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-- Topica Digest --
Re: Charlie...?
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
More to Charlie et al.
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Charlie...?
By mysplum earthlink.net
Membership of Association for Bio-Dynamic Agriculture
incompatible with racist
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:55:10 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Charlie...?
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A late response to Charlie.
Charlie said (on the Jews):
)Any people that haven't had a homeland for nearly two thousand
years yet still remain a distinct group must )have very strong
cultural bonds, they must have strong blood ties, to put it in
Steiner's terms.
But Steiner's terms are racist, Charlie - they're not just
descriptive or neutral. Steiner here equates "strong cultural bonds"
with "strong blood ties" and you don't remark on this but merely
repeat it. It's not correct, Charlie; our cultural ties are not based
on our blood.
)I think he meant the term "Jewry" to be a way of thinking that
is looking backwards, back to the ancestors, )back to the land of
ones fathers.
Okay, #1) is this "looking back" a blood phenomenon, or do Jews
"look back" at various experiences that are worth looking back on?
And #2) what is wrong with "looking back" that it would be a thing to
be rooted out? Some would argue that a lot more, not less, looking
back is called for.
)And it isn't totally inconceivable that he wasn't just speaking
of Jews in this quote.
This works if you think you can interpret words to have any
meaning you like. Normally the term "Jews" does not include non-Jews.
)I certainly don't think that he meant that Jews had no right to exist.
Not Jews, but Jewry. (Well, Peter has argued that Steiner did
indeed mean Jews should not exist; but I would like to point out that
even if one takes "Jewry" to mean a cultural/religious phenomenon
rather than persons to be eliminated, this is still an appalling
statement.) Though I don't think Steiner thought Jews should be
killed, it's hard to say what he thought Jews actually ought to do
about their own obsoleteness, or (a more dangerous line of thought)
what anyone else ought to do about it. I recall a Steiner defender
here once saying that Steiner didn't think anything should be done,
the Jews would have to "want to change" on their own. I suppose they
could renounce their beliefs and cultural heritage, not call
themselves Jews anymore. Or would it be enough if they would just
stop "looking back"? Would you be comfortable, Charlie, with that
interpretion of what Jews ought to do to rid the world of "Jewry" -
giving you the benefit of the doubt that I'm sure you don't !
think anyone *else* should try to rid the world of Jewry? Perhaps you
feel that to simply exhort them to stop "looking back" is an
innocuous thing, yet what we are really talking about, when we ask a
people to stop "looking back," or we advise them that they are
"looking back" more than the rest of us do or should, is scary.
)According to Steiner, we have paid the price of "head thinking"
by forfeiting a broader consciousness.
This is *always* where anthroposophists go with this one. The
issue is not about "head thinking" and whether it is good or bad.
(Aside from what a ridiculous idea that is.) The issue is ascribing a
particular talent or preference for head thinking *or any quality or
talent* to a *particular* group on the basis of their race or skin
color. This issue doesn't often take off here. You can't get
anthroposophists to discuss it. It is either self-evident to them
that such racial categorizations are accurate or plausible, and
because it is as obvious to them as any natural phenomenon, like the
sun is hot and snow is cold, they can't address challenges to this
idea. Or they (I suspect) often do realize this is fallacious, and
the basis of racism, and they can't defend it so they deflect in this
manner, so the discussion turns to a non-topic like what is good or
bad about "head thinking." (Anthroposophists even, sometimes, seem to
feel they have turned the tables and revealed preju!
dice on the part of the critics, who are accused triumphantly of
having an indefensible preference - and perhaps it is even a sort of
reverse racism! - for such dubious things as "head thinking.")
)Such a relationship with the outside world is possible because
the Europeans have a narrow, sense bound )intellect.
Charlie, what complete hide-bound nonsense. There is hardly a way
to respond to such inanity. Do you believe it is true, that Europeans
have a "narrow sense bound intellect"?
)It can only be said that this proves he thought of Europeans as
superior if he thought of this attribute as superior )to a broader
clairvoyant vision.
See fallacy pointed out above. It is not about which type of
intellect is superior (a childish notion in itself; always the
obsession with *ranking* things), it is about this ridiculous and
pathetic notion that *based on race* you or an African or an
aborigine have, inherently, different kinds of intellectual
capacities or inclinations. Educate yourself! This is incorrect.
These are simply old racial prejudices that education is supposed to
have helped us all outgrow in this global day and age.
)I would agree that the culture of the native American is dying,
just as I would say the Scottish clans are dead.
It is not about whether a culture is dying. It is about whether a
spiritual world above or beyond this one dictates these events.
Historical realities or karmic ones? So much is made of the karmic
necessities, anthroposophists read Steiner and say, "Yes! Yes!" to
each other, yet then the bedrock philosophy of karmic necessity is
denied, anthroposophists pretend not even to understand the
distinction, and say mildly, "But the culture of the native American
*is* dying," as if we are arguing about what anyone can see looking
out their window as world events go by - as if Steiner had merely
been making descriptive, historical statements about various
cultures, rather than preaching about spiritual cause and effects.
The distinction is the very basis of anthroposophy.
The only way you get out of the "necessity," the "karmic" thing,
is then to say that sometimes there are mistakes in karma, wrinkles
in the fabric of karma perhaps, abnormal spirits and such, people or
races who aren't with the karmic program (and then, these deserve
rebuke for not getting out of the way fast enough when their mission
is supposed to be over, like the Jews).
)I think that it's a fact that the modern world is, now and in
the foreseeable future, the way it is because of the )creativity of
whites.
Come on Charlie. The *innate* creativity of whites? Creativity
handed down as their task and role by the Spirits of Whatever (the
Age, the Times or whatever it is) - or whites' creativity has
flourished because we subjugated people who got in our way by force?
(Not to mention sometimes taking credit for ideas or inventions that
weren't ours.) Charlie, Steiner's point is to *explain* such facts of
the modern world - and the answer is always spiritual or karmic
necessity - you can't defendthese ideas simply by pointing out that
whites are, in fact, largely in control.
This is my central frustration in arguing with anthroposophists -
they deny the basis of their own philosophy, which is that a
spiritual reality determines and directs human affairs; karma
determines everything. Then we ask, "So karma determines that, for
instance, Native Americans should die out?" and they reply, "But
Native American culture *is* dying out - haven't you noticed?" as if
it were purely descriptive after all, and not a theory of spiritual
causes.
)And thus, through the mixing of blood, is born the Western sense
bound intellect, lacking in clairvoyance.
So you buy that "mixing of blood" has caused what Steiner calls
the "evolution of consciousness"? I debunked this recently. Not that
it requires debunking, being flagrantly idiotic.
)I notice from the quote that he mentions history and he mentions
the present, there is no mention of the future.
Oh yes, the future we are supposedly moving toward where Steiner
says race will no longer matter. I recently looked at the Rosicrucian
Wisdom lectures - a footnote states that while Steiner says we are
evolving past racial distinctions in the next epoch, and this has
normally been translated as being "thousands" or years in the future,
Steiner's "extant notes" actually say that it is "millions" of years
in the future! (And this is Steiner's translators; not critics.)
)He is not talking here about the individual spiritual element
(which he views as now becoming the most )important element). To
understand all that is spiritual (i.e. racial, national, family and
individual spirit) we need to )understand how the individual spirit
develops out of the group spirit. This is what I take him to mean
here.
Yes, I agree that's what he means. And it's preposterous,
Charlie. Individuals' spirits don't develop out of their "group
spirits" from Lemuria or wherever.
)So the races get their different attributes as a gift from the
higher worlds.
Yes, that's Steiner racial theory in a nutshell, and it is
repulsive. Please take this "gift" and mark it "Return to sender."
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:59:14 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: More to Charlie et al.
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I wrote to Charlie:
)This is my central frustration in arguing with anthroposophists -
they deny the basis of their own philosophy, which is that )a
spiritual reality determines and directs human affairs; karma
determines everything. Then we ask, "So karma )determines that, for
instance, Native Americans should die out?" and they reply, "But
Native American culture *is* dying )out - haven't you noticed?" as if
it were purely descriptive after all, and not a theory of spiritual
causes.
Later it dawned on me - if you believe things happen because they are
meant to happen, then whatever did happen, is seen as proof of what
is meant to happen. It's a tautology yet with its own simple and
unassailable internal logic. There will never be any arguing with it.
When they point to historical events as proof of karma, they *are*
defending their theory, because they believe historical events are
karma.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:26:11 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Charlie...?
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Charlie wrote:
)I think that it's a fact that the modern world is, now and in the foreseeable
future, the way it is because of the )creativity of whites.
Sharon: The only way that statement could be considered accurate is if you
count colonialism and slavery as "creativity of whites". Here's another book
recommendation for you Charlie-- "The Africa That Never Was: Four Centuries
of British Writing about Africa". Dorothy Hammond and Alta Jablo will show
you how the content of British writing changed drastically during the slave
trade in the 18th century. How we've all been taught to think racist
nonsense because people were trying to defend the slave trade and
colonization. In order to get away with this brutality, a steady stream of
degrading stereotypes of Africa and Africans have trickled into our minds
through journalism, cinema, anthropology, missionary work, humanitarian
activities, novels, pro-slavery pamphlets, jokes, etc. Enslavement of people
with dark complexions, (from eons in a hot climate), became not only
justifiable, but desirable. In many Europeans' minds, slavery became
African's salvation. Our perception problem was a deliberate *invention*
devised to facilitate the Atlantic slave trade and colonization of Africa by
Europe from around *1500 CE*. (See Chinua Achebe's poems and essay in
"Another Africa").
A guy called Joseph Conrad went to the Congo and wrote a book called "Heart
of Darkness". Steiner and Conrad virtually quote each other because they
were drawing from the same stereotypes. Conrad devised a hierarchical order
of souls for the characters in his book. Africans are of course at the
bottom with "rudimentary souls". At the top are Europeans. And you Charlie
virtually quote Conrad when you say Africans are "full of rhythm". I'm
going to quote a bit of Conrad's poisonous writing from 1917:
Conrad: And between whiles I had to look after the savage who was fireman.
He was an improved specimen; he could fire up a vertical boiler. He was
there below me and, upon my word, to look at him was as edifying as seeing a
dog in a parody of breeches and a feather hat walking on his hind legs. A
few months of training had done for that really fine chap. He squinted at
the steam-gauge and at the water-gauge with an evident effort of
intrepidity--and he had filed teeth too, the poor devil, and the wool of his
pate shaved into queer patterns, and three ornamental scars on each of his
cheeks. He ought to have been clapping his hands and stamping his feet on
the bank, instead of which he was hard at work, a thrall to strange
witchcraft, full of improving knowledge" (38-39).
Sharon: When you think of Africa Charlie, always remember that the ancient
Greeks appreciated Africa. They would journey there to study. The ancient
Egyptians also appreciated their fellow African neighbors. Your perception
of Africa is a false invention because you have been brainwashed by
literature (including Steiner's work) designed to make you think that Africa
has not been discovered yet, and that nothing good has ever happened there,
that you are superior because your complexion is light.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:13:24 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Membership of Association for Bio-Dynamic Agriculture
incompatible with racist organisations
Copyright 2002 News Network Anthroposophy Limited. All rights reserved.
The following material may be republished without the prior consent
of News Network Anthroposophy. News Network Anthroposophy does,
however, require acknowledgement of the source and, if provided, the
author of the material.
+ + + + +
NNA-N E W S
Membership of Association for Bio-Dynamic Agriculture incompatible
with racist organisations
Olten, 31 December (NNA) - Membership of or cooperation with racist
organisations is incompatible with membership of the Swiss
Association for Bio-Dynamic Agriculture (Demeter). This was confirmed
by the members' meeting on 4 December in Olten, Switzerland.
According to a report by the Swiss Anthroposophical Media Centre, the
Demeter farmers attending the meeting adopted amendments to the
statutes of the organisation following a lecture on right-wing
extremism and its history in National Socialism by the historian and
archivist at the Goetheanum, Uwe Werner.
The amendments define bio-dynamic agriculture as a "worldwide
movement" which is open to all people guided by the ideals of
"freedom and human dignity". Membership of the Association expressly
requires acceptance of the "purpose and objectives" of the
Association.
The contract between the Association and bio-dynamic farmers was also
amended by a large majority to reflect the principle that
"cooperation with or membership of racist organisations" is not
compatible with membership of the Association. This amendment, which
lays down new rules for membership, is the result of events on 1
August, the Swiss national day, when the Swiss right-wing extremist
party PNOS organised an event on a bio-dynamic farm near Basle.
This led to the expulsion of the acting PNOS treasurer, Hans
Krattiger, from the General Anthroposophical Society (GAS) and the
Anthroposophical Society in Switzerland in October when the GAS
executive council became aware of Krattiger's membership of PNOS as
well as of the anthroposophical societies through media reports.
ENDS
+ + + + +
Item reference number: N021231-01EN
Date: 31 December 2002
More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 928
-- Topica Digest --
Re: religion and mental illness - was Re: revisionism and Schizophrenia
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: religion and mental illness - was Re: revisionism and
Schizophrenia
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Charlie?
By mysplum earthlink.net
Myths
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Re: Charlie...?
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
Re: Myths
By dan dandugan.com
Re: the pain of facing up to the abuse of children - was re: hurtful
tone
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 08:54:50 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: religion and mental illness - was Re: revisionism and
Schizophrenia
Willow and I were talking, a week or so ago, about whether a person can be
determined sane or not based on religious views . . . I don't think we were
disagreeing, Willow, I was kind of thinking aloud about the "metaphysical"
basis of this. From the mental health perspective, I've agreed with you that
these distinctions are the only practical basis for deciding whether a
person suffers some sort of delusion, or is simply one of millions sharing
beliefs about "unprovable" happenings. It seems to me that mental health
practitioners do not make the distinction on the metaphysical basis, but on
socially constructed agreements about when and where it is okay to dispense
with the metaphysics.
II f you consider *merely* the metaphysical basis, there are no better
grounds for believing wild impossible stuff happened "long ago in an
irretrievable past" than believing it happened yesterday (and most religions
assert that miraculous events will also occur in the - usually distant -
future, like the Second Coming - or reproduction via the larynx per
Steiner). Most people don't have trouble with the metaphysics of this, as
long as it is at a comfortable distance from daily reality. It becomes
largely a matter of social consensus or social role - the pastor can preach
from the pulpit on Sunday morning about miraculous and amazing events in a
distant past or future, but the rest of us can't start claiming God gave us,
directly, personal knowledge of such things - or that the miraculous event
is actually next Tuesday - or people start to question our sanity.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:42:59 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: religion and mental illness - was Re: revisionism and
Schizophrenia
on 1/1/03 5:54 AM, Diana Winters at Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net wrote:
)
) II f you consider *merely* the metaphysical basis, there are no better
) grounds for believing wild impossible stuff happened "long ago in an
) irretrievable past" than believing it happened yesterday (and most religions
) assert that miraculous events will also occur in the - usually distant -
) future, like the Second Coming - or reproduction via the larynx per
) Steiner). Most people don't have trouble with the metaphysics of this, as
) long as it is at a comfortable distance from daily reality. It becomes
) largely a matter of social consensus or social role - the pastor can preach
) from the pulpit on Sunday morning about miraculous and amazing events in a
) distant past or future, but the rest of us can't start claiming God gave us,
) directly, personal knowledge of such things - or that the miraculous event
) is actually next Tuesday - or people start to question our sanity.
Sharon: I suppose it depends on the mental health practitioner's worldview.
Most religions allow for miracles to happen in the present as well. I love
to watch TV evangelists on telly get up to some pretty wild stuff, like
laying hands on people to heal them. I bet many people would not think the
evangelists are insane. Most people would just think, "oh it's their
beliefs."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 12:03:40 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Charlie?
) Charlie: I think that it's a fact that the modern world is, now and in the
) foreseeable future, the way it is because of the creativity of whites.
Sharon: Three individuals--a child and two adults--walked across the East
African pan 3 million years ago towards the Serengeti plains, leaving a
trail of footprints petrified in mud. By the 1970s they were walking on the
moon.
The modern world is the way that it is now because groups of modern humans
left Africa 100,000 years ago, emigrating to the rest of the world. Humanity
evolved in Africa, and we owe everything to our early ancestors there. We
have everything in common with Africans--they got to Europe 30,000 years
ago.
Unless of course you are an Anthroposophist and believe that "savages" are
devolving toward apes because Ahriman thwarted the cosmic plan to have
humans develop "beautiful" bodies and become white-skinned; and that Manu
led a group of "spiritually advanced" humans (the ancient Aryans) out of the
Atlantis flood which occurred somewhere in the region of present day
Ireland.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 19:36:30 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Myths
mysplum wrote:
) By the 1970s they were walking on the
) moon.
); and that Manu
) led a group of "spiritually advanced" humans (the ancient Aryans) out of
) the
) Atlantis flood which occurred somewhere in the region of present day
) Ireland.
Klaudia:
What's similar with US-people and arabs? Neither has never walked on the
moon.
It is very diffucult to believe that on such technology (34 years ago)
someone has gone to the moon and even came back. If the module ever
landed the moon, it is still there.
Another myth is Atlantis. If I had to choose, which myth is more
believable, I prefer Atlantis.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 14:33:13 +1030
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: Re: Charlie...?
)on 12/18/02 6:55 PM, charles morrison at charlie morrison5.fsnet.co.uk
)wrote:
)Charlie:
)I do think that Steiner's words, as quoted, are by definition racist. But
)I suppose if I'm honest, some of my views are also by definition racist.
)In my mind blacks of African descent conjure up words like athletic, full
)of rhythm; I associate native Americans with wisdom, Chinese with humility
)and happy natures. I know that I am making generalisations and I wouldn't
)use this as a basis for judging individuals, but I still can't help
)feeling that there is some truth behind it.
)
)Sharon: Now you're being refreshingly honest. So many people in our
)society (and yours) have this kind of thinking engrained in them. We must
)fight against this kind of thinking Charlie.
Willow:
After all, this *is* itself *racist* thinking. You are thinking "in terms
of race", which is basically what racist means. You are treating the race
as a characteristic innate to the individual, and saying that they would
have the characteristics that you ascribe to the race *regardless of where
they were born and raised and in what way and culture they were
raised*. To believe in these stereotypes and ascribe them to race is to be
racist. You may not see it that way, as you don't see yourself as treating
one race better than another - but you *discriminate* between them. It's a
revealing word, "discrimination" - it means "the act of, or capacity for,
distinguishing between". In other words, you are categorizing on the basis
of race - and that is what discrimination means, using a characteristic to
tell the difference between two things.
The well-trained palate may be able, for instance, to "discriminate"
between two fine wines - the owner of that palate may believe the wines to
be of equal quality, but they can tell the difference between them, and
they might serve one with dessert and the other with red meat, according to
the stereotypes associated with the category in which that discriminating
palate has placed them. In such a context, our capacity for discrimination
serves a purpose.
But in the process, the individual grape's identity has been lost, subsumed
into group membership in the vintage. To treat human beings as if they
were as easily categorized by their "vintage" is a very different
thing. We do not develop as individuals if we mire ourselves in thinking
that individuals are fully defined by the groups in which they are members
by accident of birth. To choose to do so is to ignore and devalue our
capacity for individual growth and development, and with it our individual
worth. Furthermore, in a very real way, to discriminate on the basis of
race is to be unable to tell apart the individuals within that race, for
one's perception of them does not extend to their individuality, only to
the race by which one has categorized them. This is the source of the
mindset to which "they" *really do* "all look alike" - because the person
is unable to perceive the individuals in front of their face, seeing only
their races.
)Charlie: On the TV recently I watched a choir of black African children
)performing. I loved the way that each of them were moving beautifully with
)the music. Every child seemed oblivious to those around them as they each
)moved naturally to the music in their own individual way, but the total
)effect was what I can only describe as harmonious chaos. I've watched
)choirs of Scottish children singing haunting Gaelic airs and they have
)sounded wonderful, but I couldn't describe them as moving naturally to the
)music. It may be put down to ethnic or cultural differences, but the
)difference I see I can't help associating with racial characteristics.
)Making generalisations is not so much of a sin, in my estimation, as
)treating individuals as though they will and must conform to thoses
)generalisations.
)
)Sharon: Now what you need to see and hear is a choir of African children
)singing haunting Gaelic airs and a Scottish choir singing and moving to
)the music that the Africans were singing and dancing to. Then see a group
)of Scottish Africans singing African songs....
Willow:
And while you're at it, how about some rousing Scottish dance music? Why
are you comparing dance music with non-dance music and being surprised when
the latter does not immediately conjure images of dancing to your
mind? I've done Scottish dancing, and I can tell you that the music is
just as lively and just as rhythmic and just as dance-impelling as any
African or Latin American beat. I've also watched people playing Scottish
music, or even listening to it, and suddenly their whole body is moving to
the music and their fingers itching for a bodhran and accepting whatever
flat surface may be handy in its place.
Different *cultures* find different ways of expressing themselves in music
and dance, partly because of the way that musical development tends to
reflect the sounds and materials available in nature, which are naturally
going to differ with changes in the environment. A people with no reeds
are unlikely to develop the reed flute in all of its variations, and one
without wood is unlikely to develop the marimba. Our instruments then
reflect themselves in the music written for them, and by these means, our
differing environments influence the musical development of each culture.
BUT - it is the human element, the human "spirit" if you will, that drives
us to create music at all, to dance, and to sing - and these are found in
*every* human culture, to the best of my knowledge. I have never heard of
any human culture that does not have a form of dance, or which completely
lacks music.
In fact, most cultures have several kinds of music - religious music,
secular music, music for celebrations, music for mourning... and it is
*utterly ridiculous* to compare music for mourning to music from one
culture to music for dancing from another culture, and then say that the
latter culture lacks rhythm and the spirit of dance.
)Sharon: See Charlie, there is no such thing as race, there is only one
)race--the human race.
Willow:
I thought we had established this once before, Charlie. After all, you
quoted that line from one of my songs in response to a post from me on this
subject several months ago:
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)From: charlie morrison (charliemorrison btinternet.com)
)Subject: Re: 911
)Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:09:37 +0100
)Message-ID: (0.1700032592.1602609176-1463747838-1032847801 topica.com)
)Errors-To: (list-errors.1700032592.0.1724929593.007.0.0 boing.topica.com)
)
)Hi Willow. Yes I realised after I'd sent the message that, in my haste, I
)hadn't phrased it very well at all. It's just that I was thinking that it
)was such a concentrated attack, but the painful effects rippled round the
)whole of the planet. I know that native New Yorkers bore the brunt of it,
)but people from all over the globe have been directly affected and have had
)their lives changed by these events.
)
)Thank you for the inspirational poem. I'm with you on the
)unity of the human race. It's a pity that the people who
)carry out these atrocities don't see things this way.
)
)warm regards,
)Charlie.
)
)----- Original Message -----
)From: "Willow Firesong" (willow.firesong creative-interweb.com)
)To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
)Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 2:37 AM
)Subject: Re: 911
)
) ) At 11-09-02 10:51 PM Wednesday, Charlie wrote:
) ) )looking at the surnames of those who died reminds me
) ) )that the victims belonged to the whole of humanity.
) )
) ) Willow: We all do, Charlie. Each and every one of us,
) ) each and every day of the year. There is no race to
) ) which each of us belongs, other than the human race.
) )
) ) "For when you see the globe from space
) ) You see no borderline or race
) ) The world and we are one, so we must share.
) ) As long as we live on one Earth,
) ) We must live as the one race we are..."
Remember, Charlie, it's a lot easier to carry out atrocities when you think
of others as being somehow different from yourself. That has been one of
the most reliable results of the mental division of humanity into races,
throughout history. Isn't it time we stopped indulging in this damaging
and faulty view of humanity? Isn't it time *you* stopped indulging in it?
Willow Firesong
---
A belief is a conclusion to which one subscribes strongly: "Our belief in
any particular natural law cannot have a safer basis than our unsuccessful
critical attempts to refute it" (Karl Popper).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:29:55 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Myths
)Klaudia:
)What's similar with US-people and arabs? Neither has never walked on the
)moon.
)It is very diffucult to believe that on such technology (34 years ago)
)someone has gone to the moon and even came back. If the module ever
)landed the moon, it is still there.
)Another myth is Atlantis. If I had to choose, which myth is more
)believable, I prefer Atlantis.
Regarding walking on the moon, there were six separate expeditions
that succeeded in putting explorers down on the moon and getting them
back. There's a beautiful book that came out recently, "Full Moon" by
Michael Light, that shows a lot of pictures from the NASA archives
that haven't been published before.
About Atlantis, I highly recommend "Imagining Atlantis" by Richard
Ellis. It traces the Atlantis myth from Plato through its
19th-century revival by Ignatius Donnelly up to the present.
All stories are not equally credible!
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 23:04:04 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: the pain of facing up to the abuse of children - was re: hurtful
tone
Life keeps me busy. Too busy at times. I forgot to do something a while
back. Better late than never. Thank-you, Willow - especially for the poem.
-Walden
Willow wrote: (snip)
) This is for you, Walden - I wrote it a while back, in dealing with my own
) experience in leaving the cult-like group I mentioned. They too have a
) patent on a Dream - or think that they do...
)
) Dreamers Awake!
)
) O! To walk the paths of yesteryear,
) In a never-was time of childhood safety
) And an uncountable wealth of friendships
) Old and new, near and far;
) A trustworthy kinship with each soul bedecked
) In the customary costume of our chosen clan,
) Each face beneath the proud-born badge
) Of fantasy made real enough to walk through,
) As if one could vacation there, on holiday.
) Souls spun into fantasy made real within the mind,
) Joined together in a web of illusions, made of
) Threads frayed and ravelled from the humdrum fabric of mundane reality,
) Interwoven into seeming seamless unity, by knots:
) Not history, not fantasy, not family, not friends.
) Strangers with a common setting, bound together by a dream.
) Bonds that seem as real as heartache, and as tangible as the words within
a
) book,
) Binding as tightly as belief in their reality.
) 'Til the dreamer, upon waking, finds the bonds are melting mist,
) An illusory linkage among sleepwalkers
) Managed by mesmerists revelling in their Dream-fed power to control,
) Ever-fearful, lest some jarring note
) Should shatter the deception,
) Wake the Dreamers,
) And leave all lost and lorn,
) Washed up on the Limbo they have made of their own lives.
)
) ---
)
) That patent, the one that these groups claim to have upon the dreams that
) bring people to them, isn't real - your life now is, and so too, from your
) description, are the bonds and relationships you form now. One sign of
) that is that a person leaves a hole if they go away. I would miss you if
) you went away, Walden - and I think a big part of the reason for that is
) that you are uncompromisingly real, even when that reality is not in
) accordance with the dreams you have for it.
)
) Not all dreams take reality into account. Only those that do can be made
) to manifest as real, no matter what you sacrifice to them.
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 929
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Myths
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Myths
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
re: man on the moon/was "Myths"
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: man on the moon/was "Myths"
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
I meant: 60 years ago
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Re: man on the moon/was "Myths"
By momof2gals mindspring.com
re: man walking on the moon/was "Myth"
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: Myths
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Myths
By david.kehoe mcguire.af.mil
Admin: web counter 103,866
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 08:50:42 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Myths
on 1/1/03 11:36 AM, Klaudia at klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com wrote:
) Klaudia:
) What's similar with US-people and arabs?
Sharon: Our humanity.
Klaudia: Neither has never walked on the moon.
Sharon: LOL slapping my leg. So you don't believe man has been to the moon?
I've heard there are people who believe it was a trick by the US government,
but I'd never met such a believer before. There was a movie about this a
couple years ago, wasn't there?
) It is very diffucult to believe that on such technology (34 years ago)
) someone has gone to the moon and even came back. If the module ever
) landed the moon, it is still there.
) Another myth is Atlantis. If I had to choose, which myth is more
) believable, I prefer Atlantis.
Sharon: I'm shocked, speechless. Maybe you are an Anthro double agent? I'm
very surprised Klaudia.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 22:54:40 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Myths
mysplum wrote:
) ) It is very diffucult to believe that on such technology (34 years ago)
) ) someone has gone to the moon and even came back. If the module ever
) ) landed the moon, it is still there.
) ) Another myth is Atlantis. If I had to choose, which myth is more
) ) believable, I prefer Atlantis.
)
) Sharon: I'm shocked, speechless. Maybe you are an Anthro double agent?
) I'm
) very surprised Klaudia.
I've never heard that some anthro has believed that man has not walked
on the moon. I think that according to their belief we go to the moon
and even more far away each night.
I tried to find at www, if there is some anthro is sharing my doubt, but
I could not find any.
But many others are have strong doubt. Here is one:
http://www.moonmovie.com/10things.html
I have discussed about the item face to face with US-people twice
earlier. On the first time I was called as a communist. At second time I
was called as lesbian.
And now at third time the top one: I'm called as an Anthro-agent.
God Bless the Americans!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 18:01:19 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: man on the moon/was "Myths"
Klaudia says, in regard to her belief that human beings did NOT land on the
moon:
I have discussed about the item face to face with US-people twice
earlier. On the first time I was called as a communist. At second time I
was called as lesbian.
And now at third time the top one: I'm called as an Anthro-agent.
God Bless the Americans!
Lisa: Thanks for the blessing, Klaudia! I can always use an extra. And while
I wouldn't accuse you of being an Anthro-agent or a communist or anything
else, I would very much like to know why you believe that the moon landing
was a hoax. Why is it so hard for you to believe that human beings landed on
the moon and even walked there?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:29:45 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: man on the moon/was "Myths"
Lisa D. Ercolano wrote:
)
) Lisa: Thanks for the blessing, Klaudia! I can always use an extra. And
) while
) I wouldn't accuse you of being an Anthro-agent or a communist or
) anything
) else, I would very much like to know why you believe that the moon
) landing
) was a hoax. Why is it so hard for you to believe that human beings
) landed on
) the moon and even walked there?
Klaudia:
As I earlier told:
34 years ago technology was not so advanced that space ship could carry
people alive to moon and bring them alive back. I suppose that it is
still in the year 2003 same, even there has been huge improvements on
technology.
If the module ever landed the moon, I strongly doubt that it could ever
rise back to orbit. It needs huge amount of fuel (even there is less
gravity in the moon).
For me it is no problem if abroad citizens believe what their rulers are
telling them.
In Germany 60 years rulers told the citizens that there is not any
concentration camps for Jews and that Jews are not killed there. Some
German people still believe that.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:33:54 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: I meant: 60 years ago
One word was missing, I meant:
For me it is no problem if abroad citizens believe what their rulers are
telling them.
In Germany 60 years ago rulers told the citizens that there is not any
concentration camps for Jews and that Jews are not killed there. Some
German people still believe that.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 20:16:25 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: man on the moon/was "Myths"
)
) Lisa D. Ercolano wrote:
)
))
)) Lisa: Thanks for the blessing, Klaudia! I can always use an extra. And
)) while
)) I wouldn't accuse you of being an Anthro-agent or a communist or
)) anything
)) else, I would very much like to know why you believe that the moon
)) landing
)) was a hoax. Why is it so hard for you to believe that human beings
)) landed on
)) the moon and even walked there?
)
) Klaudia:
)
) As I earlier told:
) 34 years ago technology was not so advanced that space ship could carry
) people alive to moon and bring them alive back. I suppose that it is
) still in the year 2003 same, even there has been huge improvements on
) technology.
) If the module ever landed the moon, I strongly doubt that it could ever
) rise back to orbit. It needs huge amount of fuel (even there is less
) gravity in the moon).
)
) For me it is no problem if abroad citizens believe what their rulers are
) telling them.
) In Germany 60 years rulers told the citizens that there is not any
) concentration camps for Jews and that Jews are not killed there. Some
) German people still believe that.
)
Lisa: Oh come on, Klaudia! Tell me why technology was not advanced enough,
as you say, to carry human beings to the moon and then bring them back
alive. Are you an aeronautical engineer? Have you any special expertise in
engineering, and in space flight and travel?
What makes you think that the leaders of us "citizens abroad" -- as you
call us -- are lying to the public about man's trip to the moon? What would
be their motivation for doing so, pray tell?
To compare the fact that I and other Americans (and Europeans, Africans,
Chinese, etc.) believe that humans did travel to and walk upon the moon to
believing there were no death camps in Nazi Germany is just plain
ridiculous.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 20:30:53 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: man walking on the moon/was "Myth"
We all know we can't simply believe everything we hear, read, etc.
However, for anyone interested in a brief, but intelligent, discussion of
the "controvery" surrounding the Apollo 11 mission to the moon and what, if
any, proof exists that American astronaut Neil Armstrong (and crew) landed
on the Moon, try this:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmoonhoax.html
Warning: this brief article is not gentle on those disbelievers, such as
Klaudia, whom it likens to those who refuse to believe the Earth is round
.....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:51:19 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Myths
Klaudia, you wrote,
)I've never heard that some anthro has believed that man has not walked
)on the moon. I think that according to their belief we go to the moon
)and even more far away each night.
)
)I tried to find at www, if there is some anthro is sharing my doubt, but
)I could not find any.
The Australian master teacher Whitehead wrote in one of his teaching
guides that the moon trips might have been a hoax.
)But many others are have strong doubt. Here is one:
)http://www.moonmovie.com/10things.html
For more credible sources, see:
http://www.redzero.demon.co.uk/moonhoax/
http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/News/2001/News-MoonLanding.asp
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 00:39:33 -0600
From: "Kehoe David N SrA 605AMXS/MXAB" (david.kehoe mcguire.af.mil)
Subject: RE: Myths
I normally lurk on this list but I have to but in on this one. I am
an aeronautical engineer for the U.S.AF. The technology did exist and
we did go to the moonand back. You need wake up and take a look at
what is going on in this world around you, try for starters by
looking out your window. Do you have still any windows or were they
all boarded up back in the 20' by your parents. The technology that
you are saying could not have been around 34 years ago was actually
around long before that, look at the SR-71, now officially retired.
It was built in the early 50's. The plans to build it were done in
1948 and 1949. That air craft was 60 years ahead in technology
compared to what was available to the general public, so yes the
government had the technology to send a man to the moon and back 34
years ago.
SSgT Kehoe
McGuire AFB NJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Dugan [mailto:dan dandugan.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 7:51 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: Myths
Klaudia, you wrote,
)I've never heard that some anthro has believed that man has not walked
)on the moon. I think that according to their belief we go to the moon
)and even more far away each night.
)
)I tried to find at www, if there is some anthro is sharing my doubt, but
)I could not find any.
The Australian master teacher Whitehead wrote in one of his teaching
guides that the moon trips might have been a hoax.
)But many others are have strong doubt. Here is one:
)http://www.moonmovie.com/10things.html
For more credible sources, see:
http://www.redzero.demon.co.uk/moonhoax/
http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/News/2001/News-MoonLanding.asp
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 00:11:24 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: web counter 103,866
On January 1, 2003, the PLANS web site had registered 103,866
visitors since August 12, 1996. (Visitors, not hits, repeats on the
same day are not counted. Thanks, Web-Counter: http://www.digits.com.)
We had 1940 visitors in the last 30 days, averaging 65 per day.
Hit counters give much higher but less meaningful numbers, because
they count every page and image viewed. The hits on our site in the
month of December totaled 132,609, averaging 4420 per day.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 930
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 930
By lisa chamsoft.com.au
Re: Myths
By mysplum earthlink.net
SR-71, Windows (was RE: Myths)
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Back in the Doctor Steiner (was RE: Myths)
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Back in the Doctor Steiner (was RE: Myths)
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 3 Jan 2003 12:06:17 -0000
From: lisa chamsoft.com.au (Lisa Holley)
Subject: Re: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 930
This email is an auto reply to your recent email to Lisa Holley at
Chameleon Software.
I am on leave until the 16th January 2003 and will not be able to
collect my email until I return.
If you have an urgent request regarding Case Manager, please contact
Integral IT on 02 9264 9606 or by email at support integral-it.com.au.
For all other matters I will respond as soon as possible when I
return on the 16th.
Regards
Lisa Holley
Chameleon Software
lisa chamsoft.com.au
http://www.chamsoft.com.au
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 08:51:14 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Myths
Sharon: Just to clarify, I did not write this directly below, Klaudia did (I
*know* that people walked on the moon in the sixties and seventies):
)
) mysplum wrote: (This is not me speaking).
)
))) It is very diffucult to believe that on such technology (34 years ago)
))) someone has gone to the moon and even came back. If the module ever
))) landed the moon, it is still there.
))) Another myth is Atlantis. If I had to choose, which myth is more
))) believable, I prefer Atlantis.
))
)) Sharon: I'm shocked, speechless. Maybe you are an Anthro double agent?
)) I'm
)) very surprised Klaudia.
)
)
) I've never heard that some anthro has believed that man has not walked
) on the moon. I think that according to their belief we go to the moon
) and even more far away each night.
Sharon: Well, yes Anthroposophists do believe their astral and I bodies take
cosmic journeys while they sleep and frolic with spiritual beings in the
cosmos. These bodies of man journey far beyond the moon, past Saturn and Sun
even, but frankly I've never heard much on moon walking in the sixties and
seventies from Anthroposophists, so I can't say.
Steiner often spoke of "moon men", but mostly he was referring to his moon
period of Earth. He said the Earth has evolved through periods he called--
Saturn, Sun, Moon, Earth and his future periods of Earth are dubbed Jupiter,
Venus and Vulcan. He taught that our moon of today is the discarded remnant
of his Old Moon incarnation of the Earth. Here's what he says:
Steiner: "Occultists know that a fixed star need not always have been a
fixed star; the Sun only became a fixed star after having been a planet.
The Sun we see to-day was once united with the Earth and took with it many
beings who were at a higher stage of development than the beings of the
Earth; just as with the Moon that we see went the inferior portions and the
Moon is therefore a body of discarded dross. The Moon is a planet that has
degenerated; the Sun is a body that has ascended" (p 79 Theosophy of a
Rosicrucian, Steiner, Rudolf Steiner Press London. Lectures from 1907,
reprint 1981).
) I have discussed about the item face to face with US-people twice
) earlier. On the first time I was called as a communist. At second time I
) was called as lesbian.
) And now at third time the top one: I'm called as an Anthro-agent.
) God Bless the Americans!
Sharon: I *asked* if you were an Anthro agent not because of your peculiar
beliefs about moon walking, but because you said you find the Atlantis myth
more credible than moon walking.
(I am a god less S African-American).
Again, here's what you said and my response:
) ) It is very diffucult to believe that on such technology (34 years ago)
) ) someone has gone to the moon and even came back. If the module ever
) ) landed the moon, it is still there.
) ) Another myth is Atlantis. If I had to choose, which myth is more
) ) believable, I prefer Atlantis.
)
) Sharon: I'm shocked, speechless. Maybe you are an Anthro double agent?
) I'm very surprised Klaudia.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:35:54 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: SR-71, Windows (was RE: Myths)
david kehoe wrote:
)I am an aeronautical engineer for the U.S.AF. The technology did exist
)and we did go to the moon and back. You need wake up and take a look at
)what is going on in this world around you, try for starters by looking
)out your window. Do you have still any windows or were they all boarded
)up back in the 20' by your parents. The technology that you are saying
)could not have been around 34 years ago was actually around long before
)that, look at the SR-71, now officially retired. It was built in the
)early 50's. The plans to build it were done in 1948 and 1949. That air
)craft was 60 years ahead in technology compared to what was available to
)the general public, so yes the government had the technology to send a
)man to the moon and back 34 years ago.
SSgT Kehoe
McGuire AFB NJ
)
Klaudia:
You told that SR-71 was built in the early 50's.
On many sources it is told that SR-71's first operational flight was on
1968. Someone is telling bull-shit...
But nobody has ever told that man has visited the moon flying in SR-71,
so SR-71 don't proof anything on this case. And this has nothing to do
with anthroposophy.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/barrier/machines.html
"The two-seat SR-71 was developed in the early 1960s by the U.S. Air
Force as a strategic reconnaissance aircraft. The first flight of an
SR-71 was in 1964 at a classified location in Nevada. The aircraft's
first operational "sortie" was flown out of Okinawa, Japan in 1968. Most
of the SR-71 fleet has now been retired, except for two Blackbirds
currently on loan to NASA's Dryden Flight Research Center where the
aircraft are being used as "test beds" for high altitude research."
david kehoe wrote:
Do you have still any windows or were they all boarded up back in the
20' by your parents.
Klaudia:
Yes, I still have Windows. But hopefully I can throw my Windows to
garbage soon. I'll replace Microsoft Windows with Linux.
http://www.linux.org/
"Linux is a free Unix-type operating system originally created by Linus
Torvalds with the assistance of developers around the world. Developed
under the GNU General Public License , the source code for Linux is
freely available to everyone. Click on the link below to find out more
about the operating system that is causing a revolution in the world of
computers."
I don't want to support any more Bill Gates -mafia.
Linux uses computers much more effectively than Microsoft Windows. Even
old 486-computers can be useful, when Linux-programs are installed
instead Microsoft programs.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:41:44 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Back in the Doctor Steiner (was RE: Myths)
mysplum wrote:
)
) Sharon: Well, yes Anthroposophists do believe their astral and I bodies
) take
) cosmic journeys while they sleep and frolic with spiritual beings in the
) cosmos. These bodies of man journey far beyond the moon, past Saturn and
) Sun
) even, but frankly I've never heard much on moon walking in the sixties
) and
) seventies from Anthroposophists, so I can't say.
)
) Steiner often spoke of "moon men", but mostly he was referring to his
) moon
) period of Earth. He said the Earth has evolved through periods he
) called--
) Saturn, Sun, Moon, Earth and his future periods of Earth are dubbed
) Jupiter,
) Venus and Vulcan. He taught that our moon of today is the discarded
) remnant
) of his Old Moon incarnation of the Earth. Here's what he says:
)
) Steiner: "Occultists know that a fixed star need not always have been a
) fixed star; the Sun only became a fixed star after having been a planet.
) The Sun we see to-day was once united with the Earth and took with it
) many
) beings who were at a higher stage of development than the beings of the
) Earth; just as with the Moon that we see went the inferior portions and
) the
) Moon is therefore a body of discarded dross. The Moon is a planet that
) has
) degenerated; the Sun is a body that has ascended" (p 79 Theosophy of a
) Rosicrucian, Steiner, Rudolf Steiner Press London. Lectures from 1907,
) reprint 1981).
Klaudia:
Thanks to You for guiding the conversation back to anthroposophy.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:41:47 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Back in the Doctor Steiner (was RE: Myths)
mysplum wrote:
)
) Sharon: Well, yes Anthroposophists do believe their astral and I bodies
) take
) cosmic journeys while they sleep and frolic with spiritual beings in the
) cosmos. These bodies of man journey far beyond the moon, past Saturn and
) Sun
) even, but frankly I've never heard much on moon walking in the sixties
) and
) seventies from Anthroposophists, so I can't say.
)
) Steiner often spoke of "moon men", but mostly he was referring to his
) moon
) period of Earth. He said the Earth has evolved through periods he
) called--
) Saturn, Sun, Moon, Earth and his future periods of Earth are dubbed
) Jupiter,
) Venus and Vulcan. He taught that our moon of today is the discarded
) remnant
) of his Old Moon incarnation of the Earth. Here's what he says:
)
) Steiner: "Occultists know that a fixed star need not always have been a
) fixed star; the Sun only became a fixed star after having been a planet.
) The Sun we see to-day was once united with the Earth and took with it
) many
) beings who were at a higher stage of development than the beings of the
) Earth; just as with the Moon that we see went the inferior portions and
) the
) Moon is therefore a body of discarded dross. The Moon is a planet that
) has
) degenerated; the Sun is a body that has ascended" (p 79 Theosophy of a
) Rosicrucian, Steiner, Rudolf Steiner Press London. Lectures from 1907,
) reprint 1981).
Klaudia:
Thanks to You for guiding the conversation back to anthroposophy.
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 931
-- Topica Digest --
Rabbit-Proof Fence
By pstaud hotmail.com
SV: Rabbit-Proof Fence
By gbg2013 minpost.nu
far right spirituality then and now
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: SV: Rabbit-Proof Fence
By pstaud hotmail.com
eliminating Jewry
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Rabbit-Proof Fence
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 17:19:14 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Rabbit-Proof Fence
Hello everybody,
I wanted to recommend a new movie to those of you who read this list and
have a generally positive evaluation of Steiner's teachings on racial
harmony. The movie is from Australia and is currently showing in US
theaters; it's called Rabbit-Proof Fence and is evidently based on real
events from the middle of the twentieth century. I can't vouch for the
movie's historical accuracy, and I'd be interested to hear what Australian
list members thought of it and its reception there. I didn't think it was a
great film, but I was impressed by its portrayal of well-intentioned racism,
embodied in the figure of an Australian government official (played by
Kenneth Branagh) whose title is Chief Protector of Aborigines. Branagh's
character espouses a version of benevolent racism that mistakes itself for
anti-racism, one that is based on the goal of assimilating non-white people
into white society through intermarriage. At one point the film offers a
striking visual image of this government-sponsored plan for 'helping'
natives by gradually eliminating their native heritage. While watching the
movie, I couldn't help thinking of the various debates I've had with
anthroposophists over the years about racial character and the universal
human and so forth. Whether you share David's approach or Charlie's approach
to the question of "blood mixing", I urge you to see the movie and reflect
on its implications.
Greetings for the new year,
Peter Staudenmaier
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Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 00:39:45 +0100
From: "Lennart Sundstr=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=m" (gbg2013 minpost.nu)
Subject: SV: Rabbit-Proof Fence
Hi Peter,
so the human race is one - as in universal?
see you,
Lennart
----------
)Fr?n: Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com)
)Till: waldorf-critics topica.com
)?mne: Rabbit-Proof Fence
)Datum: s?n 5 jan 2003 00.19
)
) While watching the
) movie, I couldn't help thinking of the various debates I've had with
) anthroposophists over the years about racial character and the universal
) human and so forth.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 17:40:27 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: far right spirituality then and now
Hello again all,
Below is a link to an interview with Mattias Gardell, a Swedish scholar
whose work on the contemporary far right I appreciate greatly. Historians
who study the cultural currents in early twentieth century Europe and North
America are often struck by unsettling parallels between our own time and
the social and intellectual developments that came to prominence a century
ago. One of those parallels is the increasingly common marriage of
alternative spiritual traditions with far-right politics. Gardell gives a
fine overview of one wing of this phenomenon, the racist variants of
neo-paganism. Near the end of the interview he mentions anthroposophy in
passing as part of a similar ideological ferment that marked the beginning
of the twentieth century. I recommend the interview to anyone who wants to
understand how progressive cultural impulses can turn into dangerous and
regressive ones.
http://www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-4q9.html
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 18:07:39 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: SV: Rabbit-Proof Fence
Hi Lennart,
)so the human race is one - as in universal?
I suppose that depends on what you mean by one and universal. I think there
is one human species, and that what we call race is a way of categorizing
some of the variation within humankind. I don't believe that there is such a
thing as the universal human; there are particular human beings and human
groups, each of them just as human as any other, but there is no universal
standard of humanness against which any of them could be judged.
Steiner, on the other hand, taught that racial diversity is an unfortunate
detour on the path of evolution toward the universal human, a sort of glitch
in cosmic development. He coupled these teachings with various
pronouncements about the worth of all racial and ethnic groups. The reason
why I consider Steiner's version of universalism to be a prime example of
false universalism is that it is actually built around one particular
perspective, that of white Europeans (and more specifically Germans). We've
been over this ground before on the list, but I'd be happy to explain
further if you'd like.
I mentioned the movie because a number of the anthroposophists I've sparred
with have put forward the notion that racism must involve some sort of
deliberate malice and those who are well-intentioned cannot be racist. This
is a deeply mistaken notion and makes it very difficult to grasp the
significance of anthroposophy's racial teachings. In addition, some
anthroposophists believe that Steiner's views on "blood mixing" are
anti-racist because, on their reading, he says that this mixing is a part of
the evolution of humankind toward the universal human. The movie offers an
excellent counterexample: an ideology of "blood mixing" that is patently
racist. I think that a similar sort of confusion is at work in the
predominant anthroposophist understanding of Steiner's views on Jews, and I
will try to address that topic in my next post.
Yours for human diversity,
Peter Staudenmaier
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 19:06:33 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: eliminating Jewry
Charlie said of Steiner:
))I certainly don't think that he meant that Jews had no right to exist.
And Diana replied:
)Not Jews, but Jewry. (Well, Peter has argued that Steiner did indeed mean
)Jews should not exist; but I would like to point out that even if one takes
)"Jewry" to mean a cultural/religious phenomenon rather than persons to be
)eliminated, this is still an appalling statement.) Though I don't think
)Steiner thought Jews should be killed, it's hard to say what he thought
)Jews actually ought to do about their own obsoleteness, or (a more
)dangerous line of thought) what anyone else ought to do about it. I recall
)a Steiner defender here once saying that Steiner didn't think anything
)should be done, the Jews would have to "want to change" on their own. I
)suppose they could renounce their beliefs and cultural heritage, not call
)themselves Jews anymore. Or would it be enough if they would just stop
)"looking back"? Would you be comfortable, Charlie, with that interpretion
)of what Jews ought to do to rid the world of "Jewry" - giving you the
)benefit of the doubt that I'm sure you don't think anyone *else* should try
)to rid the world of Jewry?
I agree with Diana that Steiner didn't think Jews should be killed. It's
hard to keep this in mind, since we understandably view the history of
antisemitism through the lens of the holocaust, but before the 1930's most
antisemites didn't think Jews should be killed. Instead of favoring the
physical annihilation of Jews, the majority of antisemites in Steiner's day
favored the cultural elimination of Jews and Jewishness. That was Steiner's
own position as well.
Steiner's version of antisemitism is sometimes called assimilationist
antisemitism, a term which is not meant to suggest that all versions of
assimilationism are antisemitic (they aren't). The positions that Steiner
espoused both early in his career and after his theosophical conversion
were, at this level, fairly widespread among German intellectuals at the
time, though the later Steiner dressed up his antisemitism in a
distinctively anthroposophical vocabulary ("the Jewish mission is no longer
necessary in evolution" etc.).
There are quite a few very valuable scholarly studies of the phenomenon of
assimilationist antisemitism. For starters, I recommend chapter 3 of George
Mosse's book Germans and Jews. Mosse explains that from the point of view of
assimilationist antisemites, "The good Jew is one who ceases to be a Jew.
The bad Jew is the Jew per se, who refuses complete assimilation." (p. 71) I
also recommend Jacob Katz's work, for example his essay "German Culture and
the Jews" in Reinharz and Schatzberg, eds., The Jewish Response to German
Culture. Katz notes that "even during the liberal era the Jewish
contribution to German culture was acceptable only if it succeeded in being
not Jewish." (p. 99)
Even a number of German opponents of antisemitism shared this perspective
(indeed Steiner himself held to a similar line during the brief phase around
1900 when he publically opposed antisemitism); the late 19th century
historian Theodor Mommsen is an example. In one of the best studies of the
topic, Uriel Tal writes: "Mommsen did not have in mind the integration of
Jews within a pluralistic society which ensured the coexistence of various
hereditary groups as part of one united nationality, but rather an
integration within a uniform, homogenous society, and this meant, as far as
the Jews were concerned, extinction as the price for integration." (Tal,
Christians and Jews in Germany, p. 53)
Many anthroposophists today insist that Steiner's position was shared by
assimilationist German Jews of his era. This is completely false and one of
the more troubling instances of historical ignorance that I've encountered
in my debates with Steiner's followers. For an excellent antidote to this
notion, I recommend chapter 5 on "The Search for an Assimilationist
Identity" in Donald Niewyk's book The Jews in Weimar Germany. Niewyk's
extremely well-documented study notes that "the great majority of German
Jews" explicitly rejected the kind of thinking that Steiner promoted (p.
100).
On this question, I also recommend Alfred Low's book Jews in the Eyes of the
Germans. Low writes that many non-Jewish Germans demanded that their Jewish
fellow citizens "completely relinquish Jewish identity, irrespective of
whether it was primarily religious, cultural, or national in character. The
German Jew was to shed his Judaic heritage, cease to be a Jew, and eagerly
embrace Germandom." (p. 413)
I hope that this material helps to clarify why Rudolf Steiner taught that
Jewry had no right to exist, and how he thought it was to be eliminated.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 22:28:53 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Rabbit-Proof Fence
Peter S. wrote:
) I wanted to recommend a new movie to those of you who read this list and
) have a generally positive evaluation of Steiner's teachings on racial
) harmony. The movie is from Australia and is currently showing in US
) theaters; it's called Rabbit-Proof Fence and is evidently based on real
) events from the middle of the twentieth century.
I second that motion. I saw this film a month ago and was struck by a very
*real* distinction between the concepts of "racism" and "bigotry." A couple
of scenes made me think of Steiner. I went to the film with a good friend
visiting from Africa. He works with an environmental NPO there and spends
most of his time in the rain forest in Cameroon and Congo. Luckily, we
found an all night cafe after the film as there was much to discuss. The
film was controversial in Australia.
-Walden
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 932
-- Topica Digest --
Re: SV: Rabbit-Proof Fence
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Rabbit-Proof Fence
By mysplum earthlink.net
Marie Sievers-Steiner
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Re: Rabbit-Proof Fence
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Is Waldorf about the children or the teachers?
By dan dandugan.com
Festival of 3 Kings (January 6)
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Rabbit-Proof Fence
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 09:42:30 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: SV: Rabbit-Proof Fence
on 1/4/03 4:07 PM, Peter Staudenmaier at pstaud hotmail.com wrote:
) Hi Lennart,
)
)) so the human race is one - as in universal?
)
)Peter S: I suppose that depends on what you mean by one and universal. I think
there is one human species, and that what we call race is a way of
categorizing
) some of the variation within humankind. I don't believe that there is such a
) thing as the universal human; there are particular human beings and human
) groups, each of them just as human as any other, but there is no universal
) standard of humanness against which any of them could be judged.
Sharon: There's been a lot in the news lately about chimpanzees and
"culture," which helps explain diversity. Researchers have documented
behaviors of groups of chimps that vary from group to group. In other words,
one group of chimps discovered that they could suck bugs out of a nest with
straws--so they do this--while another group hasn't figured that out but has
developed other habits. It really helps me to understand human diversity
when I think of the chimps. Each group has developed their own way of doing
things, their own views of the world, their own languages that are common to
that particular group because they teach each other. Despite the variation
of "culture", chimps are chimps. Naked apes and chimps are 99% identical.
Humans might wear different clothes, eat different foods, speak different
languages, but we are all Homo sapiens. Even though we've developed our own
ways of doing things, or our own realities, we still have everything in
common with our fellow humans. We also learn from each other and adopt
certain habits from each other, like what religion we believe. As you say
Peter, "there is no universal standard of humanness against which any of
them could be judged". Just as you can't judge one group of chimps as being
more "chimpish." A chimp is a chimp, and a human is a human.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 10:10:15 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Rabbit-Proof Fence
on 1/4/03 10:28 PM, walden at awaldenpond shaw.ca wrote:
) Peter S. wrote:
)) I wanted to recommend a new movie to those of you who read this list and
)) have a generally positive evaluation of Steiner's teachings on racial
)) harmony. The movie is from Australia and is currently showing in US
)) theaters; it's called Rabbit-Proof Fence and is evidently based on real
)) events from the middle of the twentieth century.
)
) I second that motion. I saw this film a month ago and was struck by a very
) *real* distinction between the concepts of "racism" and "bigotry." A couple
) of scenes made me think of Steiner.
Sharon: I saw the film advertised in an Amnesty International publication I
received in the mail and have been watching for it locally. Now I really
*must* see it! thanks for recommending it.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:27:54 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Marie Sievers-Steiner
http://www.templelodge.com/pages/titles.html
On the page mentioed above is also a book:
"Marie Steiner
Her Place in World Karma
Hans Peter van Manen
translated by J. Collis
Van Manen presents the results of his own carefully considered thoughts
on Marie Steiner's karmic past. In doing so, he links her to a
well-known individuality connected with Aristotle in ancient Greece.
1995; 48pp; 21.5 x 13.5cm; paperback"
Has anyone read that? What individuality it means?
I have understood that RS was incarnated as Aristotle and his soulmate
Ita Wegman as Alexander the Great, but what on earth cute Marie was
doing there? And what was Marie's place on World Karma?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 00:25:41 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Rabbit-Proof Fence
G'day all,
even though I have not seen the film that Peter S and now Walden have
recommended I would like to make some comments. The film has been widely
reviewed in Australia. The film is based on historical events which are now
reffered to as "The Stolen Generation". The Human Rights and Equal
Opportunity Commission in Australia held hearings and published a report
which is available on the web at
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/hreoc/stolen/
I am sure that much of this will not be pleasant reading. I do not know how
historically accurate the particular story in the Rabbit Proof Fence is. It
is absolutely clear that many aboriginal children were forcibly removed from
their families and sent to foster parents and to orphanages and the like. I
have no doubt that many of the people who were reponsible for this thought
that they were doing the best thing for those children at the time. Some who
are still living continue to claim that the forcible removal was
appropriate. It may be that in some cases they were right. It is certain
that in a large number of cases they were not right.
There has been a very large amount of discussion of this topic in Australia
over the last few years. The film has played a relatively small part in this
discussion, not because of any failing in the film, but because the
discussion was so widespread already.
The Australian Aborigines have suffered and continue to suffer perhaps more
than any other recognisable group on earth from bigotry and from benevolent
racism. I think that this is improving, but I also think that while white
Australians are happy to support government programs to improve the lot of
Aborigines in Australia, few of us welcome Aboriginal neighbours with open
arms.
I also claim ignorance and stupidity in terms of what might be best for the
future. Is it possible that Aboriginal culture could coexist with the
dominant western culture in Australia? Should Aborigines be completely
integrated into that western culture?
I have no idea, but I do know we have a lot of work to do to remove the
bigotry and the benvolent racism from Australia.
Check out the film. I'm sure the contryside is authentic. The film maker is
well known in Australia. The fence itself is real although I don't believe
it worked.
See you,
Peter F.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:40:28 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Is Waldorf about the children or the teachers?
Someone wrote to PLANS after reading our web site, commenting that we
didn't include this information:
) Teachers are on a path of spiritual initiation. Their students
) represent to them undeveloped aspects of their own soul and spirit.
) That is the true basis of the children staying with the same teacher
) year after year. When the teacher notices difficulties or
) 'unacceptable' expressions from their students, they use it as a mirror
) to repair that weakness within themselves. In so doing, the teacher is
) able to climb the spiritual ladder of anthroposophical development.
) That is why it is so difficult to get a responce to difficulties that a
) child may be having in the classroom, wether schoolastic or behavioral
) in nature. They are not concerned with the development of the child,
) only the progression of the adult anthroposophist.
I was just reading the current issue of *Gateways: The Journal of the
Waldorf Early Childhood Association of North America*, and in an
article by Margaret Meyerkort, she says:
"The self-education of the caregiver is all important--the heartbeat
of an ever-evolving, child-centered education. The adult, like the
child, needs to be in a process of continual development, observing
her own struggles, so that she can do justice to the child as an
effective relator. The children are best served when caregivers share
and support each others' activities in self-education rather than
worrying together over a difficult child." (Issue 43, p. 20)
Self-contradictory, isn't it. She calls it "child-centered," but then
says "the children are best served when caregivers share and support
each others' activities in self education rather than worrying
together over a difficult child."
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:24:02 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Festival of 3 Kings (January 6)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
January 6 is the Festival of the Three Kings, at the end of the 12
days of Christmas, and this festival has special significance in
anthroposophy. See
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Festivals/Christmas/19041230p01.html
According to Steiner the Festival of the Three Kings will take on
greater significance when its symbolism becomes understood. Waldorf
teachers I have known thought it was very important to observe this
festival in the classroom in some way; in fact I recall a teacher
saying it was more important than Christmas. Though some years it
will fall during the winter break, this year it does not, the kids
will be in school, and I expect it will be observed in many Waldorf
classrooms tomorrow.
According to Steiner the meaning of this festival is in its
connection to the evolution of the races. The 3 kings are Caspar, who
is African and whose skin is black; Melchoir, who is European and
whose skin is white; and Balthasar, who is Asian (Indian) and whose
skin is yellow. Yes, it is Steiner who notes the importance of their
skin color. The 3 kings or Magi represent the three preceding races
or epochs of culture. "The remaining survivors of the Lemurian race
are black; those of the Atlantean race are yellow; and the
representatives of the Fifth Root Race, the Post-Atlantean or Aryan
race, are white."
Thus the gifts they bring the Christ child are symbolic. "The
European (Melchoir) brings gold, the symbol of wisdom, of
intelligence which comes to expression paramountly in the Fifth Root
Race." (Meaning modern-day whites.) The Asian, Balthasar, brings
frankincense. Since he represents the Atlanteans, of which Asian
peoples are today's left over representatives, the frankincense
represents the "suggestive influence" or "universal hypnosis" the
Atlanteans experienced in their relationship with the "Godhead." (I
think this is connected to the hazy clairvoyance thing.)
Finallly the black man brings myrrh, "the symbol of dying, of death."
"Myrrh is the symbol of the dying of the lower life and the
resurrection of the higher life. It is offered by the Initiate
representing the Third Root Race (Lemurian)."
He also connects the Festival of the 3 Kings (or Epiphany) to the
Egyptian festival of Osiris. Osiris disappeared in the middle of
Lemurian epoch, Steiner says, and Christ is the resurrected Osiris.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:20:18 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Rabbit-Proof Fence
Peter Farrell, you wrote,
)The Australian Aborigines have suffered and continue to suffer
)perhaps more than any other recognisable group on earth from bigotry
)and from benevolent racism. I think that this is improving, but I
)also think that while white Australians are happy to support
)government programs to improve the lot of Aborigines in Australia,
)few of us welcome Aboriginal neighbours with open arms.
)
)I also claim ignorance and stupidity in terms of what might be best
)for the future. Is it possible that Aboriginal culture could coexist
)with the dominant western culture in Australia? Should Aborigines be
)completely integrated into that western culture?
)I have no idea, but I do know we have a lot of work to do to remove
)the bigotry and the benvolent racism from Australia.
I was introduced to the problem of aboriginal/technological culture
clash when I was stationed in Alaska with the army (1965-67). My
friend the drama professor at the U of A was involved in a program
(COPAN) that was attempting to improve the drop-out rate of Native
Americans at the university. Natives from remote villages would come
to school and live in modern society. Then they would go home where
their grandmother was chewing skins. Teenagers have enough problems
without having to deal with a 3000-years-plus culture clash. Few were
able to negotiate it.
Another situation in Alaska at that time was a sudden increase in
deaths of trappers from exposure. Dog teams are a lot of work to
maintain. Snowmobiles are a lot less trouble, and get you there fast.
But dog teams don't break down.
These stories made me aware of a compassionate dilemma. Imagine
winter is longer than expected, and people are starving in a native
village a few miles from our modern town. I would feel obliged to
take them food. Christ said to love your neighbor as yourself. If
someone said we had to leave them alone to preserve their culture, I
would call that social Darwinism--it would be like Steiner saying the
natives were destined to die out.
In the Star Trek series they have a "prime directive" that the
civilizations they encounter are not to be contaminated. The conflict
of this directive with compassion leads to dramatic crises.
So I guess I could be called an assimlationist of sorts. I don't
think it's fair to wall off aboriginal cultures, even though contact
surely means destruction of a lot of what they value. But I would
never want hinder their preservation of their own culture, as
happened when Native Americans were sent to schools where they were
forbidden to speak their language. Same thing happened in Australia.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 933
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Rabbit-Proof Fence
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 12:50:34 +1030
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: Re: Rabbit-Proof Fence
)Dan Dugan:
)These stories made me aware of a compassionate dilemma. Imagine winter is
)longer than expected, and people are starving in a native village a few
)miles from our modern town. I would feel obliged to take them food. Christ
)said to love your neighbor as yourself. If someone said we had to leave
)them alone to preserve their culture, I would call that social
)Darwinism--it would be like Steiner saying the natives were destined to
)die out.
)
)In the Star Trek series they have a "prime directive" that the
)civilizations they encounter are not to be contaminated. The conflict of
)this directive with compassion leads to dramatic crises.
)
)So I guess I could be called an assimlationist of sorts. I don't think
)it's fair to wall off aboriginal cultures, even though contact surely
)means destruction of a lot of what they value.
To treat people as members of the human race worthy of participating in its
interconnections is FAR from the same thing as requiring them to
"assimilate" into another culture, thereby losing their own.
I don't think anyone would claim that the Native Americans who brought food
to the first Europeans on the North American continent, during the first
hard winters, when they had not yet learned the agricultural techniques
suited to their new home, were attempting to "assimilate" the Europeans
into their own tribal cultures. I do not have to require my neighbor to be
like me, or to assimilate into my culture, in order to help him or her.
)But I would never want hinder their preservation of their own culture, as
)happened when Native Americans were sent to schools where they were
)forbidden to speak their language. Same thing happened in Australia.
And Wales, as well; until very recently, it was illegal to teach in Welsh
in the public schools in Wales, and the language nearly died out as a
result of other government-imposed and enforced "assimilationist" policies.
I think that it's very important that we all remember that this kind of
bias, and discrimination, isn't limited to situations which involve an
issue of color or the vast differences in "ethnic heritage" that we are
accustomed to thinking of when we think of racial and cultural
discrimination - this is white residents of the British Isles
discriminating against other white residents of the British Isles -
residents of the very same island, in fact.
All it takes is thinking "we are us and they are them, and our way is
better, and if they can't see that yet, it's because they haven't had our
advantages, so we will give them those advantages (by force if necessary) -
now why are they so ungrateful???" As Peter Farrell and the movie under
discussion both pointed out, this was the point of view that led to the
creation of the "Stolen Generation" of indigenous people, here in Australia.
Freedom cannot be enforced on a person; therefore, anything which has to
be enforced on a person isn't truly freedom. Sometimes, rarely, it can be
a part of a road to freedom, in a situation similar to those in which a
kidnap victim or drowning person must be knocked out in order to prevent
them from hindering their rescue, in their panic. One might also consider
detoxification programs, or inpatient mental health facilities which take a
person in if they are suffering from problems, long enough to get them to a
state where they can make rational decisions for themselves, to fall into
the same category. But we don't expect people to spend a lifetime knocked
out by the lifeguard, or in the Betty Ford clinic. Sooner or later, we
expect them to come to dry land and walk on their own two feet, and take
responsibility for their own lives and freedoms.
That can't be done, culturally, if the tool that was supposed to facilitate
the gaining of freedom instead served to extinguish a culture. If a child
is forced to learn one language INSTEAD of another, rather than in addition
to it, they LOSE freedom, freedom that they could so easily have GAINED,
instead, simply by being taught *both* languages while they were young
enough for them to have the capacity to easily learn to think in any
language they learned, as well as to speak it.
In my experience, it is that enforcement of culture that is generally
assumed to be meant, at least here in Australia, when "assimilationist"
policies are under discussion. There is a vast difference between
desegregation and assimilation.
It can be thought of as the difference between the old US self-image
metaphor, of the "melting pot", where all ethnicities go in and re-emerge
as a new dissolved solution, called American, and the "new" metaphor (which
I first encountered in the late 70s or early 80s) of the "tossed salad", in
which each ingredient retains its own unique identity, and the flavour of
the whole is the result of the way that these unique elements come
together. To desegregate means that we have the glory of the tossed salad,
instead of having a mound of homogenous shredded iceberg
styrofoam-I-mean-lettuce, which must by all means be kept separate from the
tomatoes. To assimilate means that we take that mixed salad, and boil it
into a newly homogenized mound of greenish-brown sludge. I think it's
obvious which approach I consider to be preferable.
Nowhere in the non-assimilationist point of view is it mandated that one
refrain from helping one's neighbour out of compassion. On the other hand,
if he's starving, and deathly allergic to peanuts, trying to force-feed him
peanut butter sandwiches could take him from starving to dead, however good
your intentions - so it's important to remember that helping your neighbour
out of compassion only works if what you are offering is actually of help
to your neighbour. Enforcing on him what works for you is no guarantee
that the things that you *think* will help will actually do so.
THAT, in my opinion, is what has confused people into thinking that
cultural preservation means rejection of contact with that which is outside
of the culture - so much of that contact has happened under circumstances
where it was *enforced* that, as a result, people (mostly on the outsides
of these situations) have gotten confused. It is my view that these
confused people have begun to believe that it was the contact, and any
desire to help, which was being rejected, when instead what was *actually*
being rejected was the enforcement of measures which, while they may have
been intended to be helpful, were actually non-functional for the
recipients, often to the point of being detrimental or even harmful.
Willow Firesong
---
A belief is a conclusion to which one subscribes strongly: "Our belief in
any particular natural law cannot have a safer basis than our unsuccessful
critical attempts to refute it" (Karl Popper).
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 934
-- Topica Digest --
Peter S.
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
Re: Peter S.
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:40:25 -0800
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
Subject: Peter S.
Peter, I couldn't get the link to the Mattias Gardell interview to
work - any idea where the page went?
http://www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-4q9.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sarina McDonald
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:54:00 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Peter S.
Sarina McDonald wrote:
)Peter, I couldn't get the link to the Mattias Gardell interview to
)work - any idea where the page went?
)
)http://www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-4q9.html
It just opened for me, must have been internet weather.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 935
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Peter S.
By pstaud hotmail.com
(NNA news) Anthroposophical Society in Belgium regrets losing its
case against
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 09:38:28 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Peter S.
Hi Sarina,
)Sarina McDonald wrote:
)
))Peter, I couldn't get the link to the Mattias Gardell interview to
))work - any idea where the page went?
))
))http://www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-4q9.html
)
)It just opened for me, must have been internet weather.
)
)-Dan Dugan
Yep, looks to me like it's working now. If you still have trouble, try going
straight to the Southern Poverty Law Center site:
http://www.splcenter.org
They have a very good search system on the site; just type in "Gardell" (or,
for that matter, "anthroposophy") and you'll get to the interview. The SPLC
is perhaps the largest and most aggressive US organization working against
hate groups (and I very much encourage anyone who thinks that PLANS is a
hate group to consult the SPLC's definition). By the way, Gardell has a new
book due out from Duke University Press in June 2003 titled Gods of the
Blood. Anybody who has read Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's book Black Sun has
already gotten a preview of Gardell's latest research (Gardell let
Goodrick-Clarke consult his materials). I don't know whether Gardell's new
book will discuss anthroposophy, but I recommend just about anything he
writes.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 17:12:14 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: (NNA news) Anthroposophical Society in Belgium regrets losing its
case against anti-sect legislation
[In Europe "sect" means the same as "cult" in the U.S. - dd]
Copyright 2003 News Network Anthroposophy Limited. All rights reserved.
The following material may be republished without the prior consent
of News Network Anthroposophy. News Network Anthroposophy does,
however, require acknowledgement of the source and, if provided, the
author of the material.
+ + + + +
NNA-N A C H R I C H T E N
Anthroposophical Society in Belgium regrets losing its case against
anti-sect legislation
Ghent, 9 January (NNA) - The Anthroposophical Society in Belgium has
expressed its regret that the European Court of Human Rights in
Strasbourg dismissed its case against anti-sect legislation in
Belgium.
The Belgian law led to the establishment of an "Information and
Advice Centre on Harmful Sects".
"We very much regret this judgement and hope that the Centre, to
which we have already given various types of documentation about the
anthroposophical movement, will not just provide wrong or negative
information, as has already been done by the French and Belgian
authorities for example," Luc Vandecasteele from the Anthroposophical
Society said in a statement.
According to Vandecasteele, the Society's case before the human
rights court was raised to voice concerns about potential
discrimination against smaller groups with a specific world view,
which could now be designated as harmful by a body outside the normal
judicial process on the basis of non-verified information.
In its judgement, the Court declared that the conditions of Articles
34 and 35 of the [European human rights] convention had not been
complied with, Vandecasteele said. But the court had not specified
whether the case had not been brought in time, the national appeal
procedures had not been sufficiently exhausted - both conditions had
been met, according to Vandecasteele - or whether the party bringing
the action had not been discriminated against.
Article 34 of the human rights convention specifies who may make
application to the European Court of Human Rights, while Article 35
lays down the criteria for the admissibility of cases.
ENDS
+ + + + +
Item reference number: N030109-01EN
Date: 9 January 2003
More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 936
-- Topica Digest --
virus alert
By charlie morrison5.fsnet.co.uk
Re: virus alert
By oscar001 earthlink.net
(NNA) Hamburger Waldorf schools in financial difficulty
By dan dandugan.com
Re: virus alert
By charlie morrison5.fsnet.co.uk
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:34:19 -0000
From: "Charlie Morrison" (charlie morrison5.fsnet.co.uk)
Subject: virus alert
My wife has just received an e-mail an extract of which you'll find below.
It concerns a virus with the file name jdbgmgr.exe. I have just found and
deleted the file from our computer, so I suggest everyone check their hard
drives just in case.
Charlie.
***
)THIS IS URGENT. A virus has been passed on to us by a contact. Our
) ) address book in turn has been infected. Since you are in my address book
) ) there is a chance that you will find it in your computer also.
) )
) ) I followed the instructions below and eradicated the virus easily.
) ) The virus (called jdbgmgr.exe) is not detected by Norton or Macafee
) ) anti-virus system. This virus sits quietly for 14 days before damaging
)the
) ) system. It is sent automically by messenger and the address book,
)whether
) ) or not you send e-mails to your contacts.
) ) Here's how to check for the virus and get rid of it:
) )
) ) 1. Go to start, Find or Search option
) )
) ) 2. In the file/folders option, type the name : jdbgmgr.exe
) )
) ) 3. Be sure you search your C-drive and all the sub-files and any other
) ) drives you may have
) )
) ) 4. Click : "Find now"
) )
) ) 5. The virus has a grey teddy bear icon with the name jdbghgr.exe - DO
)NOT
) ) OPEN IT!
) )
) ) 6. Go to edit (on the menu bar) and choose SELECT ALL to highlight the
)file
) ) without opening it.
) )
) ) 7. Now go to the File (on the menu bar) and select DELETE. It will then
)go
) ) to the recycle bin.
) )
) ) 8. Go to the Recycle Bin and delete it there as well.
) )
) ) IF YOU FIND THE VIRUS, you must contact all the people in your address
) ) book, so that they can eradicate it in their own address books.
) )
) ) To do this:
) )
) ) 1. Open a new e-mail message
) )
) ) 2. Click the icon of the address book next to the "To"
) )
) ) 3. Highlight evey name and add to "BCC"
) )
) ) 4. Copy this message, enter subject and paste to e-mail, and send
) )
) ) Remember you have to do this quickly.
) )
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:35:41 -0800
From: "NJS" (oscar001 earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: virus alert
According to Symantec, this is a hoax:
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/jdbgmgr.exe.file.hoax.html
It won't hurt your system to delete the file if you have already done so,
unless you use "Microsoft Visual J++ 1.1 to develop Java programs on Windows
XP, Windows NT 4.0, Windows 98 Second Edition, Windows 98, or Windows 95."
Instructions to recover are located at the link above.
Jeanine
----- Original Message -----
From: charles morrison (charlie morrison5.fsnet.co.uk)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 7:34 AM
Subject: virus alert
) My wife has just received an e-mail an extract of which you'll find below.
) It concerns a virus with the file name jdbgmgr.exe. I have just found and
) deleted the file from our computer, so I suggest everyone check their hard
) drives just in case.
)
) Charlie.
)
) ***
) )THIS IS URGENT. A virus has been passed on to us by a contact. Our
) ) ) address book in turn has been infected. Since you are in my address
book
) ) ) there is a chance that you will find it in your computer also.
) ) )
) ) ) I followed the instructions below and eradicated the virus easily.
) ) ) The virus (called jdbgmgr.exe) is not detected by Norton or Macafee
) ) ) anti-virus system. This virus sits quietly for 14 days before damaging
) )the
) ) ) system. It is sent automically by messenger and the address book,
) )whether
) ) ) or not you send e-mails to your contacts.
) ) ) Here's how to check for the virus and get rid of it:
) ) )
) ) ) 1. Go to start, Find or Search option
) ) )
) ) ) 2. In the file/folders option, type the name : jdbgmgr.exe
) ) )
) ) ) 3. Be sure you search your C-drive and all the sub-files and any other
) ) ) drives you may have
) ) )
) ) ) 4. Click : "Find now"
) ) )
) ) ) 5. The virus has a grey teddy bear icon with the name jdbghgr.exe - DO
) )NOT
) ) ) OPEN IT!
) ) )
) ) ) 6. Go to edit (on the menu bar) and choose SELECT ALL to highlight the
) )file
) ) ) without opening it.
) ) )
) ) ) 7. Now go to the File (on the menu bar) and select DELETE. It will
then
) )go
) ) ) to the recycle bin.
) ) )
) ) ) 8. Go to the Recycle Bin and delete it there as well.
) ) )
) ) ) IF YOU FIND THE VIRUS, you must contact all the people in your address
) ) ) book, so that they can eradicate it in their own address books.
) ) )
) ) ) To do this:
) ) )
) ) ) 1. Open a new e-mail message
) ) )
) ) ) 2. Click the icon of the address book next to the "To"
) ) )
) ) ) 3. Highlight evey name and add to "BCC"
) ) )
) ) ) 4. Copy this message, enter subject and paste to e-mail, and send
) ) )
) ) ) Remember you have to do this quickly.
) ) )
) )
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:52:05 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: (NNA) Hamburger Waldorf schools in financial difficulty
Copyright 2003 News Network Anthroposophy Limited. All rights reserved.
The following material may be republished without the prior consent
of News Network Anthroposophy. News Network Anthroposophy does,
however, require acknowledgement of the source and, if provided, the
author of the material.
+ + + + +
NNA-N E W S
Hamburger Waldorf schools in financial difficulty
Hamburg, 10 January (NNA) - The six Rudolf Steiner schools in Hamburg
are facing increasing financial difficulties.
According to a report in the newspaper "Hamburger Abendblatt" of 7
January, the situation of the schools has "dramatically worsened" as
a result of the austerity policy of the centre-right regional
government. The schools have been told that their government funding
will be cut by 10.2 percent in line with savings imposed on all state
schools in the city-state.
"We would actually need an increase in parental contributions of 30
percent to balance our budget," the paper quoted the bursar of the
Wandsbek Rudolf Steiner School, Matthias Farr, as saying.
As a result of the need to make savings, staff costs at the school
are to be cut by two percent. Waldorf teachers already earn
considerably less than their counterparts in state schools.
The dispute between the authorities and the independent schools has
been ongoing for some time - and not only in Hamburg. (See also NNA
report N020208-01EN Independent schools in the German regions of
Hesse and Hamburg demand proper funding, 8.2.2002).
Almost a year ago the parents' initiative "Improvement of State
Funding for Independent Schools in Hamburg", of which the Rudolf
Steiner schools are also a member, complained that the
recently-elected regional government had failed to keep to its
election promises in its proposed 2002 budget: "Despite trumpeting
election promises that cost unit rates per pupil would be increased
to 80% [of those for pupils in state schools], the new [centre-right]
senate is only implementing what the previous coalition of Social
Democrats and Greens had already agreed," the parents' initiative
said at the time.
In Hesse, too, there have been disputes between the Working Group of
Independent Schools (AGFS), which includes the Regional Association
of Free Waldorf Schools, and the regional government over a real
improvement in conditions for independent schools.
ENDS
+ + + + +
Item reference number: N030110-01EN
Date: 10 January 2003
More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 06:43:32 -0000
From: "Charlie Morrison" (charlie morrison5.fsnet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: virus alert
Thanks for pointing this out to me Jeanine and please accept my apologies
everyone. It was the shifty looking teddy bear that threw me.
warm regards,
Charlie.
----- Original Message -----
From: "NJS" (oscar001 earthlink.net)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: virus alert
) According to Symantec, this is a hoax:
)
) http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/jdbgmgr.exe.file.hoax.html
)
)
) It won't hurt your system to delete the file if you have already done so,
) unless you use "Microsoft Visual J++ 1.1 to develop Java programs on
Windows
) XP, Windows NT 4.0, Windows 98 Second Edition, Windows 98, or Windows 95."
) Instructions to recover are located at the link above.
)
) Jeanine
)
) ----- Original Message -----
) From: charles morrison (charlie morrison5.fsnet.co.uk)
) To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
) Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 7:34 AM
) Subject: virus alert
)
)
) ) My wife has just received an e-mail an extract of which you'll find
below.
) ) It concerns a virus with the file name jdbgmgr.exe. I have just found
and
) ) deleted the file from our computer, so I suggest everyone check their
hard
) ) drives just in case.
) )
) ) Charlie.
) )
) ) ***
) ) )THIS IS URGENT. A virus has been passed on to us by a contact. Our
) ) ) ) address book in turn has been infected. Since you are in my address
) book
) ) ) ) there is a chance that you will find it in your computer also.
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) I followed the instructions below and eradicated the virus easily.
) ) ) ) The virus (called jdbgmgr.exe) is not detected by Norton or Macafee
) ) ) ) anti-virus system. This virus sits quietly for 14 days before
damaging
) ) )the
) ) ) ) system. It is sent automically by messenger and the address book,
) ) )whether
) ) ) ) or not you send e-mails to your contacts.
) ) ) ) Here's how to check for the virus and get rid of it:
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 1. Go to start, Find or Search option
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 2. In the file/folders option, type the name : jdbgmgr.exe
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 3. Be sure you search your C-drive and all the sub-files and any
other
) ) ) ) drives you may have
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 4. Click : "Find now"
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 5. The virus has a grey teddy bear icon with the name jdbghgr.exe -
DO
) ) )NOT
) ) ) ) OPEN IT!
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 6. Go to edit (on the menu bar) and choose SELECT ALL to highlight
the
) ) )file
) ) ) ) without opening it.
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 7. Now go to the File (on the menu bar) and select DELETE. It will
) then
) ) )go
) ) ) ) to the recycle bin.
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 8. Go to the Recycle Bin and delete it there as well.
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) IF YOU FIND THE VIRUS, you must contact all the people in your
address
) ) ) ) book, so that they can eradicate it in their own address books.
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) To do this:
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 1. Open a new e-mail message
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 2. Click the icon of the address book next to the "To"
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 3. Highlight evey name and add to "BCC"
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) 4. Copy this message, enter subject and paste to e-mail, and send
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) Remember you have to do this quickly.
) ) ) )
) ) )
) )
) )
)
)
)
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 937
-- Topica Digest --
Fw: The Case of Anthroposophy
By bradmartin sbcglobal.net
Re: Fw: The Case of Anthroposophy
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Fw: The Case of Anthroposophy
By bradmartin sbcglobal.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:09:13 -0600
From: Brad Martin (bradmartin sbcglobal.net)
Subject: Fw: The Case of Anthroposophy
) Brad on Steiner's philosophy:
)
) )At it's heart, as is true from Important Minds of Synthesis, is the
) )a.essential, if not radical, approach to the individality of humanity,
) )man/woman. And, of essential importance, the capacity of each human to
) )increase, toward the highest in the overarching term, Love. This process
) )can be called by many names: metanoia, transformation, transmutation,
) )individuation, self-actualization, et al. There is More
) )than the mechanistic sleep, eat, work and fornicate.
Diana said:
) See, I think this is a caricature. Are there really any philosophies that
) tout sleeping, eating, working and fornicating as a meaningful existence
and
) posit nothing beyond, or within, or among us (however you think of it)?
) Steiner I suppose would be an improvement on such a theory, but you're
) setting the bar kind of low.
Brad: That was a deliberate extreme statement, although I would think there
might be at least one wife out there who has a full time couch potato for a
husband with non stop sports on the tube who would say that the bar was at
an accurate level. It more refers to what Gurdjieff spoke of when he said
that humanity was 'asleep'. ie that normal state of consciousness is only a
part of what is possible. Maslow devoted his scientific profession to the
question and there is academic interest from the 1990's in consciousness
studies, and numerous others are verifying and researching the deeper
aspects of the question of, What is Life? Mechanistic science has created
the wonders we enjoy today, but they had to put aside the question, What is
Life?, first because of the Church. Now, the more complete systems science
is addressing the many systemic questions which were put aside for the time,
such as qualities.
My comment above about the 'capacity of each human to increase' was expanded
upon with my posting from the biography of the self described Jewish atheist
practical mystic, Abraham Maslow. No one from WC has responded to that
direct 'evidence' from his biography.
) )So, why did these folks embellish with such rhetorical excess? That is a
) )perplexing question. Was it their own attempt at bringing to the larger
) number the wisdom not so
) )obvious to the majority who remain mired in the Whiteheadian, "fallacy
that
) )has infused tragedy", into civilization?
)
) Nah, you're taking him too seriously. Gurus invent a lot of outrageous
) stuff - the more outrageous it is, the likelier some people are to believe
) it. Once they tell a few stories, and realize people believe them, the
thing
) takes on a life of its own. Embellishment brings a bigger and more
gullible
) audience. And it must be so tempting!
I am taking seriously the core insights Steiner was investigating from the
broader and related discussion in the West. I am not taking seriously at all
his excesses. There are gurus and there are gurus. Among the most honored
have included Plato, Pythagoras, Jesus, the Buddha, etc. There are a large
number in the second and third rank. There are the complete charlatans such
as Jim Jones and David Koresh at Waco. No one has yet returned to my request
on who has written an objective evaluaton on Steiner separating the useable
insights from the nonsense. Further, I am surfing to try to find someone
identifying what my suspicious is that Steiner was using an elaborate
mythology as a rhetorical device to present more completely on the
individual and the spiritual as many have done. His purpose, along with many
others, was to give focus on the human being with capacities for 'the more',
that Abe Maslow, eg, has given modern focus.
Waldorf Critics has given strong evidence as to Waldorf teacher training,
teachers, and parents and Anthroposophists who are taking much of it more
literally than I was aware of. This has created the local problems that
resulted in WC. And, you folks on WC are buying into the literalism as if
Anthroposophy/Waldorf is 100% literalized. "Oh, my heavens, did you read
this from the lecture on September 2, 1906 where Steiner mentioned the root
race of the third hypoteneuse from the Galaxy Lemuria that was the spiritual
forebear of Aunt Minnie 10 million years ago and incarnated to him by a
previous life as an amoeba at the bottom of the primeval ocean that later
became the Mindanao Deep!!!!!!!" Give me a break! It is now 2003, not 1903.
From my investigation, it seems Steiner is being slotted in perhaps a third
rank, but not Anthroposophy being the Axis of Evil creating NeoNazi's and
budding terrorists in their educational derivation (deliberate rhetorical
excess) as WC seems to feel. A Jim Jones, by extension, is in the 10,000th
rank. By this measure, WC puts him around 5000! The disparity begs for
investigation as numerous have commented upon in the WC Archives. I also
conclude that the current discussion goes on apace as if some of the earlier
lengthy, intelligent, insightful, and objective comments on Anthroposopy and
Waldorf had never been posted, let alone learned from. Mr. Ron Miller comes
to mind.
The question remains, How much has modern Anthroposophy matured with modern
systems/quantum science and matured spirituality, and by extension to the
Waldorf organization, and how extensive is the presence of the literaizers
who don't get the big picture. You have given me evidence that it is,
unfortunately, less than what I would have expected. .
)Brad, how much Steiner have you read?
I had read much of McDermott's 'Essential Steiner', two or three of his
smaller books, such as on Music, and from an early edition around 1990 of
ReVision - A Journal of Consciousness and Transformation, which in it's
early years was where the intelligent minds of the counterculture were
publishing. The issue was devoted to Steiner, Waldorf, Montessori and
related trends in society. I have already said, I picked up some insight
from Steiner along with scores of others, Whitehead being one of the best.
I recognized the insight from Steiner, dismissed the nonsense and passed on
to the more cogent minds. This was 10 to 15 years ago for me. Now is a
revisit. I have been surfing for several months now, and, given that many
credible writers have written favorably on Steiner with the obvious
necessary critiques, and what seems to be a fairly large number of satisfied
Waldorf parents worldwide, I begin to have questions about WC.
) )Why is it that a large part of humanity has had, and continues to have,
the
) )predisposition in the symbol producing system of the psyche to concretize
) )the metaphor, rather than live the examined life with love, learning and
) )bliss, which is well documented within the Wisdom Literatures of the
world,
) )when undertood and experienced?
)
)
) What? Could you simplify that perhaps? Are you asking why do people end up
) believing the stories they tell? Or what is the "predisposition in the
) symbol producing system of the psyche to concretize the metaphor"? If
) that's what you're asking, I think it's simple - it is not easy to live
the
) "examined life," having dogma and rhetoric to rely on instead is very
) convenient. I think we all do it.
I respectfully disagree. I started from neutral, the basic story from
Christianity did not make sense. In my late 20', late 1960's, I started a
personal journey of education into the Western humanities and some Eastern,
such as the Tao Te Ching. From this journey comes the examined life. With
further development, one no longer needs to rely upon the 'dogma and
rhetoric', but matures into knowledge and experience. Moral values become
known and integrated into one's life. I posted earlier the most respected
and oftern quoted summation on the subject of personal maturation from
Dante's Convivio.
One of the more cogent, publicly available expostions on this are the six
hours played numerous times on Public Television of the Power of Myth with
Joseph Campbell. The historical few who have made this journey toward fuller
humanness are increasing by leaps and bounds. One can be ostracized today,
but not burned at the stake or beheaded. If that were the case I would have
been roasted some years ago. So, we have made a modest advance in
civilization.
I see Steiner having contributed to that advance. Again, the question I will
be pursuing in the ongoing time, as my niece is involved, is how well, or
badly, are the Waldorf educational organization doing and the Waldorf
schools, on these larger questions. Directly, how well are they teaching as
metaphors to stir the imaginative vessel into which the data of the Readin',
Ritin', and Rithmatic can more easily and efficiently be entered.
Retain the good, dismiss the nonsense. A corollary would be, when taken
literally, it is nonsense, when understood allegorically, it is insight and
wisdom.
For example, a Gnome is a pithy saying that expresses a general truth or
fundamental principle; an aphorism; from the Greek, gnome, intelligence, and
gignoskein, to know. Aphorism is from the Greek aphorismos, from
aphorizein, apo (off, or far away) and horizein (to limit, from horos,
meaning boundary), meaning to mark off by boundaries, to set aside, cast
out, a delimitation: a short, pithy statement: a terse statement of a truth;
a brief statement of principle: an adage, maxim. A Gnome is also a member of
a fabled race of dwarflike creatures who live underground and guard hordes
of treasure. ---- I presume therefore, that discussion of a gnome is for
the childhood imagination to be used like Santa Claus and angels, to be used
appropriately, depending upon the age and understanding. Her mother and I
will be assisting in the transition to maturity, learning from the
mythology, passing on to the deeper understanding.
I received a Gnome for Christmas from her. (I am feeling the heat from hell,
although it may be the thermostat is set too high.) I gave her a crafty
sort of angel.
) No! We don't suggest Waldorf parents are mindless parrots - they don't
even
) usually *know* about this nonsense! Waldorf parents often, very gradually,
) catch on that many of the teachers are mindless parrots.
This is a fascinating issue with implications. Later-----
)There was a lot to disagree with in your prescription for PLANS,
In your opinion.
) snip to this point
) They don't aim to help children absorb knowledge or information or
readily, or to
) speed up such a process. Just the opposite. They believe the more
knowledge
) of the world (facts) children take in, the more materialistic they become
) and less able to perceive spiritual realities.
This gets at the heart of the matter of what is the strategic intention of
holistic
education and how well and not well is it being carried out.
Thanks, Diana, for your comments,
Brad
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 05:36:55 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Fw: The Case of Anthroposophy
Brad Martin (bradmartin sbcglobal.net) wrote:
(snip)
I have not returned enough to Steiner yet to uncover if there is an IMOS on
him and Anthroposophy, separating the wisdom from the nonsense.
(snip)
Peter F responds:
G'day Brad. There is a lot in your posts that deserves comment but this bit
is the bit that caught my eye first. I want to turn this question around.
Why the hell didn't Steiner do this separating? It seems to me to be easy to
find nonsense in Steiner's writings and recorded lectures. Why would anyone
want to spend time wading through all that to find some pearls of wisdom
which may or may not exist? I would assert the opposite to your suggestion.
There is clearly so much nonsense in Steiner's work that this it is obvious
that it is not a good place to look for wisdom.
You listed a number of people who you describe as IMOS, then others of the
second or third rank, and finally some charlatans. Surely that which
separates the charlatans from the rest is the presence of nonsense.
See you, Peter
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:59:58 -0600
From: Brad Martin (bradmartin sbcglobal.net)
Subject: Re: Fw: The Case of Anthroposophy
Peter Farrell said:
) (snip)
) I have not returned enough to Steiner yet to uncover if there is an IMOS
on
) him and Anthroposophy, separating the wisdom from the nonsense.
) (snip)
)
) Peter F responds:
) G'day Brad. There is a lot in your posts that deserves comment but this
bit
) is the bit that caught my eye first. I want to turn this question around.
) Why the hell didn't Steiner do this separating? It seems to me to be easy
to
) find nonsense in Steiner's writings and recorded lectures. Why would
anyone
) want to spend time wading through all that to find some pearls of wisdom
) which may or may not exist? I would assert the opposite to your
suggestion.
) There is clearly so much nonsense in Steiner's work that this it is
obvious
) that it is not a good place to look for wisdom.
) You listed a number of people who you describe as IMOS, then others of the
) second or third rank, and finally some charlatans. Surely that which
) separates the charlatans from the rest is the presence of nonsense.
) See you, Peter
Brad:
Right, it truly is perplexing. I remember wading through some Theosophical
material channeled from the Mahootma Hatma HooWoo's from caverns of
antiquity in Afghanistan, or wherever, and then getting to Leadbetter
thinking he had some intellectual snap. Wrong!. -- He got caught up in
Blavatsky's woo woo, as well. And, of course, Gurdjieff is a leaden weight
of verbosity, although I imagine there are Gurdjieffians who hang on every
word. As I said, Maurice Nicoll's, 'New Man', is an excellent synthesis on
Theosophy, beautifully presenting the wisdom within the lines of the Bible.
After the Koresh Waco disaster, I took the opportunity to read the entire
Book of Revelation that they were taking literally word for word. My opinion
is that that piece of literature was an excellent account of someone who
wrote down his mental voyage under an hallucinogen.
I took the opportunity a while back on a trip to Chicago to visit the
Theosophical Library at the Olcutt mansion in Wheaton, Illinois. What a
gorgeous place. The library covers the main large, high ceilinged living
room. I deliberately went through all the sections, which covered all the
world's religions and serious writers on the metaphorical knowledge. There
was only one shelf on what I would call the New Age nonsense. On the same
grounds is their bookstore. Also, quite impressive with a mixture of the
serious and the popular. Often in a town will be a 'New Age' bookstore with
99% nonsense. I understand the Bodhi Tree in Los Angelas and the main book
store in Boulder, CO are both good stores along this line. In any event, the
Theosophical Library was extremely impressive and reflected the strategic
purpose for organizations such as Theosophy, Gurdjieff and Anthroposophy in
the first place, which was to counter the hegemony of the Western Church. At
this library, I feel they succeeded admirably. If a person wanted to
seriously study the world's religious traditions, it is an excellent source.
Everyone was exceedingly nice, no horns or tails, and their quaterly
schedule seemed rational enough with minimal of the 'nonsense'.
So, agreed, why did he write in such a fashion??? He was by no means the
only one doing so. More importantly 100 years later, what is Anthroposophy
doing today to extract the good. Someone had recommended his Philosophy of
Freedom as a more seminal work which I have printed out.
9/11 has made a new day out of this crucial issue. The reality of the
fundamentalist mindset is no longer one of smugly saying, "oh, each has a
right to their belief", stated from a position of security from this
relatively safe democracy. Tthe effects of this mindset upon the individual
and the community of the logical result of the tragic extremes of the
mindset must be guarded againt. My reading of history is that the framers
were smart guys, learned from European history and put this check and
balance in.
In the larger context, Anthroposophy is not on my radar screen. I lump it in
with the other two similar organizations which had strategic value at
countering the arrogant hegemony of the Church and bringing in the reality
that there are other important religious traditions.
I have no interest in Anthroposophy. I will gain my knowledge from more
credible and efficient sources. However, I do have an interest in Waldorf
now that my niece is there. I will be looking for the fox(es) in the
henhouse, how well her local school and teacher is separating out the
nonsense and how well the hoistic, imaginative approach to pedagogy is doing
for her. Until this recent round of surfing, I had not realized at how
extensive the holistic had gained ground in various places, in additon to
the Waldorf and Montessori.
So, in response to your last line, who is going to clean out the nonsense in
the three major Western Abrahamic traditions? More importantly is the
recognition, as Alfred North Whitehead has done, that the actual sayings and
life of Jesus, for example, was certainly exemplary. It is those who mucked
it up who need to be relegated to a lesser rank.
It is happening. Mathew Fox being thrown out of the Catholic Church and
becoming Episcopal is an example. Bishop Spong of the Episcopal traditon
taking a year's sabatical traveling the country to attempt to rescue
Christianity from the fundamentalists is another.
Brad
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 938
-- Topica Digest --
Re: The Case of Anthroposophy
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
RE: Fw: The Case of Anthroposophy
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Two Scientific American Articles
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Anthroposophy and prisons
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Two Scientific American Articles
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:23:45 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: The Case of Anthroposophy
Brad (previously) on Steiner's philosophy:
)) )At it's heart, as is true from Important Minds of Synthesis, is the
)) )a.essential, if not radical, approach to the individality of humanity,
)) )man/woman.
Such puffery. You call that "radical"? I don't think I know a single
individual who wouldn't agree, and doesn't try, to "increase, toward the
highest in the overarching term, Love." Whether you use fancy words like
"metanoia" that maybe puzzle or intimidate the average person, or a simpler
formulation like, trying to be a good person, love makes it all worthwhile,
etc., it's pretty basic, Brad, it's hardly a "radical approach to humanity."
(also previously)
)And, of essential importance, the capacity of each human to increase,
)toward the highest in the overarching term, Love. This process can be
)called by many names: metanoia, transformation, transmutation,
)individuation, self-actualization, et al. There is More than the
mechanistic
)sleep, eat, work and fornicate.
(and I replied:)
)) See, I think this is a caricature. Are there really any philosophies that
)) tout sleeping, eating, working and fornicating as a meaningful existence
))and posit nothing beyond, or within, or among us (however you think of
)) it)? Steiner I suppose would be an improvement on such a theory, but
you're
)) setting the bar kind of low.
Brad:
)That was a deliberate extreme statement, although I would think there
)might be at least one wife out there who has a full time couch potato for a
)husband with non stop sports on the tube who would say that the bar was at
)an accurate level.
Amusingly there was an article in our paper the other day, front page, about
our football team, about which the city is in a fever pitch because they may
make it to the Superbowl, and how so many, if not most, of the players are
deeply religious. Yeah sure, your average sports zombie doesn't know from
love or spirituality or meaning in life, just lives to eat, sleep and
fornicate. (sarcasm; caricature alert) When are people calling themselves
spiritual going to get off their high horse? *All* of humanity is concerned
with love, meaning, purpose in life, y'all haven't got it all wrapped up.
)My comment above about the 'capacity of each human to increase' was
)expanded upon with my posting from the biography of the self described
Jewish
)atheist practical mystic, Abraham Maslow. No one from WC has responded to
that
)direct 'evidence' from his biography.
What response do you want? What did you mean to give evidence of? I believe
you, lots of people are interested in "increasing" in a spiritual sense. I
considered it obvious, not a new revelation.
) No one has yet returned to my request on who has written an objective
)evaluaton on Steiner separating the useable insights from the nonsense.
Maybe 'cus no one has. Those inside anthroposophy are hardly objective; he
is their guru. Outside anthroposophy, few find anything useful
outside the nonsense. Perhaps if you clarified what you think the "useable
insights" are, you'd get a specific response from someone here.
)Further, I am surfing to try to find someone identifying what my suspicious
)is that Steiner was using an elaborate mythology as a rhetorical device to
)present more completely on the individual and the spiritual as many have
done.
You mean, then, that Steiner himself didn't really believe *literally* or
mean for us to take literally, his descriptions of spirits on other planets,
and stories like the lost continent of Atlantis etc. In that case he was
indeed a charlatan, since he certainly encouraged his followers to believe
it all literally. Llike so many people interpreting Steiner, you're free to
decide he didn't really mean what he said, but the fact is he said it. Over
and over, he said that the "insights" of anthroposophy were literally true
and that anyone who had true spiritual vision would know that they were
true. If you did his exercises, eventually you would see these spiritual
realities are clearly as most of us perceive physical realities.
)Waldorf Critics has given strong evidence as to Waldorf teacher training,
)teachers, and parents and Anthroposo