some children become trouble makers, others give up, a few others do
the work on their own. How old is he? There are some great programs
available if he is still school age.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:59:19 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Sorry for the brain glitch!
------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C34600.C3E53A70
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
OK, stupid question, I reviewed your post and saw his name starting
me in the face. Sorry for the brain glitch!
----- Original Message -----
From: Nicole Foss
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 7:55 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa wrote: I have experienced first hand how a method can be butchered. I
have always wondered if that was what was happening at the Waldorf school
where I student taught, yet I have never been able to have a decent
conversation with an experienced Waldorf teacher. They always evade my
questions. Also I said I LIKED the art, and am always looking for new ways
to teach academics. From what I have heard, Waldorf has a great many
kinesthetic and artistic techniques for teaching academic subjects. I would
love to learn them.
Nicole: Here's a link (I hope it comes up as a link anyway, if not you
could paste it into your browser) to a description of the experiences of Dr
David Mollet (a dedicated fan of Waldorf teaching methods who has spent his
career trying to disentangle them from anthroposophy). I think his
experiences with the Steinerites speak for themselves. He has designed his
own curricula, which might be of interest to you as another method which
might work for some children.
http://members.aol.com/WaldorfEdu/experiences.html
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 18:31:11 +0000
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: New person
Hi Lysa,
His name is Dr David Mollet. There's a bit of a discussion of his work at
OpenWaldorf.com in the forum (click on Forums in the top right hand corner)
entitled Waldorf Home-schoolers. There's a thread called David Mollet's
anthroposophy-free curricula. The link I sent you cames from someone who
posts at OpenWaldorf under the name Melange1 if memory serves. I'll ask at
OpenWaldorf if he/she knows any more information. It may also be possible to
find something relevant with a google search using his name. I tried to
email him myself once, but I think that email account may not be operational
any more.
OpenWaldorf is an interesting place to go for more Waldorf information as
well. There are many topics under discussion, both pro and con.
Nicole
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 23:16:27 +0000
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: New person
Hi Lysa,
I did a google search for David Mollet and came up with the following links
(with some duplication of content).
http://members.cox.net/waldorfedu/waldorfedu/
http://members.aol.com/WaldorfEdu/
http://members.cox.net/waldorfedu/waldorfedu/Pedagogy.html
Thanks for asking about my son by the way. He's 10 and has just left Waldorf
after 3 years for an academic private school where they've promoted him a
grade and will let him work at his own pace. He's been doing Kumon for 4
years, so he hasn't missed out on new math challenges (he's just started
algebra in Kumon level G). He'll be much happier next year, although he and
my daughters will have to get to grips with the concept of homework.
Nicole
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 16:47:32 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: on forgery
Percedol wrote:
) )But there is no 'European'
) )and, especially, no 'teutonic'. It's a big difference.
)
Peter S. replied:
I don't agree that this constitutes a big difference, but in any case
you're
) telling this to the wrong person. I didn't come up with either term;
) anthroposophists did. Remind me again: what does this have to do with
) forgery?
I am feeling confused about this "forgery" thread started by Percedol. I,
too, would appreciate an explanation as it seems a rather harsh analysis of
the document in question. I am following the thread with objective eyes and
I just do not see the need to use terms like "forgery."
If I were to make such a claim I would have plenty of evidence to back it
up. Please explain, Percedol.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:06:26 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: on forgery
walden wrote:
)
) Percedol wrote:
) ) )But there is no 'European'
) ) )and, especially, no 'teutonic'. It's a big difference.
) )
) Peter S. replied:
) I don't agree that this constitutes a big difference, but in any case
) you're
) ) telling this to the wrong person. I didn't come up with either term;
) ) anthroposophists did. Remind me again: what does this have to do with
) ) forgery?
)
) I am feeling confused about this "forgery" thread started by Percedol.
) I,
) too, would appreciate an explanation as it seems a rather harsh analysis
) of
) the document in question. I am following the thread with objective eyes
) and
) I just do not see the need to use terms like "forgery."
) If I were to make such a claim I would have plenty of evidence to back
) it
) up. Please explain, Percedol.
)
) -Walden
P:
Have you visited one of the three links I posted last time?
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/PS/Staudenmaier.html
This link saves the time of having to do all the work ex novo.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:22:35 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: on forgery
) )P:
) )I have an Italian translation of that cycle. I don't see anything wrong
) )with the content of lecture six.
)
) No, of course you don't. You believe in Steiner's theory of "root
) races",
) you agree with his description of "racial characteristics", you share
) his
) views on "the proper distribution of the races", you promote his
) teachings
) about "Race Spirits", and you embrace his ideas about "Aryans". The fact
)
) that your perspective on such matters is widespread within the
) contemporary
) anthroposophist movement is exactly what prompted me to write that
) article
) in the first place.
)
) For those who haven't yet had an opportunity to read lecture six (from
) which
) all of the quoted terms in the preceding paragraph are taken), here is
) small
) sample of the content that Percedol finds so appealing: Steiner writes
) here
) that "racial continuity through the blood-stream was of particular
) importance to the Semitic Hebrew people", and expounds on this theme as
) follows:
)
) "the Jahve forces from the Moon sphere meet and cooperate with the Mars
) Spirits and thus a special kind of modification arises, namely, the
) Semitic
) race. Here is the occult explanation for the origin of the Semites. The
) Semitic people are an example of a modification of collective humanity.
) Jahve or Jehovah shuts Himself off from the other Elohim and invests
) this
) people with a special character by cooperating with the Mars Spirits, in
)
) order to bring about a special modification of his people. You will now
) understand the peculiar character of the Semitic people and its
) mission."
)
) Many, many anthroposophists do not see anything wrong with these racial
) doctrines.
P:
because there is nothing wrong about it except for those who are so
intolerant towards the idea of mentioning anything containing the word
'race' that immediately turn it in their mind into the word 'racism'.
That's your problem, not mine!
It is interesting to note that today this tendency has gone so far that
scientists state that there are no races at all. Just by reading the
excerpt posted above it is clear that races would not originate from a
biological event, but rather as a spiritual influence.
Being racists is a different matter. I can see the differences but do
not discriminate. Each individual, being an I can relate to that same I
that is beyond race, people, nation, etc.
) )P:
) )If there were individuals who were siding with the nazis and practiced
) )biodynamic methods, and or followed A.
)
) That isn't an open question; there's no "if" involved here. And it
) wasn't
) merely "individuals", it was the official and acknowledged leadership of
) the
) biodynamic movement. Quite a few of the official and acknowledged
) leaders of
) the anthroposophical movement as a whole also sided with the Nazis. But
) to
) latter-day anthroposophists like Percedol, of course, this history of
) collaboration "does not mean anything." I rest my case.
P:
And the Vatican promoted the Inquisition, but that was not a Christian
thing!
A. and its founder have nothing to do with your allegations.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:28:43 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: New person
P:
Thank you for your answer. One more question:
What did you find about the alleged Montessori teaching of letting
children without discipline? It does not happen at all. How does it work
the relationship discipline/self-expression in the Montessori method?
) P:
) Are you saying that the teachers you met in the first place did NOT
) understand the Montessori method they were teaching?
) Absolutely! There are many "Montessori schools out there who do not have
) one Montessori certified teacher in them. The program that I am running
) at the moment had three teachers and a director all without any training
) before I came.
)
) If so, could you please expand a little on what was the actual attitude
)
) of that method? It is not about letting children express themselves
) freely?
) That's exactly what I was saying. I have experienced first hand how a
) method can be butchered. I have always wondered if that was what was
) happening at the Waldorf school where I student taught, yet I have never
) been able to have a decent conversation with an experienced Waldorf
) teacher. They always evade my questions. Also I said I LIKED the art,
) and am always looking for new ways to teach academics. From what I have
) heard, Waldorf has a great many kinesthetic and artistic techniques for
) teaching academic subjects. I would love to learn them.
P:
I would have to investigate more the W. method to express an opinion.
And then it may vary from school to school or in different countries or
even from teacher to teacher.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 01:20:38 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: on forgery
) P:
) Have you visited one of the three links I posted last time?
)
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/PS/Staudenmaier.html
)
) This link saves the time of having to do all the work ex novo.
Yes, thank-you. I have read the lengthy rebuttal some time ago. I thought,
however, that perhaps the reasons for the controversy might have more to do
with different interpretations than actual "forgery." I remember reading
Sune's site with great interest. I read it again tonight. A tremendous
amount of work and energy - and without the luxury of having English as a
mother tongue shows me the passion he feels toward this topic. Admirable -
but I still see no forgery though I must admit to some confusion while
trying to understand much of what Sune is trying to share. Perhaps I am not
overly perceptive. Why is Sune not on this list to discuss this matter?
That might help clear things up.
I wonder if you, Percedol, might be able to put in clear words - why you
believe "forgery" is the correct term? I am looking for clarity and do not
want to simply be perceived as being in one camp or the other.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:54:29 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: New person
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C3468E.953E1500
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I don't quite understand your question. Are you saying, " How can
Montessorians give their children freedom of choice and have
discipline at the same time?
One of the biggest problems I feel with our society is the
misunderstanding of what freedom means in general. Freedom is not
license. With our freedoms comes responsibilities. I am free to
play music at my house, but if I play it so loud that it interferes
with my neighbor's freedom to have silence, I can be arrested for
disturbing the peace. I have the freedom to own a car, but that
doesn't mean I can drive on the grass in my local playground, go the
wrong way on a one way street, or run someone over, even if for some
crazy reason they are standing in the middle of the road.
The same goes for a Montessori classroom. In fact we believe that it
is our responsibility to prepare the child to grow up to become a
thoughtful, respectful, responsible citizen of the world. In a
Montessori classroom freedom does not mean a "free for all". In my
trainings I explain that it really should be called, "freedom within
boundaries". In my 6 to 9 year old classroom, children get a
workplan on Monday. It states that there are certain things that
need to be done every day. (a journal entry, a short math facts
worksheet...) importantthings that need to been done by the end of
the week (a fraction job, two geometry jobs, 2 word skyscrapers, 2
grammar skyscrapers,...) Other things that need to be completed by
the end of the week (a geography, botany, physical science, biology,
history... job) and then they are free to do any work that they
choose. This work can be either on the shelves, in their mind, or the
finished workplan cabinet (which is full of educational games and
activities) Children must have at least 1 job completed by recess, 3
before lunch. Friday afternoon is always a fun activity, but only for
those who have finished their workplan. There are no exceptions
except 1) If you are absent I don't expect work for the days you were
gone, 2) If we have outside activities, guest speakers, whole class
activities, assemblies,... I do not expect work for those times, and
3) If you are involved in a large project and are really working
(usually research project or they get on a roll and just want to, oh,
say do 25 graph pictures in 4 quadrants) I will accept that, for a
while. Never for ever. You still have to learn the other things
whether you want to or not. (I still have to pay my taxes whether I
want to or not,.) Now remember, all workplans are adjusted to the
child so there is nothing too overwhelming that they can't get the
work done if they try. (If they are having problems I reevaluate the
expectations and determine if the work is too hard for them, if they
are having trouble focusing, or if they are just fooling around and I
make the appropriate adjustments.)
Their freedom comes into play, like I said in my last post, by
choosing the time they do the work and the materials (manipulatives)
they choose to do the work with. There are still expectations, and
there are definitely rules. A child is not free to misuse a material,
to bother their peers, damage the classroom, or to choose to do
nothing. To do so would be interfering with the freedom of others.
Something we teach our children from day one; respect.
One might ask, "If I am so strongly grounded in Montessori
Philosophy, why am I so interested in Waldorf techniques. The reason
is simple. I want to learn new ways to introduce topics or to foster
the study of them. Montessori materials are beautiful and very
graphic and sensorial in their explanation of concepts, but what we
are missing is the art and more kinesthetic activities. For example:
We read and compare myths in second and third grade. I have the
manipulatives to help a child make a Venn diagram comparing and
contrasting myths. I have other materials to help them understand
the geography and culture of the places where they are from, and I
have tools to help them write comparative essays on the different
myths (all second and third grade California standards, so please
don't get on my case about how Montessorians push children too fast.
Take that up with the California Board of Regents. Public Waldorf
schools would have to adhere to the same standards.) But aside from
handing them crayons and paper and telling them to draw a scene or
giving them cardboard, tissue paper and so on and having them make
dioramas from the myth, I have no way of integrating art into the
standard. Also, since I personally do not have a lot of artistic
techniques, and they are not taught to us at our Montessori
trainings, I would not know how to teach them different ways of
drawing/painting. (I do know that Waldorf teaches children to draw
from the inside out, as opposed to the outline in, but I don't know
how to do it myself.) These are all things I would LOVE to learn. ( I
did get my hands on some bees wax. I gave it to a group of students
once before I read a myth to them and they LOVED holding and
squeezing it while I read. Afterwards I told them that they could
make a character from the story out of the wax. Some did, but some
said, "I don't know how." I did my best to show them some ideas, but
since I really didn't have the skill, I didn't do it justice. It was
times like that that I wished I knew more about the Waldorf techniques.
----- Original Message -----
From: Percedol
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 10:28 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: New person
P:
Thank you for your answer. One more question:
What did you find about the alleged Montessori teaching of letting
children without discipline? It does not happen at all. How does it work
the relationship discipline/self-expression in the Montessori method?
) P:
) Are you saying that the teachers you met in the first place did NOT
) understand the Montessori method they were teaching?
) Absolutely! There are many "Montessori schools out there who do not have
) one Montessori certified teacher in them. The program that I am running
) at the moment had three teachers and a director all without any training
) before I came.
)
) If so, could you please expand a little on what was the actual attitude
)
) of that method? It is not about letting children express themselves
) freely?
) That's exactly what I was saying. I have experienced first hand how a
) method can be butchered. I have always wondered if that was what was
) happening at the Waldorf school where I student taught, yet I have never
) been able to have a decent conversation with an experienced Waldorf
) teacher. They always evade my questions. Also I said I LIKED the art,
) and am always looking for new ways to teach academics. From what I have
) heard, Waldorf has a great many kinesthetic and artistic techniques for
) teaching academic subjects. I would love to learn them.
P:
I would have to investigate more the W. method to express an opinion.
And then it may vary from school to school or in different countries or
even from teacher to teacher.
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1087
-- Topica Digest --
Re: New person
By dan dandugan.com
Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By dan dandugan.com
Re: New person
By Redwoodforest msn.com
RE: New person
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By Percedol netscape.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:51:18 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa De Thomas, you wrote:
)We read and compare myths in second and third grade. I have the
)manipulatives to help a child make a Venn diagram comparing and
)contrasting myths. I have other materials to help them understand
)the geography and culture of the places where they are from, and I
)have tools to help them write comparative essays on the different
)myths (all second and third grade California standards, so please
)don't get on my case about how Montessorians push children too fast.
)Take that up with the California Board of Regents. Public Waldorf
)schools would have to adhere to the same standards.)
Actually, California charter schools aren't required to meet
standards. The only feedback is the annual standardized tests. In the
past the public Waldorfs have gotten around that with parental
exemptions for the weaker students, but because of the abuse those
rules have been tightened up recently.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:21:47 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
Walden wrote,
)I am feeling confused about this "forgery" thread started by Percedol. I,
)too, would appreciate an explanation as it seems a rather harsh analysis of
)the document in question. I am following the thread with objective eyes and
)I just do not see the need to use terms like "forgery." If I were to
)make such a claim I would have plenty of evidence to back it
)up. Please explain, Percedol.
And Percedol replied,
)Have you visited one of the three links I posted last time?
)
)http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/PS/Staudenmaier.html
)
)This link saves the time of having to do all the work ex novo.
Not so fast, Percedol. -You- used the word "forgery" to describe
Staudenmaier's work, and now -you- must either justify your statement
or withdraw it with an apology. It is not sufficient to refer to
Sune's web site as an explanation of your position. I suggest you
apologize, since neither you nor Sune have presented evidence of
forgery.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:07:18 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: New person
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C3471E.DD3058B0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Interesting. In my district we have one charter school and three
special programs (GATE, Special Day Class, and Montessori) Being in
one of these programs just means not having to use the textbooks or
other district mandated materials and testing (they are REALLY into
benchmark testing at the moment. Evil, pure evil) But we are mandated
to teach to the standards even the Special Day Classes.
That's one of the problems with standardize testing - the games that
are played with it. For a long time we used the SAT - 9 which was
normed in Iowa. 5% of the population were second language learners,
were classified as "learning diabled" and were exempted. In my
school 85% of the population are second language learners. Of course
we weren't allowed to only test 15% of our students, so we have to
test them all, even the ones who arrive the day before from Mexico
and have never been in a school in their lives. (We had two this
year) Is it any wonder why our scores don't compare?
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Dugan
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:30 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa De Thomas, you wrote:
)We read and compare myths in second and third grade. I have the
)manipulatives to help a child make a Venn diagram comparing and
)contrasting myths. I have other materials to help them understand
)the geography and culture of the places where they are from, and I
)have tools to help them write comparative essays on the different
)myths (all second and third grade California standards, so please
)don't get on my case about how Montessorians push children too fast.
)Take that up with the California Board of Regents. Public Waldorf
)schools would have to adhere to the same standards.)
Actually, California charter schools aren't required to meet
standards. The only feedback is the annual standardized tests. In the
past the public Waldorfs have gotten around that with parental
exemptions for the weaker students, but because of the abuse those
rules have been tightened up recently.
-Dan Dugan
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:31:19 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: New person
Lysa De Thomas wrote:
) I don't quite understand your question. Are you saying, " How can
) Montessorians give their children freedom of choice and have discipline
) at the same time?
It was times like that that I wished I knew more about the Waldorf
techniques.
P:
You have answered to my question, thank you!
My suggestion about your longing to learn these techniques:
I suspect that if you side with the w-critics you might not get support
from those who could teach you what you are looking for.
When you can, go to an A. branch in California, talk to them and ask if
there are classes where you can learn that. Explain your reasons and
intentions. There may be books, too. Show your enthusiasm and maybe go
there several times, so that they may start to know you better.
Don't give up at the first attempt.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:03:20 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
P:
I guess that the basis for your warning is based solely on the idea that
I am simply giving a link to a web site without knowing wnything of the
subject.
Instead, i have P.S. article and the lecture series here with me.
Peter's article begins with :
"In June 1910 RS, the founder of A., began a speaking tour of Norway
with a lecture to a large and attentive audience in Oslo.
[As we now know the tour included only Oslo]
The lecture was titled "The mission of Individual European National
Souls in relation to Nordic-Germanic Mythology".
[That is the incorrect title of the series, not of a lecture - there is
no 'European' ]
In the Oslo lecture and throughout his Norwegian tour Steiner presented
his theory of 'national souls'.
[Here P. insists on this alleged Norwegian tour and his mentioning Oslo
suggests that it was held in different cities]
Steiner explained componentes of the 'germanic-nordic sub-race', the
world's most advanced ethnic group, which was in turn the vanguard of
the five historical root races'.
[There is no mention in the series of a 'germanic-nordic-sub-race',
neither it is mentioned that it constitutes the most advanced ethnic
group and it does not mention 'root-races'. This is completely made up]
This superior fifth root race, Steiner told his Oslo audience, was
naturally the 'Aryan race'.
[There is no mention of a' superior' fifth root race and when mentioning
the word 'aryan peoples' in lecture six, Steiner refers to 'anterior
Asia and europe, to the peoples called caucasians'. He says that these
peoples are determined through senses.
There is no speaking of an 'Aryan race'. ]
Later in his article -and this is unrelated to the series above
mentioned - P. writes that 'Steiner was unwilling toaccept a
brown-skinned Hindu lad as the next 'spitual master'.
[There is no reference to such a statement referring to the skin color
of Jiddu Krishnamurti from RS. There were totally different reasons,
i.e. that S. could not accept that The Christ Being could reincarnate at
all a second time. It was not because of a racist prejudice. That
statement in Peter's article is totally false.]
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) Walden wrote,
)
) )I am feeling confused about this "forgery" thread started by Percedol.
) )I,
) )too, would appreciate an explanation as it seems a rather harsh analysis
) )of
) )the document in question. I am following the thread with objective eyes
) )and
) )I just do not see the need to use terms like "forgery." If I were to
) )make such a claim I would have plenty of evidence to back it
) )up. Please explain, Percedol.
)
) And Percedol replied,
)
) )Have you visited one of the three links I posted last time?
) )
) )http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/PS/Staudenmaier.html
) )
) )This link saves the time of having to do all the work ex novo.
)
) Not so fast, Percedol. -You- used the word "forgery" to describe
) Staudenmaier's work, and now -you- must either justify your statement
) or withdraw it with an apology. It is not sufficient to refer to
) Sune's web site as an explanation of your position. I suggest you
) apologize, since neither you nor Sune have presented evidence of
) forgery.
)
) -Dan Dugan
) Moderator
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1088
-- Topica Digest --
Percedol on racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
facts and forgeries
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Percedol on racism
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: Percedol on racism
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: facts and forgeries
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:33:07 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Percedol on racism
Regarding Steiner's racial doctrines, Percedol writes:
)because there is nothing wrong about it except for those who are so
)intolerant towards the idea of mentioning anything containing the word
)'race' that immediately turn it in their mind into the word 'racism'.
)That's your problem, not mine!
It would indeed be a problem if I, or anybody else, believed that the mere
mention of the word "race" was racist. But nobody believes that, least of
all me. I use the word "race" constantly. Every day, thousands of people use
the word in non-racist ways. Steiner's book on 'national souls' isn't racist
because it includes the word "race"; it is racist because it assigns
specific cultural, moral, intellectual and physical characteristics to
specific racial groups, and ranks these "racial characters" in hierarchical
order. There is no such th