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-- Topica Digest --
Re: Anthroposophically Designed School
By audreyallison hotmail.com
Re: Anthroposophically Designed School
By antigonabaires hotmail.com
Re: Anthroposophically Designed School
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: antroposophy vs. holism
By hagenaar wxs.nl
RE: antroposophy vs. holism
By Diana.Winters verizon.net
Re: antroposophy vs. holism
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 08:30:38 -0800
From: "Audrey Allison" (audreyallison hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophically Designed School
The latest newsletter from my step-daughter's school brags about being the
only anthroposophically designed school in North America ... go figure ...
:)
Audrey Allison
5307 Timble Lane
Kelowna BC, V1W 4T9
(250) 764-2913
audreyallison hotmail.com
)From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics (waldorf-critics topica.com)
)Subject: From a RS College brochure
)Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 14:37:18 -0500
)
)
)
)Just going through some old papers and came across a few things I thought
)would be interesting to this group and might generate some discussion.
)
)In front of me is a brochure from Rudolf Steiner College, dated spring 2002
)(a year ago.) The pamphlet outlines various courses and workshops are
)available there, to teachers, teacher trainees and the general public.
)
)What strikes me as I read these offerings is how Anthroposophic they are!
)Reading this brochure, the tie between Waldorf schools and Anthroposophy
)are
)clear and unequivocal.
)
)Examples:
)
)* Foundations of Astrosophy - A New Star Wisdom
)The class description says, in part: "Astrosophy is based in Anthroposophy,
)Esoteric Christianity, and the renewal and further development of Star
)Wisdom contained in Astronomy and Astrology.
)
)* Anthroposophical Classes
)These classes include:
)* Natal Charts: an introduction to Astronomy and Astrology in light of
)Anthroposophy. With the Goethean Studies Program.
)* Star Wisdom Intensive: An overview of Planetary and Human Evolution in
)the
)light of Anthroposophy.
)* Drawing the Seven Planetary Seals and the Human and Planetary Evolution
)* Karma and Reincarnation: an in-depth study of Rudolf Steiner's
)Manifestations of Karma
)* Christology: An in-depth study of the stages of incarnation of Christ in
)the light of Anthroposophy.
)
)Other offerings include:
)
)Spring Conference: Discovering the Spiritual Destiny of America/the Land of
)the Holy Spirit
)
)* International Arts in Architecture Symposium II: The Seven Arts As a
)Sacramental Path Toward Easter (pictured here is a seven-pointed star
)inside
)a circle, with each point of the star hitting a certain word, including
)eurythmy, drama, painting, music, architecture, etc. along w/various occult
)symbols.
)
)==^================================================================
)You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
)New threads are always welcome.
)
)
_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 00:16:09 -0300
From: (antigonabaires hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophically Designed School
One of the Waldorf schools in Argentina was built according to the
principles of "organic architecture" (i.e. according to anthroposophy).
Among the many unusual features is the complete (and I do mean "complete")
absence of right angles. The construction is certainly quite weird but still
very interesting. I ignore what evil influence can right angles have on
children.
Agustina C. Eiff
Buenos Aires, Argentina
----- Original Message -----
From: "Audrey Allison" (audreyallison hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: Anthroposophically Designed School
) The latest newsletter from my step-daughter's school brags about being the
) only anthroposophically designed school in North America ... go figure ...
) :)
)
)
) Audrey Allison
) 5307 Timble Lane
) Kelowna BC, V1W 4T9
) (250) 764-2913
) audreyallison hotmail.com
)
)
)
)
)
) )From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
) )Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) )To: waldorf-critics (waldorf-critics topica.com)
) )Subject: From a RS College brochure
) )Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 14:37:18 -0500
) )
) )
) )
) )Just going through some old papers and came across a few things I thought
) )would be interesting to this group and might generate some discussion.
) )
) )In front of me is a brochure from Rudolf Steiner College, dated spring
2002
) )(a year ago.) The pamphlet outlines various courses and workshops are
) )available there, to teachers, teacher trainees and the general public.
) )
) )What strikes me as I read these offerings is how Anthroposophic they are!
) )Reading this brochure, the tie between Waldorf schools and Anthroposophy
) )are
) )clear and unequivocal.
) )
) )Examples:
) )
) )* Foundations of Astrosophy - A New Star Wisdom
) )The class description says, in part: "Astrosophy is based in
Anthroposophy,
) )Esoteric Christianity, and the renewal and further development of Star
) )Wisdom contained in Astronomy and Astrology.
) )
) )* Anthroposophical Classes
) )These classes include:
) )* Natal Charts: an introduction to Astronomy and Astrology in light of
) )Anthroposophy. With the Goethean Studies Program.
) )* Star Wisdom Intensive: An overview of Planetary and Human Evolution in
) )the
) )light of Anthroposophy.
) )* Drawing the Seven Planetary Seals and the Human and Planetary Evolution
) )* Karma and Reincarnation: an in-depth study of Rudolf Steiner's
) )Manifestations of Karma
) )* Christology: An in-depth study of the stages of incarnation of Christ
in
) )the light of Anthroposophy.
) )
) )Other offerings include:
) )
) )Spring Conference: Discovering the Spiritual Destiny of America/the Land
of
) )the Holy Spirit
) )
) )* International Arts in Architecture Symposium II: The Seven Arts As a
) )Sacramental Path Toward Easter (pictured here is a seven-pointed star
) )inside
) )a circle, with each point of the star hitting a certain word, including
) )eurythmy, drama, painting, music, architecture, etc. along w/various
occult
) )symbols.
) )
) )==^================================================================
) )You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic.
) )New threads are always welcome.
) )
) )
)
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
) http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:14:22 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophically Designed School
That's interesting. I just spent an hour reading through the Parent Handbook
from our former Waldorf School (for the 1999-2000) school year, and I could
find only ONE reference to Anthroposophy. The pages and pages of
introduction about what a Waldorf school is did not make a single mention of
Anthroposophy; the only time the word was used, that I could find, was under
a section about Therapeutic Eurythmy (an oxymoron if there ever was one!) In
that section, a sentence says something about an evaluation by an
anthroposophic physician.
That's it, and I am afraid the story is the same for many Waldorf schools.
Things would be much better all around if Waldorf schools would simply own
what they are, which is Anthroposophical schools. You can be sure the
teachers consider the schools Anthroposophic amongst themselves; one cannot
help but wonder why they feel the need to conceal this fact from parents.
Lisa
) The latest newsletter from my step-daughter's school brags about being the
) only anthroposophically designed school in North America ... go figure ...
) :)
)
)
) Audrey Allison
) 5307 Timble Lane
) Kelowna BC, V1W 4T9
) (250) 764-2913
) audreyallison hotmail.com
)
)
)
)
)
))From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
))Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
))To: waldorf-critics (waldorf-critics topica.com)
))Subject: From a RS College brochure
))Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 14:37:18 -0500
))
))
))
))Just going through some old papers and came across a few things I thought
))would be interesting to this group and might generate some discussion.
))
))In front of me is a brochure from Rudolf Steiner College, dated spring 2002
))(a year ago.) The pamphlet outlines various courses and workshops are
))available there, to teachers, teacher trainees and the general public.
))
))What strikes me as I read these offerings is how Anthroposophic they are!
))Reading this brochure, the tie between Waldorf schools and Anthroposophy
))are
))clear and unequivocal.
))
))Examples:
))
))* Foundations of Astrosophy - A New Star Wisdom
))The class description says, in part: "Astrosophy is based in Anthroposophy,
))Esoteric Christianity, and the renewal and further development of Star
))Wisdom contained in Astronomy and Astrology.
))
))* Anthroposophical Classes
))These classes include:
))* Natal Charts: an introduction to Astronomy and Astrology in light of
))Anthroposophy. With the Goethean Studies Program.
))* Star Wisdom Intensive: An overview of Planetary and Human Evolution in
))the
))light of Anthroposophy.
))* Drawing the Seven Planetary Seals and the Human and Planetary Evolution
))* Karma and Reincarnation: an in-depth study of Rudolf Steiner's
))Manifestations of Karma
))* Christology: An in-depth study of the stages of incarnation of Christ in
))the light of Anthroposophy.
))
))Other offerings include:
))
))Spring Conference: Discovering the Spiritual Destiny of America/the Land of
))the Holy Spirit
))
))* International Arts in Architecture Symposium II: The Seven Arts As a
))Sacramental Path Toward Easter (pictured here is a seven-pointed star
))inside
))a circle, with each point of the star hitting a certain word, including
))eurythmy, drama, painting, music, architecture, etc. along w/various occult
))symbols.
))
))==^================================================================
))You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
))New threads are always welcome.
))
))
)
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
) http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
) New threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 08:01:49 +0200
From: Edith Hagenaar (hagenaar wxs.nl)
Subject: Re: antroposophy vs. holism
Hi Sharon,
Thanks for your answers. I know Ant. is similar to holism, that is
why we choose the school in the first place. Now, to be able to take
my son out, I need to prove the differences. So yes, I do believe in
some things like reincarnation. I just hoped there is somebody
somewhere who can give my some more differences!
Bye,
--
Edith Hagenaar
http://www.wahm.nl - work at home moms
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 00:25:00 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: antroposophy vs. holism
Edith wrote:
)I know Ant. is similar to holism, that is why we choose the school in
the )first place. Now, to be able to take my son out, I need to prove
the )differences. So yes, I do believe in some things like
reincarnation. I just )hoped there is somebody somewhere who can give my
some more differences!
Edith, I think we'd really have to know more about your own views to get
at where anthroposophy might differ. For instance there are various
versions of reincarnation and karma, I understand the Hindu version is
quite different from anthroposophy. Steiner's is an explicitly punitive
version of reincarnation/karma - at least that is how I would
characterize it. We are supposed to be making up for mistakes made in
past lives. Illnesses, accidents, injuries are all viewed as karmic
compensations in anthroposophy. There were posts here on this several
months ago; I could probably find them if this might be helpful. I think
this is why people were asking you to define what you meant by "holism."
Also, I'm curious about how detailed a presentation you will want or be
allowed to make to a court about how your views or values differ from
anthroposophy. If you gave us some details like this, about your own
views and what you initially thought anthroposophy was - why it appealed
to you enough to put your child in a school based on anthroposophy - I
think you might get answers more focused on what you need.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:52:42 -0800
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
Subject: Re: antroposophy vs. holism
Edith,
Wouldn't it just be easier to have your child tested by a qualified
educational psychologist? If your son's IQ scores show he has a mental age,
let's say, 7 years ahead of his actual age, then all you would have to do is
say to the courts,
"Oops, this method of education moves too slowly for a kid like mine - they
don't teach reading/writing/higher math to their students until much later
than other schools do. But when I enrolled him I didn't know he had an IQ of
160+, so how could I know that the school could not possibly provide for his
special learning needs?"
You just tell them you have new information which changes things. Easy. :-)
Sarina McDonald
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1008
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Anthroposophically Designed School
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: steve walden
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: antroposophy vs. holism
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: antroposophy vs. holism
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Anthroposophically Designed School
By spectmore yahoo.com
important meeting
By hagenaar wxs.nl
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:21:05 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophically Designed School
) The latest newsletter from my step-daughter's school brags about being the
) only anthroposophically designed school in North America ... go figure ...
) :)
) Audrey Allison
Not only is Anthroposophy *in* the classroom... Anthroposophy *is* the
classroom. I guess they incarnate better that way....
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:24:37 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: steve walden
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--Boundary_(ID_ksr7le2cDS5hNyk5/c+6mA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Annie,
Your English is fine - aucun problem! I must admit, though... I am
confused. What "project" is waldorf education? Can you explain?
Merci.
-Walden
Annie wrote:
probably my english isn t that good afterall... the project is
waldorf education...that s what I find weird because these schools
usually have a more particular project like sports or something like
that...I just don' t get why it isn t qualified as a normal
alternative school...
am I confusing everyone?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:31:13 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: antroposophy vs. holism
Edith wrote:
So yes, I do believe in some things like reincarnation.
Walden: This is a good start if you take the Waldorf Path. This one
element, IMO, must be clearly stated at the first meeting with parents. "We
are helping to incarnate your child because we believe in reincarnation a la
Rudolf Steiner. Please read this material by Steiner and other
Waldorf/Anthroposophy teachers before you give us any money and more
importantly... your child."
I am curious, Edith - are you *interested* in reincarnation or do you really
*believe?* If you believe - how did this belief come to be? I hope I'm not
intruding... I am curious.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 19:35:39 -0500
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: antroposophy vs. holism
on 4/2/03 5:31 PM, walden at awaldenpond shaw.ca wrote:
) Edith wrote:
) So yes, I do believe in some things like reincarnation.
Sharon: Which model of reincarnation do you subscribe to Edith,
Theosophical, Rosicrucian, Hindu, Psychianan, Scientologist,...the list is
long? Do you think "the spiritually advanced" will reincarnate on earth in
core groups spread around the earth as Steiner taught, and that these groups
will instruct the rest of humanity in what they may "think, feel, will and
do? Do you believe in Atlantis? Do you believe that Manu led "the advanced"
out of Atlantis? Do you believe in future prophesied periods called Jupiter,
Venus and Vulcan? Do you believe there will be a war of all against all? Do
you believe there will be a Sixth Epoch? Or that humans have an etheric,
astral, I and physical body? Your version of reincarnation might very well
be quite different from the Anthroposophic perspective.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 01:07:32 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Anthroposophically Designed School
But contemporary and 'modern' - if one agrees that is the period before
contemporary ; ) - architects have long struggled with attempting to
create organic structures absent of right angles. Some, such as Paolo
Soleri have some very real connections to the ideas of Steiner. Others
long before even have strong ties to the ancient rock hewn carved
structures of Turkey, et al with no real 'spiritual' ties other than
attempts to make things which reflect the natural orb on which we live.
(Please excuse if there are "flat earth' supporters)
Personally, I find Steiner architecture naive at best and really
unimportant. Public schools and common chapels have the same intent but
better execution.
Best, J
antigonabaires hotmail.com wrote:
) One of the Waldorf schools in Argentina was built according to the
) principles of "organic architecture" (i.e. according to anthroposophy).
) Among the many unusual features is the complete (and I do mean
) "complete")
) absence of right angles.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 07:56:24 +0200
From: Edith Hagenaar (hagenaar wxs.nl)
Subject: important meeting
Dear all,
today I have my meeting with the civil servant of our city who will
decide whether he will tolerate us taking our child out of school or
prosecute us. Thanks for the information and answers to questions I
received from you all (on giftednes & Waldord and holism &
antroposophy). As you can see, I had no time to read Steiner (apart
from the things I had read before) so I took some quotes out of the
website and your emails to use.
So, wish me luck! I will let you know this afternoon what happened.
--
Edith Hagenaar
http://www.wahm.nl - work at home moms
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1009
-- Topica Digest --
Re: steve walden
By anitamorin hotmail.com
walden again
By anitamorin hotmail.com
Re: walden again
By audreyallison hotmail.com
Re: Anthroposophically Designed School
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: important meeting
By audreyallison hotmail.com
Admin: web counter 112,356
By dan dandugan.com
Re: walden again
By dan dandugan.com
Re: walden again
By anitamorin hotmail.com
Re: walden again
By dan dandugan.com
Admin: Upcominf owntime (sic)
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Sun Temple / was walden again
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: primary Steiner references on left-handedness
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: primary Steiner references on left-handedness
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 13:07:50 +0000
From: "Annie Mathieu" (anitamorin hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: steve walden
(html)(div style='background-color:')(DIV)
(P)(BR)that is exactly the problem I can t resolve!!! the project is
teaching kids waldorf way...I think that s what I understood of it!
probably, it doesn t meet the criterias for being a alternative
school (always in public system )so they didn t know in what
category of school it was fitting into so they choose the
one " school with a project" !(BR)(BR)Annie (/P)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)>From: walden (AWALDENPOND SHAW.CA)
(DIV)(/DIV)>Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
(DIV)(/DIV)>To: waldorf-critics topica.com
(DIV)(/DIV)>Subject: Re: steve walden
(DIV)(/DIV)>Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:24:37 -0800
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>Annie,
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>Your English is fine - aucun problem! I must admit,
though... I am confused. What "project" is waldorf education? Can you
explain? Merci.
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>-Walden
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>Annie wrote:
(DIV)(/DIV)>probably my english isn t that good afterall... the
project is waldorf education...that s what I find weird because these
schools usually have a more particular project like sports or
something like that...I just don' t get why it isn t qualified as a
normal alternative school...
(DIV)(/DIV)>am I confusing everyone?
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>==^================================================================
(DIV)(/DIV)>You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here,
no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)(/div)(br clear=all)(hr)MSN 8 with (a
href="http://g.msn.com/8HMZENCA/2740")e-mail virus protection
service: (/a) 2 months FREE*
(/html)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 13:34:55 +0000
From: "Annie Mathieu" (anitamorin hotmail.com)
Subject: walden again
(html)(div style='background-color:')(DIV)
(P)don t know why I am adressing my mails to particular people, it
just feels more personnal. Ok, as I was telling you guys, I have done
some research here in Quebec (still very incomplete!) cause I am a
journalism student and was curious about waldorf school. A friend of
a friend is being trained at the moment and it all started from there
(and from the National Post article). There is one school in Chambly
that did the front page of the newspaper here a couple of years ago
and when I tried to talk to them, I was "blocked" by a parent
commitee....the lady said she didn t wanna talk to any
journalists...so I ve done many effort to get in touch with the
director (cause they are public school, they need a director) and she
said she was sorry for the answer I got, that It was bad publicity
and that they were approved by MEQ (Ministere Education du Quebec)
and UNESCO...etc...but I still had to write down the questions before
the interview so she could discuss them with a group of !
parents!!!!!!!!!wow!(BR)For the private school, it was different but
I couldn t go to the school apart from when they were doing a group
visit! AND there is in MOntreal a group called INFO CULT-ressource
centre on cultic thinking...their ex director (famous here because he
would one of the only expert that could talk about cult like Ordre du
Temple Solaire and other groups) so this guy is writting a book
about waldorf school..it should be available soon.(BR)(/P)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)(BR)(BR)(BR)Annie
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)>From: walden (AWALDENPOND SHAW.CA)
(DIV)(/DIV)>Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
(DIV)(/DIV)>To: waldorf-critics topica.com
(DIV)(/DIV)>Subject: Re: antroposophy vs. holism
(DIV)(/DIV)>Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:31:13 -0800
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>Edith wrote:
(DIV)(/DIV)>So yes, I do believe in some things like reincarnation.
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>Walden: This is a good start if you take the Waldorf
Path. This one
(DIV)(/DIV)>element, IMO, must be clearly stated at the first
meeting with parents. "We
(DIV)(/DIV)>are helping to incarnate your child because we believe
in reincarnation a la
(DIV)(/DIV)>Rudolf Steiner. Please read this material by Steiner and other
(DIV)(/DIV)>Waldorf/Anthroposophy teachers before you give us any
money and more
(DIV)(/DIV)>importantly... your child."
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>I am curious, Edith - are you *interested* in
reincarnation or do you really
(DIV)(/DIV)>*believe?* If you believe - how did this belief come
to be? I hope I'm not
(DIV)(/DIV)>intruding... I am curious.
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>-Walden
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>==^================================================================
(DIV)(/DIV)>You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here,
no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)(/div)(br clear=all)(hr)The new (a
href="http://g.msn.com/8HMZENCA/2737")MSN 8: (/a) smart spam
protection and 2 months FREE*
(/html)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 08:07:42 -0800
From: "Audrey Allison" (audreyallison hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: walden again
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_315e_21f0_3d21
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keep in touch about the book. I tried to research him on the internet but
everything was in French ... and OUCH ... my french is poor ... even after
years of it in school!
Thanks ... Audrey
)From: Annie Mathieu (anitamorin hotmail.com)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: walden again
)Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 13:34:55 +0000
)
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To: waldorf-critics topica.com
From: Annie Mathieu (anitamorin hotmail.com)
Subject: walden again
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 13:34:55 +0000
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(html)(div style='background-color:')(DIV)
(P)don t know why I am adressing my mails to particular people, it
just feels more personnal. Ok, as I was telling you guys, I have done
some research here in Quebec (still very incomplete!) cause I am a
journalism student and was curious about waldorf school. A friend of
a friend is being trained at the moment and it all started from there
(and from the National Post article). There is one school in Chambly
that did the front page of the newspaper here a couple of years ago
and when I tried to talk to them, I was "blocked" by a parent
commitee....the lady said she didn t wanna talk to any
journalists...so I ve done many effort to get in touch with the
director (cause they are public school, they need a director) and she
said she was sorry for the answer I got, that It was bad publicity
and that they were approved by MEQ (Ministere Education du Quebec)
and UNESCO...etc...but I still had to write down the questions before
the interview so she could discuss them with a group of !
parents!!!!!!!!!wow!(BR)For the private school, it was different but
I couldn t go to the school apart from when they were doing a group
visit! AND there is in MOntreal a group called INFO CULT-ressource
centre on cultic thinking...their ex director (famous here because he
would one of the only expert that could talk about cult like Ordre du
Temple Solaire and other groups) so this guy is writting a book
about waldorf school..it should be available soon.(BR)(/P)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)(BR)(BR)(BR)Annie
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)>From: walden (AWALDENPOND SHAW.CA)
(DIV)(/DIV)>Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
(DIV)(/DIV)>To: waldorf-critics topica.com
(DIV)(/DIV)>Subject: Re: antroposophy vs. holism
(DIV)(/DIV)>Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:31:13 -0800
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>Edith wrote:
(DIV)(/DIV)>So yes, I do believe in some things like reincarnation.
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>Walden: This is a good start if you take the Waldorf
Path. This one
(DIV)(/DIV)>element, IMO, must be clearly stated at the first
meeting with parents. "We
(DIV)(/DIV)>are helping to incarnate your child because we believe
in reincarnation a la
(DIV)(/DIV)>Rudolf Steiner. Please read this material by Steiner and other
(DIV)(/DIV)>Waldorf/Anthroposophy teachers before you give us any
money and more
(DIV)(/DIV)>importantly... your child."
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>I am curious, Edith - are you *interested* in
reincarnation or do you really
(DIV)(/DIV)>*believe?* If you believe - how did this belief come
to be? I hope I'm not
(DIV)(/DIV)>intruding... I am curious.
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>-Walden
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>==^================================================================
(DIV)(/DIV)>You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here,
no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)(/div)(br clear=all)(hr)The new (a
href="http://g.msn.com/8HMZENCA/2737")MSN 8: (/a) smart spam
protection and 2 months FREE*
(PRE)==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.(/PRE)
(/html)
------=_NextPart_000_315e_21f0_3d21--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 11:05:10 -0500
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophically Designed School
on 4/2/03 8:07 PM, spectmore yahoo.com at spectmore yahoo.com wrote:
)
) Personally, I find Steiner architecture naive at best and really
) unimportant. Public schools and common chapels have the same intent but
) better execution.
Sharon: Reminds me of a meeting I attended. Some Anthroposophists had
brought in an organic architect to roust up support for the school's dream,
which was to build an Anthro-correct structure to house the school in the
future. I was appalled by the examples shown, (they were hideous) and I
advised that our school should find other architects before we made our
choice (G) (little did I know in those days (G)). At the time I didn't
understand that there was an Anthroposophic subtext, I thought they were
just after good design! I didn't even know about the first and second
Goetheanum, nor had I seen pictures of Steiner's Rosicrucian temples. In
those days I did not know that Steiner was a religious leader...I thought he
was a scientist, educator and philosopher (G).
There's a Waldorf school in Sweden (I think it is) that actually does have
nice design. For some reason, it has right angles. When Waldorfers would go
on about things having to be rounded I'd always say why? (G) They would say
"it's natural", and I'd say "so are right angles! Ever seen a salt crystal?"
I think Anthro buildings have rounded corners so that they can attract
certain beings in the cosmos and radiate other forces out(G).
I think the first Goetheanum looked like a German helmet. It was a
monstrosity in my opinion, but never-the-less, quite amazing. I'm sorry it
burnt down. I'm just not a fan of Anthroposophic aesthetic.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 08:08:46 -0800
From: "Audrey Allison" (audreyallison hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: important meeting
I hope all goes well for you. I can't imagine having to go through that to
make a choice about your own children and lives.
Audrey Allison
)From: Edith Hagenaar (hagenaar wxs.nl)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: important meeting
)Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 07:56:24 +0200
)
)Dear all,
)
)today I have my meeting with the civil servant of our city who will decide
)whether he will tolerate us taking our child out of school or prosecute us.
)Thanks for the information and answers to questions I received from you all
)(on giftednes & Waldord and holism & antroposophy). As you can see, I had
)no time to read Steiner (apart from the things I had read before) so I took
)some quotes out of the website and your emails to use.
)
)So, wish me luck! I will let you know this afternoon what happened.
)--
)Edith Hagenaar
)http://www.wahm.nl - work at home moms
)
)==^================================================================
)You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
)New threads are always welcome.
)
)
_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:28:56 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: web counter 112,356
Sorry, I missed checking the web counter on March first.
On April 1, 2003, the PLANS web site had registered 112,356 visitors
since August 12, 1996. (Visitors, not hits, repeats on the same day
are not counted. Thanks, Web-Counter: http://www.digits.com.)
We had 6345 visitors in the last 60 days, averaging 106 per day. This
is an increase again, 111% of January, which was itself a high figure.
Hit counters give much higher but less meaningful numbers, because
they count every page and image viewed. The hits on our site in the
months of February and March, 2003, totaled 393,459, averaging 6558
per day, a big increase.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 10:52:46 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: walden again
Annie, you wrote,
)AND there is in MOntreal a group called INFO CULT-ressource centre
)on cultic thinking...their ex director (famous here because he would
)one of the only expert that could talk about cult like Ordre du
)Temple Solaire and other groups) so this guy is writting a book
)about waldorf school..it should be available soon.
Is that Yves Casgrain?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 20:33:39 +0000
From: "Annie Mathieu" (anitamorin hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: walden again
(html)(div style='background-color:')(DIV)
(P)(BR)yes,its him, why?(/P)
(P)(BR) (/P)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)(BR)(BR)(BR)Annie
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(/DIV)>From: Dan Dugan (DAN DANDUGAN.COM)
(DIV)(/DIV)>Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
(DIV)(/DIV)>To: waldorf-critics topica.com
(DIV)(/DIV)>Subject: Re: walden again
(DIV)(/DIV)>Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 10:52:46 -0800
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>Annie, you wrote,
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>>AND there is in MOntreal a group called INFO
CULT-ressource centre
(DIV)(/DIV)>>on cultic thinking...their ex director (famous
here because he
(DIV)(/DIV)>>would one of the only expert that could talk about
cult like Ordre
(DIV)(/DIV)>>du Temple Solaire and other groups) so this guy is
writting a book
(DIV)(/DIV)>>about waldorf school..it should be available soon.
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>Is that Yves Casgrain?
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>-Dan Dugan
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>==^================================================================
(DIV)(/DIV)>You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here,
no matter how
(DIV)(/DIV)>basic. New threads are always welcome.
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)>
(DIV)(/DIV)(/div)(br clear=all)(hr)Protect your PC - (a
href="http://g.msn.com/8HMXENCA/2755")Click here (/a) for McAfee.com
VirusScan Online
(/html)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 18:58:41 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: walden again
Annie Mathieu, you wrote:
)yes,its him, why?
He came to San Francisco to do research in the PLANS library last year.
-Dan Dugan
) )Annie, you wrote,
) )
) ))AND there is in MOntreal a group called INFO CULT-ressource centre
) ))on cultic thinking...their ex director (famous here because he
) ))would one of the only expert that could talk about cult like Ordre
) ))du Temple Solaire and other groups) so this guy is writting a book
) ))about waldorf school..it should be available soon.
) )
) )Is that Yves Casgrain?
) )
) )-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 16:51:14 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: Upcominf owntime (sic)
Hello,
We would like to let you as a Topica Exchange List Owner know that
the Topica Web site will be unavailable for approximately 3 hours
this Saturday, April 5, 2003 beginning at 9:00 am PST (16:00 GMT).
During this time, we'll be making system improvements to ensure that
we continue to support your needs.
All functionality and data will be restored immediately after the
maintenance period.
Thank you for your patience as we make these improvements.
Sincerely,
Topica Support
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:13:21 -0500
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Sun Temple / was walden again
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--MS_Mac_OE_3132292401_213960_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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on 4/3/03 3:33 PM, Annie Mathieu at anitamorin hotmail.com wrote:
)
))AND there is in MOntreal a group called INFO CULT-ressource centre
))on cultic thinking...their ex director (famous here because he
))would one of the only expert that could talk about cult like Ordre
))du Temple Solaire and other groups) so this guy is writting a book
))about waldorf school..it should be available soon.
Sharon: When I took my class on cults and New religious movements I was
fascinated to learn that the Order of the Solar Temple was a Rosicrucian
group, like Anthroposophy is. I was also intrigued to learn that the Solar
Temple was based in Switzerland, (the world headquarters and Spiritual
Center for Anthroposophy is located in Dornach, Switzerland). I doubt that
the two groups are connected in any way other than theology, but who knows?
That's the problem with secret societies.
There's an Anthro. book called "Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner" by John
Fletcher which is my favorite Anthro. book I own. In it, there are some
pictures of Steiner's Apocalyptic Seals, Planetary Seals, Rosicrucian
temples, Goetheanums and stills from his mystery dramas, including a scene
with a backdrop depicting Steiner's Sun Temple. Here's a "poetic excerpt"
from scene XI, "The Sun Temple" from one of his mystery dramas:
Theodora: "From out of your heart
There looms a sheen of light
A human image springs from it,
And words can now be heard
Which flow from this same human form.
'Tis so they sound:
I have now won myself
The power to reach the light."
My friend, oh trust yourself!
'Tis you, yourself, shall speak these words
When once your time shall be fulfilled. (Steiner, p. 133.
Truth.Wrought.Words and other Verses. Anthroposophic Press, Spring Valley,
NY 1979).
Anthroposophist, Bradford Riley wrote a paper entitled-- "Lord of the Rings:
a Study in New Mystery Centers." In his paper he said that the first
Goetheanum, (the wooden Anthro. Temple that burnt down), has been taken into
the etheric region of our earth and become:
?[T]he beacon Sun Temple for the Michael School as souls seek to incarnate
on the earth; or as they are born again back into the spiritual world at
death. It acts as a weigh (sic) station to gather forces for the coming
reincarnation and receive fruits brought from a life well wrought.
Riley claims that this etheric temple is also "a place to journey to, or be
invited to, when on the path of initiation here on earth" (Riley, p.1).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 17:07:44 +0000
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: primary Steiner references on left-handedness
John over at OpenWaldorf.com was asking in one of his forums (Academics and
Curriculum) for primary Steiner references on left-handedness. I checked the
archives here, but could only find secondary references about karmic
weaknesses. He was also wondering if anyone had experiences of left-handed
children being forced to switch in Waldorf. My left-handed daughter hasn't
had a problem writing left-handed, although she's learned to knit
right-handed (neither her handwork teacher nor I can teach left-handed
knitting). Does anyone have anything they'd like to add? If so they can
either post directly in the Academics and Curriculum forum at OpenWaldorf
or, if they don't want to be involved in yet another Waldorf environment,
they can post it here and I'll formulate a reply for him.
Nicole
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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:36:10 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: primary Steiner references on left-handedness
) John over at OpenWaldorf.com was asking in one of his forums (Academics
and
) Curriculum) for primary Steiner references on left-handedness. I checked
the
) archives here, but could only find secondary references about karmic
) weaknesses. He was also wondering if anyone had experiences of left-handed
) children being forced to switch in Waldorf. My left-handed daughter hasn't
) had a problem writing left-handed, although she's learned to knit
) right-handed (neither her handwork teacher nor I can teach left-handed
) knitting). Does anyone have anything they'd like to add? If so they can
) either post directly in the Academics and Curriculum forum at OpenWaldorf
) or, if they don't want to be involved in yet another Waldorf environment,
) they can post it here and I'll formulate a reply for him.
)
) Nicole
We went through that some time ago here. Many of us had kids who were
forced to switch from left to right in Waldorf. I thought my children were
kidding when I heard about it. It was difficult for my kids (two left
handers) as they thought they were different and bad or wrong. Confusing
for a child. We talked about it with more than one teacher and told them
that we would not support this old fashioned custom. At the time I had NO
IDEA it had to do with Anthroposophy or any other occult belief system. Our
kids refused to switch and they were eventually allowed to write and draw
with left hands. Another case of "they must tell parents of this oddity
prior to families hopping on board the Magical Mystery Ship."
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1010
-- Topica Digest --
Re: primary Steiner references on left-handedness
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: primary Steiner references on left-handedness
By alice.javanet rcn.com
Re: was handedness - switching to pick and choose doctrine...
By alice.javanet rcn.com
Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with relig
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
Re: was handedness - switching to pick and choose doctrine...
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 07:45:06 -0500
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: primary Steiner references on left-handedness
on 4/4/03 12:07 PM, Nicole Foss at nmfoss hotmail.com wrote:
) John over at OpenWaldorf.com was asking in one of his forums (Academics and
) Curriculum) for primary Steiner references on left-handedness. I checked the
) archives here, but could only find secondary references about karmic
) weaknesses. He was also wondering if anyone had experiences of left-handed
) children being forced to switch in Waldorf. My left-handed daughter hasn't
) had a problem writing left-handed, although she's learned to knit
) right-handed (neither her handwork teacher nor I can teach left-handed
) knitting). Does anyone have anything they'd like to add? If so they can
) either post directly in the Academics and Curriculum forum at OpenWaldorf
) or, if they don't want to be involved in yet another Waldorf environment,
) they can post it here and I'll formulate a reply for him.
)
) Nicole
There's a section on the Bob and Nancy site about this, (probably what you
already have). Steiner taught that before the age of nine children,
generally, should be broken of left handedness. Some Waldorf teachers
attempt to change children?s dominant hand in order to help them in future
incarnations. This occurred at our ex-school. A friend of mine's child was
left-handed and the teacher wanted to switch her. The teacher sent home a
flyer informing parents of lefties that she would be working with left
handed kids to change their dominant hands. When my friend told me this I
was very confused, and wondered "Isn't that frowned upon nowadays?" (But
Waldorfers would say that Waldorf is so new and in future all schools would
be like Waldorf (G) Boy was I gullible (G)). Unfortunately, I don't have a
copy of the letter. Bob and Nancy quote from some Steiner books that mention
the left hand thingy, you could track down those Steiner books.
Steiner: The phenomenon of left-handedness is clearly karmic, and, in
connection with karma, it is one of karmic weakness. Allow me to give an
example: A person who was overworked in their previous life, so that they
did too much, not only physically or intellectually, but in general,
spiritually, within their soul or feeling, will enter the succeeding life
with an intense weakness.
Steiner, R. (1923). Conferences with Waldorf school teachers. (GA 300a,b,c.)
Child development, left handed cross-dominance. Remarks by Rudolf Steiner on
left-handedness from May 25, 1923. (R. F. Lathe & N. Parsons
Whittaker,Trans.). Retrieved March, 3, 2003, from www.bobnancy.com (click on
Waldorf then Developing Child).
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 09:53:53 -0500
From: Al's stuff (alice.javanet rcn.com)
Subject: Re: primary Steiner references on left-handedness
)snips(
) There's a section on the Bob and Nancy site about this, (probably what you
) already have). Steiner taught that before the age of nine children,
) generally, should be broken of left handedness. Some Waldorf teachers
) attempt to change children?s dominant hand in order to help them in future
) incarnations. This occurred at our ex-school. A friend of mine's child was
) left-handed and the teacher wanted to switch her. The teacher sent home a
) flyer informing parents of lefties that she would be working with left
) handed kids to change their dominant hands. When my friend told me this I
) was very confused, and wondered "Isn't that frowned upon nowadays?" (But
) Waldorfers would say that Waldorf is so new and in future all schools would
) be like Waldorf (G) Boy was I gullible (G)). Unfortunately, I don't have a
) copy of the letter. Bob and Nancy quote from some Steiner books that mention
) the left hand thingy, you could track down those Steiner books.
)
) Steiner: The phenomenon of left-handedness is clearly karmic, and, in
) connection with karma, it is one of karmic weakness. Allow me to give an
) example: A person who was overworked in their previous life, so that they
) did too much, not only physically or intellectually, but in general,
) spiritually, within their soul or feeling, will enter the succeeding life
) with an intense weakness.
)
)
) Steiner, R. (1923). Conferences with Waldorf school teachers. (GA 300a,b,c.)
) Child development, left handed cross-dominance. Remarks by Rudolf Steiner on
) left-handedness from May 25, 1923. (R. F. Lathe & N. Parsons
) Whittaker,Trans.). Retrieved March, 3, 2003, from www.bobnancy.com (click on
) Waldorf then Developing Child).
)
Alice here;
Just a quick anecdotal piece. My mother, who was a microbiologist,
upstanding, mid-western, brilliant perfectionist, was forced to write
right-handed, although she does everything else left handed (like eating..)
We used to tease her about it because she would occasionally show signs of
dyslexic thinking - reversing names etc. She did not attend a Waldorf
school, just a very small traditional school in the 1920's and 1930's in
rural Indiana (a one room schoolhouse)
I am just now dealing with her recent life altering stroke and I have not
been active on this list because of this change in my family. But it is
interesting to have grown up with the confusion and damage this archaic
practice produced in my mother. She has developed severe anxiety over the
years and I believe that part of her functional confusion continues to have
its origin in the forcing of her handedness..
Her brother, a veterinarian two years older, was never forced to switch. He
shows no sign of dyslexic functioning or anxiety for that matter...
hmmmmm.
makes ya' wonder....
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 10:03:02 -0500
From: Al's stuff (alice.javanet rcn.com)
Subject: Re: was handedness - switching to pick and choose doctrine...
Alice here:
Now that I am thinking about it, I was wondering if we have ever covered the
topic of how different W. schools pick and choose the Steiner doctrine that
they refuse to compromise vs. the things that are allowed to become more
gray and dictated to by the popular vote of the board/ the
parents/prevailing theory etc.
It seems that many W. schools must at least give lip service to the current
theories on say, learning disabilities, but at the same time scramble to
provide the proper Steiner based pedagogy to support the W. curriculum. It
works for some things.. it worked for me as a parent for awhile, (supporting
developmental theory) the "whole child" approach etc. But I guess my
question is about the authenticity of shifts within the schools..Just how
much can they change if they are committed to Steiner's words as "gospel"
truth? If he was truly enlightened, how can they pick and choose different
parts of what he said? Was he having a bad day and so they can dismiss it?
Was he misinformed by certain naughty spirits during one or two lectures?
I just don't understand how they can eliminate certain aspects..I am sure
they could tell ignorant (sorry - like I was..) parents that they have
recently seen the light, but aren't they just bending to the will of the
parents who are pushing for certain things to change? Do they base the
changes on the "spiritual integrity" of the people pushing for change?
On their political/financial standing in the community(ie. power)?
It's just creepy to imagine such decisions made regarding children,based on
financial survival of the school or inauthentic "compromise" not on truly
accepting of a stronger and more effective way of educating children..
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 15:48:39 +0930
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Cc: waldorf-survivors-only yahoogroups.com
Subject: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with religious proselytization, specifically Christian -
and a review of my pre-Waldorf views of the school
I found an old message in my email box I thought I'd share with you. I
wrote this in apology for a somewhat negative response to yet another
Christmas greeting that assumed that I, too, was Christian - not "may the
spirit of the season cause me to act well toward all men", which I would
have welcomed and reciprocated, but something more like (sung to the tune
of an old Dr. Pepper commercial) "I'm a Christian, he's a Christian, she's
a Christian, they're all Christians, wouldn't you like to be a Christian
too - be a Christian, cel-e-brate Christmas"... (sigh) I have nothing
against the celebration of your own holidays, but enforcing them on others
bothers me (one of the problems I have with Waldorf/Steiner). The part
about Waldorf, and the post's relevance, is toward the middle - but the
rest is necessary for context.
------
Didn't mean to rant - just wanted to make sure I wasn't coming across as a
Grinch. I try hard not to reject the positive emotional messages, or the
impulse that prompted them to be sent, even when the context is one of
evangelism. (smile) I don't consider a difference of opinion to be good
grounds for returning ill will for good.
FYI - my views on this subject are strong enough that I don't prescribe
even my own religious beliefs for my child - I try very hard to give her a
spiritual education, in that I've read that children raised without one
tend to feel deprived of a number of things including common ground, later
in life when they do choose to explore their religious or spiritual
beliefs. But, I also try very hard to make sure that she knows that what
my husband and I believe is just that - what *we* believe, and that other
people believe other things.
I've made sure she won't be at a loss when people make references to
floods, doves, rainbows, mangers, and all of the other religious symbolism
which has been assimilated into the assumed language metaphors of the
culture in which she lives. At the same time, I've sought to make sure she
knows at least something of why we believe what we do, and why other people
believe what they do, to such extent as she finds it interesting and
comprehensible - she is only 4, after all.
But since she's been raised in a household where certain principles (like
the energetic flow within the body, pretty obvious when Mommy's going from
grey to pink thanks to microcurrent treatment) are just as much an obvious
fact of life as the fact that we put on a sweater when we are cold and
don't want to be, it's been easier to put some things (like being nice to
the earth, because if we make the earth sick, our food is sick, and we are
sick) in a way that is easy for even a 2-year-old to understand.
From there to the idea that we're part of a larger interconnected web of
life, just like our cells are part of a larger network, namely our bodies,
seems like a pretty obvious step. Since I've had no use for any religion
that requires me to believe things that conflict with my scientific
beliefs, or requires me to take anything on faith without allowing me at
very least a series of logical steps by which the belief may be established
from demonstrable facts, providing that kind of support for the things I
teach Sprout is a little easier than it would be if I were trying to teach
her that there was this omnipotent old guy up in the sky wearing a
nightgown and having small children torn apart by bears for teasing a bald guy.
Some of my own "co-religionists" are at least as disturbed by this as are
some of my Christian friends, though my Jewish friends tend to be more
understanding, because Judaism isn't about faith, it's about practise - I
have Jewish friends who are deists, atheists, and agnostics, and all are
sincere and devout practicing Jews.
Sprout just interviewed at the Steiner school earlier this week, which is
probably part of why I'm going on about this - the teachers there are
anthroposophists, and I'm having to find out just what exactly they're
teaching in science and history. I don't care what beliefs my child's
teachers hold, as long as they do not teach them to my child as fact - fact
is not the same thing as theory is not the same thing as belief.
I don't mind my child being taught creationism - in a comparitive religion
class, as part of the Christian or other creationist belief systems. I do
want my child taught that evolution through natural selection is a fact
demonstrable by the Birmingham moths, which were white prior to the
industrial revolution (to match the white bark of the trees on which they
lived), then turned dark grey-black during the intensely polluted period of
the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when the trees were black from air
pollution. When the air pollution in the area was curtailed, the moths,
with the trees, returned to their previous white coloration. On the other
hand, *Darwin*'s Theory of Evolution is just that, a theory, and not
guaranteed correct in all its aspects - it simply correlates with the known
data, and can be retained as a working model until refined or disproven by
further data.
The existence of Atlantis is a matter of debate, however it is likely that
one of the many civilizations lost to cataclysmic disaster provided some
degree of factual origin for the myths that later rose up around the
tradition - personally, I subscribe to the theory that the Atlantis legends
arose around either the volcanic destruction of the Minoan island of Thera,
or another Minoan trading port, possibly as far away as the coast of South
America - I happen to follow the archaeological research regarding ancient
voyages and trading routes, and there's evidence that the Egyptians were
trading with South America, and some suggestion (though by no means any
certitude) in the historical record that the Minoans, whose open-sea
navigational skills were among the greatest of their era, may have done so
as well. The problem is in determining just which of the "Pillars of
Hercules" the accounts reference. My point is that there are many
*theories* regarding a possible historical Atlantis, just as there are also
many bizarre and completely unfounded *beliefs* on the subject, as well -
and I don't want my child taught that it's a matter of historical fact that
the advanced civilizations of the world are all descended from the Atlanteans.
The problem is that for educating Sprout, we have a choice between
* the local public school - where we get headaches every time we go on
campus, from the chemical exposure, and where Sprout's already been
indoctrinated into Santa and Christmas, in the few days she attended.
* The Steiner school - which we know is non-toxic, and not going to
force Sprout into a Christian mold (another of their lies - once I found
out about all the Christian holidays and activities she'd be forced to
participate in... (sigh)), but where they are anthroposophists, with some
outdated theories of child development, advancing the children solely on
the basis of age, not teaching reading until age 7, and not teaching
computers until Year 10, and offering NO elective subjects until Year
12. This would give Sprout her best chance at a social life, as there are
other chemically-sensitive families involved with the school, many of whom
chose it for the non-toxic environment.
* The Marbury school - which may or may not be adequately non-toxic, is
completely non-discriminatory with regard to religious beliefs, and doesn't
teach any, is much more age integrated and offers the children more choice
of what to learn/how to approach the things they are learning, and is our
preferred choice - but only if it won't poison us going on the campus.
* Homeschooling - which my health precludes, because I can't give
Sprout full-time care; and, which would render it even more difficult to
provide her with a decent social life.
It sucks having to decide which part of my child to poison, body, mind, or
spirit... (sigh)
I think it's made me a little touchy with regard to prescriptions of what
to teach my child, not to mention the constant annoyance of being assumed
to be Christian. This time of year is worse than ever, since we moved to
Australia - at least in the Northern Hemisphere, we were celebrating Yule
at the same time everyone else was celebrating Christmas. It's hard on a
kid to be on the outside of anything. The fact that her birthday falls at
this time of year makes it easier, since she doesn't have to feel present
deprived - but the fact that everyone keeps assuming at her makes it
confusing for her, and I hate anything that hurts her.
Oh, yes, and then there's the Christmas letter from my husband's born-again
fundamentalist family celebrating the fact that the neighbors for whom
they've been praying for years have "finally accepted Christ as their
Saviour". I keep thinking of King Olaf of Norway, going through his
country lining up the populace and converting them to Christianity -
"Convert or die?" "I convert!" "Next - convert or die?" "I'll never
convert! Urk..." "Next..." They made him a Saint for it - when he and
his longships full of Warriors sailed into Rome to see the Pope and tell
him that Norway had been converted. Apparently the Pope's primary
objective was to get Olaf to go away again without deciding to "convert"
any members of the Roman church who didn't follow his particular brand of
Christianity. I think that praying for anyone to change their sincerely
held beliefs doesn't show a lot of respect for that person.
But then, these are the same family members who, when my husband was
unemployed and had no food in the house, in a town with no jobs, told him
that their church's food bank was only for church members. I seem to
remember a Samaritan who didn't feel that good works should be confined to
people who believe the same things as the person performing the act of
kindness, but then, I'm sure there are lot of Arabs who would be happy to
assure me that this is no longer a part of the Christian tradition as
practised in the US. Sadly, I'm sure that many of them are US citizens who
are just as loyal as the Japanese-Americans interned during WWII.
As I said, I'm both a bit touchy and bitter on the subject. It wouldn't be
so bad if it weren't for the fact that I was raised to believe in the truly
selfless, generous, charitable kind of Christianity - and for years, even
after I left the church to acknowledge and practise my own beliefs, that
was the kind of Christianity in which I didn't believe (just as I have very
good taste in the beer I don't drink) - but I thought that's what it meant
to be Christian. I mean, who could possibly believe in the kind that says
that only 144,000 people in all of history are going to be treated
decently, and the rest are destined to eternal torment - and are supposed
to somehow have deserved this?
But then I ran into things like my husband's parents' church, where a
Christmas Eve carol service starts its readings with the Fall of Man, and
gets worse from there, culminating in a sermon that is a story telling the
kids that Christ was born so that THEY could kill him (no mention of
Easter, just Good Friday), and it was all their fault, and they should
spend their whole lives feeling guilty, and grateful that he could be so
merciful as to allow them the chance to spend their whole lives making it
up to him, groveling, deriding themselves, and if they were really lucky,
they would get to spend all Eternity saying thank you for this privilege,
and praising his kindness and generosity (but don't expect to get to be
with anyone you loved during this Eternity, for in Heaven there is neither
marriage, nor giving in marriage, and of course, most of the people you
loved in life will be writhing in eternal torment for having failed to feel
adequately guilty or grovel low enough).
I've had a belief for a long time that if a thing is immoral without
religious justification, no religion can provide adequate justification to
make it a moral act. Emotional abuse of children, telling them that they
are worthless, that they can never be anything else, and that it's their
own fault, and so is everything bad that's ever happened to them or anyone
they care about - well, if a parent did that, I'd be tempted to call Child
Protective Services (if I'd ever seen them do any good). Emotional abuse
of that extreme extent is very damaging to children; there are laws
preventing any government-sanctioned carer for children from such
behaviour, and it would be considered adequate grounds for divorce - why
should it be tolerated in a religious setting???
How often have you seen a sports star take the blame for all of their
failure - but give the credit to "God" whenever they do well? I see it all
the time, in sports, in business, in many forms of competition - and I
can't see it as healthy, to believe that the only things one is capable of
are bad things, that any good must be divine intervention and not come from
within the individual, who is nothing but a miserable sinner, save that
they have God in their life.
I suppose that's probably why churches like the one my husband grew up in
preach against psychiatrists and psychologists - because any mental health
professional worth their salt WOULD consider such beliefs unhealthy and try
to cure the patient who held them.
I also have a few problems with the Christmas story (since when is it okay
for a lord to knock up his handmaidens, when they're betrothed to other
men? I'm supposed to worship someone who practises "Droit de Signeur" on
his subjects/children? This is something to celebrate? I thought I left
the SCA, and with it the loonies bent on bringing back all the worst parts
of the Middle Ages...), but I mention them ONLY because I want to make
clear how and why a season seen by so many as a festive celebration of
peace and love and joy could be disturbing to anyone, including me. I'm
ALWAYS happy to see people celebrating peace and love and joy, it's just
that I feel like a Native American on Columbus Day - I want to celebrate my
love of my land, my country, at least as much as the next person, but this
symbol of that love just really doesn't work for me.
I'm thinking maybe I should write this up on my website, as an
article. You see, it's not that I have any problem with you, it's just
that you prompted me to think, and I have no one to talk to, most of the
time, so when I think, I write.
Willow Firesong
---
A belief is a conclusion to which one subscribes strongly: "Our belief in
any particular natural law cannot have a safer basis than our unsuccessful
critical attempts to refute it" (Karl Popper).
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 00:00:17 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: was handedness - switching to pick and choose doctrine...
Good questions. I remember being annoyed at Waldorf Critics because I found
the generalizations here - and at the old site - quite ridiculous. It was
if every single Waldorf teachers had horns hidden under hair and hats.
After spending time reading and understanding Waldorf/Anthro from a
different (objective) angle I understand the issue to go much deeper than
simple generalizations.
I believe there are very decent, caring, loving, honest Waldorf teachers. I
believe some Waldorf schools talk openly about the mission of Anthroposophy
and the teacher's connection to children via Steiner's soul work. Where the
generalization *does* seem to stick is in the same dogma we see in so many
Waldorf schools. I believe it has to do with the religious nature of the
entire organization. Anthroposophy permeates Waldorf as it clings to
Biodynamics and Eurythmy. Yes - there are teachers who simply put up with
the weirdness and others who openly ignore it but the ambiance created by it
simply cannot be avoided for any length of time, IMO. I remember a teacher
once being begged to teach one year (ever heard of a Waldorf School with a
waiting list for teachers? (g)) and finally agreed to take a class for a
year *if* it was clearly stipulated in his contract that he would not have
to attend faculty meetings of any sort. He had been there/done that years
before. He was willing to teach *children* in a Waldorf school because he
felt that particular environment was more conducive to what he had to offer
than the local public school. Period. He barely lasted the year. The kids
missed out on a good teacher. The weirdness got in the way.
) But I guess my
) question is about the authenticity of shifts within the schools..Just how
) much can they change if they are committed to Steiner's words as "gospel"
) truth?
I see them change if they are threatened - especially with closure. I
remember *wanting* very hard to believe that Waldorf was, in fact, an
organic process - changing with the tide of energy that
parents/children/teachers brought to the school each year. "Threefold
Social Organism." That sort of thing. I would go out of my way to ignore
the heavy weirdness - the mission to Vulcan, etc. I guess we see what we
want to see.... until the dream (nightmare) finally ends and we wake up.
If he was truly enlightened, how can they pick and choose different
) parts of what he said? Was he having a bad day and so they can dismiss it?
) Was he misinformed by certain naughty spirits during one or two lectures?
If only it were so simple! Sorry, Alice - no luck. I cannot be certain but
I doubt I will see the day when I tune in to Anthro news to hear that
"Steiner simply had a bad day when he spoke of the Aryan race and Atlantis
and Indigenous people devolving into apes... and all that nonsense about the
decadent French allowing Blacks into France really is nonsense because we
now know that particular wacky speech was simply the result of a bad batch
of pommes frites in Paris that Steiner did not quite digest properly."
Nope. Looks like he said it and he meant it and today's Anthroposophists
believe it. Strangely, the only real picking and choosing of Steiner quotes
(apart from Critics pulling them "out of context") comes from Waldorf School
newsletters, pamphlets and web sites. The occultist is always dressed as a
philosopher/scientist/educator. Funny how that works.
) It's just creepy to imagine such decisions made regarding children,based
on
) financial survival of the school or inauthentic "compromise" not on truly
) accepting of a stronger and more effective way of educating children..
I cannot hide my cynicism here. I don't believe Waldorf Education (I am not
saying *every* W teacher) really has to do with "stronger and more
effective way of educating children." It goes much deeper into the Anthro
mission. That, IMO, is the problem. And it hurts.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1011
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:39:12 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: waldorf-survivors-only yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with relig
Willow, you wrote at great length (please!), including,
)But since she's been raised in a household where certain principles
)(like the energetic flow within the body, pretty obvious when
)Mommy's going from grey to pink thanks to microcurrent treatment)
)are just as much an obvious fact of life as the fact that we put on
)a sweater when we are cold and don't want to be,
There's no such thing as "energetic flow within the body," Willow,
however obvious it may seem to you.
)The existence of Atlantis is a matter of debate,
Not among historians or archeologists. I read a good book on it
recently, *Imagining Atlantis*.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1012
-- Topica Digest --
Re: primary Steiner references on left-handedness
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with
By alice.javanet rcn.com
Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with
By alice.javanet rcn.com
RE: simple example
By dkimble mystrotv.com
Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 08:46:44 -0400
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: primary Steiner references on left-handedness
on 4/4/03 12:07 PM, Nicole Foss at nmfoss hotmail.com wrote:
) John over at OpenWaldorf.com was asking in one of his forums (Academics and
) Curriculum) for primary Steiner references on left-handedness. I checked the
) archives here, but could only find secondary references about karmic
) weaknesses. He was also wondering if anyone had experiences of left-handed
) children being forced to switch in Waldorf. My left-handed daughter hasn't
) had a problem writing left-handed, although she's learned to knit
) right-handed (neither her handwork teacher nor I can teach left-handed
) knitting). Does anyone have anything they'd like to add? If so they can
) either post directly in the Academics and Curriculum forum at OpenWaldorf
) or, if they don't want to be involved in yet another Waldorf environment,
) they can post it here and I'll formulate a reply for him.
Sharon: I just remembered something else that relates to this subject. After
leaving Waldorf, a parent from my daughter's old class phoned me wanting to
talk to me about something, she came over to my house. Sadly, she had a baby
girl born without a right hand. She was concerned because one of the hard
core Anthroposophist teachers had come to her after the birth of her little
girl, and with tears in his eyes begged her to make the child right handed.
He said something like, "You will make her right handed, won't you? Promise
me you'll make her right handed!" The poor mother didn't know what to think,
though I learned during the visit that she was a Theosophist and had
attended a Theosophical high school in California, so Waldorf was probably a
very good fit for her family. Here are a couple clues to this hand mystery:
1). Steiner: "The limbs are the part of the human body which more than any
other part passes over into the life of the next incarnation. They are the
part which points to the future, to what comes after death" (Steiner, R.
(1970). Art in the light of mystery wisdom. Lectures from 1914-1923. [J.
Collis, Trans.]. London: Rudolf Steiner Press, p. 70).
2). Steiner's "head, heart and hands" are a reference to his meditative
path, and within those words lies all sorts of deep and hidden mysteries. In
Anthro speak, Head = Imagination = awareness of subjectivity, gaining
psychic/spiritual sight.
Heart = Inspiration = revelation as to what happens between death and
rebirth, spiritual hearing.
Hands/limbs = Intuition = one is able to see spiritual hierarchies and
karma. Union with spirit within and beyond the body. Body is transformed
into higher evolutionary form (spirit-man). Man is aware of himself as being
one with the macrocosm. His "I" is fully developed. Man recognizes the
mystery of Christ--the Greater Guardian of the thresh hold. Physical body is
informed by spirit, man's physical body is no longer important, it becomes
foreign to him, the spirit carries the physical body through the world, "as
if it were a foreign object, a table for instance". "Hand" is a reference to
the highest spiritual achievement an Anthroposophist can reach.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 09:08:37 -0500
From: Al's stuff (alice.javanet rcn.com)
Subject: Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with
on 4/6/03 8:39 PM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
) Willow, you wrote at great length (please!), including,
)
)) But since she's been raised in a household where certain principles
)) (like the energetic flow within the body, pretty obvious when
)) Mommy's going from grey to pink thanks to microcurrent treatment)
)) are just as much an obvious fact of life as the fact that we put on
)) a sweater when we are cold and don't want to be,
)
) There's no such thing as "energetic flow within the body," Willow,
) however obvious it may seem to you.
)
)) The existence of Atlantis is a matter of debate,
)
) Not among historians or archeologists. I read a good book on it
) recently, *Imagining Atlantis*.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 09:14:04 -0500
From: Al's stuff (alice.javanet rcn.com)
Subject: Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with
on 4/6/03 8:39 PM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
) Willow, you wrote at great length (please!), including,
)
)) But since she's been raised in a household where certain principles
)) (like the energetic flow within the body, pretty obvious when
)) Mommy's going from grey to pink thanks to microcurrent treatment)
)) are just as much an obvious fact of life as the fact that we put on
)) a sweater when we are cold and don't want to be,
)
) There's no such thing as "energetic flow within the body," Willow,
) however obvious it may seem to you.
) -Dan Dugan
Alice here:
sorry - I think I sent a blank replay initially...
From what I understand, recent PET scan studies show "energetic" flow with
the body. One can call it something scientific and specific - like
synaptical nerve stimulation or biochemical activation or something like
that.
I just started taking yoga.. tell practitioners of this - one of the most
popular movement/exercise techniques (with a relatively long tradition) that
there is no "prana".
And you could explain it to the many practitioners of the many thousand year
old tradition of acupuncture that there is no "energy flow within the body".
I guess it's how one defines "energy" isn't it?
I appreciate your practical, conventionally scientific mind, Dan.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:38:46 -0600
From: "Dave Kimble" (dkimble mystrotv.com)
Subject: RE: simple example
-----Original Message-----
From: walden [mailto:awaldenpond shaw.ca]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:08 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: simple example
[stuff deleted]
Enough. Sorry for the ramble. Off to bed with Deepak's new book, Golf
for
Enlightenment - Seven Lessons for the Game of Life. Anyone hear his
ideas
for avoiding war - Disney Theme Park in the Middle East. I wish I were
kidding... (sigh)
-Walden
Dave: Sometimes a good ramble is the only way to try to articulate the
unbelievable world around us.
The Disney thing was so outrageous that I had to research it myself (not
to impugn you as a source, Walden, I just have trust issues...).
It was, in fact, number 10 of DeepPockets (as my son calls him) "10 Ways
to Avoid War".
Number 5 was equally amazing:
Offer MTV, CNN, and Nickelodeon free to any Iraq household with a TV.
But then, he's on the beach in Southern CA, so he must have figured
something out that still eludes me,
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:41:50 +0930
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with
At 06-04-03 06:39 PM Sunday, Dan wrote:
)Willow, you wrote at great length (please!), including,
)
))But since she's been raised in a household where certain principles (like
))the energetic flow within the body, pretty obvious when Mommy's going
))from grey to pink thanks to microcurrent treatment) are just as much an
))obvious fact of life as the fact that we put on a sweater when we are
))cold and don't want to be,
)
)There's no such thing as "energetic flow within the body," Willow, however
)obvious it may seem to you.
Were it on-topic to the list, I would ask you to explain, without reference
to energy of ANY kind the operation of nerves and pacemakers, or try
replacing that flat statement with one asking me what *I* had meant, if
what you read made no sense to you. However, I see no point in doing so.
))The existence of Atlantis is a matter of debate,
)
)Not among historians or archeologists. I read a good book on it recently,
)*Imagining Atlantis*.
Oh? So, have they settled on the volcanic destruction of the isle of Thera
as the origin of the legend then? The likelihood of an event which became
known to history as "the sinking of Atlantis" IS not a matter of historical
debate, you are right - they just don't know WHICH of the sites it is,
which of the "Pillars of Hercules" (there's a set on each side of the
Mediterranean) it lay beyond, etc. As I told the folks at the
Waldorf/Steiner school when interviewing there, I'm aware that there are
varied theories - I favour the Thera one, myself. However, as I told them
then, too, I expect my child(ren) to be exposed to all and ONLY theories
which are not disproven by known facts, and shown the arguments for and
against each theory/hypothesis which they ARE taught - I don't expect that
which is not proven, including mystical or religious belief, to be taught
as fact.
Willow Firesong
---
A belief is a conclusion to which one subscribes strongly: "Our belief in
any particular natural law cannot have a safer basis than our unsuccessful
critical attempts to refute it" (Karl Popper).
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1013
-- Topica Digest --
Re: simple example
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: simple example
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
Re: simple example
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with
By dan dandugan.com
Re: simple example
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration wit
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Theosophy of the R
By dan dandugan.com
Re: intro + waldorf & gifted kids
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Theosophy of the R
By Percedol netscape.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 07:46:50 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: simple example
Speaking of MTV ... did anyone read the reports on how American soldiers on
the front lines in Iraq were so eager to talk to reporters from MTV? So much
so that reporters from the bigshot networks -- ABC, NBC, CBS -- all
expressed envy at the things the soldiers told the MTV reporters.
I read this in several publications, including the Washington Post and the
New York Times.
I realize this is a big off topic and not what your guy's thread was getting
at, but could not resist mentioning this.
Lisa
)
) -----Original Message-----
) From: walden [mailto:awaldenpond shaw.ca]
) Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:08 PM
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: simple example
)
) [stuff deleted]
)
) Enough. Sorry for the ramble. Off to bed with Deepak's new book, Golf
) for
) Enlightenment - Seven Lessons for the Game of Life. Anyone hear his
) ideas
) for avoiding war - Disney Theme Park in the Middle East. I wish I were
) kidding... (sigh)
)
) -Walden
)
) Dave: Sometimes a good ramble is the only way to try to articulate the
) unbelievable world around us.
)
) The Disney thing was so outrageous that I had to research it myself (not
) to impugn you as a source, Walden, I just have trust issues...).
)
) It was, in fact, number 10 of DeepPockets (as my son calls him) "10 Ways
) to Avoid War".
)
) Number 5 was equally amazing:
) Offer MTV, CNN, and Nickelodeon free to any Iraq household with a TV.
)
)
) But then, he's on the beach in Southern CA, so he must have figured
) something out that still eludes me,
)
) Dave
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
) New threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:09:05 -0700
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
Subject: Re: simple example
) Speaking of MTV ...
Well, that would be because most soldiers are like, 19/20 years old... of
course they're more excited about MTV!
And this is on-topic because...? ;-)
Sarina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 23:43:37 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: simple example
)) Speaking of MTV ...
)
) Well, that would be because most soldiers are like, 19/20 years old... of
) course they're more excited about MTV!
)
) And this is on-topic because...? ;-)
)
) Sarina
)
Lisa here: I think I said in my post that it was not on topic, but that I
could not resist mentioning this because someone else mentioned MTV.
I hope all of you will forgive my transgression of the on-topic rule.
The list ain't exactly hoppin' these days!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:25:49 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with
Alice, you wrote,
)From what I understand, recent PET scan studies show "energetic" flow with
)the body. One can call it something scientific and specific - like
)synaptical nerve stimulation or biochemical activation or something like
)that.
When you talk about the nervous system you're talking about reality.
When you talk about "energy flow," you're talking about holistic
fantasies.
)I just started taking yoga.. tell practitioners of this - one of the most
)popular movement/exercise techniques (with a relatively long tradition) that
)there is no "prana".
Prana is a pre-scientific explanation for how the body works. Neither
longevity nor popularity are good tests of the truth of a concept.
)And you could explain it to the many practitioners of the many thousand year
)old tradition of acupuncture that there is no "energy flow within the body".
I'll be happy to. Scientific knowledge replaces traditional knowledge.
)I guess it's how one defines "energy" isn't it?
It's a buzzword in holistic and new age circles, meaning just about
anything you want.
)I appreciate your practical, conventionally scientific mind, Dan.
Thank you. I practice scientific method in my electronic repair job:
intuit a hypothesis, devise a critical test, test, discard or confirm
the hypothesis.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:53:26 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: simple example
) ) Lisa: Perhaps exposing my ignorance here, but I would contend
that the term
)) "cult" and "cult like" are avoided these days because it is not Politically
)) Correct to "judge" another person's belief system. It sounds more
respectful
)) to say "new religious movement."
)
)Sharon: Well yes there's probably some truth in that Lisa, but the real
)reason is because scholars who study religion understand that all religions
)are human inventions. Religious beliefs are simply human constructions. It
)is therefore pointless to consider one group of believers false and another
)true. Over the years, "cult" has become a loaded term which is why scholars
)of religion prefer not to use it.
Missing the point. Anti-cult organizations like American Family
Foundation aren't concerned with the group's belief system, they're
concerned with abusive practices. Deceptive and/or abusive religious
groups are properly labeled cults.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:49:30 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Enforcing one's own beliefs on others - contains some
frustration with
))Willow, you wrote at great length (please!), including,
))
)))But since she's been raised in a household where certain
)))principles (like the energetic flow within the body, pretty
)))obvious when Mommy's going from grey to pink thanks to
)))microcurrent treatment) are just as much an obvious fact of life
)))as the fact that we put on a sweater when we are cold and don't
)))want to be,
))
))There's no such thing as "energetic flow within the body," Willow,
))however obvious it may seem to you.
)
)Were it on-topic to the list, I would ask you to explain, without
)reference to energy of ANY kind the operation of nerves and
)pacemakers, or try replacing that flat statement with one asking me
)what *I* had meant, if what you read made no sense to you. However,
)I see no point in doing so.
Anthroposophy includes a system of quack medicine, so pseudoscience
does come within the topics discussed here, but we should stick to
those issues specifically related to Anthroposophy. Sorry, you pushed
my pseudoscience button when you talked about "energetic flow within
the body." That's holistic nonsense.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:37:25 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Theosophy of the R
Percedol, you wrote,
)Your method, that is science, has failed.
You wish! Please tell me what areas of human endeavor have moved on
beyond scientific knowledge.
)It should have realized that
)what it missed it's most important element, which is thinking.
This makes sense only if you know that "thinking" in Anthroposophy
doesn't mean the same thing as it does in ordinary language.
)Now,
)people stick to science that as the highest achievement, but it's a
)failure. It's the new religion.
I think I'd call ethics humanity's highest achievement, but science
is certainly up there. You misunderstand science if you call it a
religion. I don't know of any religion where all knowledge is
tentative and people work to falsify fundamental ideas.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:14:46 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: hagenaar wxs.nl
Subject: Re: intro + waldorf & gifted kids
Edith Hagenaar, you wrote:
)First I would like to say I won't be on this list long, since I have
)only one question to which I could not find an answer on your great
)PLANS site (thanks for all the info, very enlightening). (also not
)on list archives)
)
)We're from The Netherlands. My son is in a Waldorf school now and it
)appears to me that (although I do not like labels) he is gifted. He
)just turned 5.
)
)I asked in school what they do with gifted kids and they said
)nothing, especially not at that age. When he is 7 they will assign
)someone who will make a personal plan for him. They said the school
)didn't have a special policy.
I think they're covering up what their policy is, because they know
you won't like it. They want to save your child from you, and they'll
work behind your back to do it.
)But he still has to spend a year and a half in kindergarten and even
)after that I wonder whether his intellectual abilities will be
)stimulated (enough).
)
)Now, my first question is this: what is the Waldorf policy on
)(academically) gifted kids and kindergarteners?
The policy is to try to suppress their "too-early" intellectual
development, which they consider to be bad, and a cause of ill-health
later in life. They don't want kids to reason before puberty. Your
son's "why" questions will be answered with
)The second is: do any of you have experiences with gifted kids in
)Waldorf schools?
)
)I feel a little weird since I haven't told you the whole story so I
)will. We have decided to homeschool our kids but the laws in Holland
)are very strict. We had had to make that decision before we enrolled
)our son in school, but unfortunately we didn't. This means we will
)probably have to go to court to fight our right to homeschool and
)defend 'why we changed our minds' on the Waldorf school. Therefore I
)am looking at every argument which will show why the Waldorf school
)is not a good option for my gifted and
)intellectual-challenges-craving son.
I think Waldorf will drive your smart kid crazy, get him out of there
as quickly as you can. Point the authorities to the PLANS web site
and http://www.openwaldorf.com, and tell them you found out about it
after you enrolled.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 05:34:34 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Theosophy of the R
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Percedol, you wrote,
)
) )Your method, that is science, has failed.
)
) You wish! Please tell me what areas of human endeavor have moved on
) beyond scientific knowledge.
P:
I would not wish it failed. It is now very successful, but at a level
that will bring to anything except serve better and better instincts and
our digestive system. It has become an indefinite series of findings at
an horizontal level. More and more data, in a neverending race. But it's
all number, measure and weight.
Yet, the method of observation applied to thought could lead the
investigator to find the actual subject of scientific research. Thinking
is used to analyze everything, but it is never turned to itself, except
for sterile philosophical speculation. Instead, thought should be
experienced in itself, before it determines itself as a form (image or
mental thought). But this experience is not speculation, it requires
inner work.
)
) )It should have realized that
) )what it missed it's most important element, which is thinking.
)
) This makes sense only if you know that "thinking" in Anthroposophy
) doesn't mean the same thing as it does in ordinary language.
P:
If I think 'triangle', my thought is not different from yours. But the
goal is to experience thinking before it becomes determined for an
object of thought. Before it takes any form. Therefore, it requires to
exercise the concentration. (This was not possible with any older
techniques, because they preceded the human experience of the concept
that was first experienced by Greek philosophers. It is quite the
opposite of the goal of ancient paths like Yoga, etc. that tried to
eliminate the mental substance, not to experience it, to avoid it, not
to possess it.) Until we can experience thought before it becomes
dialectics, mental thought, mental image, abstract thought.
)
) )Now,
) )people stick to science that as the highest achievement, but it's a
) )failure. It's the new religion.
)
) I think I'd call ethics humanity's highest achievement, but science
) is certainly up there. You misunderstand science if you call it a
) religion. I don't know of any religion where all knowledge is
) tentative and people work to falsify fundamental ideas.
)
P:
Science is an important achievement, and without it there would be no
possibility to have a spiritual science. But it would have been
important if scientists had experienced the act of consciousness that
allows them to understand everything, that allows them or us to accept
or refuse any idea or fact. Anything we decide is before all thought.
But we do not experience it. And this is what is missing.
The whole PoF focuses on this point: the experience of thinking. And
this is what RS has been proposing as the central theme of the spiritual
science from 1894 (and even before) to 1924 (see the last address) and
1925. For over 30 years (starting with PoF) he always pushed people to
achieve that. And that is always been the central message of the
spiritual science. Often misunderstood even by those who follow it.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1014
-- Topica Digest --
Re: intro + waldorf & gifted kids
By dan dandugan.com
Edith
By Diana.Winters verizon.net
Re: simple example
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Theosophy of the R
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Astral bodies
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Theosophy of the R
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Theosophy of the R
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Theosophy of the R
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Theosophy of the R
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:54:10 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: hagenaar wxs.nl
Subject: Re: intro + waldorf & gifted kids
Sorry, I didn't complete this paragraph
)The policy is to try to suppress their "too-early" intellectual
)development, which they consider to be bad, and a cause of
)ill-health later in life. They don't want kids to reason before
)puberty. Your son's "why" questions will be answered with
made-up fantasies intended to preserve his infantile world-view.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:15:31 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: Edith
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C2FE89.5883EA10
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Edith wrote:
today I have my meeting with the civil servant of our city who will
decide whether he will tolerate us taking our child out of school or
prosecute us.
Edith, if you're still with us, I hope you'll let us know what happened.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 12:49:23 -0400
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: simple example
on 4/8/03 1:53 PM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
))) Lisa: Perhaps exposing my ignorance here, but I would contend that the term
))) "cult" and "cult like" are avoided these days because it is not Politically
))) Correct to "judge" another person's belief system. It sounds more
respectful
))) to say "new religious movement."
))
)) Sharon: Well yes there's probably some truth in that Lisa, but the real
)) reason is because scholars who study religion understand that all religions
)) are human inventions. Religious beliefs are simply human constructions. It
)) is therefore pointless to consider one group of believers false and another
)) true. Over the years, "cult" has become a loaded term which is why scholars
)) of religion prefer not to use it.
)
)Dan: Missing the point. Anti-cult organizations like American Family
) Foundation aren't concerned with the group's belief system, they're
) concerned with abusive practices. Deceptive and/or abusive religious
) groups are properly labeled cults.
Sharon: No I'm not missing the point. Belief systems cause abuse, people
studying cults *are* interested in belief systems, that is what they study.
The term "cult" has come to assume that one particular group's beliefs are
false, and that the group is "evil" or violent. Within AFF there are varying
perspectives, it's not so clear cut. I would call AFF a "cutic-studies"
org., rather than an "anti-cult" org. I say *all* religious groups are
deceptive and abusive because they promulgate *beliefs* as "truth" and
manipulate people, but these deceptions and abuses vary in degree from group
to group. Many people who study cults have found that *extremely* abusive
cults usually become that way because of an unstable leader, like Jim Jones,
but that there aren't many of these groups. There really haven't been that
many examples of extremely abusive/violent cults in history. There are far
more examples of violent groups within the realm of political groups (which
can also be religious). *All* societal groups are susceptible to this
phenomenon, as bad leaders and bad ideology crop up in all human groups. A
group can act more excessively than it's members might act as individuals,
and this is what can be lethal. All human groups have a worldview, a
perspective of reality, and the core ideology and leadership usually
determines whether that group is "orderly" or not.
The word "cult" has a history. It has became a loaded term and many
religious scholars, even within AFF, argue that the word is not useful any
longer. The information about cults gathered by cultic-studies scholars over
the past 20+ years often contradicts anti-cult movement claims. Read
Jenkin's "Mystics and Messiahs, Cults and New Religions in American
History." And for a variety of other perspectives on cults and the term
"cult" see "Cults in Context" edited by Lorne Dawson. Some scholars involved
in AFF think it's religious bigotry to differentiate between group's
beliefs, some not. Some AFF participants operate from a Christian anti-cult
perspective, others not. Certainly some cultic studies experts think there
is a need to monitor new religious groups. I think all religious groups
should be monitored because even today's accepted groups can stray off
course, (as the recent Catholic scandal demonstrated). As an infidel, I
don't accept any religious group, I would avoid the Catholic church as I
would the Scientologists. Now that I know what Anthropspophy is, I'll be
sure to keep my distance from that as well.
Most religious groups/cults have more in common with each other than not.
Most do not foster mass suicides or eat babies. I haven't found one
religious group, new or old, that isn't deceptive, because religion by
nature is deceptive. Usually established religious groups are open about
their deception/beliefs and mission, unlike Anthroposophy. Besides being
esoteric by nature, I think Anthroposophists remain secretive because they
are trying to establish themselves as a credible religion. Few people would
take them seriously if they were to be open and frank about their beliefs. I
would have avoided Waldorf if their brochures talked openly about
reincarnation and the Sixth epoch etc. Unfortunately for them, their refusal
to be straightforward about their religious nature has caused an anti-cult
backlash which could end up harming them more, than if they were frank and
open. Sure I'm fed up with Anthroposophists because they tricked me, and I
oppose Steiner's racist doctrine, but I don't think Anthroposophists are
"evil" or extremely abusive. Misguided, yes.
Some AFF scholars avoid the term "cult", some not. Your interpretation /
definition of "cult" is not accepted by all, it's not that cut and dry.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:27:25 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Theosophy of the R
Percedol wrote:
)I would not wish it failed. It is now very successful, but at a level
)that will bring to anything except serve better and better instincts and
)our digestive system. It has become an indefinite series of findings at
)an horizontal level. More and more data, in a neverending race. But it's
)all number, measure and weight.
)Yet, the method of observation applied to thought could lead the
)investigator to find the actual subject of scientific research. Thinking
)is used to analyze everything, but it is never turned to itself, except
)for sterile philosophical speculation. Instead, thought should be
)experienced in itself, before it determines itself as a form (image or
)mental thought). But this experience is not speculation, it requires
)inner work.
Peter F responds:
This is all pure assertion without an ounce of evidence to support it. How
about supplying some of that evidence.
)
) ) )It should have realized that
) ) )what it missed it's most important element, which is thinking.
) )
) ) This makes sense only if you know that "thinking" in Anthroposophy
) ) doesn't mean the same thing as it does in ordinary language.
)
Peter F:
Well tell me what it does mean. Then it might make sense to me.
Percedol:
)If I think 'triangle', my thought is not different from yours.
Peter F:Maybe this is true, maybe it is not. I think it might well depend on
whether you are a mathematician or an architect, or a graphic designer. All
of these carry very different images around triangles.
Percedol continues:
)But the
)goal is to experience thinking before it becomes determined for an
)object of thought. Before it takes any form. Therefore, it requires to
)exercise the concentration. (This was not possible with any older
)techniques, because they preceded the human experience of the concept
)that was first experienced by Greek philosophers. It is quite the
)opposite of the goal of ancient paths like Yoga, etc. that tried to
)eliminate the mental substance, not to experience it, to avoid it, not
)to possess it.) Until we can experience thought before it becomes
)dialectics, mental thought, mental image, abstract thought.
)
Peter responds:
This seems to me to be a worthy exercise if it is possible. What evidence
might you bring that would lead me to believe it is possible. If you say
Steiner, I say poppycock, for all the reasons I have stated numerous times.
Percedol continues quoting Dan:
) )
) ) )Now,
) ) )people stick to science that as the highest achievement, but it's a
) ) )failure. It's the new religion.
) )
) ) I think I'd call ethics humanity's highest achievement, but science
) ) is certainly up there. You misunderstand science if you call it a
) ) religion. I don't know of any religion where all knowledge is
) ) tentative and people work to falsify fundamental ideas.
) )
)
)P:
)Science is an important achievement, and without it there would be no
)possibility to have a spiritual science. But it would have been
)important if scientists had experienced the act of consciousness that
)allows them to understand everything, that allows them or us to accept
)or refuse any idea or fact. Anything we decide is before all thought.
)But we do not experience it. And this is what is missing.
)The whole PoF focuses on this point: the experience of thinking. And
)this is what RS has been proposing as the central theme of the spiritual
)science from 1894 (and even before) to 1924 (see the last address) and
)1925. For over 30 years (starting with PoF) he always pushed people to
)achieve that. And that is always been the central message of the
)spiritual science. Often misunderstood even by those who follow it.
)
Peter F responds:
And I said before it seems absolutely clear from the available evidence that
he found little or nothing of value through this exercise except to build
for himself a lucrative career as guru.
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to
http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:51:56 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Astral bodies
)(Steiner,"Genesis, Secrets of the Bible Story of Creation", 104-105).
Sharon, may I have the year of the original lectures, the publisher,
city, and year of publication?
thanks, Dan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 04:36:56 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Theosophy of the R
Peter Farrell wrote:
) Percedol wrote:
) )I would not wish it failed. It is now very successful, but at a level
) )that will bring to anything except serve better and better instincts and
) )our digestive system. It has become an indefinite series of findings at
) )an horizontal level. More and more data, in a neverending race. But it's
) )all number, measure and weight.
) )Yet, the method of observation applied to thought could lead the
) )investigator to find the actual subject of scientific research. Thinking
) )is used to analyze everything, but it is never turned to itself, except
) )for sterile philosophical speculation. Instead, thought should be
) )experienced in itself, before it determines itself as a form (image or
) )mental thought). But this experience is not speculation, it requires
) )inner work.
)
) Peter F responds:
) This is all pure assertion without an ounce of evidence to support it.
) How
) about supplying some of that evidence.
)
P:
This is a technique, not a proof. There is no evidence about it, it
calls for inner action. It's about doing, not about discussing about it.
You are not interested, you don't do it. Simple.
) ) ) )It should have realized that
) ) ) )what it missed it's most important element, which is thinking.
) ) )
) ) ) This makes sense only if you know that "thinking" in Anthroposophy
) ) ) doesn't mean the same thing as it does in ordinary language.
) )
)
) Peter F:
) Well tell me what it does mean. Then it might make sense to me.
P:
Now, you are replying to Dan dugan.
)
) Percedol:
) )If I think 'triangle', my thought is not different from yours.
)
) Peter F:Maybe this is true, maybe it is not. I think it might well
) depend on
) whether you are a mathematician or an architect, or a graphic designer.
) All
) of these carry very different images around triangles.
P:
The concept is the same for everybody. By image I suppose you mean
'representation' that is the result of concept and perception. That may
differ. But the concept is the same.
)
) Percedol continues:
) )But the
) )goal is to experience thinking before it becomes determined for an
) )object of thought. Before it takes any form. Therefore, it requires to
) )exercise the concentration. (This was not possible with any older
) )techniques, because they preceded the human experience of the concept
) )that was first experienced by Greek philosophers. It is quite the
) )opposite of the goal of ancient paths like Yoga, etc. that tried to
) )eliminate the mental substance, not to experience it, to avoid it, not
) )to possess it.) Until we can experience thought before it becomes
) )dialectics, mental thought, mental image, abstract thought.
) )
)
) Peter responds:
) This seems to me to be a worthy exercise if it is possible.
P:
The exercise is obviously possible. The result depends on the practice.
What evidence
) might you bring that would lead me to believe it is possible. If you say
)
) Steiner, I say poppycock, for all the reasons I have stated numerous
) times.
P:
I would not appeal to the principal of authority.
One need to practice it and see what happens. There is no authority, or
anything to believe, because is a technical thing, an inner practice. An
exercise.
)
) Percedol continues quoting Dan:
) ) )
) ) ) )Now,
) ) ) )people stick to science that as the highest achievement, but it's a
) ) ) )failure. It's the new religion.
) ) )
) ) ) I think I'd call ethics humanity's highest achievement, but science
) ) ) is certainly up there. You misunderstand science if you call it a
) ) ) religion. I don't know of any religion where all knowledge is
) ) ) tentative and people work to falsify fundamental ideas.
) ) )
) )
) )P:
) )Science is an important achievement, and without it there would be no
) )possibility to have a spiritual science. But it would have been
) )important if scientists had experienced the act of consciousness that
) )allows them to understand everything, that allows them or us to accept
) )or refuse any idea or fact. Anything we decide is before all thought.
) )But we do not experience it. And this is what is missing.
) )The whole PoF focuses on this point: the experience of thinking. And
) )this is what RS has been proposing as the central theme of the spiritual
) )science from 1894 (and even before) to 1924 (see the last address) and
) )1925. For over 30 years (starting with PoF) he always pushed people to
) )achieve that. And that is always been the central message of the
) )spiritual science. Often misunderstood even by those who follow it.
) )
)
) Peter F responds:
) And I said before it seems absolutely clear from the available evidence
) that
) he found little or nothing of value through this exercise except to
) build
) for himself a lucrative career as guru.
P:
It is very easy to reject anything that involves to change something
within ourselves. And I don't mean 'to believe in something', but to
change our little selfish, instinctive being by means of exercises. Our
being does not want to change, it is comfortable as is, and therefore is
afraid of anything that tries to change its condition.
You write 'lucrative career'. Was RS rich? What makes you thing that he
made money out of it. It looks like it was a great sacrifice for him to
do all he did. Quite different for many gurus today that have millions
of dollars, cars and more.
Why don't you try some Chopra list?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 05:24:41 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Theosophy of the R
)Percedol wrote:
)This is a technique, not a proof. There is no evidence about it, it
)calls for inner action. It's about doing, not about discussing about it.
)You are not interested, you don't do it. Simple.
)
Peter F responds yet again:
Percedol, these statements of yours are demonstrably false. It is exactly
the same nonsense that Joel Wendt put forward, that is that it is a method
without content. This is false. I gave an analogy to this earlier. Let me
try again. Let's say a meathematician writes a computer program that
generates mathematical theorems with their proofs. Let's also say the
mathematician claims the program only generates theorems and proofs which
are correct. I do not have to look at the details of the computer program to
verify or falsify its operation. I only need to check the theorems and
proofs. If I find one that is incorrect, the mathemiticians claim is wrong.
If I check a large number (say one thousand) theorems finding none with
errors, I might start to believe the program actually worked.
I do not have to do the things Steiner said to know that many of the things
he claimed to be true as a result of this method are false, and so I can
discount the method.
)
)
)
) ) ) ) )It should have realized that
) ) ) ) )what it missed it's most important element, which is thinking.
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) This makes sense only if you know that "thinking" in Anthroposophy
) ) ) ) doesn't mean the same thing as it does in ordinary language.
) ) )
) )
) ) Peter F:
) ) Well tell me what it does mean. Then it might make sense to me.
)
)P:
)Now, you are replying to Dan dugan.
)
) )
) ) Percedol:
) ) )If I think 'triangle', my thought is not different from yours.
) )
) ) Peter F:Maybe this is true, maybe it is not. I think it might well
) ) depend on
) ) whether you are a mathematician or an architect, or a graphic designer.
) ) All
) ) of these carry very different images around triangles.
)
)P:
)The concept is the same for everybody. By image I suppose you mean
)'representation' that is the result of concept and perception. That may
)differ. But the concept is the same.
Peter F:
No I don't think the concept is the same. If you mean something like a
Platonic ideal even that is not simple because there are several varieties
of triangle.
)
) )
) ) Percedol continues:
) ) )But the
) ) )goal is to experience thinking before it becomes determined for an
) ) )object of thought. Before it takes any form. Therefore, it requires to
) ) )exercise the concentration. (This was not possible with any older
) ) )techniques, because they preceded the human experience of the concept
) ) )that was first experienced by Greek philosophers. It is quite the
) ) )opposite of the goal of ancient paths like Yoga, etc. that tried to
) ) )eliminate the mental substance, not to experience it, to avoid it, not
) ) )to possess it.) Until we can experience thought before it becomes
) ) )dialectics, mental thought, mental image, abstract thought.
) ) )
) )
) ) Peter responds:
) ) This seems to me to be a worthy exercise if it is possible.
)
)P:
)The exercise is obviously possible. The result depends on the practice.
)
Peter F:
It is not obvious to me that it is possible. The claimed results suggest
that it is not.
)
)What evidence
) ) might you bring that would lead me to believe it is possible. If you say
) )
) ) Steiner, I say poppycock, for all the reasons I have stated numerous
) ) times.
)
)P:
)I would not appeal to the principal of authority.
)One need to practice it and see what happens. There is no authority, or
)anything to believe, because is a technical thing, an inner practice. An
)exercise.
Peter F:
I have argued that this is incorrect above.
)
) )
) ) Percedol continues quoting Dan:
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) )Now,
) ) ) ) )people stick to science that as the highest achievement, but it's a
) ) ) ) )failure. It's the new religion.
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) I think I'd call ethics humanity's highest achievement, but science
) ) ) ) is certainly up there. You misunderstand science if you call it a
) ) ) ) religion. I don't know of any religion where all knowledge is
) ) ) ) tentative and people work to falsify fundamental ideas.
) ) ) )
) ) )
) ) )P:
) ) )Science is an important achievement, and without it there would be no
) ) )possibility to have a spiritual science. But it would have been
) ) )important if scientists had experienced the act of consciousness that
) ) )allows them to understand everything, that allows them or us to accept
) ) )or refuse any idea or fact. Anything we decide is before all thought.
) ) )But we do not experience it. And this is what is missing.
) ) )The whole PoF focuses on this point: the experience of thinking. And
) ) )this is what RS has been proposing as the central theme of the
)spiritual
) ) )science from 1894 (and even before) to 1924 (see the last address) and
) ) )1925. For over 30 years (starting with PoF) he always pushed people to
) ) )achieve that. And that is always been the central message of the
) ) )spiritual science. Often misunderstood even by those who follow it.
) ) )
) )
) ) Peter F responds:
) ) And I said before it seems absolutely clear from the available evidence
) ) that
) ) he found little or nothing of value through this exercise except to
) ) build
) ) for himself a lucrative career as guru.
)
)P:
)It is very easy to reject anything that involves to change something
)within ourselves. And I don't mean 'to believe in something', but to
)change our little selfish, instinctive being by means of exercises. Our
)being does not want to change, it is comfortable as is, and therefore is
)afraid of anything that tries to change its condition.
)You write 'lucrative career'. Was RS rich? What makes you thing that he
)made money out of it. It looks like it was a great sacrifice for him to
)do all he did. Quite different for many gurus today that have millions
)of dollars, cars and more.
)Why don't you try some Chopra list?
)
Peter F reponds:
People who know me well would be surprised to hear anyone suggest I was not
open to change. Deepak Chopra is not sonmeone I would look to for valuable
insight.
)==^================================================================
)You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
)New threads are always welcome.
)
)
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to
http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:51:26 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Theosophy of the R
) P:
) This is a technique, not a proof. There is no evidence about it, it
) calls for inner action. It's about doing, not about discussing about it.
Walden:
There is no evidence. Agreed. Why Spiritual "Science?" Inner action a la
Steiner's religion seems more apt. I am not here to dump on your faith but
I find it curious that you are not calling it a religious movement. Are you
uncomfortable with religion?
P:) You are not interested, you don't do it. Simple.
Walden:
See - there is the problem. When children are in Waldorf schools they are
"doing it" day in day out. If the parents were aware of the "inner action"
and soul work and mysterious ways in which teachers work the magic there
might not be such a problem. So it really is not "simple." But even
adults, it seems, are easily deceived by terms like "spiritual science" or
Anthroposophy as "the knowledge of Man." At least if a person asks me to
attend their local Catholic Church on Sunday I would have a pretty good idea
of what to expect.
If you believe it works for you and helps make sense of life I am happy for
you. But let's call a spade a spade.
-Walden
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point
than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
- George Bernard Shaw
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:22:23 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Theosophy of the R
)Percedol:
)It is very easy to reject anything that involves to change something
)within ourselves. And I don't mean 'to believe in something', but to
)change our little selfish, instinctive being by means of exercises. Our
)being does not want to change, it is comfortable as is, and therefore is
)afraid of anything that tries to change its condition.
)You write 'lucrative career'. Was RS rich? What makes you thing that he
)made money out of it. It looks like it was a great sacrifice for him to
)do all he did. Quite different for many gurus today that have millions
)of dollars, cars and more.
)Why don't you try some Chopra list?
Peter F responds again:
Did Steiner have a day job? Did he wash up in restaurants? Perhaps he was a
bank clerk during the day. As far as I am aware his full time work at least
later in his life was Anthroposophy. He might have not been wealthy in some
absolute sense, but this still might have been a good career for him. Of
course money is not the only attractant. Steiner acheived a certain fame
which was no doubt pleasing. It is not at all clear there was any sacrifice
made by Steiner as a result of this choice of career.
Peter F.
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to
http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1015
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Astral bodies
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Theosophy of the R
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Theosophy of the R
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Theosophy of the R
By spectmore yahoo.com
RE: Theosophy of the R
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Theosophy of the R
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Theosophy of the R
By Diana.Winters verizon.net
RE: Theosophy of the R
By Percedol netscape.net
test
By feetapparel hotmail.com
RE: Theosophy of the R
By feetapparel hotmail.com
RE: Theosophy of the R
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Theosophy of the R
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:07:59 -0400
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Astral bodies
on 4/9/03 1:51 PM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
)) (Steiner,"Genesis, Secrets of the Bible Story of Creation", 104-105).
)
) Sharon, may I have the year of the original lectures, the publisher,
) city, and year of publication?
Sharon: (G) That was quite a read! I should quote some more from it (G).
Ten lectures given in Munich 17-26 August 1910.
Anthroposophical Publishing Company, London.
Revised translation 1959.
Translation by Dorothy Lenn with assistance of Owen Barfield from the
revised 3rd edition of the German text--"Die Geheimnisse der biblischen
Schopfungsgeschichte."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:03:27 -0400
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Theosophy of the R
on 4/10/03 4:22 AM, Peter Farrell at feetapparel hotmail.com wrote:
)
) Peter F responds again:
) Did Steiner have a day job? Did he wash up in restaurants? Perhaps he was a
) bank clerk during the day. As far as I am aware his full time work at least
) later in his life was Anthroposophy. He might have not been wealthy in some
) absolute sense, but this still might have been a good career for him. Of
) course money is not the only attractant. Steiner acheived a certain fame
) which was no doubt pleasing. It is not at all clear there was any sacrifice
) made by Steiner as a result of this choice of career.
) Peter F.
Sharon: I happen to have a letter from him to his dear Marie (G)...I'll try
to find it. He was traveling, and in the letter he complains about his digs
which were not quite up to snuff, he asks Marie to organize an upgrade (G).
The book "Correspondence and Documents 1901-1925" gives the reader a sense
of his life through Marie and Rudolf's letters to each other. Steiner
certainly had his physical and spiritual needs met, traveled a lot, had
prestige and cash to buy rituals from people like Reuss (G). Both
Goetheanums were very costly to build, and expensive to run. He could
afford to practice any of his whims, his "art," (ie: produce mystery plays,
dabble in architecture, give thousands of sermons, copy Eliphas Levi's
apocalyptic seals and get them produced to adorn the walls of one of his
Rosicrucian temples, time to channel Zarathustra, dress up in special
costumes and hand out esoteric advice, perform rituals for followers, carve
an enormous sculpture of Ahriman, Christ and Lucifer, organize his angelic
communication that he called Eurythmy,....I could go on all day (G)), he
even had all sorts of people, mostly ladies, at his beck and call.
Volunteerism from his followers helped keep his costs down. I think he had a
rather nice life, although he did endure some humiliations. I heard that a
parent at the very first Waldorf school overturned desks in a classroom (G).
Some things don't really change do they?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:33:57 -0400
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Theosophy of the R
on 4/10/03 1:51 AM, walden at awaldenpond shaw.ca wrote:
)) P:
)) This is a technique, not a proof. There is no evidence about it, it
)) calls for inner action. It's about doing, not about discussing about it.
)
) Walden:
Why Spiritual "Science?" Inner action a la
) Steiner's religion seems more apt. I am not here to dump on your faith but
) I find it curious that you are not calling it a religious movement. Are you
) uncomfortable with religion?
Sharon: Here's religion scholar Robert Galbreath:
"Although criticism of what is perceived as narrow-mindedness among
professional scientists is widespread in modern occultism, much of the
occult also expresses itself in scientific or quasi-scientific terminology
and addresses itself to those who have been at least somewhat influenced by
the modern emphasis on scientific analysis...One of the most characteristic
forms of modern occultism is the intellectualized, systematic synthesis
aimed at the educated reader and intended to adapt occult practices and
knowledge, Eastern and Western, to needs of urban, industrial society.
Andrew Jackson Davis, Eliphas Levi, Mme. Blavatsky, Mary Baker Eddy, Papus,
Annie Besant, Aleister Crowley, Charles Leadbeater, Rudolf Steiner, Alice A.
Bailey, and others published massive treatises and systematic investigations
on the occult, most of them containing evidence for the reality of occult
claims and methods for personally verifying them. In this connection, one
source of appeal of these teachings to the educated reader was their claim
that they overcame the split between science and religion." (The Occult in
America, New Historical Perspectives. Edited by Howard Kerr and Charles
Crow. University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago, 1986).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:33:47 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Theosophy of the R
mysplum wrote:
(G)), he
) even had all sorts of people, mostly ladies, at his beck and call.
) Volunteerism from his followers helped keep his costs down
I have often wondered how new a pheno. the "Brides of Steiner" is. Do
you have any links for biographical info on this? (Or even *real books*
too)
J.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003