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-- Topica Digest --
Re: Bibliography of Rudolf Steiner
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Bibliography of Rudolf Steiner
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Re: the two steiners
By waldorf_kh hotmail.com
Re: RE: Scaligero and the Roman Race
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Dualism vs. Monism
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Spot the difference
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Spot the difference
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Dualism vs. Monism
By mysplum earthlink.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:49:28 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Bibliography of Rudolf Steiner
on 3/14/02 2:42 PM, Peter Zegers at peter_zegers runbox.no wrote:
)kaola:
) 5) is it possible that there are forged documents that are falsely
) attributed to Steiner in order to endorse a different point of view or
) stance and to try to disqualify some too ambiguous statements published
) in his lifetime?
)
) Peter Z: This is entirely possible, but I don't think was of these forged
) documents was included in the GA. As I said before, many private
) transcripts were made before Steiner hired a stenographer.
Sharon: I also wonder about forged documents.
I do know that there is some hanky panky, for example I have noticed that
Anthro Press is very selective, lots of intervention from Anthro editors. I
have seen reprints of books where things have been omitted, or rewritten.
I have been trying to nail down Steiner's secret society memberships but
found the terrain almost impassable. For example I've come across many
references to Steiner and and the OTO, Anthros vehemently deny this. Koenig
once wrote that Steiner was a member of the OTO and then he came out with
another paper saying it wasn't true. The Anthros opened the vault and showed
Koenig that there were no letters to Reuss from Steiner, although there were
letters from Reuss to Steiner, there were also letters from Reuss to Marie.
I also think its strange that Alice Sprengal would run off with Reuss after
Steiner ditched her. I have this hunch that there is more to the story.
Alester Crowley's magic, I have read was just basic Gnostic stuff so I don't
think Anthros should be so afraid of being linked to Crowley. Recently, in
Dan Merkur's book I read that Steiner was installed as the head of the lodge
of the Ordens Temple des Ostens.
I don't believe a word Anthroposophists say, they've lost my trust, I am
always suspicious of them. Helmut Zanders wrote in Theosophical History
VII/6 that Anthro editors are selective and he gave the example of the mark
X used when it suits them in "Correspondences and Documents." For eg.
Steiner refers to Reuss and the ritual he bought from Reuss, instead of
naming Reuss they give an X. I am also very confused about why there are no
letters about Waldorf in Correspondences and Documents.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:00:56 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Bibliography of Rudolf Steiner
)Sharon: I also wonder about forged documents.
)
)I do know that there is some hanky panky, for example I have noticed that
)Anthro Press is very selective, lots of intervention from Anthro editors. I
)have seen reprints of books where things have been omitted, or rewritten.
Things I've noticed are chunks of embarrassing text missing in
English editions, and some translators changing "Theosophy" to
"Anthroposophy" in Steiner's earlier books.
-Dan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:21:25 -0700
From: "Kathy Harlan" (waldorf_kh hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Re: the two steiners
Percedol netscape.net wrote:
(snip)
It's not the outer aspect that is important, but the inner element. An
african or a Japanese can be well more advanced than a German or a British
(snip)
Could you expand on what you mean by 'more advanced'? When you talk about
'inner element' associated with an individual's nationality I'm not
following. Please give me some examples of what you mean by this.
Thanks,
Kathy
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:20:56 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: RE: Scaligero and the Roman Race
) Percedol***
) Because if you want to know the teachings of a teacher you read his works.
) I close here. If you want to continue do it off-list.
Why off-list? I appreciate this dialogue and we can only benefit by keeping
informative discussions open for all to learn from. Did the moderator ask
it to go private?
- Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 04:54:49 +0000
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Dualism vs. Monism
mysplum wrote:
snip))
) Sharon: Well, Smith came first and he got his notions from Freemasonry
) (where else!) Then Blavatsky...and the rest. A reaction to Darwinism, a
) reaction to the 17th C split between science and religion.
) )
) )) Steiner on the other hand has a real problem with matter and Steiner's
) )) doctrine insists that spirit is better than matter and that people
) )) started
) )) off as spirit before the fall and must return to spirit once again.
I hadn't known that the great Mormon Smith was a Mason. Fascinating and
certainly enlightening. I followed things in Salt Lake City for the
Olympics. I have heard that the state of Utah is actually a religious
state.
)
) Sharon: I'm a mere student Sue. No need to apologize! I have a lot to
) learn...I'm sorting out my Egyptian, Roman, Greek history now while I
) try to
) square away Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, Cabalism!!
I was duped because I was
) ignorant...got a lot of learning to do!
You are a true scholar, who won't let it rest.
Isn't it funny that all of us on this side of the fence are incredibly
focused on deconstructing and understanding the whole phenomenon of
anthroposophy and waldorf education. It says something about the power
of realization and the anger that accompanies it. Our debating opponents
must know that we are not faint-hearted, on many levels...
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 00:32:21 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Spot the difference
So - you are interested in Waldorf for your child and have heard a few
things about this arts based nonsectarian school system. Would anyone else
be a little confused by some of the descriptions of Waldorf? Here we see
advertised - 2 books. The first suggests that by sending our child to
Waldorf he/she/they will be helped in becoming "freethinking, socially
responsible adults with initiative." The second book ... well, take a look
at what our child might become. How many "new worlds" might my child
actually build ... and why?
1) A book titled "Waldorf Education" by Christopher Clouder and Martyn Raws
on on sale at Barnes & Noble.com:
From the Publisher:
"This basic introduction to the Waldorf School describes the philosophy and
ideals behind the movement that aims to help children become freethinking,
socially responsible adults with initiative.
There are over 700 Steiner Waldorf Schools in 40 countries, including 127 in
the United States, making it the largest independent educational movement in
the world.
Rudolf Steiner is most widely known as the founder of the Waldorf Schools
and for his innovative ideas on children's mental, physical and emotional
development. What these ideas were and how they have been put into practice
are clearly described and vividly illustrated by pertinent examples from the
classroom and the curriculum.
Includes 40 black and white photographs.
Christopher Clouder and Martyn Rawson have both taught in Waldorf Schools in
the U.K., and are currently active in teacher training and in the promotion
of Waldorf Education at both a national and international level."
2) "The Roots of Education" by Rudolph Steiner at the same store...
From the Publisher:
"We must develop an art of education that will lead us out of the social
chaos into which we have fallen during the past few years and decades. The
only way out of this social chaos is the bring spirituality into human souls
through education, so that humanity may find the way to progress and further
the evolution of civilization out the spirit itself.
The special feature of these lectures is the deep insight into the mystery
of soul and spiritual forces in a child's development. they deal with the
metamorphoses of the child's being as these forces unfold and how teaching
should be related to such fundamental changes. In such education the child
is prepared to become a citizen not only of the earth but of the spiritual
world as well. Only through recognizing our spiritual citizenship can we in
fact truly become social beings on earth and creative in the building of new
worlds."
Another Friday night and another shake of the head.
- Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 01:07:48 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Walden, you quoted a book blurb,
)2) "The Roots of Education" by Rudolph Steiner at the same store...
)
)From the Publisher:
)"We must develop an art of education that will lead us out of the social
)chaos into which we have fallen during the past few years and decades. The
)only way out of this social chaos is the bring spirituality into human souls
)through education, so that humanity may find the way to progress and further
)the evolution of civilization out the spirit itself.
Whew. Note "the only way," it is exclusive. Other ideas can't even be
considered. Get outta the way, we have to save the children, advance
the "evolution of civilization."
)...In such education the child is prepared to become a citizen not
)only of the earth but of the spiritual world as well.
An appropriate goal for a religious school.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 07:08:44 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Dualism vs. Monism
on 3/15/02 8:54 PM, Su at sufrito53 yahoo.com wrote:
)
) Isn't it funny that all of us on this side of the fence are incredibly
) focused on deconstructing and understanding the whole phenomenon of
) anthroposophy and waldorf education. It says something about the power
) of realization and the anger that accompanies it. Our debating opponents
) must know that we are not faint-hearted, on many levels...
)
Sharon: You can dupe some of the people some of time, but you can't dupe all
the people all the time!
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 668
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Spot the difference
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Spot the difference
By waldorf_kh hotmail.com
Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By waldorf_kh hotmail.com
Home visits
By kateabooth yahoo.com.au
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: The present goals and tasks in Jewish culture
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:09:33 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Walden wrote:
)Here we see advertised - 2 books. The first suggests that by sending )our
)child to Waldorf he/she/they will be helped in becoming )"freethinking,
)socially responsible adults with initiative."
Books on alternatives in education often repeat this sort of thing if they
cover Waldorf. (You know, the kind of thing with a paragraph on Waldorf, a
paragraph on Montessori, a paragraph on Christian homeschoolers, etc.) Often
the claims indicate the author researched Waldorf in about 15 minutes of
examining school brochures or web sites.
I found one once that said Steiner schools are based on equality between
teachers and students, stating that Steiner was considered revolutionary in
his day for this idea (paraphrased, sorry I don't have the actual quote or
reference). It would be hard to distort Steiner's views any worse than that.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 18:14:56 -0700
From: "Kathy Harlan" (waldorf_kh hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Walden wrote:
)1) A book titled "Waldorf Education" by Christopher Clouder and Martyn
)Raws
)on on sale at Barnes & Noble.com:
)
)From the Publisher:
)"This basic introduction to the Waldorf School describes the philosophy and
)ideals behind the movement that aims to help children become freethinking,
)socially responsible adults with initiative.
This was the book I read before sending my child to a Waldorf school. After
we pulled her out I went back to review the book again to see what I missed.
The book is very slick in terms of its use of language. Nothing in it
really talks about Steiner or Anthroposophy in any amount of detail which
would lead one to understand that he was a mystic and Anthroposophy a
spiritual movement. I remember there being a few things in it that didn't
quite make sense at the time. I just skipped over it and kept reading,
projecting my idyllic thoughts on all of it. If these folks are such true
believers in Anthroposophy then why don't they write a book that explains it
in plain English?
Kathy
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 18:33:08 -0700
From: "Kathy Harlan" (waldorf_kh hotmail.com)
Subject: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
I ran into a woman yesterday at the grocery store whose daughter was in my
daughter's class at the Waldorf school. She related an interesting comment
to me. Her and her husband had researched Waldorf extremely well before
enrolling their child. They actually waited a year because they weren't
sure given the wacky stuff they'd read. Their other school choice didn't
work out so they ended up enrolling at Waldorf. She said the racism in
Steiner's writings was one thing that they were extremely bothered by. She
stated that since they were obviously white they couldn't forsee any direct
impact on their child and didn't believe that anyone in the school "still
believed that stuff".
When they saw our daughter enrolled in the class she said they both breathed
a sigh of relief. "If it didn't bother your family we figured we didn't
have anything to be concerned about." She said that after they received our
letter they realized that we didn't know about Steiner. I think anyone
attending a Waldorf school needs to accept the fact that they legitimize
Steiner's racism whether they want to acknowledge it or not. I'm incredibly
sick to my stomach knowing that our family did.
Kathy
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 17:45:40 +1100 (EST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Kate=20Booth?= (kateabooth yahoo.com.au)
Subject: Home visits
I was just wondering if anyone has had experience with
class home visits (where the whole class visits each
of their classmates homes over a week or so) and what
the purpose was behind them?
Many thanks Kate
http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
- Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:00:42 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Hi Kathy
What letter do you talk about? Did you have legitimize the Waldorf Racism even
in a written form? This things make me sick as well, I wished, that all Waldorf
schools would be closed by law.
Sandra
Kathy Harlan wrote:
) I ran into a woman yesterday at the grocery store whose daughter was in my
) daughter's class at the Waldorf school. She related an interesting comment
) to me. Her and her husband had researched Waldorf extremely well before
) enrolling their child. They actually waited a year because they weren't
) sure given the wacky stuff they'd read. Their other school choice didn't
) work out so they ended up enrolling at Waldorf. She said the racism in
) Steiner's writings was one thing that they were extremely bothered by. She
) stated that since they were obviously white they couldn't forsee any direct
) impact on their child and didn't believe that anyone in the school "still
) believed that stuff".
)
) When they saw our daughter enrolled in the class she said they both breathed
) a sigh of relief. "If it didn't bother your family we figured we didn't
) have anything to be concerned about." She said that after they received our
) letter they realized that we didn't know about Steiner. I think anyone
) attending a Waldorf school needs to accept the fact that they legitimize
) Steiner's racism whether they want to acknowledge it or not. I'm incredibly
) sick to my stomach knowing that our family did.
)
) Kathy
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:06:33 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: The present goals and tasks in Jewish culture
Dear Peter
I have a question - see interlaced below.
Sandra
Peter Zegers wrote:
) Dear critics,
)
) I found some old notes that might be of interest to some of you.
)
) "Judaism has since long become anachronistic, it has no purpose among
) the peoples of today. That it has preserved itself is an error in world
) history which could not fail to have its consequences.' (GA 32, Robert
) Hamerling: 'Homunculus', 1888, s 152f).
)
) http://sektion.goetheanum.ch/Medienstelle/RefHeertschEngl.htm
)
) The Anthroposophist Andreas Heertsch's comment on this quote:
)
) "Here I see a Steiner, who out of the spirit of his time, and youthfully
) [Steiner was 27 at the time he wrote this review] enjoying himself in
) using drastic formulations writes a polemic, that stands in contrast and
) contradiction to what he writes with engagement 13 years later (1901),
) as he writes a number of leading articles for the Newsletter of the
) 'Association against antisemitism', published by his Jewish friend
) Ludwig Jacobowski." And: "While the first quote [the one above], and
) probably much else can be put in its place when seen in its historical
) context, this is not the case with the second quote. 1924, that is one
) year before his death, Rudolf Steiner is asked by construction workers
) of the Goetheanum during one of the series of lectures that he held
) regularly for the workers (GA 353, 8.5.1924) 'Has the *Jewish people*
) fulfilled its mission in the history of humanity?'" [Emphasis added].
Can you give that quote?
) Instead of giving a quote Heertsch paraphrases. According to Heertsch
) Steiner answers by stating his opposition to Jewish nationalism
) (Zionism). He then quotes Steiner again: "'And so the greatest
) misfortune of this 20th century [probably he is referring here to World
) war I] has come from that which the Jews want also, ...' Andreas
) Heertsch continues: "I stress 'also want'. Here Rudolf Steiner
) generalises: He sees the greatest misery coming out of everything that
) is nationalistic, that wants to separate itself off as national. It
) makes no difference to him here whether nationalism is French, English,
) Serbian, German or Jewish. For an individualism, that is on its way to
) new forms of community, every nationalistic separation from humanity in
) general is a step back, that eventually leads to ethnic cleansing and
) bloodshed."
)
) A question that comes to mind is: would Steiner have answered a question
) about the historic mission of the German people by criticizing their
) nationalism? Why would he respond to a specific question with a general
) answer? Why did he think the Jews were so nationalistic in the first
) place? Why did he blame the Jews for World War I?
)
) Heertsch: "If Jewish culture were to disappear through something like
) assimilation, I would consider that to be a definite empoverishment of
) contemporary culture. If Rudolf Steiner were to think so, I would
) contradict him and point out that there
) are other cultures who, in our view, have fulfilled their primary tasks
) in history and we do not get the idea that they should dissolve as a
) people (for instance the cultures of Old Egypt and of Ancient Greece and
) Rome)."
)
) Heertsch also writes: "As an anthroposophist I have a *teleological view
) of the world*, that is, I see development, evolution and try to
) understand its meaning - a view that may appear outdated to a
) descriptive way of looking at history. In this meaning-searching world
) picture, *cultures have special qualities and tasks in the development
) of humanity as a whole*. The chassidic Rabbi Yonassan Gershom made it
) clear to me in a longer exchange of letters: 'You anthroposophists
) basically assume that we Jews are outdated, obsolete because we do not
) see and accept Christ as our Messiah and therefore do not have a task
) any more, but only cling to the past.' To be able to argue with this
) view, *attributed to us not entirely without justice* and also detailed
) by Mr. Stegemann, I would be grateful if you would tell us something of
) the present goals and tasks in Jewish culture. When I express this wish,
) I am sure that this question may not easy to answer, specifically since
) the question may sound as if Jewish culture would need to justify itself
) in some way. Please don't understand my question that way, but take it
) as an expression of real
) interest and the belief that getting to know one another and mutual
) understanding is the best way of overcoming prejudice. Because, as I
) tried to say, I am sure that we can learn much from you [Stegemann]."
) [Emphasis added].
)
) Best,
)
) Peter Zegers
)
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 669
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Spot the difference
By mysplum earthlink.net
Quote from GA 353
By peter_zegers runbox.no
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Quote from GA 353
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
RE: Spot the difference
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By peter_zegers runbox.no
Re: Quote from GA 353
By peter_zegers runbox.no
RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: Quote from GA 353
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Quote from GA 353
By peter_zegers runbox.no
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By jfk3 sprint.ca
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By jfk3 sprint.ca
Re: Spot the difference
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By peter_zegers runbox.no
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 08:48:35 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
on 3/16/02 1:07 AM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
) Walden, you quoted a book blurb,
)
)) 2) "The Roots of Education" by Rudolph Steiner at the same store...
)) ...In such education the child is prepared to become a citizen not
)) only of the earth but of the spiritual world as well.
)
) An appropriate goal for a religious school.
Sharon: The Initiate who attains Intuition, has power over his physical body
so that no current passes through his nerves without his knowledge, he will
have the capacity to work on transforming his body himself, into the Sixth
race. Only those who reach this stage can be a "citizen of those spiritual
worlds which govern and direct his physical body" (Steiner, Theosophy of the
Rosicrucian 22).
Intuition of course is a veiled word, (it can also be termed "world of
reason"), it means Steiner's highest world of his three tiered cosmos which,
apart from the physical world, is divided into three levels, namely:
Imaginative world, world of Inspiration and world of Intuition. I'm pretty
sure that Steiner picked this up from Agrippa (1486-1533). Agrippa was the
main source of ritual magic for Renaissance magicians. Dee and Fludd also
drew heavily from him, they are all considered to be Rosicrucians.(Dee was a
major contributor to Masonry, although his name has been erased from
Freemasonry's history because Dee was too controversial, got into trouble
for being a crook). Agrippa's three worlds were the elemental world, the
celestial world, and the supercelestial world. (Think of the worlds as
circles within circles, then place man at the center.) Steiner wrote about
Agrippa and preached about him. Imagination can also be called the astral or
elemental world, Inspiration can be called Harmonies of the spheres, heaven
world, mental world or Devachan. Different beings live in these 3 worlds or
planes. Gnomes and fairies and other lower beings live in the
elemental/astral/Imaginative world. The highest beings such as angels live
in the world of Intuition, this is also the plane where the Akasha can be
read. Eurythmy and Waldorf are paths to these worlds.
Steiner says there are even higher worlds but they cannot be put into words.
(No doubt Steiner was spiritually advanced enough to visit them!)
Interestingly Goethe made reference to Agrippa in Faust as the black dog.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:39:16 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: Quote from GA 353
Dear Sandra,
I don't have GA 353 at hand and I would have to go to a library to get
it. So if you don't mind you could get the book yourself and find the
quote. It shouldn't be too hard to find it. Unfortunately I don't have
time to look this up for you.
Best,
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:48:34 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
on 3/16/02 5:33 PM, Kathy Harlan at waldorf_kh hotmail.com wrote:
She
) stated that since they were obviously white they couldn't forsee any direct
) impact on their child
Sharon: cringe! That's an awful way to think!
and didn't believe that anyone in the school "still
) believed that stuff".
Sharon: sad part is that some of those "in the know" do still think like
this. In the town of our ex-school, after a flurry of letters to the editor
in response to yet another scam article on Waldorf that didn't mention the
"unmentionables", (ie. religious school, parochial school for Anthro,
Rosicrucian mystery school, occult based, etc) one activist quoted some
racist Steiner in her letter. Then an Anthroposophist came into town to meet
with the believers. One woman, who attended the Theosophist school in CA as
a child recommended that it would be a good idea to say that anything bad
that Steiner said should be considered something said when he was not
clairvoyant. Anything that didn't feel good should be considered not of the
spirit. The visiting man just continued to deny Steiner's racism.
The problem is, Steiner's whole system rests on racism, if you retract the
racism, you weaken the religion by showing how fraught with nonsense it is,
then man's striving to become the Sixth race and universal human becomes
problematic. Then you also have the problem of trying to figure out what was
inspired by the spirit and what wasn't. However, I think the woman's
suggestion is a good way out for Anthros. I think they should have the
Sun-Spirit or Steiner whisper into the leadership's ears just like the
Mormons got Jesus to whisper in their leaders' ears to change their racist
doctrine. Instead of whispering in ears, perhaps Anthros could pull a little
Blavatsky trick and write a letter from a spiritual master...could even be
Christian Rosenkreutz! It would be a way to move forward, and heck, if
Anthros would just look to the Mormons they will see that changing dogma has
very little consequence for the run-of-the-mill believers. Next to Islam,
Mormonism is the fastest growing new religious movement, despite the fact
that it's shot through with inconsistencies. Anthro is piddlesticks compared
to Mormonism, Anthro hasn't even reached the size Steiner himself predicted
it would reach by this time.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:44:58 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Quote from GA 353
Hi Peter
I understand, but unfortunately, I don't read stuff from racists like
Rudolf Steiner :) And I would even if I looked it up had to read the
whole book, so, I simply don't know the exact source (Page, Title) to
look it up. GA 353 is may be the number of the book in your library, but
I am in Basel - Switzerland, so, I don't have a chance to find that.
Further hints?
Sandra
Peter Zegers wrote:
) Dear Sandra,
)
) I don't have GA 353 at hand and I would have to go to a library to get
) it. So if you don't mind you could get the book yourself and find the
) quote. It shouldn't be too hard to find it. Unfortunately I don't have
) time to look this up for you.
)
) Best,
)
) Peter Zegers
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:53:56 +0000
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Spot the difference
mysplum wrote:
snip)
) Interestingly Goethe made reference to Agrippa in Faust as the black
) dog.
)
Hi Sharon,
Do you know why Goethe referred to Agrippa as the Black dog?
I am also wondering if you or others, either Dof's or Critics would be
interested in explaining or summarizing the concepts of
Imagination,Inspiration, and Intuition.
They come up in so much of Steiner's writing. I would be interested in
people's understanding of these entities.
Thanks,
Su
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:23:29 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Hi Sharon,
You wrote: "One woman, who attended the Theosophist school in CA as a
child recommended that it would be a good idea to say that anything bad
that Steiner said should be considered something said when he was not
clairvoyant. Anything that didn't feel good should be considered not of
the spirit."
This is a good example of the Steiner-I-know (Waage) phenomenon very
widespread in anthro-circles that Peter S. and I addressed in our second
reply to Waage. If you don't like it, ignore seems to be their way of
dealing with unpleasant things (that is probably why the Shoah is not
part of the curriculum in many Waldorf schools).
Best,
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:40:19 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: Re: Quote from GA 353
Dear Sandra,
I am a bit puzzled by your remarks. So you want me to give you more
infromation where to find the quote from Steiner, but then you don't
want to read it? This is not very consistent. Anyway, the title of the
book is: Die Geschichte der Menschheit und die Weltanschauungen der
Kulturv?lker. Band VII. Siebzehn Vortr?ge, Dornach 1. M?rz bis 25. Juni
1924. (Rudolf Steiner Verlag: Dornach 1988). The quote is from the
lecture of May 8, 1924. It shouldn't be too hard to find the book in
Basel.
I surely want to read this book sometime, but not within a couple of
months. It is too bad you don't want to read Steiner because you could
send us interesting quotes from the books you read (how would we know
that Steiner was an antisemite and racist in the first place if nobody
had read his books and lectures?). Well, that is what I am trying to do
whenever I find something of interest.
Best,
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:40:43 +0000
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Peter Zegers wrote:
) Hi Sharon,
)
) You wrote: "One woman, who attended the Theosophist school in CA as a
) child recommended that it would be a good idea to say that anything bad
) that Steiner said should be considered something said when he was not
) clairvoyant. Anything that didn't feel good should be considered not of
) the spirit."
)
) This is a good example of the Steiner-I-know (Waage) phenomenon very
) widespread in anthro-circles that Peter S. and I addressed in our second
) reply to Waage. If you don't like it, ignore seems to be their way of
) dealing with unpleasant things (that is probably why the Shoah is not
) part of the curriculum in many Waldorf schools).
)
) Best,
)
) Peter Zegers
)
This is a good example of cognitive dissonance phenomenon, that one
encounters with any person or ideology that one follows, when something
comes up that "doesn't fit" with the leader, philosopher, spirit,,etc,
etc.
You make up a good excuse for the "mistake" of the leader, ideology, or
dissonant situation, so that it becomes part of the belief system, or at
least acceptable. So Steiner wasn't in his clairvoyant mode. Geez.
Sort of like the flying saucer group who expected one to come and take
them all away one night. When it didn't happen, and of course the
followers had sold all their possessions and were left with nothing to
go home to, the leader told them that that was the intent, and part of
the plan of the flying saucer...Wonder what happened to them...
The dissonance was made acceptable by an "excuse".
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:46:28 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Quote from GA 353
Hi Peter
Yes, you're right, we should know, what we are talking about. The way you
give me the citations makes it possible for me to look it up, but the
first way made it impossible, or better, it would make very much work to
find it out. So, clearly stated: do you believe that he was a racist or
not? What I see up to now is, that he was a racist.
Sandra
Peter Zegers wrote:
) Dear Sandra,
)
) I am a bit puzzled by your remarks. So you want me to give you more
) infromation where to find the quote from Steiner, but then you don't
) want to read it? This is not very consistent. Anyway, the title of the
) book is: Die Geschichte der Menschheit und die Weltanschauungen der
) Kulturv?lker. Band VII. Siebzehn Vortr?ge, Dornach 1. M?rz bis 25. Juni
) 1924. (Rudolf Steiner Verlag: Dornach 1988). The quote is from the
) lecture of May 8, 1924. It shouldn't be too hard to find the book in
) Basel.
)
) I surely want to read this book sometime, but not within a couple of
) months. It is too bad you don't want to read Steiner because you could
) send us interesting quotes from the books you read (how would we know
) that Steiner was an antisemite and racist in the first place if nobody
) had read his books and lectures?). Well, that is what I am trying to do
) whenever I find something of interest.
)
) Best,
)
) Peter Zegers
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:52:29 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: Re: Quote from GA 353
Dear Sandra,
Please read Anthroposophy and its defenders (online at:
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/anthroposophy_criticism.htm)
and The Janus Face of Anthroposophy (online at:
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/JanusFaceOfAnthroposophy.html)
for my position of Steiner and racism.
Best,
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:01:40 -0500
From: "Lubert Das" (jfk3 sprint.ca)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
----- Original Message -----
From: "Su" (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
)
) Peter Zegers wrote:
) ) Hi Sharon,
) )
) ) You wrote: "One woman, who attended the Theosophist school in CA as a
) ) child recommended that it would be a good idea to say that anything bad
) ) that Steiner said should be considered something said when he was not
) ) clairvoyant. Anything that didn't feel good should be considered not of
) ) the spirit."
) )
) ) This is a good example of the Steiner-I-know (Waage) phenomenon very
) ) widespread in anthro-circles that Peter S. and I addressed in our
second
) ) reply to Waage. If you don't like it, ignore seems to be their way of
) ) dealing with unpleasant things (that is probably why the Shoah is not
) ) part of the curriculum in many Waldorf schools).
Su:
) This is a good example of cognitive dissonance phenomenon, that one
) encounters with any person or ideology that one follows, when something
) comes up that "doesn't fit" with the leader, philosopher, spirit,,etc,
) etc.
)
) You make up a good excuse for the "mistake" of the leader, ideology, or
) dissonant situation, so that it becomes part of the belief system, or at
) least acceptable. So Steiner wasn't in his clairvoyant mode. Geez.
)
) Sort of like the flying saucer group who expected one to come and take
) them all away one night. When it didn't happen, and of course the
) followers had sold all their possessions and were left with nothing to
) go home to, the leader told them that that was the intent, and part of
) the plan of the flying saucer...Wonder what happened to them...
)
) The dissonance was made acceptable by an "excuse".
Lubert scrawled:
Hi Su,
If this is the book by Leon Feistinger et al., "When Prophecy
Fails...", if it is still in your possession, ( I sent my copy on to my own
dyed-in-the-wool Anthro loons, to no effect), and if I recall correctly,
they list a number of points in the Intro, setting up their thesis, might
you possibly post those to the list. I found them helpful both in trying to
understand RS' shift from flogging his spiritual self-help stuff (PoF...)
around Europe, his failure to get any significant audience (hegemony), and
then the justifications made for the failure, following which it was time
to set up schools(proselyting); and his latter-day followers'
justifications of RS and their own failings. I nearly laughed my arse off
about the "mysterious hitchhiker" story: way too many times did I see the
same receptiveness to such low-grade mental-trash (ex: midsummer Anthro
workgroup meeting, thunderstorm, power outage, some genius whispers about
"*dark forces* around trying to prevent...", and they ALL take the outward
appearance of Solemn Determination to go on with the meeting...following a
prayer; no doubt it improves with every retelling, downright Wagnerian or
Tolkienish by now).
It never fails to amaze me that so many of these folks are so adamant
in refusing to examine their real historical roots, to see that they are so
far from alone in both method, content, and overall process (Feistinger
lists a couple of groups I had never heard of ). But I'm guessing that's
what is partly meant by the excuse of a "method without content": a tree
without roots, soil, etc (albeit a pretty damned lonely tree, since for
them there are no other REAL trees, let alone a forest, which might explain
in part their problem with perspective)...not at all concerned, except in
the most facile of idealizations, with the actual historical record
(tainted by Marxist/Materialist method) of real human beings. They get
their history from above, from the pulpit: middle-class idealists waiting
in the wings (No, no problem with either middle-class, or with idealists,
except when their intent is power; there are so many other better uses to
which they could, and quite possibly have, put it).
If it is not available to you lemme know, I'll keep poking around in the
piles of notes, gotta be somewhere...
In Bug-Eyed Disbelief (though I ought to know better by now),
Lubert
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:24:15 -0500
From: "Lubert Das" (jfk3 sprint.ca)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
----- Original Message -----
From: "Su" (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Lubert:
Su, sorry, I was unaware of Festinger's (correct spelling) work previous to
"When Prophecy Fails...", on which it is based. Please ignore my request.
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/propfail.htm
http://www.colorado.edu/communication/meta-discourses/Theory/festinger.htm
http://www.colorado.edu/communication/meta-discourses/theory.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:53:29 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
on 3/17/02 6:53 AM, Su at sufrito53 yahoo.com wrote:
)
) mysplum wrote:
) snip)
)) Interestingly Goethe made reference to Agrippa in Faust as the black
)) dog.
))
) Hi Sharon,
)
) Do you know why Goethe referred to Agrippa as the Black dog?
Sharon: Hi Su! Agrippa was not beloved by most of his contemporaries because
they considered him to be a black magician. Many occultists knew better,
Agrippa was merely an occultist like all the rest so his persecution was a
bit unfair. Anyway, people said he was followed by a black dog, a code for
black magic. Goethe has a reference to Agrippa in Faust which was a story
adored by Steiner. Since they all got a lot of their mumbo jumbo from
Agrippa I presume they were fond of him. One can never tell with occultists,
sometimes they are deliberately leading you astray, sometimes not.
Did you know that there was supposed to be a real live magician/occultist
named Faust? I think he lived in the 1400s...Trithemius mentioned him in a
letter written in 1507. Faust supposedly had a horse and dog spirit follow
him around. Some say he was a crook and a drunkard who studied magic at
Cracow. To others he became the model of the medieval magician. Lots of
people wrote about him, but Goethe's tale is the most famous.
)
) I am also wondering if you or others, either Dof's or Critics would be
) interested in explaining or summarizing the concepts of
) Imagination,Inspiration, and Intuition.
)
) They come up in so much of Steiner's writing. I would be interested in
) people's understanding of these entities.
Sharon: It would be a great discussion. They are Steiner's higher realms
that you reach by following his path. He is quick to point out that the
words mean something very different than their usual connotations. The world
of Imagination is full of colorful beings. The opaque beings are lower
entities, the transparent ones are higher entities. In Waldorf children
paint the transparent ones as a training. On future Venus (I think it's
Venus) people will communicate in colors and look like these beings or
something bizarre like that..it's all so wacky it's hard to keep tabs on it
all. I have some pages on Imagination, Inspiration and Intuition that I'll
try to dig up this week and post.
I'd also like an in depth discussion on group souls, I've got some wacky
stuff about strands of lions going up to the group soul for lions which
exists in one of these 3 realms...(shaking my head).
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:08:33 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no) wrote:
)Hi Sharon,
)
)You wrote: "One woman, who attended the Theosophist school in CA as a
)child recommended that it would be a good idea to say that anything bad
)that Steiner said should be considered something said when he was not
)clairvoyant. Anything that didn't feel good should be considered not of
)the spirit."
)
)This is a good example of the Steiner-I-know (Waage) phenomenon very
)widespread in anthro-circles that Peter S. and I addressed in our second
)reply to Waage. If you don't like it, ignore seems to be their way of
)dealing with unpleasant things (that is probably why the Shoah is not
)part of the curriculum in many Waldorf schools).
)
)Best,
)
)Peter Zegers
==================================================================
There should not be things like keeping what doesn't dislike to
critics and leave the rest. There is nothing to change. If some
individuals disagree with general topics, like evolution, they are
free to go and find some alternative 'vegetarian' view.
No replies.
--
__________________________________________________________________
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
http://shopnow.netscape.com/
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
http://webmail.netscape.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:46:21 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: RE: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Percedol,
I am surprized you are still here. Your cryptic message was: "There
should not be things like keeping what doesn't dislike to critics and
leave the rest. There is nothing to change. If some individuals disagree
with general topics, like evolution, they are free to go and find some
alternative 'vegetarian' view. No replies."
I take it that you are not a vegetarian then. If I understand you
correctly, you are saying that one either accepts the teachings of a
guru wholeheartedly or one leaves it behind. The teachings of gurus are
written in stone and can't be challenged: no discussion allowed. Are you
taking part in the discussions or are you just going to send us your
comments from the sidelines every now and then?
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 670
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By mysplum earthlink.net
Identity
By Percedol netscape.net
Identity 2
By Percedol netscape.net
Identity 3
By Percedol netscape.net
Admin: Re: Identity
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Sharing the news and greetings
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Admin: Re: Identity
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: Home visits
By momof2gals mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:52:10 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
on 3/17/02 7:08 PM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
) There should not be things like keeping what doesn't dislike to critics and
) leave the rest. There is nothing to change. If some individuals disagree with
) general topics, like evolution, they are free to go and find some alternative
) 'vegetarian' view.
) No replies.
)
Sharon: YuP! This is basically what the visiting Anthroposophist said to the
Theosophist who was feeling uneasy about some of Steiner's racist works.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:35:33 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: Identity
No-off list? (No translation available)
Ernesto Galli della Loggia, L???identit?? italiana, Bologna, Il
Mulino, 1998, 171 p.
??
??
??
Ce livre d???Ernesto Galli della Loggia inaugure une collection du
m??me nom aux ??ditions Mulino, et s???attache ?? ??num??rer, en
faisant preuve d???une grande ??rudition, les ??l??ments qui
caract??risent la politique, la soci??t?? et la culture italienne.
Jouant de l???ambivalence de la notion d???identit??, que l???auteur
ne d??finit pas, la r??flexion oscille entre une description de
l???Italie vue par elle-m??me, et une tendance sous-jacente ??
consid??rer les objets dont il est question comme immuables et
exclusivement italiens.
Dans le premier chapitre, l???auteur rappelle que ????l???Italie pour
des raisons naturelles a ??t?? pr??dispos??e ?? devenir un terrain de
rencontres???? (p. 8) et a subi des influences diversement
distribu??es, notamment dans l???axe Nord-Sud. La g??ographie de la
P??ninsule est vue comme une cl?? pour comprendre son histoire, et
l???auteur, consid??rant particuli??rement la barri??re apennine,
propose de remplacer les deux axes sus-cit??s par le bin??me
Occident-Orient. Mais la suite de ses r??flexions, visant ??
d??montrer que les diversit??s, ????loin de contredire les
interd??pendances et l???int??gration, en sont les pr??misses
n??cessaires???? (p. 17), est nettement moins convaincante.
L???auteur s???appuie en effet sur des assertions non v??rifiables,
comme ????l???accessibilit?? humaine et la perm??abilit??
culturelle???? du peuple italien (p. 19) qui auraient produit des
capacit??s d???adaptation, une propension au syncr??tisme, une
mobilit?? d???esprit, qui seraien!
t un trait de l???identit?? du pays, forg??e en r??action aux
invasions. Les deux caract??ristiques unificatrices de la P??ninsule
indiqu??es par l???auteur sont sa pauvret?? et sa beaut??. La
pauvret?? a notamment marqu?? l???anthropologie de ses habitants, en
leur donnant une ????capacit?? manipulatrice et d???imagination????,
la ????ruse???? et le fameux ????art de s???arranger???? italiens (p.
24-25). Toutes ces remarques ne sont appuy??es par aucune analyse
historique de ces qualit??s, et bien souvent la citation d???un
voyageur c??l??bre (Vidal de la Blache, Goethe) suffit pour toute
d??monstration.
Le chapitre suivant se veut historique, et analyse l???h??ritage
latin et catholique. L???auteur explique que Rome a l??gu?? ??
l???Italie la croyance en une unit??, mais aussi l???image d???une
Italie urbaine, divis??e en ????cent villes????. La conscience d???un
pass?? illustre a donn?? lieu ?? une politique de grandeur inadapt??e
(p. 34). Quant ?? l???Eglise, elle a donn?? la foi commune ?? tous
les Italiens, et le langage de la ????pietas chr??tienne???? (p. 45).
La fin du chapitre voit l???auteur se dresser contre les
cons??quences n??gatives de la Contre-R??forme, qui ont conduit ??
occulter les r??les positifs jou??s par l???Eglise. On remarque que
la vision de l???histoire de l???auteur tend ?? aplatir les
singularit??s de chaque ??poque pour constater des dysfonctionnements
permanents et immuables??: il explique notamment que la langue latine
et le droit romain ont marqu?? de leur empreinte la politique??: la
loi est per??ue comme d??tach??e de la r??alit?? et donc ho!
stile aux particuliers et surtout ?? la classe populaire. Mais il est
??vident que les critiques des Italiens des ann??es 1990 ne sont pas
comparables ?? celles des masses analphab??tes des si??cles
ant??rieurs.
Dans le troisi??me chapitre, l???auteur nous dresse un r??sum?? des
probl??mes li??s ?? la construction de l???Etat national italien,
voulant arriver au fait que ????la g??ographie de l???Etat et la
g??ographie de la soci??t?? ne se rencontrent pas???? (p. 81). Il se
concentre sur les modalit??s de r??alisation de l???unit?? italienne,
d???un point de vue g??opolitique. A partir du lieu commun qui
constate l???absence d???un centre d??cisionnel, il distingue un axe
g??ographique tyrrh??nien Turin-Florence-Naples, qui donne au pays
les impulsions ??tatiques. Il passe ensuite ?? la question
m??ridionale et ?? la fracture jamais combl??e entre le Nord des
communes libres et le Sud des barons, ????la c??sure entre identit??
nationale et identit?? italienne???? (p. 65). Au XXe si??cle, il
remarque un deuxi??me axe, le triangle Ravenne-Venise-Milan, qui
propose les nouvelles offres politiques??: socialisme, fascisme et
catholicisme politique (p. 78). Mais ces r??gions n???ont pas su!
se donner une forme ??tatique. On reste surpris de l???explication
que Galli della Loggia donne pour justifier l???incapacit?? de ces
forces vives du pays ?? conqu??rir l???Etat??: elles se seraient
heurt??es ?? ????l?????taticit?? (statualit??)
pi??montaise-napolitaine (?), g??r??e par une classe politique et
administrative d???origine m??ridionale???? (p. 80).
Le quatri??me chapitre s???inscrit au c??ur des d??bats actuels sur
l???identit?? italienne, en sondant plus particuli??rement la
question de l???individualisme et du familismo des Italiens. Mais
l???auteur ne fait que reprendre des citations c??l??bres (Leopardi,
Machiavel, Cattaneo). Il fait un tout monolytique de la ????structure
familiale-oligarchique-corporative???? (p. 102), accus??e
d?????touffer l???Etat. Bien que refusant de souscrire aux th??ories
simplifi??es de Banfield et Putnam, qui condamnent sans appel le
familismo amoral des Italiens comme contraire ?? toute culture
civique (E. C. Banfield, Le basi morali di una societ?? arretrata,
Bologna, Il Mulino, 1976 et R. D. Putnam, La tradizione civica delle
regioni italiane, Milano, Mondadori, 1993), il retombe dans les
consid??rations fatalistes sur l???organisation oligarchique de
l???aristocratie et de la bourgeoisie italiennes, notamment en
politique, et reproche ?? la soci??t?? italienne de n???avoir pas su
??vol!
uer vers son mod??le id??al de modernit??, ????la vocation libre et
volontaire???? (p. 107).
Galli della Loggia revient sur cette question du retard politique
italien dans le cinqui??me chapitre, o?? il ??voque l???absence
historique de l???Etat. Il attaque tout particuli??rement les
penseurs et intellectuels italiens, responsables, depuis la chute de
l???Empire romain, d???avoir diffus?? l???id??e de d??clin et
d???absence ou vide du pouvoir politique??: Rome est devenue par leur
faute le ????pass?? qui ne passe pas???? des Italiens (p. 117).
D???autre part, les intellectuels ont toujours ??t?? hostiles ??
l???institution eccl??siastique. Les fractures entre les
intellectuels et le peuple, ainsi qu???entre l???Etat et l???Eglise
seraient la raison de la non int??gration des masses dans l???Etat.
Au XIXe si??cle, De Sanctis nous l??gue une analyse qui ????superpose
l???identit?? politique italienne ?? la tradition
anti-eccl??siastique et nationale???? (p. 134). Galli della Loggia
accuse cette ligne interpr??tative d???avoir occult?? les deux
probl??mes majeurs selon l!
ui??: celui de l???absence de tradition ??tatique d???un c??t??, et
celui d???une soci??t?? italienne oligarchique de l???autre.
Dans le dernier chapitre, centr?? sur l???Italie unitaire, il
constate l???absence de modernit??, mais refuse de l???expliquer par
le manque de d??mocratie. Il ajoute ainsi une nouvelle lumi??re ?? sa
th??orie de ????la mort de la patrie???? le 8 septembre 1943 (E.
Galli della Loggia, La morte della patria, Roma-Bari, Laterza,
1996)??: la R??sistance??, en mettant au centre de son image de la
patrie l???id??al d??mocratique, ??chouait encore une fois ??
comprendre le c??ur du probl??me italien. Galli della Loggia s???en
prend lui ?? l???????hyperpolitisation???? (p. 142) des d??cisions,
qui sont ?? l???origine des pathologies italiennes??: ????beaucoup de
politique et peu d???Etat, beaucoup d???id??ologie et peu de culture
de l???Etat???? (p. 143). La modernit?? italienne n???est autre que
corporatisme, familismo, ??vasion fiscale, ill??galit?? de masse.
Ceci n???a pu ??tre que renforc?? par l???absence d???une ??lite
administrative, culturelle et sociale autonome vis-??-vis d!
e la politique. La confiance plac??e par la soci??t?? en l???Eglise
et en les Carabinieri montre par contraste le vide de l???Etat et la
????faiblesse d???identit?? nationale???? (p. 154)??. C???est encore
une fois l???absence d???une composante religieuse de la dimension
??tatique qui est regrett??e, alors que les valeurs religieuses,
identifi??es sans h??sitations aux valeurs publiques, sont les plus
r??pandues dans la population. En somme les conclusions du livre
d???Ernesto Galli della Loggia semblent s???inscrire dans la ligne
n??o-guelfe, ??tant donn??e l???importance politique et sociale
attribu??e au catholicisme.
Au terme de la lecture de L???identit?? italiana, on ne peut pas dire
d???avoir ??t?? ??clair??s sur la signification exacte du terme,
devenu d??sormais fourre-tout, d?????????identit?? italienne????. On
esp??rait au moins lire une introduction ?? la s??rie de
mini-monographies publi??es dans la collection dirig??e par Galli della
Loggia, mais la nature et la justification des livres qui vont suivre
ne sont jamais mentionn??es au cours du texte. Rien ne nous explique
le projet de l???auteur, qui, rien qu????? la lecture des titres de
la s??rie (Giordano Bruno, Loreto, I braccianti, La mamma, I
comunisti, La pasta e la pizza???), semble priv?? d???un v??ritable
fil directeur.
??
Laura Fournier
--
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:39:12 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: Identity 2
Dire "Patria", oggi, per noi ha un senso?
http://www.educational.rai.it/mat/dr/risp/galli01.asp
La parola ???patria???, come altre ??? ???nazione???, ???identit??
nazionale??? ??? ?? tornata in auge in Italia negli ultimi anni e, in
particolare, negli ultimi mesi. Complici, una serie di circostanze
politiche e, insieme, una serie di riletture storiografiche. Noi,
oggi, vogliamo capire cosa significhi la parola ???patria??? per un
italiano del 2001. E cosa abbia significato di volta in volta nelle
epoche precedenti. Di necessit??, partiamo dalla ???querelle???
storico-politica nata intorno al discorso pronunciato dal presidente
della Repubblica in visita a Cefalonia, sui luoghi del massacro di
soldati italiani effettuato dai tedeschi all'indomani dell'8
settembre del '43. Una ???querelle??? della quale lei, professor
Galli della Loggia, ?? stato protagonista. E rispetto alla quale lei,
professor Schiavone, credo abbia una posizione assai diversa. Volete
riassumerci i vostri punti di vista?
Galli della Loggia. Per la verit??, quella del Presidente della
Repubblica non ?? stata una ???querelle???. ?? accaduto semplicemente
che il Presidente della Repubblica in diverse occasioni e in breve
spazio di mesi si sia dichiarato contrario a un' interpretazione
storiografica circa i fatti del '43-45 in Italia, che pu?? essere
riassunta, e viene riassunta abitualmente, nella dizione ???morte
della Patria???.
Ora, siccome io ho scritto un libro che, appunto, segue questa
interpretazione storiografica, ho fatto osservare che non mi sembrava
appropriato che il Presidente della Repubblica si esprimesse a favore
o contro delle interpretazioni storiografiche e che si servisse per
farlo della sua alta carica. Penso che le alte cariche politiche non
debbano favorire alcune interpretazioni a danno di altre, non ?? loro
compito.
Anche se mi rendo conto naturalmente che, qui, abbiamo a che fare con
un nodo di avvenimenti dalla grandissima rilevanza politica.
Penso che sia del tutto lecito per ogni italiano adottare
l'interpretazione che preferisca e quindi mi sembra discutibile che
il Presidente della Repubblica si pronunci ufficialmente contro
alcune.
Dopo di che si apre il grande problema, nel merito, appunto, di cosa
successe in Italia tra il '43 e il '45. E questo ?? il problema che
vede divisi gli studiosi: c'?? chi, come il sottoscritto, pensa che
l?? ci sia stato un punto di frattura fortissimo nel rapporto tra gli
italiani e lo Stato nazionale. E vorrei sottolineare che, quando si
parla di ???patria???, a mio giudizio resta al centro del discorso
l'elemento dello Stato, della statualit??: ???patria??? ?? un
concetto politico, non ?? un concetto etnico, almeno questo credo
debba essere mantenuto fermo.
E c'?? invece chi, colleghi autorevoli e altrettanto informati dei
fatti, sostengono invece che c'?? stata, s??, questa frattura
determinata dall'8 settembre, nel rapporto tra italiani e Stato e
nazione, per?? essa ?? stata in larga parte sanata, rimarginata dagli
eventi successivi, in particolare dalla Resistenza. E su questo c'??
una discussione aperta che, probabilmente, continuer?? ancora a lungo.
Schiavone. Io credo che in questo piccolo scambio di idee che avete
avuto con il Presidente della Repubblica tu avessi, Ernesto,
sostanzialmente ragione su una questione: quando hai rivendicato il
fatto che non tocca alla Presidenza della Repubblica intervenire nel
merito di un dibattito storiografico.
Questo punto lo condivido. D'altro canto, ?? pur vero, e tu stesso lo
riconosci, che vi ?? una esigenza legittima e del tutto giustificata
che muove il Presidente Ciampi ed ?? quella di cercare di usare la
sua carica per ravvivare l'identit?? civile del Paese. Identit??
civile debole. Debole e fragile.
Fragile perch??? Per ragioni molto lontane nella storia d'Italia e
anche, e su questo avremo modo di intrattenerci rapidamente pi??
avanti, per ragioni pi?? legate al cinquantennio della storia
repubblicana.
Tu, dal punto di vista della formulazione lessicale, riprendi, come
hai pi?? volte detto, la frase di Satta. E la tua formulazione coglie
un problema storiografico, storico. Io credo che questa debolezza
congenita dell' identit?? civile italiana, in questi cinquant'anni,
sia dovuta a ragioni anche successive alle vicende del '43-'45 e
credo che vi sia una ragione specifica se questo tema si ??
riproposto adesso.
La ragione, sinteticamente, ?? questa. Io credo che in questi
cinquant'anni di storia repubblicana, quel poco di identit?? civile
che si ?? riusciti a mantenere nel Paese dipendesse molto dal lavoro
intellettuale, culturale, di orientamento dei due grandi partiti di
massa: il Pci e la Dc. E che la crisi dei grandi partiti di massa
abbia portato l'opinione pubblica a mettersi direttamente in rapporto
con la fragilit?? dello Stato, senza pi?? questo anello intermedio,
questo schermo di protezione.
Galli della Loggia. Se capisco bene, tu dici, appunto, che
l'appartenenza politica faceva aggio sull'appartenenza
civico-nazionale.
Schiavone. Senza dubbio. Ma tu sai bene che l'appartenenza ai partiti
non era solo una appartenenza politica, era una appartenenza???
Galli della Loggia: Ideologica, a 360 gradi.
Schiavone. Culturale, a 360 gradi, ed etica. E aggiungiamo un altro
elemento: l'educazione civile che veniva trasmessa all'opinione
pubblica italiana attraverso questi partiti era, per certi versi,
povera di contenuti nazionali, perch?? entrambi i partiti si
ispiravano a ideologie fortemente sovra-nazionali o de-nazionali: la
Chiesa, il marxismo.
Galli della Loggia. Quello che tu dici ?? una conferma che accolgo in
pieno dell'idea, da me pi?? volte sostenuta, che, per l'appunto,
l'Italia che esce dalla Resistenza ?? un'Italia che, per molte
ragioni naturalmente, ha una debolissima idea di ???patria???, di
nazione, ha una cultura nazionale debolissima, se non addirittura
evanescente.
Schiavone. Concordo. Ecco, in questa debolezza dell'Italia che usciva
dal '43-'45 c'era quello che tu chiami ???la morte della patria???. E
c'erano anche???
Galli della Loggia. La sconfitta del fascismo.
Schiavone. C'erano anche molte cose pi?? antiche. Ripeto: accoglierei
la tua categoria se fossimo in grado di proiettarla su uno sfondo
storico molto pi?? lungo.
Iris Levi. Di "patria" per secoli, prima del Risorgimento, parlavano
solo artisti e intellettuali , da Dante in poi. ?? stato quindi, a
lungo, come sostengono alcuni storici, un concetto elitario? O, come
sostengono altri storici, la lingua, l'italiano, cementava dal Medio
Evo una comunit?? pi?? ampia?
Galli della Loggia: Qui credo che si debba, appunto, ribadire una
distinzione fondamentale. L'"identit?? italiana" pu?? riferirsi ad
almeno due millenni o un millennio e mezzo di storia: l'Italia come
cultura, antropologia, letteratura, come cultura diffusa, ?? esistita
ben prima che sia esistito lo stato nazionale. A mio giudizio, per??,
si pu?? usare la parola ???patria??? soltanto da quando c'??,
appunto, un movimento che mira alla costituzione dello Stato
nazionale: cio??, a risalire il pi?? indietro possibile, dalla fine
del Settecento in avanti. Non direi che Machiavelli o Dante si siano
sentiti italiani in questo senso. Tanto pi?? Dante, che come ?? noto
aderiva all'idea imperiale, un'idea in cui, certo, all'Italia
spettava una funzione particolare???
Schiavone: Era un soggetto.
Galli della Loggia: Era un soggetto, insieme con altri. Per
Machiavelli, forse, si pu?? discutere di pi??. Ma, insomma, di
un'idea di ???patria??? italiana si pu?? parlare dalla fine del
Settecento in poi. Invece l'idea di Italia ?? un fatto storico che
risale ai primissimi secoli successivi alla caduta dell'Impero Romano
d'Occidente. Addirittura c'?? chi dice che esistesse gi?? in epoca
romana. Per??, appunto, io manterrei questa distinzione tra identit??
italiana e identit?? nazionale. Identit?? italiana ?? un'idea molto
pi?? ampia, identit?? nazionale implica l'elemento della statualit??.
Schiavone: S??, questa distinzione ?? importante. E, se diamo
all'espressione "identit?? italiana" un significato politico ,
nazionale, prima del Settecento ?? difficile parlarne.
E' pur vero che l'Italia ?? stata anche il paese che ha avuto il
processo di identificazione pi?? lungo nella storia dell'Occidente,
pi?? lungo anche dei Greci, e questo ha avuto un peso nella nostra
storia. L'identit?? dell'Italia romana, secondo questa formula che
abbiamo introdotto Andrea Giardina e io, certo era una identit??
incompiuta, e questa incompiutezza s'??, in qualche modo, trasferita
poi nel Medio Evo.
Io credo che ci sia stata ??? e mi piacerebbe che i nostri
ascoltatori questo lo considerassero un fatto centrale ??? una
formazione progressiva di un carattere italiano, e quindi di una
identit?? italiana, molto precedente alla formazione di una identit??
politica italiana. E credo che noi, oggi, su questo dovremmo far leva.
Oggi, a far leva sugli aspetti che hanno caratterizzato la nostra
identit?? politica, nel senso di costruzione dello Stato, ci troviamo
in difficolt??. Mentre per ravvivare l'identit?? civile del Paese,
dovremmo giocare su questi contenuti di identit?? italiana che sono i
precipitati di una storia lunghissima. Certo non sempre esaltante.
Alcuni di questi contenuti possono non piacerci, ma essi sono
comunque il condensato, il precipitato, la cristallizzazione di una
storia lunghissima, dentro la quale ci sono cose belle e importanti.
Non so se possiamo parlare di una ??lite, certo la percezione di
questa identit?? deve molto all'elaborazione culturale che ha
accompagnato la nostra storia d'Italia e che, certo, non ?? diventata
mai coscienza di massa. Opera di una ??lite la cui forza culturale
poi, per??, aveva una capacit?? di irradiazione dentro e fuori il
Paese.
Galli della Loggia: Forse qui c'?? da ricordare che una nostre
caratteristiche specifiche ?? la fortissima identit?? delle singole
parti dell'Italia: delle citt??. E questo, naturalmente, rende pi??
difficile la percezione dell'unit??.
Schiavone: Questo crea il grande problema, Ernesto, della quadratura
del cerchio della storia d'Italia: nel momento in cui le identit??
comunali e regionali si affermavano con pi?? forza, tanto pi?? era
difficile quadrare il cerchio e costruire l'unit??. Il problema sul
quale si ?? rotto la testa Machiavelli e in qualche modo, in modo
pi?? pessimistico, Guicciardini . Il municipalismo, se da un lato
determinava quel fiorire straordinario di civilt?? e di cultura
comunale che ha rimesso in moto la storia d'Europa, dalla rivoluzione
urbana all'Umanesimo e al Rinascimento, d'altro lato era un freno
alla costruzione di un'unit?? cui arrivavano pi?? facilmente altre
comunit?? nelle quali questo fiorire locale era meno forte. Perch??
la civilt?? urbana aveva radici pi?? deboli. E questo ?? uno dei
grandi nodi insoluti della storia d'Italia che ci portiamo dietro.
Galli della Loggia: E che abbiamo anche davanti oggi. Il nodo che ??
alla base di tutto questo fermento federalista: il tentativo di
mettere insieme Stato nazionale e identit?? locali molto forti.
Schiavone: Identit?? locali che, nel momento in cui il Paese cresce,
riaffiorano con forza.
Galli della Loggia: Ma, a proposito del federalismo, c'?? da dire che
in Italia pi?? che le identit?? regionali sono stati forti le
identit?? comunali: la citt?? e il suo contado. Identit?? regionali
forti sono due o tre, forse: c'?? una identit?? veneta, una identit??
toscana, il resto sono identit?? sub-regionali, provinciali. Il
federalismo regionale pu?? essere per molte realt?? una camicia di
forza.
Valerio Biagi. Cosa significava "patria" per i parlamentari che il 17
marzo del 1861 ratificarono la nascita del nuovo Regno?
Galli della Loggia. Significava innanzitutto il compimento di un
sogno che aveva impregnato le biografie personali di moltissimi di
questi italiani convenuti a Torino e che erano stati, nelle
rispettive regioni, i protagonisti del movimento risorgimentale. E
rappresentava, altres??, il compimento di un sogno secolare
dell'intellettualit?? italiana. L'Italia per secoli e secoli aveva
visto sostanzialmente due grandi poteri politici: il potere politico
della Chiesa e il potere politico del Sacro romano impero, che si era
poi, diciamo cos??, trasformato in un'egemonia politica dell'Austria,
e precedentemente in un'egemonia politica della Spagna.
Per la prima volta il potere politico italiano ritornava nelle mani
di italiani che non erano, appunto, membri della Chiesa cattolica.
Per la prima volta nasceva un potere politico italiano in forme, tra
l'altro, consensuali.
Schiavone: Anche se con un consenso molto ristretto.
Galli della Loggia: Per?? gli ordinamenti liberali ??? L'Italia era
un Paese libero, una patria libera non solo dal dominio straniero.
Nei limiti del liberalismo ottocentesco, notabilare e censitario era
un Paese che lasciava aperto un cammino di libert?? che nei decenni
successivi, fino al fascismo, sarebbe stato compiuto.
Dal punto di vista del bilancio storiografico, penso che il
compimento dell'unit?? nazionale sia stato il fatto pi?? importante
accaduto agli italiani, alle singole biografie, degli italiani nati
dopo il 1860. Lo Stato nazionale ha significato un ampliamento della
sfera della libert?? e della ricchezza degli italiani che
difficilmente, altrimenti, ci sarebbe stata .
E dobbiamo conservare il ricordo di quello che avvenne quel giorno di
marzo del 1861, la memoria di questa svolta decisiva della nostra
storia.
Schiavone: Guardando retrospettivamente a questi due secoli di storia
italiana, il XIX e il XX secolo, non possiamo nasconderci che il
processo di unificazione del Paese si ?? svolto in quello che, a me,
appare sempre di pi?? come il secolo ???peggiore??? della storia
d'Italia, dal punto di vista culturale e dal punto di vista della
crescita della societ?? civile.
Galli della Loggia: Intendi l'Ottocento o il Novecento?
Schiavone: Il Novecento ?? stato un secolo terribile, ma non brutto
da questo punto di vista. Intendo l'Ottocento. Un altro Paese
arrivato all'unit?? molto tardi, la Germania, ha vissuto invece
nell'Ottocento un secolo straordinario quanto a storia della sua
cultura: un secolo che si ?? aperto quando Kant ancora scriveva e si
?? chiuso con Einstein gi?? al lavoro.
Galli della Loggia: Vuoi dire, insomma, che il compimento della
nostra unit?? nazionale ?? arrivato nel momento pi?? basso del nostro
sviluppo sociale-civile ed economico, anche.
Schiavone: Esattamente. Io credo non a caso, perch?? se fosse andata
diversamente si sarebbe riproposto il problema cinquecentesco di
Machiavelli. Invece, l??, c'era un'unica realt?? culturalmente
debole, ma politicamente e militarmente in grado di concepire il
progetto: il Piemonte che ha unificato il Paese. Tener presente
questa fragilit?? culturale dell'Ottocento italiano ci aiuta non a
costruire una specie di anti-retorica del Risorgimento, cosa che non
mi interessa affatto, ma a capire le tragedie del secolo successivo.
Galli della Loggia: Per fragilit?? culturali significa per esempio
che noi abbiamo dovuto costruire lo Stato nazionale con materiali
tutti presi in prestito?
Schiavone: Senza dubbio.
Galli della Loggia: Dalle culture europee???
Schiavone: Francia e Germania???
Galli della Loggia: Abbiamo dovuto prendere il Parlamento e lo
Statuto, ricopiandolo, diciamo cos??, su quanto avevano fatto gli
altri.
Schiavone. E quel po' che c'era, per vicende interne alla storia
intellettuale italiana, vicende anche accademiche, ?? stato poi
emarginato. Pensa a Cattaneo,pensa a che cosa sarebbe stato un
Risorgimento in cui Cattaneo fosse risultato un elemento centrale. Ma
questo ?? un discorso che ha poco senso???.
Galli della Loggia. La storia con i se.
Alessio Iovani. Cosa significava, all'indomani dell'unificazione, la
parola "patria" per le masse del Meridione?
Galli della Loggia. Pochissimo.
Schiavone. E quel poco, negativo.
Galli della Loggia. Significava abbastanza poco anche per le
popolazioni dell'Italia settentrionale. Non dimentichiamo che una
forte ostilit?? all' italianizzazione ci fu anche nelle masse
contadine del Veneto, non soltanto nel Mezzogiorno, cosa di cui
solitamente si parla. Per?? non credo che questo sia un argomento
storiografico che ci possa dire qualcosa sul carattere positivo o
negativo dell'evento. Ci dice qualcosa sulle difficolt?? all'interno
delle quali l'evento si ?? costruito: senza un consenso di massa,
senza, appunto, un consenso soprattutto delle masse contadine.
D'altra parte, l'idea che ,invece, l'unit?? si sarebbe potuta fare
con il consenso, dal punto di vista storiografico ?? un'idea che oggi
non gode pi?? molto credito. Intendo la vecchia idea gramsciana che
il partito d'Azione, i mazziniani, avrebbero dovuto e potuto
suscitare la rivoluzione nelle campagne: no, questo avrebbe suscitato
un tale allarme a livello internazionale??? Non dimentichiamoci che
per l'unit?? d'Italia fu essenziale una congiuntura internazionale
favorevolissima???
Schiavone. L'Inghilterra.
Galli della Loggia. E giocata con grande maestria da Cavour. Una
rivoluzione italiana guidata da Mazzini avrebbe avuto l'ostilit?? di
tutti. Dunque, la parola "patria" voleva dire pochissimo . E si ??
dovuta costruire un'esperienza statale nazionale partendo da quel
poco. Un poco che per?? lentamente, progressivamente, si ?? allargato.
Schiavone. "Patria" significava una retorica imposta con le
baionette, la retorica di quella che veniva percepita dalle masse
meridionali???
Galli della Loggia. Significava servizio di leva, tasse.
Schiavone. ??? veniva percepita come un'occupazione militare, come
invasione, dominio straniero . Questa ?? una delle tragedie di cui
parlavo. Credo anch'io che per?? una soluzione diversa sarebbe stata
impossibile . Il contesto internazionale era quello che era, e lo
stesso Cavour lo ha usato con l'abilit?? che oggi sempre di pi??
siamo in grado di ricostruire. Lui stesso, come sappiamo, fino alla
fine probabilmente pensava ad una soluzione diversa, non a una
soluzione unitaria. Con i caratteri che invece ha avuto dopo il '65,
dopo la sua morte.
Galli della Loggia. La spedizione dei Mille fu decisiva
nell'allargare un progetto di unit?? d'Italia che doveva fermarsi
all'Arno.
Schiavone. Detto questo, io credo che per?? poi qualcosa ?? stato
fatto. Se pensiamo allo sforzo di nazionalizzazione delle masse
compiuto dalla vecchia Italia liberale, lo sforzo che si ??
verificato in Italia dall'ultimo decennio dell'Ottocento fino alla
Prima guerra mondiale, e del quale la Prima guerra mondiale ?? stata
una verifica sul campo, tutt'altro che fallimentare da questo punto
di vista.
Galli della Loggia. Per la verit??, bisognerebbe aggiungere che un
effetto di nazionalizzazione delle masse, l'ha avuto anche la nascita
dei partiti, del partito operaio, del partito socialista.
Schiavone. La tragedia della Prima guerra mondiale, per??, ha
travolto tutto questo, ha determinato la nascita del fascismo e la
radicalizzazione del movimento operaio.
Galli della Loggia. La Prima guerra mondiale ?? stata una prova molto
difficile, ma superata. Il problema ?? stato il dopoguerra: quando ??
venuto al pettine forse il nodo del mancato consenso delle masse o,
forse, il nodo delle lotte interne ai gruppi dirigenti.
Schiavone. Io direi l'incapacit?? del Paese a reggere le sfide del
nuovo scenario internazionale economico- politico imposto dalla Prima
guerra mondiale.
Amedeo Laudadio. Con il fascismo essere "patrioti" divent??
un'imposizione. Con quali conseguenze per il significato e la fortuna
dell'idea?
Schiavone. Certamente negative, molto negative. Qui, per??, vorrei
tornare sul discorso che faceva Ernesto all'inizio e che ormai ?? il
"suo" discorso, quello della "morte della patria". Io credo che nel
'43-'45 quando l'apparato del fascismo si ?? disgregato, quando
questa nazionalizzazione delle masse forzata, indotta dal fascismo,
si ?? disgregata ha gettato discredito , retrospettivamente, su
qualcosa di pi?? lontano. Il fascismo ha travolto con s?? tutta la
storia liberale, il ciclo che era iniziato nel 1861.
Galli della Loggia. Tutta la storia nazionale ?? stata travolta dal
fascismo che se ne era considerato, diciamo cos??, l'erede universale.
Schiavone. Esattamente. Il fascismo si era considerato l'erede
universale, il potenziatore, ci?? che solidificava quelle istanze e
le proiettava su uno scenario di potenza mondiale, e tutto questo ??
stato travolto. ?? andato in pezzi con il fascismo l'unico tentativo
di tutta la nostra storia millenaria di costruire una identit??
nazionale su contenuti, diciamo, politico-militari.
Galli della Loggia. La storia del fascismo ?? anche una illustrazione
del terribile pericolo che corre l'idea di nazione quando se ne
appropria politicamente una parte, quando non ?? pi?? un valore
condiviso da una collettivit?? e da tutte le sue forze politiche,
bens?? viene monopolizzata da una parte. Il che realizza proprio
tecnicamente ci?? che si dice un "regime": si ?? italiani solo se si
?? fascisti. Fino al punto che chi non era fascista veniva privato di
cittadinanza italiana: apparentemente sembra un rafforzamento, a
molti contemporanei probabilmente sembr?? che il fascismo rafforzasse
enormemente l'idea di nazione, in realt?? ne preparava la catastrofe,
proprio perch?? lo connotava politicamente.
Quindi, come tu dicevi, la rovina del fascismo fu la rovina di tutta
l'idea di nazione e del rapporto degli italiani con la nazione
costruita dal 1861.
Ludovico Bertolone. I partigiani si definivano "patrioti". Patrioti
che lottavano per la liberazione dell'Italia e, insieme, per diversi
progetti politici: per un'Italia socialista, o cattolico-democratica,
o di "giustizia e libert??". Ragioni in qualche modo analoghe a
quelle dei mazziniani, i cavouriani, i garibaldini di un secolo
prima? Oppure la Resistenza ha visto mutare a fondo il concetto di
"patria"?
Schiavone. Io non spingerei troppo questa analogia
Resistenza-Risorgimento. Questa connessione mi pare che si inserisca
in certi disegni retorici , nel tentativo di trovare una certa specie
di icone della storia d'Italia. No, io credo che nelle idee della
Resistenza ci fosse fortissimo il desiderio di fare del passato una
tabula rasa. Credo, cio??, che questa percezione di cui stavamo
parlando un attimo fa, che si fosse chiuso un ciclo che aveva
travolto non solo il fascismo, ma anche la nazionalizzazione liberale
delle masse, se possiamo inventare questa espressione, l'avessero
fortissima, coloro che combattevano nella Resistenza nei vari
orientamenti ideali, da quello cattolico a quello comunista.
Fare tabula rasa, inserire una discontinuit?? forte nella storia
d'Italia, ripartire daccapo dal punto di vista istituzionale, etico,
dal punto di vista del patto sociale tra i cittadini, la
collettivit?? e lo Stato. Il punto ?? - e qui si apre il discorso
sulla storia di questi ultimi cinquant'anni - che quella esigenza di
discontinuit?? non ?? stata poi soddisfatta storicamente. Abbiamo
avuto la Repubblica, ma non abbiamo avuto una vera rottura nella
storia dello Stato. La Repubblica ha immediatamente introiettato le
forme statuali dell' ancien r??gime .
Galli della Loggia. Tornando alla domanda che faceva il nostro
spettatore, ecco, ribadirei un punto che mi sembra importante. Dice:
"tutte le forze politiche in campo durante la Resistenza combattevano
con l'obiettivo della liberazione dell'Italia dal fascismo e dal
nazismo e, insieme, ognuna per il suo progetto politico". Il problema
e la diversit?? rispetto al Risorgimento, e anch'io sono d'accordo
che sarebbe meglio, diciamo cos?????
Schiavone. Tenere distinte le due cose.
Galli della Loggia. S??, ogni fatto storico distinto per se stesso.
Il problema che nasce da questa combinazione di obiettivi,
l'obiettivo della liberazione dell'Italia e l'obiettivo specifico del
proprio progetto politico ?? che, oggettivamente, in alcuni casi
questi due obiettivi erano difficilmente compatibili. L'obiettivo
delle forze di sinistra che si muovevano nell'ottica delle esigenze
statali dell'Unione Sovietica, che avevano un legame di ferro con
l'Unione Sovietica, ?? difficile immaginare che potesse conciliarsi
con una libert?? dell'Italia, liberazione dell'Italia quale noi oggi
comunemente la intendiamo. Questo non vuol dire che i militanti
comunisti della Resistenza agissero nell'ottica di rendere la propria
lotta funzionale alle esigenze dell'Unione Sovietica, non c'era
assolutamente questo animus soggettivo. Erano, quindi, dei patrioti.
Naturalmente per?? il quadro ideologico che facevano proprio, a loro
dispetto era iscritto in un disegno molto lontano da quello che
poteva essere il disegno della libert?? italiana.
A volte la storia, soprattutto la storia del Novecento, ha visto
questi spaventosi intrecci: si ?? militato in campi ideologici in cui
poi non ci si poteva riconoscere, quando essi arrivavano a
manifestare la loro vera natura. Questo problema ?? stato centrale
nel dramma resistenziale e post-resistenziale.
Schiavone. Non c'?? dubbio. D'altra parte il nostro Novecento ??
stato un secolo terribile: noi in Italia nello stesso secolo abbiamo
inventato il fascismo e abbiamo avuto, immediatamente dopo, il pi??
forte partito comunista dell'occidente. Abbiamo tenuto insieme
elementi di una tragicit?? straordinaria. Detto questo mi chiedo,
tornando sugli anni della Resistenza, come mai quei progetti non
siano riusciti a produrre, nonostante il massimalismo, o forse
proprio a causa di alcuni massimalismi, a produrre una rottura, una
discontinuit??.
Galli della Loggia. Secondo me per la stessa ragione per cui a molti
italiani nel 1865 l'Italia unita parve troppo simile all'Italia
precedente. La Resistenza fu un fatto sostanzialmente di ??lite, ci
fu una grande assenza della stragrande maggioranza degli italiani,
quindi le forze dirigenti, a cominciare da quelle di sinistra, si
resero conto che non si poteva andare a una rottura radicale con le
istituzioni , con la macchina statale.
Schiavone. I due grandi partiti di massa hanno in qualche modo
barattato il consenso con la continuit??, hanno chiesto consenso e
dato continuit??.
Galli della Loggia. Era difficile non tener conto del consenso,
soprattutto perch?? si usciva da un'esperienza come quella fascista,
e una cultura politica di tipo qualunquistico- reazionario era ancora
diffusissima. Era difficile fare il passo tanto lungo da rompere il
legame con il passato .
Schiavone. Mi piacerebbe pensare che abbia influito nelle scelte di
quegli anni anche la soggettivit?? dei protagonisti. Forse le
condizioni in campo permettevano soluzioni un po' diverse. Mi
riferisco alla soggettivit?? di Togliatti e di De Gasperi. Continuo a
chiedermi se le forze in campo in quegli anni non avrebbero
consentito una soluzione meno grigiamente continuista .
Galli della Loggia. Una soluzione diversa avrebbe avuto bisogno di
una leadership, un leader di cultura giacobina. E sicuramente n??
Togliatti n?? De Gasperi avevano una cultura giacobina. Erano, anzi,
proprio, bench?? portatori di culture diversissime tra di loro???
Schiavone. Assolutamente antiromantici, antigiacobini.
Galli della Loggia. Non avevano nulla di giacobino, nulla che li
portasse a forzature dall'alto in nome di un raggiungimento di
obiettivi ideali. Erano dominati entrambi da concezioni molto
realistiche ed erano molto attenti ai rapporti di forza in contesti
internazionali.
Schiavone. Tutti e due avevano, poi, questo senso di eterogenesi dei
fini, dovuto all'universalismo, quel nucleo messianico che c'era in
entrambi le dottrine, e quindi "??? noi per adesso accomodiamo le
cose nel modo pi?? indolore possibile e poi si vedr?? e poi si far??".
Galli della Loggia. Storicamente le cose sono andate cos?? ed ??
difficile dire che potessero andare diversamente.
In questo senso c'?? una analogia tra Risorgimento e Resistenza, ??
la stessa cosa di coloro che, appena fatto il Risorgimento,
incominciarono a dire: "Ma, poteva essere fatto in maniera un po'
diversa, un po' pi?????."
--
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:44:34 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: Identity 3
http://www.romacivica.net/anpiroma/resistenza/revisionismo/resistenza9.htm
Resistenza e revisionismo
"Lettera a Ciampi.
Presidente, parliamo della Patria"
di Ernesto Galli della Loggia
Signor presidente,
in una lunga intervista-conversazione pubblicata ieri su
???Repubblica??? , a commento del suo viaggio a Cefalonia, per rendere
omaggio ai caduti della divisione Acqui, ella esordisce con queste
parole: ???Non ho mai capito cosa intendano i teorici della ???morte
della Patria???, che indicano nell???8 settembre la data di questo lutto
senza ritorno. A sentir loro, la Patria, l???idea di Patria, che allora
sarebbe stata travolta, non ?? mai risorta. E noi cosa saremmo
dunque, oggi: italiani, cittadini senza Patria????.
Ebbene, come forse ella sa, capita che proprio io sia uno di quei ???
teorici??? di cui lei parla (in ottima compagnia peraltro, a cominciare
da Renzo De Felice e lndro Montanelli), che proprio io abbia
ripescato l??? espressione ???morte della Patria??? da un vecchio testo di
Salvatore Satta, per farne il titolo prima di un mio saggio, poi di un
libro. Le cui tesi ella ha pi?? volte, in questi ultimi tempi, contestato,
ma forse mai con la sommaria perentoriet?? che ha usato in questa
occasione e che, dunque, sollecita una risposta.
Come comprender??, lo faccio con un certo disagio, infatti, io
insegno da molti anni Storia contemporanea in una universit?? della
Repubblica, e non avrei mai immaginato, signor presidente, di
essere costretto, un giorno, a dover discutere i risultati della mia
ricerca con il capo dello Stato, di dover rendere conto a lui di quei
medesimi risultati; di doverli difendere dalle critiche della pi?? alta
carica politica del mio Paese.
Ho sempre pensato e continuo a pensare, all???opposto, che in una
democrazia non ?? compito dei politici ??? in specie di chi vi copre
importanti ruoli istituzionali ??? dire la propria nel merito di complessi
problemi storiografici, n?? tanto meno esprimere le proprie personali
preferenze per questa o quella interpretazione del passato: con
l???eventuale, ma a quel punto logicamente inevitabile, conseguenza
di censurare, di fatto, i libri e i manuali che le divulgano.
Ma lei ??, evidentemente, convinto del contrario, signor presidente,
e lo ha pi?? volte dimostrato nella maniera pi?? altisonante, come
appunto ha fatto ieri.
Leggendo con attenzione le sue parole, io non riesco a liberarmi dal
sospetto, tuttavia, che ella abbia frainteso le tesi dei ???teorici??? che
critica. Non le sarebbe sfuggito, altrimenti, signor presidente, quello
che ?? l???aspetto centrale e decisivo della questione della ???morte
della Patria???. Che non riguarda affatto l???8 settembre, se non come
punto di partenza analitico, ma ha come oggetto, vero e principale,
i molti decenni che seguirono quella data: cio?? il clima politico,
ideologico, culturale che ha caratterizzato almeno mezzo secolo di
vita repubblicana. Mi spiegher?? con un esempio: lo sa, signor
presidente, che nel volume ??? ;Una guerra civile??? di Claudio Pavone
??? il quale pure scrive, oggi, che Cefalonia fu ???tra gli atti fondativi
della Resistenza??? ??? ebbene lo sa che, in quel libro di 800 pagine,
uscito nel 1991, della strage di Cefalonia, di come essa avvenne e
perch??, non si dice nulla? Che il nome del generale Gandin e quello
del capitano Pampaloni neppure vi sono ricordati di sfuggita???
Ecco cosa ?? stata la ???morte della Patria???, signor presidente. Il fatto
che ??? ancora dieci anni fa ??? nel libro pur, per molti versi, ottimo di
uno storico di valore, i morti dopo l???8 settembre del Regio Esercito,
morti spesso in nome del Re, godevano di un???attenzione e
considerazione minori (molto, molto minori: fino al silenzio) di quelli
dei partiti antifascisti, dei morti partigiani.
Dunque, quando nell???intervista a ???Repubblica??? ella chiede ai teorici
della ???morte della Patria??? in qual modo essi possano ignorare eventi
come Cefalonia, lei, signor presidente, si rivolge alle persone
sbagliate. Ad altri va rivolta quella domanda, o meglio andava
rivolta: dal momento che oggi anche i dimentichi di ieri, anche loro,
hanno scoperto Cefalonia e la resistenza militare, affrettandosi a
dargli il rilievo che l???una e l???altra meritano. Oggi, per??. Controlli,
signor presidente: vada a vedere quante volte e come ?? ricordata
la strage di Cefalonia nei libri sulla Resistenza che uscivano fino a
qualche anno fa.??
Proprio ricordando la strage di Cefalonia e quella di Porzus; via
Rasella e il dramma del confine orientale; l???assenza del Mezzogiorno
e la presenza di una massiccia ???zona grigia???: proprio ricordando
quanti fatti del 1943-45 siano stati poi dimenticati o
???addomesticati??? per anni, dalla vulgata corrente tutta ispirata dalla
sinistra; proprio ricordando a quali e quante pochezze, divisioni e
contraddizioni laceranti la Resistenza dovette in realt?? assistere;
proprio su tale base, qualcuno ?? arrivato a concludere che essa ???
pur con tutto l???afflato patriottico di chi vi prese parte ??? non riusc??,
n?? poteva riuscire a produrre il radicamento, nell???ltalia repubblicana,
di un forte sen timento nazionale, in sostituzione di quello andato
distrutto con il fascismo e la sconfitta bellica.
?? accaduto cos?? che, per cinquant???anni, l???ltalia sia stata una
democrazia senza nazione, senza ???patria???, appunto. Un Paese in cui
la patria era morta. Non lo crede anche lei, signor presidente???
Davvero lei pensa che, invece, nel nostro Paese ci sia stato un
vero sentimento patriottico, un vero e diffuso sentimento
nazionale? Ma ??? mi chiedo e rispettosamente le chiedo ??? da quale
singolare spirito nazional-patriottico era animato, un Paese in cui
met?? dei cittadini ha temuto per anni di essere arrestata,
deportata e magari fatta fuori dall??? altra met??? In cui nessuna
scelta di politica estera ?? stata fatta con il consenso di tutti? Che
???patria??? era quella in cui influenze straniere hanno potuto fare quasi
tutto ci?? che volevano? Dove l???esercito e le forze di polizia sono
stati considerati ??? per decenni, da molti, da moltissimi ??? non
simbolo di unit?? bens?? ; di divisione e di pericolo per la democrazia?
Dove, dalla memoria della Resistenza, erano virtualmente espulsi i
morti politicamente sgraditi o indifferenti al Cln, ma caduti anch???essi
in nome dell???ltalia? E del resto, signor presidente, se per mezzo
secolo avessimo davvero avuto una patria, se per tutto questo
tempo ci fossimo tutti davvero riconosciuti in un inno e in una
bandiera, animati da un vero spirito di solidariet?? nazionale, se
tutto ci?? ??? come bisognerebbe desumere dalle sue parole ??? fosse
stato vero, a che pro allora il suo lodevole sforzo, dal momento in
cui ?? entrato in carica, per riaccreditare bandiera e inno,
monumenti e sentimenti della patria? A che pro questo continuo
parlare che lei fa di nazione e di Italia? E che senso avrebbero mai
la novit?? e il merito che, per tutto ci??, l???opinione pubblica volentieri
le riconosce, se da sempre avessimo dimestichezza con gesti come
quelli che lei compie, con parole come quelle che lei pronuncia?
Come italiano, penso che sia una fortuna che lei oggi possa
compiere quei gesti e pronunciare quelle parole. ?? il segno che,
forse, ?? finalmente finito il lungo dopoguerra ed ?? iniziata un???altra e
nuova stagione ; che, caduto il comunismo, tutti i muri sono
caduti, anche quelli che cosi a lungo ci hanno separati dalla nostra
Patria.
Ma tra i doveri degli storici non c????? quello di essere patriottici. Gli
storici hanno semplicemente il dovere di studiare il passato, di
salvarlo alla memoria ricostruendolo secondo la loro capacit?? e la
loro coscienza, senza farsi influenzare dalle mode e dalle necessit??
dell???oggi, senza prestare ascolto alle suggestioni dell???ora. E
naturalmente hanno il dovere di non farsi condizionare dalle
polemiche aggressive di chicchessia, fossero anche le sue, signor
presidente. Con il massimo rispetto.
( ???Corriere della sera???, 4 marzo 2001)
"Risposta a Galli della Loggia. Io, la Patria
e i doveri di testimone"
di Carlo Azeglio Ciampi
??
Chiarissimo Professore, non sono uno storico, non intendo sostituirmi
agli storici. Ho vissuto, come giovane ufficiale di complemento, le
drammatiche
vicende del 1943: sono quindi, e so di essere, soltanto un
testimone. Ho vissuto il collasso dello Stato; ho vissuto lo smarrimento
dell???assenza di ???ordini??? in un momento, credo, il pi?? tragico nella
storia della nostra Italia. Come tanti altri nelle mie condizioni,
trovammo nelle nostre coscienze l???orientamento: in quelle coscienze
vibrava profondo il senso della Patria.
Questo intendo dire con la mia testimonianza di cittadino. La mia
successiva esperienza al servizio dello Stato per oltre cinquant???anni
non mi consente di condividere l???opinione che, per tutto quel
periodo, pur cos?? travagliato, l???Italia sia stata ???una democrazia
senza Patria???.??
Come Presidente della Repubblica Italiana, sin dal primo giorno del
mandato, ho ritenuto di dover esprimere con immediatezza il mio
animo.?? Ho avvertito come spontanea risposta degli italiani un forte
desiderio di riconoscersi nell???affermazione di valori condivisi. Di qui il
consenso e la partecipazione a ogni iniziativa che attesti
pubblicamente quei valori, senza retorica ma con puntuali richiami a
istituzioni, fatti, episodi.??
Amo la lettura dei libri di storia. Ho grande rispetto per il lavoro,
documentario e interpretativo, degli storici. So quanto siano
essenziali, nell???uno e nell???altro aspetto, l???autonomia di ricerca e di
giudizio, la ripulsa di ogni condizionamento. Sono valori che fanno
parte costitutiva dell???etica civile, sulla cui solidit?? si fonda la stessa
unit?? nazionale.
Non ritengo per?? che sia di esclusiva competenza degli storici di
professione il riflettere sul passato.
?? da questa riflessione che ogni cittadino, e ancor pi?? chi ha
responsabilit?? politiche o istituzionali, deve trarre ispirazione per il
proprio impegno civile, per il proprio operare. Rendere poi note
queste riflessioni e valutazioni non ?? unatto censorio, ma un atto
dovuto.?? Vuole contribuire a tener vivo nei cittadini un forte senso della
Patria. Sono lieto che Lei esprima in proposito un giudizio positivo.
Con viva cordialit??,
Carlo Azeglio Ciampi
( ???Corriere della sera???, 5 marzo 2001)
--
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:08:36 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: Re: Identity
Percedol, you posted,
)No-off list? (No translation available)
)
)Ernesto Galli della Loggia, L???identit?? italiana, Bologna, Il
)Mulino, 1998, 171 p.
)??
)??
)??
)Ce livre d???Ernesto Galli della Loggia inaugure une collection du
)m??me nom aux ??ditions Mulino, et s???attache ?? ??num??rer, en
)faisant preuve d???une
(snip)
Please, since most of the subscribers read English only, if you post
something in another language, include a translation or at least add
your summary of its contents or some explanation of its value.
Thank you,
Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 18:03:36 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Sharing the news and greetings
Relaying the news.... A strong decision against First Amendment violations.
Freedom From Religion Foundation and a group of parents who did not approve
of religious proselytizing in their public school just won another victory
for church / state separationists. A Tennessee school broke the law for
decades, teaching weekly Bible classes in Rhea County public schools. The
judge in Tennessee issued a forceful decision in February declaring the
classes unconstitutional. Here's what the judge said: The government,
through its public school system, may not teach, or allow the teaching of a
distinct religious viewpoint" he also said the program had "both the purpose
and effect to endorse and advance religion in the public schools".
About a month ago Dan Dugan posted another FFRF victory on W critics, if you
remember, they had challenged "faith-based funding" of Faith Works. Here are
some letters the Foundation received in response to their legal victory
which reinforced church/state separation.
"Your so called win against Faith Works may be a win for your heathen
organization, but surely not for the recipients who have been helped by that
organization. I'm not as religious as I should be, but I find you and your
group of Satan worshiping scum not worthy of the freedom this country
provides. Why don't you and your band of anti-God whackos move to China
where you won't have to deal with religion? We don't need freedom from
religion, but rather freedom from anti-religious and Satanic organizations
like yours. I find you worse than a whore."
"Hello, cheese-eating scumbags: you remind me of the night-riders of the
1960's, coming south in masks and hoods to commit your predations. In case
you haven't noticed, the nation has rediscovered it's Christian roots, and
it'll be a cold day in hell before we yield willingly to the precious
mercies of liberal minions of secular humanists like you again. We put up
with forty years of your crap, and it's OVER. Get used to it. P.S. COWARDS,
put your stinking real names on lawsuits."
If you don't like Christianity...."Then why don't all of you leave America,
this country was founded by Christians for Christians. And if you don't like
it then go to a Godless heathen nation that agrees with your retard tinged
philosophy. Their are way more of us Christians than you losers. Their is NO
separation of church and state and you and you heathens will lose.
Thankfully you are old and I hope you all get a painful disease like rectal
cancer and die a slow painful death, so you can meet your God, SATAN..."
"If you don't like this country and what it was founded on and for, get the
f.ck out of it and go straight to hell! (That's probably where this letter
will have to be forwarded to in order to reach you!) Get the hell out of my
country, you low life bit.h! Go join Bin Baby if you're not too rotten for
him to associate himself with! P.S. F.ck you communist whore!"
Sharon: Won't bother to continue. The letters were printed in Freethought
Today, Vol. 19 no. 2 March 2002.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:50:16 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Admin: Re: Identity
Ernesto galli della Loggia is Professor at the University of Perugia
where he teaches 'History of Parties and Political Movements'. He often
authors articles in the 'Corriere della Sera'. He recently wrote a book
'Death of the Motherland' where he bring forth the motivations that led
Italy to lose its national identity after the facts of September 8th,
1943. About a year ago he wrote an open letter to the President of the
Italian Republic discussing the reasons for his position. He felt moved
to write after a speech that Mr. Ciampi gave in relationship to the
events of Cefalonia. Mr. Ciampi replied to Ernesto Galli della Loggia
with an open letter on the same newspaper (Corriere della Sera) the
following day.
Prof. Galli della Loggia explains that the civil war was just the first
act of a fifty years long series of events that demonstrate his thesis.
For example the silence that Italian historians maintained for so many
years about Cefalonia, Porzus, the drama of the eastern border (the
murders of at least hundreds of Italians perpetrated by the partisans of
Tito), via Rasella. Then the fact that for years half of the population
feared to be deported and killed by the other half, that no political
choice had the general consensus, that police and army were seen as a
danger for democracy, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:20:48 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Home visits
) I was just wondering if anyone has had experience with
) class home visits (where the whole class visits each
) of their classmates homes over a week or so) and what
) the purpose was behind them?
) Many thanks Kate
)
) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
)
Lisa here: Kate, I am aware of the home visits made by Waldorf teachers to
each child's home before the beginning of each school year, but I have never
before heard of visits made by a whole class.
Can you tell us more about this? Is this something that your family
experienced during your time at Waldorf?
I know I am not the only person who is interested in knowing (or in
getting the discussion onto a less philosophical plane!!)
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 671
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: Home visits
By snell gv.net
technical difficulties
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: technical difficulties
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Home visits
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: technical difficulties
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Home visits
By kateabooth yahoo.com.au
Re: technical difficulties
By dan dandugan.com
re: home visits
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Home visits
By snell gv.net
RE: Spot the difference
By dan dandugan.com
Re: racist
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Home visits
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:34:07 +0000
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Lubert Das wrote:
)
) ----- Original Message -----
) From: "Su" (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
) To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
) Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 10:40 AM
) Subject: RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
)
) Lubert:
) Su, sorry, I was unaware of Festinger's (correct spelling) work previous
) to
) "When Prophecy Fails...", on which it is based. Please ignore my
) request.
)
) http://www.freeminds.org/psych/propfail.htm
) http://www.colorado.edu/communication/meta-discourses/Theory/festinger.htm
)
) http://www.colorado.edu/communication/meta-discourses/theory.htm
)
)
)
Thanks so much!!
-Su
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:21:26 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: Home visits
On Monday, March 18, 2002, at 07:20 PM, Lisa Ercolano wrote:
)) I was just wondering if anyone has had experience with
)) class home visits (where the whole class visits each
)) of their classmates homes over a week or so) and what
)) the purpose was behind them?
)) Many thanks Kate
))
)) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
)) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
))
) Lisa here: Kate, I am aware of the home visits made by Waldorf teachers
) to
) each child's home before the beginning of each school year, but I have
) never
) before heard of visits made by a whole class.
) Can you tell us more about this? Is this something that your family
) experienced during your time at Waldorf?
) I know I am not the only person who is interested in knowing (or in
) getting the discussion onto a less philosophical plane!!)
)
) ==
Debra:
HeAt our school, only the teachers visited families. This was a dreaded
event for many families - some went out of their way to hide TV's, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:28:33 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: technical difficulties
Hi folks,
I've been having ongoing problems with my subscription to the list lately
(thanks Dan for staying on top of it), which is why I haven't been my usual
talkative self for the past week. I've missed lots of messages, so if there
was something that somebody wanted me to look at or respond to, please
re-send it to me off-list (pstaud hotmail.com).
I'm wondering if other people who use hotmail have had similar difficulties
with their subscriptions; what seems to be happening is that a number of
messages don't get to me, presumably because they've bounced back to topica
for some reason, and then topica automatically unsubscribes me for too many
bounces. I tried opening another hotmail account to see if that would solve
the problem, but after a few days the very same thing happened to that
account too.
Anyway, a couple of things I wanted to catch up on: Many thanks to Peter
Zegers for translating all of that Scaligero material last week. I'm
currently doing lots of research on Italian fascism (for an article
unrelated to anthroposophy), and I'll keep my eyes open for further
references to our new-found paragon of anthro-racism.
I think either koala or Peter Z asked me to chime in on good German-language
critical works on anthroposophy. I enthusiastically second Peter Z's
recommendation of Peter Bierl's book; it is the very best single work on the
topic, in my opinion. Anyone who reads German and would like to learn more
about anthroposophy's history should read it. I would also recommend the
work of historian Helmut Zander, whose excellent analyses of anthroposophy's
racial politics have so far appeared only as articles and chapters in
various anthologies. Again, for anyone who reads German they are well worth
tracking down (feel free to contact me for precise bibliographic
information). Sharon has mentioned some of Zander's work in English; since I
can't seem to find the journal Theosophical History, I'd like to ask Sharon
if she can tell us a little more about what he has published there. There
are also quite a few books in German that are critical reviews of
anthroposophy from a mainstream Christian perspective; probably the best of
these is Jan Badewien's book Anthroposophie: Eine kritische Darstellung
(Konstanz 1985). Last, Volkmar Woelk's work on contemporary far-right
anthroposophy is superb, but unfortunately hard to come by. His booklet
Natur und Mythos is available from the Duisburg Institut fuer Sprach- und
Sozialforschung, whose website is at
http://www.uni-duisburg.de/DISS/
Also, I should be able to get to the library today and look up GA 353; I
will post the passage where Steiner discusses the historical role of the
Jewish people.
Peter Staudenmaier
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:34:51 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: technical difficulties
on 3/19/02 9:28 AM, Peter Staudenmaier at pstaud hotmail.com wrote:
Sharon has mentioned some of Zander's work in English; since I
) can't seem to find the journal Theosophical History, I'd like to ask Sharon
) if she can tell us a little more about what he has published there.
Sharon: Hi Peter. Zander wrote a three page review for Theosophical History.
Basically, he was making a call for more research on Theosophy which exists
in Germany as Anthroposophy. He cautions that the terrain of
Anthroposophist's selective editing is difficult and unreliable. He mentions
a couple of books as reading recommendations. Points out that not much has
been written with high historiographical standards. Discusses the possible
cocaine habit of Steiner and recommends a book on the Lutheran, Rittlemeyer
who converted to Anthro and headed the first Christian Community Church.
Funny you should mention the review, I just sent Peter Z and Dan a copy
yesterday, snail mail.
While we are on the subject of books on Anthro. What do you think of Ahern's
Sun at Midnight? It's one of the few books about Anthroposophy in English.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:34:52 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Home visits
on 3/19/02 9:21 AM, Debra Snell at snell gv.net wrote:
)
) On Monday, March 18, 2002, at 07:20 PM, Lisa Ercolano wrote:
)
))) I was just wondering if anyone has had experience with
))) class home visits (where the whole class visits each
))) of their classmates homes over a week or so) and what
))) the purpose was behind them?
))) Many thanks Kate
)))
))) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
))) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
)))
)) Lisa here: Kate, I am aware of the home visits made by Waldorf teachers
)) to
)) each child's home before the beginning of each school year, but I have
)) never
)) before heard of visits made by a whole class.
)) Can you tell us more about this? Is this something that your family
)) experienced during your time at Waldorf?
)) I know I am not the only person who is interested in knowing (or in
)) getting the discussion onto a less philosophical plane!!)
))
)) ==
)
) Debra:
)
) HeAt our school, only the teachers visited families. This was a dreaded
) event for many families - some went out of their way to hide TV's, etc.
Sharon: At our school, the KG teacher and the new soon to be first grade
teacher visited our home. It was embarrassing for us because she sang songs
and it was all fake. She snooped around the house. I did not hide things,
but afterward felt that I should have. It is very much a spy mission don't
you think? A friend of mine in Chicago ruled out Waldorf for her child
because she said that the house visit was a judgement. They were coming to
make a judgement about the child.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:27:14 +0000
From: (Winters_Diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: technical difficulties
Peter S. wrote:
)I've been having ongoing problems with my subscription to the list
))lately
That's a better excuse than I've got (exhaustion and demoralization).
)I'm wondering if other people who use hotmail have had similar
))difficulties with their subscriptions;
Don't get me started, hotmail is a nightmare. I think multiple accounts
would only mean multiple problems. Try posting from the topica website.
Actually I'm trying this for the first time now, we'll see if it works.
(I tried to post this earlier, and ironically was informed I was
bounced.) Since you're subbed to the list, Peter, you probably have a
topica password; if you don't remember it, they'll send you a new one,
it only takes 5 minutes. - sorry to clog up the list with this, I should
write to Peter off list but I want to see if this works!
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:13:56 +1100 (EST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Kate=20Booth?= (kateabooth yahoo.com.au)
Subject: Re: Home visits
Dear Lisa the visits are by the whole class!!
Last year the class 1 teacher and the class spent a
whole day at each childs home.
This years new class 1/2 teacher is taking the class
on home visits spending 1/2 a day in each home...I
think they do 2 a day and the whole combined 1&2 class
goes along as well.
I was aware about your childs teacher making home
visits but never was I aware of the whole class going
as well.
Crikey 25 kids in the house for the day!!
Anyway I was just wondering if anyone out there had
experienced this as well or had any thoughts on it.
Thanks Kate
--- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
) ) I was just wondering if anyone has had experience
) with
) ) class home visits (where the whole class visits
) each
) ) of their classmates homes over a week or so) and
) what
) ) the purpose was behind them?
) ) Many thanks Kate
) )
) ) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
) ) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars
) pool.
) )
) Lisa here: Kate, I am aware of the home visits made
) by Waldorf teachers to
) each child's home before the beginning of each
) school year, but I have never
) before heard of visits made by a whole class.
) Can you tell us more about this? Is this
) something that your family
) experienced during your time at Waldorf?
) I know I am not the only person who is
) interested in knowing (or in
) getting the discussion onto a less philosophical
) plane!!)
)
)
)
http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
- Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:39:41 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: technical difficulties
May I suggest...just don't use hotmail? It's free, but you get what
you pay for. You could just use your -real- email address. In the
years this list has been running some people have occasionally been
annoyed by off-list communications, but I don't recall there ever
being a serious problem.
I guess another reason to use hotmail would be spam, since your
messages are archived on our web site, address miners will get your
address from there. But it may be all the spam that goes to your
hotmail address that overflows it and causes it to stop accepting
mail! I view spam as inevitable and just delete the stuff, several
times a day.
I've had my real address out in public for many years, and I get the
occasional hate mail, but nothing serious.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:50:49 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: home visits
In an exchange about Waldorf "home visits," Kate Booth mentions a situation
during which a WHOLE CLASS visits the home of each child:
((... the visits are by the whole class!!
Last year the class 1 teacher and the class spent a
whole day at each childs home.
This years new class 1/2 teacher is taking the class
on home visits spending 1/2 a day in each home...I
think they do 2 a day and the whole combined 1&2 class
goes along as well.))
Lisa here: Well, Kate, this is new to me! During our six years at our former
Waldorf school, I never heard of such a thing occurring. Children came "en
masse" to one another's homes during birthday parties or start-of-the-year
class picnics, but not, to my knowledge, as part of routine home visits.
I would be intrigued to know more. What school was this, Kate? Did the
teacher give you any explanation?
The logistics alone boggle the mind: imagine not only having to take
every child in the class to each home (transportation, permission,
insurance, etc.), but also having all those children descend on your home!
What possible purpose could there be in doing this? Even though I don't
hold with the purpose behind the
class-teacher-comes-to-one-child's-home-to-check-it-out visits, at least
that makes some sense. (The teacher gets to see the child's home
environment, which presumably gives her/him some info about the child; the
child meets the teacher on his or her own ground, etc.)
But the entire class? I am betting that this is the idea of one teacher
or one school, and not the anthroposophically correct thing to do.
Anthroposophically speaking, it makes sense for the teacher (child's
spiritual guide) to visit his or her future student's home base (cocoon.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:52:29 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: Home visits
On Tuesday, March 19, 2002, at 07:13 PM, Kate Booth wrote:
) Dear Lisa the visits are by the whole class!!
) Last year the class 1 teacher and the class spent a
) whole day at each childs home.
Debra:
Unbelievable! Most arents would be pulling their hair out by days end.
Do the parents come too, or just the teacher and class? Are the kidlets
supervised well?
) This years new class 1/2 teacher is taking the class
) on home visits spending 1/2 a day in each home...I
) think they do 2 a day and the whole combined 1&2 class
) goes along as well.
Debra:
Sounds like a real zoo!
) I was aware about your childs teacher making home
) visits but never was I aware of the whole class going
) as well.
) Crikey 25 kids in the house for the day!!
) Anyway I was just wondering if anyone out there had
) experienced this as well or had any thoughts on it.
Debra:
What would happen if a parent refused to "host" 25 + little darlings?
Are they not allowed to enroll in the school?
I mean I have hosted both Max and Derek's class at my home, but at my
invitation! We had the last day of school celebration here. No, I didn't
cover either one of my TVs up. Gawd, I have a small TV in my kitchen.
Always listen to news while cooking dinner.
) Thanks Kate
)
)
)
) --- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
))) I was just wondering if anyone has had experience
)) with
))) class home visits (where the whole class visits
)) each
))) of their classmates homes over a week or so) and
)) what
))) the purpose was behind them?
))) Many thanks Kate
)))
))) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
))) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars
)) pool.
)))
)) Lisa here: Kate, I am aware of the home visits made
)) by Waldorf teachers to
)) each child's home before the beginning of each
)) school year, but I have never
)) before heard of visits made by a whole class.
)) Can you tell us more about this? Is this
)) something that your family
)) experienced during your time at Waldorf?
)) I know I am not the only person who is
)) interested in knowing (or in
)) getting the discussion onto a less philosophical
)) plane!!)
))
))
))
)
) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:25:52 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Spot the difference
Su, you asked,
)I am also wondering if you or others, either Dof's or Critics would be
)interested in explaining or summarizing the concepts of
)Imagination,Inspiration, and Intuition.
)
)They come up in so much of Steiner's writing. I would be interested in
)people's understanding of these entities.
"Something must step in to replace sensation. This something is
Imagination. At this stage, images appear to the occult student in
exactly the same way as if a sensory object were making an impression
upon him. They are as vivid and true as sensory images, yet they are
not of material, but of soul-spirit origin." [Steiner, Rudolf. The
Stages of Higher Knowledge. Anthroposophic Press, 1967. Translation
authorized for Western Hemisphere by Rudolph Steiner
Nachlassverwaltung, Dornach, Switzerland. p. 6.]
"Just as Imagination may be called a spiritual seeing, so may
Inspiration be called a spiritual hearing. Of course, it must be
quite clear that by the expression 'hearing' is meant a perception
still further removed from sensory-hearing in the physical world than
"sight" in the imaginative (astral) world is removed from seeing with
the physical eyes." [p. 48]
"Here it will merely be pointed out that what is designated as
'Intuition' in occult science has nothing to do with the application
of the word "intuition" in current popular usage....In occult
science, Intuition is nothing vague and uncertain, but a lofty mode
of cognition, full of the most luminous clarity and the most
indubitable certainty." [p.47]
"From Inspiration the spiritual observer may rise to Intuition. In
the manner of expression of occult science this word denotes in many
respects the exact opposite of that for which it is used in ordinary
life. In the ordinary sense intuition is spoken of when one has in
view a notion dimly felt to be true, which still lacks clear,
conceptual definition. A preliminary step toward knowledge, rather
than knowledge itself, is seen therein...Intuition is not a mode of
cognition which with regard to clarity lags behind intellectual
knowledge, but one that far surpasses it." [pp. 55-56]
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:31:34 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: racist
Koala, you asked,
)It may be that some of these questions have been already answered in old
)posts or discussed already. Sorry...
)
)1) how many official book releases (including grouping of lectures) were
)there (available or deleted in german). Is there a listing of the different
)and chronological editions in german?
Yes, that's what the "GA" numbers refer to, the official catalog of
complete works in German.
)2) Are there german printings that were never reissued?.
)
)3) Are there private documents that were never published?
In the US there are "study texts" that are circulated privately in typescript.
)4) Are there articles published in newspapers or magazines, and if yes how
)many? If this is the case, were there grouped in books?
)
)The following question is rather odd, but who knows? (in the case of
)Nietzsche with his sister, it happened already...)
)
)5) is it possible that there are forged documents that are falsely
)attributed to Steiner in order to endorse a different point of view or
)stance and to try to disqualify some too ambiguous statements published in
)his lifetime?
Intentional omissions and mistranslations, yes. Never heard of an
outright forgery.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:03:50 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Home visits
Kate wrote:
)Dear Lisa the visits are by the whole class!!
)Last year the class 1 teacher and the class spent a
)whole day at each childs home.
)This years new class 1/2 teacher is taking the class
)on home visits spending 1/2 a day in each home...I
)think they do 2 a day and the whole combined 1&2 class
)goes along as well.
)I was aware about your childs teacher making home
)visits but never was I aware of the whole class going
)as well.
)Crikey 25 kids in the house for the day!!
)Anyway I was just wondering if anyone out there had
)experienced this as well or had any thoughts on it.
It's really hard to believe. (Not saying I don't believe it, just that it's
ridiculous.) What on earth are they doing all day (hopefully some school
work)? And what ever happened to rhythm? How totally disruptive.
With 25 kids in the class, that's 2 weeks of the school year if they spend a
half-day at each, more than a month if they spend a full day.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 672
-- Topica Digest --
re: home visits
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Spot the difference(don't miss Sue!!)
By mysplum earthlink.net
Happy Birthday Dan
By snell gv.net
Re: Spot the difference
By bdjour juno.com
Re: Spot the difference
By sarina bainbridge.net
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Spot the difference
By bdjour juno.com
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Spot the difference
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Spot the difference
By bdjour juno.com
RE: Happy Birthday Dan
By sjgreen seidata.com
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: technical difficulties
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: technical difficulties
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Quote from GA 353
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Spot the difference
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Spot the difference
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Spot the difference
By bdjour juno.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:33:47 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: re: home visits
Lisa:
) The logistics alone boggle the mind: imagine not only having to )take
)every child in the class to each home (transportation, permission,
)insurance, etc
Call me cynical, but in my experience they don't fret much about things like
permission or insurance.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:13:17 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference(don't miss Sue!!)
on 3/20/02 12:25 AM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
[Steiner, Rudolf. The
) Stages of Higher Knowledge. Anthroposophic Press, 1967. Translation
) authorized for Western Hemisphere by Rudolph Steiner
) Nachlassverwaltung, Dornach, Switzerland. p. 6.]
)
) "Just as Imagination may be called a spiritual seeing, so may
) Inspiration be called a spiritual hearing. Of course, it must be
) quite clear that by the expression 'hearing' is meant a perception
) still further removed from sensory-hearing in the physical world than
) "sight" in the imaginative (astral) world is removed from seeing with
) the physical eyes." [p. 48]
Sharon: This is really interesting, make sure you read this! Continuing on
from where Dan left off...
Steiner continued: "It can be said of the imaginative world's light and
color phenomena that the radiant surfaces and colors of sensory-objects are
as lifted from these objects and released from them to float free in space.
But this gives only an approximate idea, for "space" in the imaginative
world is in no way like it is in the physical. Whoever fancies that he has
before him imaginative color-pictures when he is seeing freely floating
colored particles in ordinary space dimension is in error. - But the forming
of such color representations is, nevertheless, thhe way to the imaginative
life. Whoever tries to put a flower before his mind's eye, and then
separates off from his picture everything that does not represent color, so
that the image of the colored surface, separate from the flower, is
suspended before his soul, can gradually through such exercises arrive at an
Imagination..Imagination, that is, the real astral experience first exists
when not only the color is wholly lifted apart from the sense impression,
but when also the three-dimensional space has fully lost itself. That this
is the case can be confirmed only by a certain feeling. This feeling is
described by saying that one no longer feels oneself "outside" but "inside"
the color-picture and has the consciousness of partaking of its coming into
being." (48-9)
Sharon: Devote yourself to color and you will unite with spiritual beings.
P 52 Steiner- "When the observer in the higher worlds once knows what
Imagination really is, he soon acquires the conviction that the pictures of
the astral world are not merely pictures, but manifestations of spiritual
beings. He comes to know that these imaginative pictures have reference to
spirit or soul being just as do sensory things or beings...He must learn to
discriminate between color formations that are opaque and those that are
quite transparent and in their inner nature clear and radiant...He will link
the opaque formations to lower beings, the clear, luminous ones to
intermediate entities; the inwardly radiant ones will be for him
manifestations of higher spiritual beings".
Sharon: Read on because it is extremely interesting...Steiner prophesied
that the Earth would become Jupiter, then Venus and then Vulcan. Man's
physical body and consciousness will evolve. Steiner also uses the words
Imagination, Intuition, and Inspiration to describe those future states of
consciousness that the initiates are training for, so that they may acquire
those attributes sooner than in the distant future on Venus and Vulcan.
Here's what he says:
"