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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2085 --------------
001 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
002 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Lack of Mechanism
003 - Peter Farrell (peter.farr - Re: Lack of Mechanism
004 - Peter Farrell (peter.farr -
005 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Lack of Mechanism
006 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: Lack of Mechanism
007 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - RE: lines as impulse
008 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism- Part I
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: PS
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Prejudice
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.1 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:42:54 -0600
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All right Peter, you asked for it....
Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine. 18(1):55-63, 1998
Experimental research has recently shown that acupuncture induces
the formation of opioid-like peptides (OLPs) in animals. In order
to provide further evidence, we tested the beta-endorphin levels
and other parameters (VIP, lymphocyte subsets, NK cells and
monocyte phagocytosis) in a group of 90 patients suffering from
various painful disorders treated with acupuncture. Zusanli (St 36)
and Hegu (LI 4) acupoints were selected. A homogeneous group of 30
subjects was used as control. Evaluation of the above parameters
was made with 3 series of blood tests before treatment, 30 minutes
and 24 hours after acupuncture treatment. In the acupuncture
group, the following results were achieved: 1) A considerable
increase in beta-endorphin levels remained high even 24 hours after
acupuncture treatment. In addition, we demonstrated an inverted
correlation between beta-endorphins and VIP; 2) 30 minutes after
acupuncture session, 80% of the treated patients showed a significant
increase of CD3 and CD4 values and an increase of CD8 24
hours after stimulation; 3) Monocyte phagocytosis was increased in
45% of the treated subjects 30 minutes from starting treatment, and
in 100% of them after 24 hours. The percentage of NK cells was also
increased in 40% of cases after 30 minutes, and in 50% after 24
hours. However, in the control group, no such significant changes
in immune parameters were found.
For more on mechanism (Human Brain Mapping. 9(1):13-25, 2000)...
Acupuncture, an ancient therapeutic technique, is emerging as an
important modality of complementary medicine in the United States.
The use and efficacy of acupuncture treatment are not yet widely
accepted in Western scientific and medical communities. Demonstration
of regionally specific, quantifiable acupuncture effects on relevant
structures of the human brain would facilitate acceptance and
integration of this therapeutic modality into the practice of modern
medicine. Research with animal models of acupuncture indicates that
many of the beneficial effects may be mediated at the subcortical level
in the brain. We used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI)
to investigate the effects of acupuncture in normal subjects and to
provide a foundation for future studies on mechanisms of
acupuncture action in therapeutic interventions. Acupuncture needle
manipulation was performed at Large Intestine 4 (LI 4, Hegu) on
the hand in 13 subjects [Stux, 1997]. Needle manipulation on either
hand produced prominent decreases of fMRI signals in the nucleus
accumbens, amygdala, hippocampus, parahippocampus, hypothalamus,
ventral tegmental area, anterior cingulate gyrus (BA 24), caudate,
putamen, temporal pole, and insula in all 11 subjects who experienced
acupuncture sensation. In marked contrast, signal increases were
observed primarily in the somatosensory cortex. The two subjects
who experienced pain instead of acupuncture sensation exhibited
signal increases instead of decreases in the anterior cingulate gyrus
(BA 24), caudate, putamen, anterior thalamus, and posterior insula.
Superficial tactile stimulation to the same area elicited signal increases
in the somatosensory cortex as expected, but no signal decreases in
the deep structures. These preliminary results suggest that acupuncture
needle manipulation modulates the activity of the limbic system
and subcortical structures. We hypothesize that modulation of subcortical
structures may be an important mechanism by which acupuncture exerts
its complex multisystem effects.
JAMA. 280(18):1580-4, 1998 Nov 11. This one will blow your mind!
Inserting needles into the corners of the fifth toenail causes breech babies
to become "cephalic". Want to postulate a mechanism? A "controlled randomized
study to boot!
Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment. 17(4):305-12, 1999 Dec.
"...We determined that acupuncture detoxification programs are a useful
component of a substance abuse treatment system. "
Pain. 83(2):235-41, 1999 Nov. -" Acupuncture with penetration of
the skin was shown to be more effective than a similar therapeutic setting
with placebo needling in the treatment of pain. "
There are a lot more, but except for the first article, I just picked a few from
journals
that didn't have names like:
American Journal of Acupuncture, Journal of Alternative & Complementary
Medicine, or
American Journal of Chinese Medicine.
I have read only the abstracts of some of these articles, but they are
consistant with the form
and methodology of other articles on clinical research that I have read in the
past. I also have to
say that with the exception of JAMA, I have never read an article in any of
these journals.
[Peter]:
(snip guilt by association with Uri Geller)
)...It is interesting that a scientist uses as evidence for the reality
)of a phenomenon a television documentary....
I just found the documentary compelling, and since you didn't seem to credit my
account of
the seminar on self destructive behavior, I mentioned it.
The case for magnets is much weaker. The most positive report I have heard of
was a piece on
National Public Radio about magnets, pain and diabetes, but I can't find any
corresponding publication. This is what I found:
Ostomy Wound Management. 44(5):24-9, 1998 May
Complementary therapies, in particular magnet therapy, may have benefits to
offer in
healing chronic wounds. This case study involves a 51 year old paraplegic woman
with
an abdominal wound that had been present for one year. Traditional approaches to
wound
care had not achieved complete healing. Prior to surgical intervention, the
patient consented
to the application of magnet therapy over her usual wound dressing. In one
month, the wound
completely healed. On the basis of this case, further investigation of magnet
therapy for
wound healing appears to be warranted.
and
Wisconsin Medical Journal. 96(3):35-7, 1997 Mar.
Magnetic therapy is ineffective for the treatment of snoring and obstructive
sleep apnea
syndrome.
Are you ready to retire your lasers yet, Peter? (If not lasers, how do you bore
the sodium?)
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.2 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Lack of Mechanism
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:05:22 -0800
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References: (200003210119.RAA10067 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003210557.VAA02779 lists1.best.com)
)Peter writes:
)
)The difficulty is that a great deal
)) is known and understood about the processes of purification and solution
)) which is just at odds with the workings of homeopathy.
Alan wries:
)Peter I first want to say I am enjoying your posts. I take back everything
)I said about you a scientist when you did the study on Goethe's influence on
)science. You've done something that no one has been able to do for twenty
)five years, get me thinking about science again.
Deby:
And this is where it gets exciting for me. I'm a great observer. I just
know observers have a place...
Keep going. It helps me form my view.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.3 ---------------
From: Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au)
Subject: Re: Lack of Mechanism
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:22:13 +1100
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Alan Fine asks a question about solutions and memory. I think the question
you are asking is very subtle or I don't understand it. I think what you
are saying is right with some very large provisos. I think you may be
putting the cart before the horse. What we know about diffusion and
solution is that over time the memory vanishes. Let's consider the ink and
water trick. Carefully put a drop of ink at the bottom of a glass of water.
The ink starts to diffuse through the water. If there are no currents and
no one shakes it up then this will take some time, maybe hours before you
might say the ink is evenly distributed. I hope you are all convinced that
this is so. If you stir it or shake it (succuss) the time scale goes
correspondingly down. What does memory mean in this case? Does the glass of
water "know" where the ink drop started? All the evidence says no. The
theory (statistical mechanics) says no.
Let's say we take the water ink mixture and we separate the two, by
evaporation and condensation. So we have the water back and a powder at the
bottom of the glass that used to be the ink. There will be various
contaminats as well. For the sake of argument let's pretend our process was
very good so that there is no ink in the condensed water. Does the water
know it used to have ink in it? This is a really serious question. Let me
try to make it clear how outlandish this notion is. The information about
the previous history of the water cannot be stored without some
conformational change to the water. What possible things do we have. Well
there is the internal structure of the water molecules. We might excite
some electronic or vibrational or rotational state of the molecule. Bit of
a problem with the last two, because every time there is a collision
between the water molecules they mix the vibrational and rotational states.
It's called shuffling when you do it with cards. The electronic states
require lots of energy. Where does it come from? These are the two issues.
Either we have to get energy from somewhere to store the information, or
alternativley thermal motion and collisions destroys any information that
is there. Any water molecule may have been hanging around as water for a
long time. It may have been in the sea and then part of a fish and then
Alan Fine ate the fish and later he sneezed that bit of water out and that
water evaporated and condensed into the glass of water with the ink drop.
What memory do you want this water to have?
This was written quickly and I hope it is clear. The ideas possibly poorly
expressed are fundamental to current understandings of processes such as
solution. Many measurable properties can be calculated using the theory. A
good example is that if you add a bit of anything that dissolves to water
you raise the boiling point. There is excellent agreement between the
predictions of statistical mechanics and measured reality.
I just read your post again and I am more happy with it. I think you have
expressed it better than my attempt to make it clear.
I'm glad you are enjoying my posts.
Peter
Peter Farrell Phone (+613) 9688 4282
Optical Technology Research Laboratory Fax (+613) 9688 4698
School of Communications and Informatics(F119)
Victoria University Email peter.farrell vu.edu.au
PO Box 14428 MCMC
Melbourne 8001 Australia
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.4 ---------------
From: Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au)
Subject:
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:51:33 +1100
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Chand writes
)Did you read that? Desai, CJ, Sun Q and Zinn, K. Current Opinion in
)Neurobiology 7:70-74, (1997) is much more fun to read - at least a little
bit on
)page 72.
)
No I didn't. I read the abstracts of your recent papers and satisfied
myself that the one I chose had a high probability that some solution was
used somewhere. I was right! I'll check out page 72. Unfortunately,
neurobiology is not a big issue where I am, so It'll be a while before I
see it.
)I don't think I have to publish a retraction because the solutions (and water
)supply) used were the same for mutant and wild-type. You spark a question
in my
)mind - I wonder what the water purifier we use to produce milliQ water
does to
)that water? It has to recirculate in there a lot - kind of like the
mixing of
)homeopathic remedies - all the while being "diluted" of various ions.
Must be
)something like D6 or D8.
)
This is a very tricky issue. I don't think you need to print a retraction
but you are right, homeopathy presents serious complications for water
purifiers.
Peter
Peter Farrell Phone (+613) 9688 4282
Optical Technology Research Laboratory Fax (+613) 9688 4698
School of Communications and Informatics(F119)
Victoria University Email peter.farrell vu.edu.au
PO Box 14428 MCMC
Melbourne 8001 Australia
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.5 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Lack of Mechanism
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 06:42:55 -0500
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charset="windows-1252"
[Peter Farrell]
) I am happy with the lack of mechanism provided the claimed
) phenomenon is
) not obviously inconsistent with other well known science. I
) have discussed
) examples already. The short answer is no (or at least very
) little) negative
) weight if you have good statistics. The good statistics are a
) message which
) cries out "look for the mechanism".
)
[Bob Tolz]
That makes sense.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.6 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: Lack of Mechanism
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:07:40 -0600
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[Peter]:
)Carefully put a drop of ink at the bottom of a glass of water.
)The ink starts to diffuse through the water. If there are no currents and
)no one shakes it up then this will take some time, maybe hours before you
)might say the ink is evenly distributed.
You had better be patient. I once tried to demonstrate diffusion using a
similar technique but couldn't detect any changes the next day. Maybe the
density of the color I used was too great.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.7 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: lines as impulse
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:45:24 GMT
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Luke responded to Lynnette Curry, on the fact that children have always
drawn outlines. (And Lynnette responded again, better than I could, but I
can't resist putting in my two cents. )
Speaking again as someone who watched small children actively discouraged
from making lines and outlines in Waldorf preschool, Luke, I would just like
to repeat the point I made before: no one has to "teach" kids to draw lines
or outlines. If you give them paper and markers (or even watercolor paints),
this is what they often do. If they are making lines and you want them to do
something else, you have to force the issue (and end up acting like a jerk).
[Luke]
) culturally engrained symbolism makes it possible for people to
) )recognize an object by the shape it makes in space.
Do you not want your children to be comfortable understanding and expressing
themselves in the symolism of their culture? You want to train them to go
*against* the symbolism of their culture? Is it actually possible to
communicate outside of the symbolism of one's culture?
[Luke]
)The shape an object has in space has nothing to do with visual )perception.
) An outline shape of an VW beetle may be recognizable to )anyone who is
)part of a culture that recognizes that shape as such )but if you show that
)shape to a child they might just as well call )it a beaver or a slice of
)watermellon.
Luke, they are also very eager to understand that in their culture, it is
called a VW Beetle. Almost from birth a child is learning to recognize and
identify objects the way his or her culture does.
[Lynnette]
)This propensity for making lines is also common to all children.
[Luke]
) Especially when you give them line making tools. Take a child to )the
)beach and give them a bucket and a shovel and ask them what a )castle looks
)like and I am sure that they won't use the bucket to )draw some lines in
)the sand. Give the same child a stick and ask )them again and you will
)likely get a line drawing in the sand. Give )them a blanket and you will
)get something else.
Making sand castles is great, and so is drawing with sticks in the sand or
building forts in the backyard with old blankets. Why are some of these
forms of expression okay, while one particular form (the making of lines)
seems to cause all kinds of philosophical problems. These are all natural
forms of human expression.
[Luke]
)If you want to handicap your child by over encouraging their )expression to
)*only that which can be expressed by line* that's )fine, but
I can see you wringing your hands while your child draws at the kitchen
table, "But honey, I don't want you to be limited to that which can be
expressed by line!" Leave them alone! Just admire their artwork and hang it
on the refrigerator!
[Luke]
)why would anyone want children to )sublimate what they are seeing )for the
)sake of shoe-hornng it into )convenient cultural symbols )(for the benefit
)of the parents mostly).
Now how do you figure it is for the benefit of the parents? I am thrilled
with my son's line drawings, I was thrilled with his scribbles or big blobs
of color, I will be thrilled when he draws three-dimensionally or starts to
be interested in foreground and background, shade and shadow. Unless someone
has artistic aspirations for their child, I suspect this is how most parents
feel about their kids' artwork.
[Luke]
) One could also say that encouraging children to distill what they )see
)in the world to shorthand symbols (line drawings) might make )them more
)likely to distill the rest of their experiences in life to )convenient
)shorthand symbols, like say racial characteristics and )ethnic stereotypes.
Drawing outlines will encourage racial steretotyping? Now, I am always being
accused of making huge unsupported leaps, I would really like to hear how
you could possibly support such a claim, Luke.
[Luke about Utne Reader drawing]
)The school removed the cultural symbol superimposition to return it )back
)the the child's *actual* drawing. Who is respecting the )child's work
)here?
I doubt the motivation to change it back before printing the brochure was
about respecting that child's drawing; it was about PR for the school, Luke.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.8 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism- Part I
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:26:13 GMT
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[Alan]
)
)Debra Harvey asked me for my views on how the inspiration for Nazism and
)Anthroposophy overlap.
[Harve]
Alan, thank you for your effort. i took some days off from the computer and
note that you have several posts related to race and Nazism. I look forward
to reading them.
I have decided that I'm not going to comment on any of this until I have
taken the time to do extensive reading and thinking--although I may pose
some questions as I go along with the process.
Thanks again,
Debra Harvey
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: PS
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:59:22 -0800
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References: (200003192055.MAA15781 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003192055.MAA15781 lists1.best.com)
3/19/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)- First of all, HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Dan. have a good one!
Thanks, you missed a great party.
)- Secondly, Alan, if you read this I just wanted to mention that you are
)totally off base in regard to humans and a group soul. You really
)should read more Steiner before you quote him. Humans are not part
)of a group soul.
"Besides their character, families, nations and races have also their
destiny. ... Besides the separate individuals, a very real family and
national group soul and racial spirit is at work in the life of a
family, a people, or a race. Indeed, in a certain sense the separate
individuals are merely the executive organs of these family group
souls, racial spirits, and so on....In the truest sense, everyone
receives his allotted task from his family, national or racial group
soul." [Steiner, 1904, KHW pp. 240-241]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.10 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Prejudice
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:44:06 -0800
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References: (200003190603.WAA10838 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003190603.WAA10838 lists1.best.com)
At 10:03 PM -0800 3/18/00, David wrote:
)For information: I note with interest that for posting a story/"funny
)joke" I was told I was abusing the list and unsubsribed yet I keep
)reading about a variety of postings (music, film stars etc.) without a
)word from the moderator but you are not prejudiced Dan are you? :-)
)Regards
)David Mollet
Sure I'm prejudiced. My patience with you is limited. You've
threatened to sue PLANS. You've posted your self-justifying list of
"Waldorf without Anthroposophy" accomplishments over and over. And
your signature below is too long.
-Dan Dugan
)*********************************
)Dr. David Mollet
)In case you are interested, I would just like to pass this site on to
)you. It is the Hunger Site supported by the U.N. All you do is click a
)button and somewhere in the world some hungry person gets a meal at no
)cost to you. The food is paid for by corporate sponsors who have their
)logos on the site. You're only allowed one click per day.
)http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html
)*********************************
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2085 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2086 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Anthropop doctors (was: Peter Farrell on Goethe and scienc
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Response to Luke Schelly.
003 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: Prejudice
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: PS
005 - r (soma mwt.net) - Paulina-a few lasts comments.
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Robert Jan Kelder
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
009 - paulina leonard (pkleonar - Re: PS
010 - paulina leonard (pkleonar - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Anthropop doctors (was: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science
teaching)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:14:12 -0800
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (200003191807.KAA07226 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003191807.KAA07226 lists1.best.com)
At 2:37 PM -0500 3/18/00, David Cann wrote:
)I am quite sure that association with anthroposophical (sp?) doctors is
)voluntary on the part of the school. We had an agreement with one for years
)(he visited once every week or two), but don't anymore. No one seems the
)worse for it.
What could it be other than voluntary?
)Dan, do you have any reference for saying each school is "supposed to have
)one?"
Tradition. "The School Doctor".
"The decision for any handedness change may only be made by the
school doctor in consultation with parents and carried out under his
supervision." [McAllen, 1992, pp. 23-24]
"When it comes to using medications, however, it is important to get
the school's physician or the family doctor involved. Parents tend to
react negatively, and rightly so, when the teacher starts
recommending medications. But if you advise them to consult the
school's physician about the possibility of medical treatment, since
in your experience this often has a positive effect on a child's
behavior in school, they will often take your advice." [Glöckler,
1993, p. 21]
)Dan stated:
) )Anthroposophical physicians are associated with
) )Waldorf schools, each is supposed to have one but there aren't enough
) )to go around.
)and:
) )I believe Waldorf schools are the source of most of
) )Anthropop physicians' business.
)
)
)Is this belief based on any data? I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't even
)know how one would justify a claim like this.
)
)David
)
)__________________________________________
)NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
)Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
)http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Luke Schelly.
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:55:35 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200003191847.KAA22818 lists1.best.com)
(200003192041.MAA09589 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003192041.MAA09589 lists1.best.com)
3/19/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)It is certainly possible that Steiner might have given some kind of
)insightful indications on this matter that I have yet to run across,
)but, I remain dubious. Given that he fashioned his educational
)indications specifically on the fact that he felt the healthiest,
)most effective educational process should reflect the normal
)development of the human being, recapitulatingour evolutionary
)development as a species I find it very hard to swallow that he
)would have said children should not draw lines arising out of free
)expression.
I don't have Steiner on it, but some later commentators obviously
source from him:
"For Steiner, teaching children to draw with lines is only really
justified in subjects such as Geometry, or when studying perspective.
To draw a horizon, for example, by means of a line is an abstraction
and untrue in terms of nature itself. In reality the horizon results
from the meeting of two adjacent but separate colours, the blue of
the sky and the green of the land. Therefore the teacher should
'gradually come to appreciate that the forms of nature really arise
out of the colours and that therefore drawing is a process of
abstraction.'
"What is usually taught in drawing should be replaced by painting
with colours, or shading areas of dark and light. In this way the
child's feeling for colour, light and shade is developed without
being spoiled by the abstract conception of line drawing. " [Blunt,
1995, p. 147]
"When a child draws an object of nature, a tree or a rock for
example, he is experiencing nature itself. If he uses solid, unbroken
lines to represent the object, he is fixing his perception on
something which really isn't there. In reality, we perceive visual
images as gradations of shade and color, never as the distinct
outlines we commonly use to draw with. The techniques given in these
two lessons allow a child to have a different and truer relationship
to his physical world." [Mercury Press Catalog, 1995, p. 5]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.3 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Prejudice
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:17:20 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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)
)At 10:03 PM -0800 3/18/00, David wrote:
))For information: I note with interest that for posting a story/"funny
))joke" I was told I was abusing the list and unsubsribed yet I keep
))reading about a variety of postings (music, film stars etc.) without a
))word from the moderator but you are not prejudiced Dan are you? :-)
))Regards
[Harve]
David, why don't you lighten up? The music discussion was a respite from a
very heated discussion about life forces and race. I am sure that we will
move forward on that discussion, but with more collegiality than we would
have but for the music discussion, which was spurred by Bob's Barry Manilow
comment.
[Dan replying to David]
)
)Sure I'm prejudiced. My patience with you is limited. You've
)threatened to sue PLANS. You've posted your self-justifying list of
)"Waldorf without Anthroposophy" accomplishments over and over. And
)your signature below is too long.
)
[Harve]
Dan, I've got problems with each of your statements above. First, you are
trying to remedy perceived wrongs through litigation. Why can't David?
Second, I think that certain aspects of Waldorf education has a lot to
offer. David has a proposed way of presenting it without Anthroposophy. I
applaud and welcome those efforts. Third, I have passed along the Hunger
Site and try to visit it on a daily basis.
Was your response to David a joke?
Happy Birthday Dan. You share it with my son.
Debra Harvey
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: PS
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:41:58 -0800
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References: (200003201211.EAA12547 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003201211.EAA12547 lists1.best.com)
3/20/00, Diana Winters wrote:
)[raison]
))In Anthroposophy, there IS no "reality" except that which the
))"I" )creates it, so it is the inner thought of the "I" which is
))worth )working with in this state of immaterial self-consciousness
))which is )all.
)
)Is this really what Steiner said? I'm as surprised by this as what
)Terry Boardman said about the material world being an illusion.
"Only because the things of the sensible world are nothing but
condensed spirit beings is the man who lifts himself by means of his
thoughts to these spirit beings able by thinking to understand the
things. Sense objects originate in the spirit world. They are only
another form of the spirit beings, and when a man forms thoughts
about things, his inner nature is merely directed away from the
sensible form and out towards the spiritual archetypes of these
things." [Steiner, Theosophy, chapter 5]
(snip)
)I was mentioning some of this to a friend who knows nothing about
)the Steiner/Waldorf world, and explained that anthroposophists take
)Steiner as a "seer" and some apparently believe literally all his
)descriptions of the spirit world. He said, "So they believe Steiner
)was a seer. Do they believe he was the *only* seer?" Good question.
)It does seem that way.
Steiner said that anyone could learn to do it by following his
instructions. It is rare that an Anthropop will claim to have
achieved supersensible vision.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.5 ---------------
From: r (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Paulina-a few lasts comments.
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:32:27 -0600
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Personally, I have no interest in sacrificing children's
self-expression in order to institute Anthro. beliefs. My facetious
reference to "the cosmic horror of sucked out astral bodies" brought
about by not obeying Steiner's instructions and controls makes this
clear.
I make no distinction concerning drawing lines as opposed to painting
them. From an early age through KG (and onwards), children's joy and
delight is having a good stiff brush and lots of paint. As the child
goes through the phases of marks...radials..mandalas...and then
representations of themselves and their world, they soon start filling
in solids, anyhow. (Even Michelangelo mapped out compositions in lines
first.)
It is the freedom to enjoy this kinesthetic pleasure that incurs the
benefit of enhancing motor skills so beneficial to hand and eye
control. Obviously this facilitates reading-(following lines with
eyes) and making alphabet and cursive symbols.
Children in public schools would benefit from having an authentic art
program. (Not the apology made on wall-to-wall carpeting in fear of the
janitor's union). I deplore the mechanical rows of pumpkins, hearts
etc., cut out by most public school teachers... I am very conscious of
the general fear exhibited by most adults concerning the artistic
expression of children. There appears to be an almost superstitious
consensus that "inefficiencies" of their pupils will be a reflection of
their own artistic shortcomings--instead of relaxing and encouraging
children to enjoy the satisfaction of learning through their own
experience.
The local WS informed us that there is no ART in Waldorf schools. This
is what we would have liked to have known before we enrolled a child
there. Form drawing is fine, but not if free expression is not also
offered. If no free expression is encouraged as a balance, to me, Form
drawing in first grade would be as inhibiting to a child wanting to draw
freely, as it would be to a child who has been encouraged to do so at
home, and suddenly finds this experience totally repressed-unbeknown to
them, for religious reasons. You are quite right: disciples often
become more fanatical than there masters; as I quoted re the line is a
lie, what might have been intended for adults only has been imposed on
early childhood because of Steiner's obsession with reincarnation.
Perhaps he did the best for his time, we need to do better because we
know better due to advances in pedagogy.
Sincerely, Lynette.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Robert Jan Kelder
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:52:02 -0800
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References: (LOBBIFGEEJBILODKGLCHAEFJCCAA.winst wxs.nl)
In-Reply-To: (LOBBIFGEEJBILODKGLCHAEFJCCAA.winst wxs.nl)
Dear Mr. Kelder, I'm sharing this with my friends and colleagues on
the waldorf-critics list. I don't engage in private debates with
Anthroposophists or Waldorf supporters.
Today I received a lovely birthday present, a rant from Robert Jan
Kelder, "Founding Director, Willehalm Institute for Anthroposophy,
Amsterdam,
Netherlands." This communication was sent not only to me but to a
long list of Kelder's "friends and colleagues," which I reproduce
here because you may recognize some of them:
, "Goetheanum Wochenschrift" (wochenschrift goetheanum.ch)
, "Nordwall Sune" (thebee hem.passagen.se)
, "Terry Boardman" (terence.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Hi, guys.
, "Stephen E. Usher" (seusher earthlink.net)
, "AAG" (sekretariat goetheanum.ch)
, "Monnique Miller" (RSteinerNY aol.com)
, "AS Great Britain" (rsh cix.compulink.co.uk)
, "Robert Karp" (robertftf isunet.net)
, "Nelson Willby" (nwillby mistral.co.uk)
, "Novalis" (novalis spectraweb.ch)
, "Motief" (Motief antrop-ver.nl)
, "Michael P. Dobson" (mdobson anthropress.org)
, "Margalit Freeler. Nl" (margalit freeler.nl)
, "Lorenzo Ravagli" (Laurin bigfoot.de)
, "Ken Rogers" (KRogers745 aol.com)
, "Ir. A.C. van der Linden" (kees aacee.nl)
, "June O Lang" (juneo4 juno.com)
, "Patrick Steensma" (info onestop.nl)
, "ASNewZealand" (hmulder xtra.co.nz)
, "Heertsch" (heertsch mens.ch)
Andreas H., leader of the Goetheanum Branch of the AS, who hosted
Rabbi Yonassan Gershom there for a forum on reincarnation and the
Holocaust.
, "Sylvia Witzenmann" (haraldchristoph webtv.net)
, "Hank Passafero" (hank crownrarecoins.com)
, "William Bento (Gradalis College)" (Gradalis2 aol.com)
Astrosopher, heard him lecture at the Waldorf School of the
Peninsula, I read his column in The Peridot.
, "Richard G. Geldard" (geldard netstep.net)
, "Frank T. Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
, "Rudolf Saacke" (fenix team.com.pl)
, "Wain Farrants" (FarrantsW aol.com)
, "Rudolf Steiner Elibrary" (elibrarian elib.com)
, "David Andrew Schwartz" (dschwartz ascribes.com)
, "David Gilmartin" (david_gilmartin msn.com)
, "Claus Sproll" (csproll aol.com)
, "Carol Brousseau" (carol.brousseau goetheanum.ch)
, "Butterfly Enterprises" (Butterfly-Enterprises att.net)
, "Blanche" (blanche anthroposophy.org)
, "Bernard Wolf" (BAWOLF6899 aol.com)
, "Martin van der Ven" (azorg casema.net)
, "Guy AGOSTON" (aston1 total.net)
, "AS Phillippines" (asp info.com.ph)
This must be the cell that claims to be converting the Philippines to
The Threefold Social Order (one "L" Robert, it's named for King
Philip of Spain).
, "David Tresemer" (asc dimensional.com)
, "Herman Boswijk" (antrobib xs4all.nl)
, Götz Rehn (AlnaturA t-online.de)
, "ASCanada" (alexandragunther anthroposophical.society.ca)
, "Akta" (akta akta.nl)
, "Aaron Gilmartin" (AGilmartin compuserve.com)
, "Stuart B. Weeks" (73514.624 compuserve.com)
, "David Heaf" (101622.2773 compuserve.com)
UK contact for Ifgene, Anthropop front organization about genetic engineering.
, "Paul H. Sherbow" ( shintofn ix.netcom.com)
It would appear from his addressing whole AS national branches that
Kelder considers what he has to say important to the whole Anthropop
movement. I wonder if they feel the same way.
3/20/00, Robert Jan Kelder wrote:
)Dear Mr Dugan,
)I have just checked your PLANS site for the first time and without going
)into great details at this time I would like to give you my first impression
)as someone with a degree in music and philosophy from McGill University in
)Montreal,
I'm a college dropout myself. Lots of experience with music and
philosophy, though.
)who has closely studied anthroposophy in LA, CA., Dornach,
)Switzerland and Holland (in German, English and Dutch) about four times the
)amount of years you have.
Would that be forty years? Then I'll certainly consider you to be an expert.
)And also as someone who is known and perhaps even
)feared by some anthroposophists as a critic, but then a critic from within
)and not from without as many of the "rational" crackpots spouting their
)nonsence on your site.
(gumpvoice) Crackpots is as crackpots does (/gumpvoice) Is this the
pot calling the kettle black?
)Well, I am dismayed at the site's predominantly biased, uncritical and
)incomplete portrayal of Rudolf Steiner and his anthroposophy as a genuine
)spiritual science based on a critical, i.e. not naive epistemology.
Science it ain't. If one can be sophisticated and naive at the same
time, Anthroposophy is both.
)Your
)list of articles from Holland e.g. include none of the many articles and
)booklets by anthroposophists reputing the politically correct attacks and
)insinuations made here by incompetent journalists and would-be philosophers
)against the integrity of R. Steiner,
Of course not. You have your own presses cranking your your
propaganda. I take it you're not too happy with your European critics.
)including a booklet called "Geen sprake
)van..." that I wrote with three other anthro authors on the "Van Barda
)interim report on A. and the question of racism", which itself includes
)politically correct segments, as some anthro's themselves are beginning to
)soften up and become clouded and fearful in the face of massive attacks from
)a.o. so-called anti-racist organisations heavily sponsored by the Dutch
)governments, who, to put it bluntly, in order to justify their existence are
)constantly on the lookout for their prey... I have talked to some of these
)experts denouncing Steiner, who have never even read a word by him.
)Of course A. has been misused by some so-called anthro's, but that is no
)reason to throw away the baby with the bathwater as you, respectively your
)site does so unabashedly.
The baby has failed to thrive, due to lack of an essential nutrient,
critical thinking.
)Is this what you call free speech and Pacific
)Justice; it's more like lynch justice of the days of the Wild West. The
)translators of the Dutch articles, including that smear pamphlet by T.
)Jeurissen without any scientific basis
This isn't science, it's politics. A Waldorf parent, deeply disturbed
by racism in her child's lesson books, was courageous enough to stand
up to the system. (See the article on the PLANS web site).
)(it already denounces R. Steiner as a
)racist on the first page) ought to be ashamed of their bias in presenting
)only their clouded side of the story. That new article e.g. on A. and
)ecofacism has so many errors, that it would be no use to enter into a
)discussion with the author except to say that he should spend a couple of
)more years doing serious research before venturing out into the open with
)his marxist tainted heap of bias and materialistic half truths.
One wouldn't expect the far right Anthropops to enjoy sniping from
the left. Is that "materialistic" the code word that used to mean
Jewish?
)A. is an impartial discipline, read e.g. the book,if you can, "Die
)Voraussetzungslosigkeit der Anthroposophie - Eine Einführung in die
)Geisteswissenschaft Rudolf Steiners" by the foremost anthro philosopher of
)the 20th century, Herbert Witzenmann, my former teacher who died in 1988 and
)who unfortunately is still practically unknown in the West, partly because
)he has received too little support from the antro's themselves, which is now
)beginning to boomerang in the sense that A. has done too little to update
)and scientifically justify itself as a spiritual humanism of the first
)order.
Sounds like a faction. I'm starting to see why other Anthropops might
see you as a pain in the ass.
)There are many internal factors, which I cannot go into now, playing in the
)heart of the anthro movement that are indeed rotten and completely against
)what Rudolf Steiner advocated.
Ah, yes, factions arguing about who's truer to the guru's vision.
)One symptom of this is that the Waldorf
)Schools were supposed to be free, that is free from the meddling hands of
)state or government support, an aspect that has been forgotten or trespassed
)on by many so-called anthro's. In Holland for example, the Waldorf Schools
)have all but been sucked up by the State which has led to a beginning
)rebellion by teachers and parents to begin state-free schools. There I see a
)positive aspect of your criticism, which you could perhaps accentuate, if
)you have not done so already. Another symptom is the movement for social
)reform which I call social organics based on the harmonious insight into the
)workings of the three production factors nature (land), labor and capital,
)which make up the social organism; there is nothing of a social biology in
)this, not even most of the anthro's, however, have grasped R. Steiner's
)ideas given in his lectures on World Economy, let alone implemented them. If
)I said that he also expected that this new principle of civilization would
)succeed that grand old dame Democracy, who has after all been around for
)more than 2000 years, you would have more ammunition to decry this as an
)anti-democratic statement which it is not, it is a post-democratic appeal.
)Read Herbert Witzenmann's essays on that (see catalogue enclosed) which I
)have translated for the English speaking world
Were you talking to me? I think you've gone off on a habitual rant.
What's "post-democratic"? Could you summarize for us?
)As I said, this is only a first, not fully substantiated, impression after
)spending some hours on your site. I include the catalogue of my Willehalm
)Research Institute with a list of some English publications. I hope to
)return to your site soon to write an article on it for the monthly Dutch
)newsletter "Kringnieuws" (Circle News)published by the Cicle for A. for wich
)I am the main editor. This four year old Circle was formed in Holland as a
)reaction against the failings of the Durch Anthro Society who published the
)said Van Baarda interim report and who is bringing out the final report on
)April 1.
Factions again. Are you sure you want to wave this dirty laundry in public?
)In closing, I can't say I wish you much luck with your present PLANS,
)perhaps I could wish you in general to come to your senses and to stop
)attacking the honor and good name of one of the greatest, if not the
)greatest friend of humanity and the earth of the previous century.
Pretentious pronouncements don't make greatness, except to the naive.
)In the
)end you are only attacking your own higher self, the image of the man and of
)a just free society that you and I want to become and create.
I don't know that my "free society" and yours are at all the same. Do
you use Steiner's definition of "freedom" meaning "spiritual
activity"?
)Robert Jan Kelder,
)Founding Director, Willehalm Institute for Anthroposophy, Amsterdam,
)Netherlands.
)
)Copy to friends and colleagues
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:53:52 -0800
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References: (200003200259.SAA15734 lists1.best.com)
(200003201823.KAA11459 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003201823.KAA11459 lists1.best.com)
3/20/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)When confronted with the special ed child I'm beyond
)grateful to be able to pick up McAllen's books for help.
Whoa, Paulina, you're in big trouble here. McAllen substitutes white
magic rituals for any meaningful treatment of learning disabilities.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:10:27 -0800
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References: (200003171447.GAA01689 lists1.best.com)
(200003181659.IAA17574 lists1.best.com)
(200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com)
3/19/00, Sune Nordwall wrote:
)Knowing that, as you probably do too, one sees how polemically
)insinuant and basically untrue your comment is, in the sense of
)implying that Waldorf teachers for some reason would use pure 'water'
)in treating 'minor accidents' ascribing some sort of magical power to
)it.
"Magical Power" is exactly what homeopathy is about, cloaked in pseudoscience.
Anthroposophical medicine takes homeopathy to another level, in a way
a more honest one. AM ignores the pseudoscientific "proving"
technique of homeopathy, and prefers to select remedies based on
medieval correspondences based on the appearances of the plants.
)As you probably also know, in any way seriously mistreating
)children or other patients makes any licenced MD (including
)anthroposophical MD:s who don't stop being MD:s when starting to
)practice also anthroposophical medicine) very soon would make him or
)her lose their licence.
There's hope there. Wasn't Anthropop author and Dr. Incao run out of
New York State for unscientific practices? I think he's set up shop
in the new Anthropop power center in Colorado.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.9 ---------------
From: paulina leonard (pkleonard sprintmail.com)
Subject: Re: PS
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:11:58 -0500
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Dan Dugan wrote:
) 3/19/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)
) )- Secondly, Alan, if you read this I just wanted to mention that you are
) )totally off base in regard to humans and a group soul. You really
) )should read more Steiner before you quote him. Humans are not part
) )of a group soul.
)
) "Besides their character, families, nations and races have also their
) destiny. ... Besides the separate individuals, a very real family and
) national group soul and racial spirit is at work in the life of a
) family, a people, or a race. Indeed, in a certain sense the separate
) individuals are merely the executive organs of these family group
) souls, racial spirits, and so on....In the truest sense, everyone
) receives his allotted task from his family, national or racial group
) soul." [Steiner, 1904, KHW pp. 240-241]
Indeed, in a certain sense you, Dan, as a separate individual
are also merely only one of a number of executive organs or
members of your own immediate blood or adopted family,
your ancestral group, your racial and cultural origins, etc.
You, are, nevertheless, a single entity in terms of you ego, you "I".
When you die you do not go back to a group soul as do species
who are part of a group soul.
That was my point in what I said to Alan.
Many Jews (not Hassidic, because they do believe in reincarnation)
do not believe in an individual survival after death. That is why the
appropriate, respectful term to use to a Jew at the loss of a loved
on is "My his (or her) memory be a blessing".
Paulina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.10 ---------------
From: paulina leonard (pkleonard sprintmail.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:26:55 -0500
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References: (200003200259.SAA15734 lists1.best.com)
(200003201823.KAA11459 lists1.best.com) (200003211741.JAA06931 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) 3/20/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)
) )When confronted with the special ed child I'm beyond
) )grateful to be able to pick up McAllen's books for help.
)
) Whoa, Paulina, you're in big trouble here.
Quite the opposite!
I've said before here that I've used McAllen's simple testing
procedures on all my students to determine their body
geography when they enroll in my class.
Never once in all these years (decades) have I found one
single special ed student who did not have cross body
geography. This is in stark contrast to the students not
labeld or placed in special ed classes - BD, LD, etc., who
show in these simple testing proceudres consistent evidence
of the necessary body dominance that facilitates normal
progress in learning in a traditional setting.
) McAllen substitutes white
) magic rituals for any meaningful treatment of learning disabilities.
Get real here, Dan.
You have used the term white magic ritual, so, please, define
the term. What do you mean by such an outlandish statement?
Additionally, please direct me to one single remedial exercise
in "The Extra Lesson" that you consider to be in the category.
McAllen's work in this book is about developmental body
topology (my term) not magic ritual.
Arrguhh!
The deficit in public education is missing most exactly the
pedagogical insights available in Waldorf!
I am in agreement that Waldorf training should begin
to include the child development courses found in state
certified programs, but, Dan, no system is prefect.
No one here can seriously say that our nation's public
education is succeeding. Mainstream education is just
as bad as Waldorf about going around ignoring vital
research data.
Little, _very_ little of what we learned about the brain
makes its way down into the public classroom.
Mainstream education just tends to takes up snippets,
attaches jargon to the snippets, such as "Whole Brain Learning",
holds a workshop or two and moves on. There is no real
content nor application whatsoever. Madeline Hunter in the
late 70's made her reputation from the whole brain workshops
and her book. Where did her method, limited though it was go?
Did book publishers take notice and alter the format of their
books? Did state universities adjust their training programs
to include the relevant research?
No.
And, what, please tell me is more relevant to education than how
the brain and body work together?
What Waldorf has to offer in regard to this could keep untold
children from being labeled special ed and experiencing a lifetime
of failure and low self-esteem.
I've seen the consequences of this kind of labeling, Dan.
Your post really tears me up because I've seen what McAllen's
body of work can do to help the special ed child.
To call the body exercises McAllen developed white magic
is tototally misunderstand the issue and importance of
topology in the developing child.
Very sad.
Gotta run...
Paulina
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2086 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2087 --------------
001 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - On the art of changing subject ... (Was: Re: Peter Farrell ...
002 - momof2gals mindspring.com - to Paulina
003 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
004 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - more on lines as natural expression
005 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Re: Anthropop doctors (was: Peter Farrell on Goethe and scienc
006 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: more on lines as natural expression
007 - Peter Farrell (peter.farr - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
008 - Peter Farrell (peter.farr - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
009 - David (waldorfedu access1 - Off topic - a few of my "best"
010 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.1 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: On the art of changing subject ... (Was: Re: Peter Farrell ...)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:31:13 +0100
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References: (200003171447.GAA01689 lists1.best.com)
(200003181659.IAA17574 lists1.best.com)
(200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com) (200003211745.JAA09671 lists1.best.com)
Dan wrote:
Dan:
) Homeopathic remedies are often administered by Waldorf teachers for
) minor accidents; ...
I answered showing how that very improbably is not true (as Dan does
not specify the remedies used for treating the minor accidents, it is
difficult to be completely sure):
Me:
If you by 'homeopathic' mean all types of remedies based on natural
substances it would be true. But the remedies you probably refer to I
imagine would be Arnica elixir (a well known remedy used to treat
bruises and swellings), and Calendula elixir (an in herbal medicine
probably equally well known remedy used in the treatment of smaller
wounds) both used in diluted form or as salve and not used because of
any special 'homeopathic' effect, but mainly for their very
physiologically based effects.
(and)
) )Knowing that, as you probably do too, one sees how polemically
) )insinuant and basically untrue your comment is, in the sense of
) )implying that Waldorf teachers for some reason would use pure 'water'
) )in treating 'minor accidents' ascribing some sort of magical power to
) )it.
Dan's answers avoiding the point; that he was wrong in describing the
elixirs/salves in question as 'homeopathic' which he put forth as a
sort of implied 'proof' of how absurd the treatment of medical
problems of children at Waldorf schools should be, by changing the
subject:
Dan:
) "Magical Power" is exactly what homeopathy is about, cloaked in pseudoscience.
[snip]
Me:
) )As you probably also know, in any way seriously mistreating
) )children or other patients makes any licenced MD (including
) )anthroposophical MD:s who don't stop being MD:s when starting to
) )practice also anthroposophical medicine) very soon would make him or
) )her lose their licence.
Dan:
) There's hope there. Wasn't Anthropop author and Dr. Incao run out of
) New York State for unscientific practices? I think he's set up shop
) in the new Anthropop power center in Colorado.
See:
http://goodlight.net/vacexpert/pastprob.htm at
http://goodlight.net/vacexpert/
Dr Incao:
************************************************
I was investigated by the New York State Health Department in 1988 to
determine if there was any negligence in my treatment of patients. The
office was never shut down but 30 patient charts were confiscated and
examined for evidence of negligence. None was found and no charges
were ever brought. The whole case was quietly dropped without any
official statement of dismissal or exoneration. It was a "fishing
expedition" that came up with nothing. A friendly source within the
Health Department confided to me that my position on vaccinations was
the real impetus for the investigation.
************************************************
Me:
Personally I would not call what seems to have been a possible
harassment by authorities that lead to nothing very interesting as any
sort of 'proof' that anthroposophical MD:s in any general sense or in
any specific case having mistreated their patients in a way that would
be considered the basis for criticism or withdrawing their medical
license, which was what you implied by stating that you 'knew' that
anthroposophical MD:s consciously had sent kids with meningitis that
needed treatment to daycare, implying maybe you did not 'know' what
you said you knew ...?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.2 ---------------
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: to Paulina
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:49:40 -0500
Paulina, it's Lisa Ercolano here. I am writing from work, so only my
screen name comes up.
I have been following with great interest the dialogue between
yourself and others (Diana, Dan and Lynette, to name three) about the
use of Waldorf techniques in education. You have offered some insights
into how you, an art teacher in a non-Steiner school, have benefitted
(and thus how your students have benefitted) from your working out of
Waldorf monographs.
My basic question is this: are you pro-Waldorf education? Do you
support Waldorf education -- not as you would like it to be, but as it
truly is administered and carried out in schools today?
Please understand that I do not mean this question to be
confrontational; you and I have had a great many friendly discussions
on a variety of subjects offlist, and I have deeply valued the
friendship and support -- as well as insights -- that you have offered
as a human being.
But as I read your public posts, I find myself confused as to where
you stand on Waldorf as a whole, and why. Can you help me with t
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.3 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly JackRouse.com)
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: 21 Mar 2000 16:54:46 -0500
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Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au) posted
)I would also like to refer to Daniel Sabsay's contribution to this
)particular discussion. I suspect that he and I agree on the technical
)issues in this discussion. I can't help but observe that his contribution
)was less than helpful. If you want to change someone's mind you don't call
)them deluded. My guess is that most of us are deluded about something. A
)response like Luke Schelly's was predictable and also less than helpful.
)What's the point?
An equal and opposite waste of bandwidth. Mostly (bad) humor. I always like to chirp back in kind to the chirpers.
FWIW, I don't subscribe to much/any Homeopathy and alt. medicines either but that doesn't mean I am ready to go along with tossing the whole kit and kaboodle. I prefer to remain open to the possibilty that it will get more attention by the science community (in both the mechanisms searching and efficacy evaluation that you posted before)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.4 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: more on lines as natural expression
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:01:03 -0500
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I don't think there is any question that children naturally express
themselves using lines.
You can spout all the theories in the world, but all you really have to
do is give any child in any kindergarten classroom a pencil, pen or crayon,
and you'll be gifted with a drawing made of lines.
Only in the Waldorf kindergarten is it considered ``healthy'' and ``soul
enriching'' for this natural impulse to be stunted. I have observed first
hand many times children who, frustrated by their inability to make lines
and form an image with the slippery wet-on-wet technique, end up using some
sharp object to scratch the image into the wet and soggy paper!
I've seen children use their fingernails and one little boy I know --
who wanted very much to draw a truck -- cleverly used the edge of a button
on his cardigan.
* Can some anthroposopher or anthro student PLEASE explain WHY Steiner
advises against children of a young age using lines? I have seen the quote
about a line being a ``lie'' and an artifact from a ``former life,'' but I
have no idea what it really means.
What does Steiner theorize will happen if young children draw with
lines?
I am certain that the answer has little to do with actual art and
everything to do with that ``hardening'' that Steiner was so afraid would
happen to children who simply go about doing the things that children
naturally do -- like draw using lines!
Yes, I am being sarcastic! But I really do wonder what danger Steiner
saw in 4 year olds scrawling with crayons.
The issue of what color crayons (and paints) children in the Waldorf
kindergarten are permitted is another issue entirely.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.5 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Anthropop doctors (was: Peter Farrell on Goethe and scienceteaching)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:46:16 -0500
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David Cann wrote:
))I am quite sure that association with anthroposophical (sp?) doctors is
))voluntary on the part of the school. We had an agreement with one for
years
))(he visited once every week or two), but don't anymore. No one seems the
))worse for it.
to which Dan repled:
)What could it be other than voluntary?
)
David again:
Well, if somebody in a position of authority was really telling schools to
have anthroposophical physicians, it could be a requirement. As it stands
in the real world, though, you're quite right.
I was just pointing out that there's nothing really telling schools to have
anthroposophic doctors.
David
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.6 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: more on lines as natural expression
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:44:55 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Lisa wrote:]
)I don't think there is any question that children naturally express
)themselves using lines. I have observed first
)hand many times children who, frustrated by their inability to make lines
)and form an image with the slippery wet-on-wet technique, end )up using
)some sharp object to scratch the image into the wet and )soggy paper!
) I've seen children use their fingernails and one little boy I )know --
)who wanted very much to draw a truck -- cleverly used the )edge of a button
)on his cardigan.
Yes, this was an endless frustration to the Waldorf kindergarten teachers I
knew (how to prevent the scratching on the watercolor painting!) I heard
many theories spun about why children do this; at the time it didn't
actually even occur to me that they wanted to make lines, but I guess it
should have been obvious. (Usually it was something the parents were doing
wrong, some way they were mishandling the child's temperament.) Another
thing they do to express resentment is *pour* big globs of paint on the
paper and make puddles. After a few go-rounds with the watercolors they want
to do something else, and if you are forbidden to draw, you find other ways
to manipulate your materials! You can at least make a nice big mess that
will aggravate the teacher when she has to clean it up.
If I have told this story before, forgive me, but it was very eye-opening
for me at the time and really stayed with me. Once on painting day, as soon
as he got his hands on paints and brush a boy sitting at my table
enthusiastically drew big zig-zag lines across his paper. He was very
pleased and enjoying himself greatly and saying "Look, look" to all around
him. I admired it profusely mostly in the hopes that if *I* admired it, he
would not feel the need to also show the teacher, because I knew what she
would say. The zig zags reminded him of the back of a Stegosaurus and he
proceeded to complete the Stegosaurus. I knew this was trouble, and sure
enough when he finished he showed it to the teacher very enthusiastically,
and got basically a tongue lashing, "We don't draw pictures! G__, you know
we don't draw pictures! The color wants to come and play. We just let the
color come, next time I want you to just let the color come!" She really
burst his bubble (and mine, about how "nurturing" Waldorf is, and how we
were supposed to be "preserving childhood for children").
Diana
) * Can some anthroposopher or anthro student PLEASE explain WHY Steiner
)advises against children of a young age using lines? I have seen the quote
)about a line being a ``lie'' and an artifact from a ``former life,'' but I
)have no idea what it really means.
) What does Steiner theorize will happen if young children draw with
)lines?
) I am certain that the answer has little to do with actual art and
)everything to do with that ``hardening'' that Steiner was so afraid would
)happen to children who simply go about doing the things that children
)naturally do -- like draw using lines!
) Yes, I am being sarcastic! But I really do wonder what danger Steiner
)saw in 4 year olds scrawling with crayons.
) The issue of what color crayons (and paints) children in the Waldorf
)kindergarten are permitted is another issue entirely.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.7 ---------------
From: Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au)
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:03:54 +1100
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Now you're talking Chand. Thanks for the references. You've given me some
reading to do so I may not comment for a while on this particular issue.
I'm glad they are all recent and in journals not on my normal reading list,
so I can be forgiven (I hope) for not being aware of them.
There are some comments I can make straight away. With the exception of the
Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine, the journals listed are high
quality peer reviewed journals with no obvious vested interest in
maintaining acupuncture. Some might argue that the Journal of Traditional
Chinese Medicine may have such a vested interest. This increases the
probability that there is merit in the papers. Secondly, I note that the
papers refer to specific processes occuring in recognisable structures in
the human body. They do not talk about the flow of Qi as being responsible
for any effect. In this sense the papers not only provide support for the
use of acupuncture, they destroy the traditional theoretical basis for
acupuncture. This is precisely the sort of evidence that might change my
mind about acupuncture provided the data stand up to scrutiny. Let's see
what happens. I might yet have to apologise to my acupuncturist mates.
If Chand finds a heart is not a pump paper am I allowed to cook my hat?
Perhaps a soup might be nice.
Peter
Peter Farrell Phone (+613) 9688 4282
Optical Technology Research Laboratory Fax (+613) 9688 4698
School of Communications and Informatics(F119)
Victoria University Email peter.farrell vu.edu.au
PO Box 14428 MCMC
Melbourne 8001 Australia
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.8 ---------------
From: Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au)
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:10:04 +1100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Chand talks about the published evidence for magnetic therapy which is
consistent with no effect.
)
)Are you ready to retire your lasers yet, Peter? (If not lasers, how do
you bore
) the sodium?)
I've moved on to rubidium, potassium and lithium and the rare earths and I
find I don't need lasers to bore these elements. My undergraduate students
don't like my jokes either.
Peter
Peter Farrell Phone (+613) 9688 4282
Optical Technology Research Laboratory Fax (+613) 9688 4698
School of Communications and Informatics(F119)
Victoria University Email peter.farrell vu.edu.au
PO Box 14428 MCMC
Melbourne 8001 Australia
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.9 ---------------
From: David (waldorfedu access1.net)
Subject: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:03:24 -0800
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Thanks for the jokes - I guess I like people to be consistent so I'll
wait to see if you have abused the list and are unsubscribed; if not I
guess it is one rule for some, and one rule for others. Now that IMHO is
an abuse of power :-)
David Mollet
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:31:36 -0700
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Well, I havent been to a hundred Grateful Dead shows, but I have made up
over a hundred psychiatry and medical jokes. Since I tend to be dead
serious on the list, I thought I'd share a few of my creations, some of
which have achieved a measure of popularity. Feel free to spread them
around, (once the groaning dies down) I love it when one of my own jokes
gets back to me.
1) (Inspired by the recent movie, as well as the story). What did the
doctor have to do when the Headless Horseman passed away?
- He had to notify the necks of kin!
2) Why did Frankenstein get depressed after his brain transplant?
- He started feeling rejected!
3) What happens when you get depressed and paranoid?
- You start feeling pursued by nobody very special
4) Quickie guide to mental health: What do you do if -
you have anxiety?
- don't worry about it
you have depression?
- don't let it get you down
you have insomnia?
- don't lose any sleep over it
you get paranoid?
- don't let it get to you
you are obsessive compulsive?
- don't give it another thought!
k enough, next patient's here, and I better not give up my day job.
Alan Fine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.10 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:54:45 -0500
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David,
I don't think so (about abusing the list, I mean). Let it go.
By the way, my daughter (all my kids just HAVE to read my email over my
shoulder) loved Alan's "headless horseman" joke below.
-- (the other) David.
-----Original Message-----
From: David (waldorfedu access1.net)
To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 8:06 PM
Subject: Off topic - a few of my "best"
)Thanks for the jokes - I guess I like people to be consistent so I'll
)wait to see if you have abused the list and are unsubscribed; if not I
)guess it is one rule for some, and one rule for others. Now that IMHO is
)an abuse of power :-)
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2087 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2088 --------------
001 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
002 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Reincarnation and materialism
003 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
004 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: more on lines as natural expression
005 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
006 - paulina leonard (pkleonar - Re: to Paulina
007 - "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
008 - njpmail mindspring.com (Y - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n2082
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
010 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Brief Comments on Recent Events
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.1 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 03:01:40 GMT
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Everyone,
Please excuse if I sent this already. I was working on it earlier today but
couldn't get on-line, and now I'm not sure it was sent or not.
Paulina,
Thank you for your very detailed response. The only part I'm really still
confused about is in what way the line is part of the memory of life before
birth.
[Paulina and Lynnette are discussing a Steiner quote:]
) "Art in the Light of Mystery Wisdom" - Steiner, R. p 68.
)"...We must take great care to allow colour to govern our painting )and not
)line. In painting the line is a lie; the line is always part )of the memory
)of life before birth...."
I appreciate that in practical terms Steiner may not have been giving
pedagogical advice, but later Waldorf adherents may have interpreted it thus
(I can attest that some do).
[various snips from Paulina's response which I am trying to understand as a
whole:]
)there is no such _reality_ as _line_but it was rather a convenient
) )concept/definition in both art and math.)
and
)Yes, he was speaking about the spiritual behind the material
)world, the consequences of our life before birth, our experiences
)as we pass from sleeping to waking consciousness, but I think it
)important not to leave the man, Steiner, out of his time period.
)Historically the world of the arts, all of the arts, had been shatter
)by the discovery of the atom.
)The material world as people knew it was no
)longer a world of _solid_ reality.
)If one studies the work and writings of the artists of that
)time period I don't see how Steiner's statement in regard to
)line can be found to be so upsetting.
I don't find it upsetting, I'm just trying to understand in what way the
line has to do with experiences before birth. Is this just sort of a
metaphor, because you seem to be saying (and Kandinsky, other writers you
discuss said) the line has no material reality? (I'm just picturing
spiritual soon-to-be-neonates floating around in the spirit world, with
*lines* all around them . . . and I can't figure out what in the world these
lines are for, or about, or why the young child should be discouraged from
remembering them . . . aren't they supposed to be encouraged to stay in
touch with the spirit world from which they have recently come?
)Perhaps the Waldorf intent is to compensate for harsh or
)too immediate an incarnating process? A _reaction_ to
)the absurd push for earlier and earlier cognition that has been
)going on now for about two decades?
Well, if it began two decades ago, that is long after Steiner was gone, and
if Waldorf is supposed to be pure Steiner, then this can't be the reason
they do this, can it? Or are they just extrapolating what Steiner might have
said about earlier academics. Like they are extrapolating what Steiner might
have said about electronic media.
Thanks, sincerely. Perhaps I'm just being thick, but this is still foggy to
me.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.2 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 03:27:16 GMT
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[Terry]
)What I'm saying is that racism, like other poisonous 'isms' like )sexism,
)ageism, chauvinism stems from a fixation on bodies, on )'physical'
)attributes - from the idea that we are essentially or )entirely physical
)beings.
)reincarnation is a key feature of the new spiritual movement
)of the New Age and affirms the idea that the human individual
)is essentially a spiritual being who wears material "clothes" (DNA, )race,
)sex,)
I would just note that reincarnation does suggest this, but other people who
do *not* accept reincarnation also believe that humans are spiritual beings
wearing material "clothes."
)Those who "believe" in the cosmic heat death prescribed by the )Second Law
)of Thermodynamics must come to terms with the notion that )all of human
)love and culture is totally meaningless and pointless.
What??! There aren't any scientific theories that would convince me human
love and culture are meaningless and pointless. This isn't about being
"heroic" (snipped that part, actually) but it seems to me this is just
saying anybody who doesn't buy every intricacy of anthroposophy is a
complete cynic with no beliefs or values at all, and with our crass lack of
human feeling why should we even want to live?!
[Terry]
)Conventional Christians believe they are created as souls by God for )this
)one life and after death, will be with God in a vague place )called
)"Heaven"
Well, it's not so vague to some people. I'm not Christian but you're quite
oversimplifying Christian beliefs; it's quite a stretch to brand any
Christians other than your own sect "materialists." You have to make it
sound like just *one* physical life and death is a piffling, trivial thing
and anybody who would settle for it is somehow lacking spiritual depth. My
one physical life and death -- if it turns out that's what I've got --
aren't trivial to me.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.3 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 03:33:54 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[David Cann wrote:]
)(all my kids just HAVE to read my email over my
)shoulder
Yikes, another Waldorf purity alert. Aren't your children preadolescent?
Reading your email?!
______________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.4 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: more on lines as natural expression
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:04:08 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Lisa]:
)I have observed first
)hand many times children who, frustrated by their inability to make lines
)and form an image with the slippery wet-on-wet technique, end up using some
)sharp object to scratch the image into the wet and soggy paper!
I have seen this too. These paintings are not the teacher's favorites.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.5 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:13:09 -0600
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Peter,
I am glad that you find some merit in the references I posted. I too am
more comfortable with the idea that acupuncture needles affect us through some
normal mechanism like stimulating nerves. I have heard, though, that
acupuncture points do not correspond to any anatomical system such as nerves or
veins. For this reason I would be careful about the conclusion:
)Secondly, I note that the
)papers refer to specific processes occuring in recognisable structures in
)the human body. They do not talk about the flow of Qi as being responsible
)for any effect. In this sense the papers not only provide support for the
)use of acupuncture, they destroy the traditional theoretical basis for
)acupuncture.
Furthermore, for all I know about Qi, it may refer to something(s) more
traditional in the Western sense.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.6 ---------------
From: paulina leonard (pkleonard sprintmail.com)
Subject: Re: to Paulina
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:46:41 -0500
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References: (200003212050.MAA17692 lists1.best.com)
momof2gals mindspring.com wrote:
) Paulina, it's Lisa Ercolano here. I am writing from work, so only my
) screen name comes up.
)
) I have been following with great interest the dialogue between
) yourself and others (Diana, Dan and Lynette, to name three) about the
) use of Waldorf techniques in education. You have offered some insights
) into how you, an art teacher in a non-Steiner school, have benefitted
) (and thus how your students have benefitted) from your working out of
) Waldorf monographs.
)
) My basic question is this: are you pro-Waldorf education?
Hello, Lisa.
I'm certainly not anti-Waldorf.
Surely you aren't either. Right? I mean you still have your
little girl in a WE school don't you? If memory serves I believe
that your problems with your fourth grader arose from the
teacher, not the system, not the school, and that you are
still very happy and pleased with your kindergartner's experience,
correct? At least that is what I understand from your posts.
) Do you
) support Waldorf education -- not as you would like it to be, but as it
) truly is administered and carried out in schools today?
Too brand a question.
How would I know how WE is "truly" administered and carried out
in _all_ the schools today?
I only know how the schools I am or have been affiliated with have
been administered. None of them are Waldorf, I kave no working
personal knowledge of an WE school's adimistration,ergo, I do no
to qualify to pass judgment on _all_ schools, WE or otherwise.
I know that don't like what Debbie reported about Max's experiences
with the silks.
I said that.
I know I don't like past life karma coming into play in the discussion
of a child's educational problems or pedagogy.
I've said that.
There are certain reports that disturb me, but, do I then jump to being
anti-Waldorf? Absolutely not. The public school system in this country
is abysmal. Am I anti- public education? No!
Do I advocate throwing down the Republic because things don't work
as well as they should in this democracy? Of coure not.
) Please understand that I do not mean this question to be
) confrontational; you and I have had a great many friendly discussions
) on a variety of subjects offlist, and I have deeply valued the
) friendship and support -- as well as insights -- that you have offered
) as a human being.
I don't take your question as being confrontational, but, only as being
indicative of how very differently we think.
There are no absolutes here for me.
I perceive from the reports by both parents and teachers that
there are Waldorf schools that function very well and do, indeed,
deliver on the Waldorf promise, and, on the other hand, I can
see that there are also instances where a school and or an individual
teacher does not deliver on that promise.
If I understand your situation I believe you are not unhappy with the
school you have been affiliated with, but only with an individual teacher
and in regard to that teacher only unhappy in the past year or so.
Correct?
)But as I read your public posts, I find myself confused as to where
)you stand on Waldorf as a whole, and why. Can you help me with t
I'm sorry you are confused, Lisa. I do find it unfortunate that you of
all people would be confused about my position. I've never changed
this position. I've always been stright with you and supportive in your
difficulites. I was then and continue to be a serious student of Steiner's
Anthroposophical world view.
I don't agree with all the conclusions that others, pro and con, draw
from what Steiner said. I don't like quotes taken out of context
about Steiner, the Bible, Shakespeare, ee.cummings or anything else.
i don't know what else to say to you.
Nothing exists in a vacuum.
To be honest, Lisa, I sometimes feel you don't really read very closely.
For instance, I posted about the "line as lie" issue yesterday and just
now
your post comes in asking about this as if it had never been talked about.
Best,
Paulina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.7 ---------------
From: "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik cybertrails.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:40:11 -0700
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My name is Jim Staffnik and I am interested in Waldorf remedial techniques.
Paulina you have piqued my interest more so because you seem to know what
you are talking about in this area. Would you please answer some questions
for me. I have attached them to your post to Dan Dugan regarding his
comments about white magic. If my questions appear basic, uninformed and
naive I apologize. You are dealing with ignorance in the area of Waldorf
special education. Thanks, Jim
----------
) From: paulina leonard (pkleonard sprintmail.com)
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
) Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 12:26 PM
)
)
)
) Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) ) 3/20/00, paulina leonard wrote:
) )
) ) )When confronted with the special ed child I'm beyond
) ) )grateful to be able to pick up McAllen's books for help.
) )
) ) Whoa, Paulina, you're in big trouble here.
)
) Quite the opposite!
)
) I've said before here that I've used McAllen's simple testing
) procedures on all my students to determine their body
) geography when they enroll in my class.
What testing procedures are used to determine body geography? Are they
outlined in a book? If so where? Is body geography the only thing
assessed?
At what ages do children enroll in your class? Is the testing procedure
the same for all children of all ages? What class do you teach? Is it a
special education class?
)
) Never once in all these years (decades) have I found one
) single special ed student who did not have cross body
) geography.
How long have you been testing children? How many children have you tested
that are special ed students? How do you know they are special ed
students? Are you told when they enter your class that they are special ed
students or do you find out they have special needs after you test them and
find they have cross body geography? Do children with language disabilities
have the same type of cross body geography as students with learning
disabilities or emotional disabilities? Do children with reading
disabilities have the same cross body geography as children with math
disabilities or color blindness, or hearing impairments, or vision
impairments, or physical disabilities like a club foot, or traumatic brain
injury, or attention deficit disorder, or asthma, or congenital heart
defects, or other health impairments that lead to impaired classroom
performance? Do children with different types of emotional problems have
different types of cross body geography? For example, does a child with
depression manifest cross body geography the same way as a child with
schizophrenia, conduct disorder, separation anxiety disorder, school
phobia, post traumatic stress disorder, bipolar disorder or other condition
that would affect the child's classroom performance? Do slow learners have
cross body geography? Do children with mental retardation have cross body
geography?
What is cross body geography? How is the presence of cross body geography
determined? Are there degrees of cross body geography? In other words is
there a continuum of cross body geography that is recognizable, or is it
simply present or not present?
This is in stark contrast to the students not
) labeld or placed in special ed classes - BD, LD, etc., who
) show in these simple testing proceudres consistent evidence
) of the necessary body dominance that facilitates normal
) progress in learning in a traditional setting.
How many children have you tested that are not special ed students? How do
you know that they are not special ed students? Do all student in special
education classes have cross body geography and all students not in special
education classes have the necessary body dominance? Do some students not
in special education have cross body geography? Have they been tested for
some reason before you see them? Do you use the presence or absence of
cross body geography to decide if a child is a special education student?
What is evidence of body dominance? When is a lack of body dominance
considered a problem? What is done if lack of body dominance is found and
it is considered a problem? How does body dominance facilitate normal
progress in learning in a traditional setting. Are you referring to a
traditional setting in a regular public school or a traditonal Waldorf
setting? What is normal progress? Does that mean reading at the 1st grade
level in 1st grade or does it mean beginning to read in grade 4? Is there
a relationship between development of body dominance and learning to read,
learning to write, or learning to do math? If there is what is the
relationship?
)
)
)
) ) McAllen substitutes white
) ) magic rituals for any meaningful treatment of learning disabilities.
)
)
)
) Get real here, Dan.
)
) You have used the term white magic ritual, so, please, define
) the term. What do you mean by such an outlandish statement?
) Additionally, please direct me to one single remedial exercise
) in "The Extra Lesson" that you consider to be in the category.
) McAllen's work in this book is about developmental body
) topology (my term) not magic ritual.
)
) Arrguhh!
)
) The deficit in public education is missing most exactly the
) pedagogical insights available in Waldorf!
What is the deficit in public education? What pedagogical insights from
Waldorf are needed in public education?
)
) I am in agreement that Waldorf training should begin
) to include the child development courses found in state
) certified programs, but, Dan, no system is prefect.
) No one here can seriously say that our nation's public
) education is succeeding. Mainstream education is just
) as bad as Waldorf about going around ignoring vital
) research data.
)
) Little, _very_ little of what we learned about the brain
) makes its way down into the public classroom.
) Mainstream education just tends to takes up snippets,
) attaches jargon to the snippets, such as "Whole Brain Learning",
) holds a workshop or two and moves on. There is no real
) content nor application whatsoever. Madeline Hunter in the
) late 70's made her reputation from the whole brain workshops
) and her book. Where did her method, limited though it was go?
) Did book publishers take notice and alter the format of their
) books? Did state universities adjust their training programs
) to include the relevant research?
)
) No.
)
) And, what, please tell me is more relevant to education than how
) the brain and body work together?
)
) What Waldorf has to offer in regard to this could keep untold
) children from being labeled special ed and experiencing a lifetime
) of failure and low self-esteem.
What does Waldorf have to offer? How would Waldorf keep children from
being labeled special ed? Do children in public school special education
classes experience a lifetime of failure and low self-esteem?
)
) I've seen the consequences of this kind of labeling, Dan.
What consequences of labeling have you seen? How does Waldorf avoid the
consequences of labeling? Is it possible to do the same things in a
regular pubilc school that are done in Waldorf schools?
) Your post really tears me up because I've seen what McAllen's
) body of work can do to help the special ed child.
What have you seen to help the special ed child? How does McAllen's body
of work help the special ed child? Does it target specific academic
deficits or emotional problems? Are the techniques adapted or modified
according to the type of problem the child has? Or is McAllen's body of
word intended to be applied to all types of special ed problems? What type
of special ed child does it help or does it help every kind of special ed
child? What types of problems would McAllen's body of work not address?
In other words, what are the limits of application?
)
) To call the body exercises McAllen developed white magic
) is tototally misunderstand the issue and importance of
) topology in the developing child.
What is the issue? What do you mean by topology? What exactly is the
importance of topology in the developing child? How does topology relate
to mental retardation, learning to read, learning to do math, learning to
write, and learning to deal with emotional problems.
) Very sad.
I agree. Thank you in advance for your insights. Jim
)
) Gotta run...
) Paulina
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.8 ---------------
From: njpmail mindspring.com (Yael Resnick)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n2082
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:27:39 -0500
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Bob Tolz wrote:
)) On the other hand, if what Paulina meant in her "I suspect that you
)) don't believe in guardian angels" comment was that "you *disbelieve* in
)) guardian angels," then I can see Paulina's point to some extent. A premise
)) of unqualified *dis*-belief is likely to be as much a barricade to
)) open-minded thought as is a premise of unqualified belief.
Paulina wrote:
)Of course that is what I meant and what I intended
)to be heard.
)
)I wrote what I did on the fly (and am doing the same
)today!) My thinking in regard to what I said to Alan
)was because he is Jewish and out of respect for his
)worldview being different than mine.
)
)Perhaps it best if I try to make my point by quoting
)a living rabbi and scholar, Morris B. Margolies.
)
)In his book "A Gathering of Angels he writes:
)"Angels are metaphors for the most basic human drives
)and emotions: love, hate, envy, lust, charity, malice, greed,
)hope."
)
)For Morris Margolies "The Archangel Michael
)the "archetype of all Jewish angels" the guardian and
)lifesaver through all of the Rabbinic literature" is but a
)metaphor. He says of Michael that this metaphor is
)"the heavenly model of what man should be, what man
)can be."
)
) Further on Margolies says, in regard to angels as metaphor
)that "this interpretation of angles reconciles their existence with
)the teachings of a monotheistic faith.
)
)"The most essential Jewish credo is: "Hear, O, Israel, the Lord
)our God, the Lord is One." The One shares His sovereignty
)with no other. The One needs help from no other. So does
)such a One need angels? Are angels not, in fact, blasphemy
)to the conception of one God?"
)
)In the anthroposophical world view Michael is not a
)metaphor, but a real and powerful supersensible being
)with personality and archangelic powers and duties who
)serves the Christ faithfully.
)
)Alan is coming from a different worldview and belief
)system.
Dear Paulina,
I will admit I am not familiar with Morris Margolies, but I can almost
guarantee that he's not coming from a religious Jewish perspective -- more
likely Reform or Reconstructionist... just guessing. But Jewish tradition
(in the traditional sense, which was the only sense until the last 120
years or so) certainly holds that there are indeed angels (malachim) and
archangels, who are below G-d, and they are not metaphorical. I don't know
too much about this subject so I won't go into it more. But I can say that
it's not blasphemy to believe that there are angels, since their existence
does not in any way imply that G-d needs help, so to speak, or shares His
sovreignty.
Honestly, I cannot even understand on a simple level, given the little I do
know about the Jewish view on angels, how they could be "metaphors for the
most basic human drives and emotions..." What stories in Jewish tradition
involve angels displaying "love, hate, envy, lust, charity, malice, greed,
hope"?? (Actually, I can think of one. When G-d told the angels He was
going to give the Jews the Torah, the angels protested, arguing that the
Torah belonged in Heaven. G-d showed them what was in the Torah -- don't
murder, don't steal -- and asked what use angels have for such material
guidance? That's not the whole story, but it's the part that shows,
perhaps, envy or possessiveness on the part of the malachim.)
Malachim are most often seen as having a protective function. There are
malachim that escort people home from synagogue on Friday night, for
example, and a malach that watches over people when they are sleeping. Not
exactly the same as the Christian concept of a guardian angel, but not so
far from it, either. But admittedly, there's very little emphasis on angels
in Judaism, and many (most) Jews are not even aware of what their own
tradition has to say about this subject (I include myself among the
ignorant masses).
You have to be careful when trying to presuppose what any particular Jewish
person believes... especially when your source for information is
less-than-traditional. There's a huge range of "worldviews and belief
systems" among Jews.
Yael
P.S. Happy belated birthday, Dan! May you celebrate many more happy
occasions with your family and friends.
*****
Yael Resnick, Publisher/Editor, Natural Jewish Parenting
The only magazine dedicated to a Jewish perspective
on childraising and family health!
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:39:31 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I've just checked ListQuest, who is archiving this mailing list. I
tried a search and it seems to be working well. Check it out:
http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=waldorfcritics
I did a trial search, and noted that a message from Detlef had lines
that required scrolling three feet to the right to read. This is a
reminder to everybody, if your mailer isn't wrapping lines, please
set it up to do so! I suggest using a fairly narrow line like 55 or
60 characters. This makes for easy reading and doesn't break lines
when layers of quoting are added.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.10 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Brief Comments on Recent Events
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:34:36 -0800
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From: "Alan Fine"
Subject: Off topic - a few of my "best"
I really liked the psychiatry jokes, thay gave me a good laugh. But unlike
David Cann's children, I thought the Headless Horseman one was a real
stinker. :)
From: "Diana Winters"
Subject: Re: more on lines as natural expression
)when he finished he showed it to the teacher very enthusiastically,
)and got basically a tongue lashing, "We don't draw pictures! G__, you
)know we don't draw pictures! The color wants to come and play. We
)just let the color come, next time I want you to just let the color come!"
Hmpf. Lousy teacher.
My son's waldorf teacher had to go out of her to way to insist that the
children draw and paint "however you want," because several of the kids were
hell-bent on re-creating Pokemon - or whatever - exactly right, and felt
they needed to critique others' work. There were several times I noted the
children sort of chanting this, probably because they'd heard it eighteen
times that day: "You can paint however you want... you can paint however you
want..."
From: David Mollett
Subject: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Hi, David. Welcome back! Please don't provoke Dan any more; you already know
he can't stand you and he'll use any excuse he can to unsub you from the
list. So what's the use?
Personally, I'd rather see you play nice and calmly shoot down the premise
that Waldorf without Anthroposophy can't exist. I still say you do a damn
good job of proving that it can, regardless of whatever personality clashes
you've had with the PLANS folks. Your Pompeii lesson plan is still copied on
my hard drive.
---------------------------
Sarina McDonald
pandora aa.net
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2088 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2089 --------------
001 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
002 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
003 - "John and Heather at Prof - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard
004 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
005 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Robert Jan Kelder
006 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Diana's (was Lisa's) views on race
007 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: Brief Comments on Recent Events
008 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
009 - Sean Slovan (sean.slovan - Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
010 - "debra harvey" (debharve - RE: Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.1 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:57:49 -0700
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References: (200003220101.RAA22314 lists1.best.com)
David, Monday was a pre-agreed off topic day.
Alan
----- Original Message -----
From: David (waldorfedu access1.net)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 6:03 PM
Subject: Off topic - a few of my "best"
) Thanks for the jokes - I guess I like people to be consistent so I'll
) wait to see if you have abused the list and are unsubscribed; if not I
) guess it is one rule for some, and one rule for others. Now that IMHO is
) an abuse of power :-)
) David Mollet
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.2 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:31:32 -0700
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References: (200003171447.GAA01689 lists1.best.com)(200003181659.IAA17574 lists1.best.com)(200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com) (200003211745.JAA09671 lists1.best.com)
) There's hope there. Wasn't Anthropop author and Dr. Incao run out of
) New York State for unscientific practices? I think he's set up shop
) in the new Anthropop power center in Colorado.
)
) -Dan Dugan
I haven't heard about this. Do you know this for a fact?
Alan Fine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.3 ---------------
From: "John and Heather at Profoundia" (profoundia olywa.net)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:43:50 -0800
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In response to Paulina's posts about the efficacy of Extra Lesson methodology- I will have to jump in from my watchpost to heartily encourage this discussion.
.
Whether we call it establishing a "healthy body geography" like Mc Allen does or Sensory integration, it is clear a childs physical habits, and relationship with the physical environment are indicators of emotional and intellectual capacities. There is so much jargon to define different physiological states of being. It's time to quit assuming that people who don't know the scientifically correct verbiage can't help children. Whether or not it comes from spiritual science or not has no bearing on whether or not a child can be helped.
I discovered Extra Lesson when I was 23 years old. Aside from my work with children, I have used the exercises to successfully change physical habits that I had suffered with for years.
I have watched children become "more free" as well. How do I define "more free?" The children gain confidence in movement. They don't bump into things, for example. I worked with one girl who was reading at 3rd grade level in 1st grade but could not even climb up the ladder to use the slide.At recess she would stand, looking around sadly because she did not know how to move freely. You should have seen the stages of progress- she started shaking her arms and stomping her feet just to test to see if this was possible. She ran with other girls and formed a group of friends who would explore together. She learned to bend over and pick up an object off the ground.She was on the slide by the end of the year.
If this is white magic, light up the pyre, I'm ready to burn! ;)
P.S. Lines ?. Ingun Schneider, who furthers McAllen's work in this country- suggests that children have free rein to scribble all they want and to make drawings with line indicative of their developmental level. Else Goettgens, a really old guard Dutch teacher
suggested to me that the children be set free with craft materials for 10 min each day to create anything they want. It's called "free rendering". I had the children volunteer to tell stories about their projects. Really interesting what often came out. It was also a chance to encourage the media characters and images to make their much needed appearance so the children could feel accepted in their interests. A few of the other W teachers at my school were of the opinion that I was wasting time- so this is not a common practice, but some people use it
In short I will reiterate that getting stuck on a method or dogma, be it anti anthroposophy or pro Steiner gets us nowhere in deciding what's best for the child. You folks who are parents know how the little ones act when something ungenuine is presented to them.
No reason to worry that I will be corrupting the youth this kind of pedagogy. I have no teaching license and my Waldorf certification isn't worth much either now that I have been fired from 2 different schools. I would encourage those of you who are actively teaching to spread the scourge of Extra Lesson far and wide, cloaked under a large helping of legitimate sounding neuroscientific terminology.
All the best,
Heather
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.4 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:11:48 +0100
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References: (200003171447.GAA01689 lists1.best.com)(200003181659.IAA17574 lists1.best.com)(200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com) (200003211745.JAA09671 lists1.best.com) (200003220733.XAA13325 lists1.best.com)
Alan wrote, quoting Dan:
Dan:
) ) There's hope there. Wasn't Anthropop author and Dr. Incao run out of
) ) New York State for unscientific practices? I think he's set up shop
) ) in the new Anthropop power center in Colorado.
Alan:
) I haven't heard about this. Do you know this for a fact?
Me:
I yesterday sent a posting that by mistake came to be misdated,
probably putting it out of sight in mail programs that sort by date.
It was an answer to the posting by Dan quoted above by Alan. The end
answered the question by Alan. For those who already saw it, I
apologize for resending it, somewhat corrected.
Dan:
) Homeopathic remedies are often administered by Waldorf teachers for
) minor accidents; ...
I answered showing how that very probably is not true (as Dan does
not specify the remedies used for treating the minor accidents, it is
difficult to be completely sure):
Me:
If you by 'homeopathic' mean all types of remedies based on natural
substances it would be true. But the remedies you probably refer to I
imagine would be Arnica elixir (a well known remedy used to treat
bruises and swellings), and Calendula elixir (an in herbal medicine
probably equally well known remedy used in the treatment of smaller
wounds) both used in diluted form or as salve and not used because of
any special 'homeopathic' effect, but mainly for their very
physiologically based effects.
(and)
) )Knowing that, as you probably do too, one sees how polemically
) )insinuant and basically untrue your comment is, in the sense of
) )implying that Waldorf teachers for some reason would use pure 'water'
) )in treating 'minor accidents' ascribing some sort of magical power to
) )it.
Dan's answers avoiding the point; that he was wrong in describing the
elixirs/salves in question as 'homeopathic' which he put forth as a
sort of implied 'proof' of how absurd the treatment of medical
problems of children at Waldorf schools should be, by changing the
subject:
Dan:
) "Magical Power" is exactly what homeopathy is about, cloaked in pseudoscience.
[snip]
Me:
) )As you probably also know, in any way seriously mistreating
) )children or other patients makes any licenced MD (including
) )anthroposophical MD:s who don't stop being MD:s when starting to
) )practice also anthroposophical medicine) very soon would make him or
) )her lose their licence.
Dan:
) There's hope there. Wasn't Anthropop author and Dr. Incao run out of
) New York State for unscientific practices? I think he's set up shop
) in the new Anthropop power center in Colorado.
See:
http://goodlight.net/vacexpert/pastprob.htm at
http://goodlight.net/vacexpert/
Dr Incao:
************************************************
I was investigated by the New York State Health Department in 1988 to
determine if there was any negligence in my treatment of patients. The
office was never shut down but 30 patient charts were confiscated and
examined for evidence of negligence. None was found and no charges
were ever brought. The whole case was quietly dropped without any
official statement of dismissal or exoneration. It was a "fishing
expedition" that came up with nothing. A friendly source within the
Health Department confided to me that my position on vaccinations was
the real impetus for the investigation.
************************************************
Me:
Personally I would not call what seems to have been a possible
harassment by authorities that lead to nothing very interesting as any
sort of 'proof' that anthroposophical MD:s in any general sense or in
any specific case having mistreated their patients in a way that would
be considered the basis for criticism or withdrawing their medical
license, which was what you implied by stating that you 'knew' that
anthroposophical MD:s consciously had sent kids with meningitis that
needed treatment to daycare, implying maybe you did not 'know' what
you said you knew ...?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.5 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Robert Jan Kelder
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:47:45 +0100
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Dan wrote commenting a letter from Robert Jan Kelder,
RJK:
) )Your
) )list of articles from Holland e.g. include none of the many articles and
) )booklets by anthroposophists reputing the politically correct attacks and
) )insinuations made here by incompetent journalists and would-be philosophers
) )against the integrity of R. Steiner,
Dan:
) Of course not. You have your own presses cranking your your
) propaganda.
I take this as you herewith stating that you do not to consider the
material on the site of PLANS as primarily informational material
reflecting the essence of anthroposophy and Waldorf education in any
basic sense, but propaganda material from an anti-anthroposophy and
anti-Waldorf perspective?
snip
) )That new article e.g. on A. and
) )ecofacism has so many errors, that it would be no use to enter into a
) )discussion with the author except to say that he should spend a couple of
) )more years doing serious research before venturing out into the open with
) )his marxist tainted heap of bias and materialistic half truths.
)
) One wouldn't expect the far right Anthropops to enjoy sniping from
) the left.
As you may have noted, Dan, 'Anthropops' can be found from the greater
part of the political field, from left to right with most of them
probably, I'd say, like in society in general, being aggregating
somewhere around the field in the middle. But you'd admittedly
probably find very few radical materialists among 'anthroposophists'
in some sense, even if Felix Hau (main editor of Info 3) recently
described his own religious view as close to the Atheist view.
) Is that "materialistic" the code word that used to mean
) Jewish?
Some punch below the belt. "Jewish" is the word Hitler used in the
'Völkischen Beobachter' when referring to Steiner's way of describing
the threefold nature of society in the tradition of the French
revolution as one of these "completely Jewish methods of destroying
the normal frame of mind of the peoples (Völker)".
(http://www.waldorfnet.de/Festschrift/Seite44.html)
snip
Dan:
) Sounds like a faction. I'm starting to see why other Anthropops might
) see you as a pain in the ass.
Daan, I thought your definite understanding was that all
'anthroposophists' were of one and the same 'party line' being reason
to complain about it. Now you complain when you meet one in the
spectrum who isn't. Fischy complaints;
swim to the left,
swim to the right,
what can I complain about?
- this time ... :-)
snip
Dan:
) What's "post-democratic"? Could you summarize for us?
In the tradition of the French revolution (freedom, equality,
brother/sisterhood) seeing the _primary_ cultivation of democracy is
limited to the life of the state, treating _all_ citizens on the basis
of our equality as humans in the election of our representatives for
the parliamentarian assemblies and the formulation of the laws
governing our basic human rights as citizens of the state to live a
dignified life, health, housing, safety, freedom of expression
independently of ethnicity, gender, spiritual views and possibility to
contribute to the production of goods and services.
Also, seeing that the development of cultural life can only be
democratic in as far as the right to contribute and take part in it
are concerned, but not in the sense of everyone having to behave in
basically the same way or having the same opinion or all cultural
institutions should be formed on the basis of the same world view ...,
but that 'freedom' (in 'production-expression' and 'consumption') is a
_more_ basic principle in cultural life than 'equality' in the form of
the content of cultural life being governed and decided on by
democratically elected bodies.
Also, seeing that neither primarily 'democracy' (example: 5-year plans
made by the state for production) nor primarily the unlimited
'freedom' for the strong individual to make money reducing other
people to tools and manipulated targets are defendable as the basic
principle for 'economy' in a human society, based on the respect for
the individual. A florishing economy in a good sense can only be built
on the principle of brother/sisterhood and cooperation, not primarily
on the principle of freedom of competition and exploitation or
something limited to national borders.
In Europe, economy is now being restructured according to the basic
principle of lifting out economy of the hands of nationally based
institutions, putting the basic regulation of it in the hand of the
European Commission in close cooperation with all the parties involved
in economy including workers, consumers and environmental interests,
and with somewhat increasing influence by the European Parliament, to
which all regulating motions by the Commission are referred for
discussion and possible veto, but still with an imbalance in favour of
financial interests/producers and trade (see
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/EU/euengoff.htm) in a sort of federative
way.
Legal life is being developed on a confederative basis slowly
developing and finding a functioning balance between te role of the
national parliaments and the European Parliament, and
one way of handling cultural life is the nomination of the capital of
one of the members (countires) of the Union each year to be the
'cultural capital of the year' of the Union, giving the country in
question the full stage for a specific year.
In the article (http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/EU/euengoff.htm) I
(have) tried to show how the "post-democratic" forms now developing as
the European Union during a specific period of European history - as I
see it - could be developed in a way more doing justice to its
underlying, implicit principles.
snip
) Factions again. Are you sure you want to wave this dirty laundry in public?
Dan, you have looked through a microscope for anything that you do not
consider to be 'white' areas in the cloth of anthroposophy, declaring
every day from morning to evening on this list to be 'laundry time'
for those by you considered 'not-white' spots.
For the background for Steiner's discussion of 'races' in the lecture
cycle in 1910 (discussed earlier here on the list), see the _general_
opinion in _US_ during the three decades from at least 1914-1944
http://www.tcsn.net/kcondron/kjcevol1.htm :
*****************************
The popular American high school biology textbook by Hunter, titled A
Civic Biology [1914], 69 in the section on evolution under the
subtitle 'The Races of Man', stated that
'at the present time there exists upon the earth five races or
varieties of man, each very different from the other in instinct,
social customs, and to an extent, in structure. '
The five races were then ranked from inferior to superior as follows:
'There are the Ethiopian or Negro type, originating in Africa; the
Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; the American
Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China,
Japan and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest type of all, the
Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe
and America.' 70
The textbook states that the 'highest' race is the Caucasians, who are
specifically 'higher' developed in terms of 'instincts, social
customs, and . . . [physical] structure.' 71 This book, widely
adopted by American public high schools for over 30 years ... [that is
from 1914 to after 1944, my comment S.N.]
****************************
That was what probably _the very great majority of Americans_ were
taught and thought through at least the whole first part of this
century, decades after Steiner died. Why not do some laundry on
_general American culture of the time_ and the views and opinions held
by hundreds of Millions of Americans through the greater part of this
century before discussing the culture at Waldorf schools in Europe?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.6 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Diana's (was Lisa's) views on race
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:07:10 GMT
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[Diana]
)The logic is that just because your race is "childish" or )"youthful"
)spiritually, you're not inferior?
[Terry]
)Did I say "childish" or "youthful" *spiritually*, Diana? No, I did )not.
)Please read more carefully.
Applied to *entire races* it's absurd and demeaning, whether you mean
"temperament" or "spirituality" -- this distinction doesn't change the
racial categorization you are defending.
[Terry]
)One can thus have a childlike (did I say childish, or did you )say )that?
)Childish and childlike have two very different meanings in )English)
)constitution or temperament and yet have a high spiritual )stature.
I am uncomfortable with your premise that you (or Steiner) have info. on who
has a "high" versus "low" spiritual status.
[Terry]
)no insult was intended )either to those of children, youth or )the
)elderly. I suggest rather that you consider whether it may be )that you
)yourself somehow regard children, youth or the elderly as )being inferior
)to the middle-aged.
It is not a question of being offended on behalf of children, youth, or
elderly. It is an objection to the ranking and categorizing according to
race, period. Not which groups come out looking good and which don't. The
whole system is bogus.
[Terry]
)The fact that blacks were described by him as having childlike )qualities
)means they are full of greater *life forces* than whites - )do you doubt
)that?
[Diana]
)Yes.
[Terry]
)May I ask why?
[Diana]
Sure you may ask, but I don't think it is likely we could come to any
understanding on such fundamentally different world views. Quantifying
peoples' life forces by race is meaningless.
[Terry]
)Have you ever been to Africa and experienced African vitality first )hand?
) (Obviously, I am not talking of those Africans who have )to struggle
)against poverty and disease)
[Diana]
)LOL! No I guess you're not talking about *those* Africans!
[Terry]
)I was talking about the ones in a normal condition of health,
)not those who are ill. Get a grip on yourself, will you?
Gripping tightly here - I was pointing out that generalizing about an entire
race's "life forces" is a little tricky, since whichever way you generalize
it will be easy to find comically blatant exceptions.
Generalizing about those "vital Africans" is really a humdinger.
[Terry]
)I have never been to Greece, but in our college, I have taught
)classfuls of Greeks, and I can tell you, on such occasions "I have )been
)to Greece - get it? I have also taught mixed classes of say, )Greeks and
)Chinese. In such classes there were two very distinct )atmospheres, two
)very distinct temperaments. Such situations can )become opportunities for
)anthropological understanding.
Anthropological understanding would be very different from drawing
conclusions about an entire race or ethnic group's "temperament," let alone
their spiritual "status." We are not discussing your "anthropological
understanding," Terry.
[Diana]
)Did it ever occur to you that if there are indeed any "meanings" to )racial
)"differentiation," they aren't for you to know?
[Terry]
)What kind of mystification is this? What kind of neo-Kantian
) )ignorabimus-like "thinking" is this? Do you realise what you have )just
)written, Diana?
Yes, I have written that you don't know everything, Terry, Steiner didn't
know everything, and I don't know everything, and there just may be things
we *can't* know. I'm sure it is reassuring to think that if there's
something you don't know, you can just look it up in Steiner, but it doesn't
work for me.
)If there's a master plan, maybe you (and Steiner) aren't in on it?
)ditto last comment above
Ditto my last comment above. You do feel you're in on the master plan,
Terry? Okay.
[Diana]
)Claims to understand any such meanings, if they exist, are )preposterous.
)Let's forget dangerous, or offensive, or any of that: )they are absurd.
[Terry]
)Voila the voice of unreason that has resounded down the centuries!
)The voice from the pulpit. Thou shalt not think, and especially thou )shalt
)not think about what is unmentionable.
You may think and speak about whatever you like, and if I'm listening I will
feel free to tell you when I think your comments are racist and offensive,
and why.
[back to spiritual game-show trivia]
)Why, for you, do those of East Asian origin, and only they have the )eyes
)they do? Why do they have the Mongolian Spot? etc.etc.
)First, who is making anything up? The northeast Asian eye fold -
)do Africans have them?
Steiner made up the *meanings* attached to these, Terry, not the eye folds
or Mongolian spots, whatever they are.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.7 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: Brief Comments on Recent Events
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:33:48 -0600
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My wife, who teaches first grade in a "baby" Waldorf school, gives her kids
both block and stick crayons and encourages them to use them in all ways -
exploring shading and lines. They even have black and brown stick crayons. In
her experience, kids who are disturbed and frustrated already are more likely to
scratch their wet on wet watercolors, and kids who watch more TV use more
outlines in their drawings.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.8 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:51:47 -0500
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charset="iso-8859-1"
[Dan Dugan]
) I've just checked ListQuest, who is archiving this mailing list. I
) tried a search and it seems to be working well. Check it out:
)
) http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=waldorfcritics
)
[Bob Tolz]
It looks pretty good. It looks like the earliest they've gone back
to might be December, 1999. Do you expect them to index earlier than that?
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.9 ---------------
From: Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net)
Subject: Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:48:22 +0100
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In-Reply-To: (200003200141.RAA07887 lists1.best.com)
Alan Fine wrote:
) Of course we are talking about Persia here. In a theosophical light, the
) battle would have a spiritual meaning, a victory of theJews, the forces of
) the Moon and Ahriman over the Aryans, the force of Light, Ahura Mazda. How
) important was this stuff to the Nazis?
Whom are you talking about? Rosenberg? Blavatsky? Steiner?
Perhaps Streicher had this view, and Rosenberg, too, but their
interpretation has nothing in common either with the factual Persian/Jewish
encounter in history, nor with Rudolf Steiners point of view which is
exactly the opposite.
When you quote from Rosenberg, ok. But you know that Hitler called
Rosenberg's book already in 1929 "incomprehensible", he said that he read
only a small part of it, and that even the title of the book was wrong,
because Nazism was not about the "Myth of the 20th c.", but about "Faith and
Knowledge" of the 20th c., overcoming the Myth of the 19th c., that is
religion and irrationalism. Rosenberg noted in his diary on Feb 2, 1940
after a conversation with Hitler, that he was surprised by the "positivist
approach" of the latter. Hitler had stated that Nazism must deduce its
"abstract inner logic" from "exact scientific research".
On the other hand, Steiner never identified the "Moon" with "Ahriman".
Steiner was not Rosenberg, n